RunsWithWolves26 said:

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IseWolf22 said:

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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statefan91 said:

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ncsualum05 said:

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GuerrillaPack said:

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104 shot, 14 fatally, over Father's Day weekend in Chicago
https://www.fox5dc.com/news/104-shot-14-fatally-over-fathers-day-weekend-in-chicago


Ho hum. No "protests" (ie, rioting) over this. Because it doesn't fit the narrative of the Leftist Establishment media, BLM, Antifa, and their many Leftist allies in universities/companies/etc -- ie, to foment racial tension and a Leftist cultural revolution for the overthrow of the "racist white power structure".

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BLM is about a lot of things but black lives is not one of them.

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Sorry, I think I missed in the article where it said how many of those shot / were shooting were black.

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I know one was a 6th grade black girl and one was a 3 year old black boy who are both shot to death. If I can find any other information on it today, I will post it here. I know it's not a complete total but I would think a 6th grader and a 3 year old would be cause for protest but maybe I'm just not thinking the way the true, BLM people do

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Again, violence committed by random criminals vs. violence committed by the state (police officers) who are supposed to serve constitutions and keep communities safe.

The first is a complex interaction of education, economic opportunity, violent culture, and other social factors. Social workers and community leaders have been working on this for decades, but no one in the world has an exact formula to stamp out crime.

The second is a result of agents of the state. The state is ultimately subject to the will of its people and protesting is an effective means to ask leaders to make changes. Marching through the street probably won't make the random dealer decide to go back to school, but it can make a local or state government make reforms (chokehold bans, records transparency, disciplinary proceedings that aren't constantly overturned by the union).

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So some lives matter and others don't. Makes sense actually considering how bent out if shape BLM people get when you say all lives matter. It's obviously true that all lives don't matter. Just the ones that are seen as mattering.

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statefan91 said:

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I think it just goes to where your passion and interest are. These protesters think that they can have the most impact on the most people be protesting the violence of the State against them.

Some people protest against Hunger because they think they can have an impact and that's what they care about. Some people protest against Abortion because they think they can have an impact and that's what they care about. If we want to say "all lives matter," then shouldn't those protesting the abortion clinic also be out protesting the death of black men, and the death of children being held at the border?

It's not prerogative to tell people how or what to protest. I don't have to support them either.

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packgrad said:

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statefan91 said:

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I think it just goes to where your passion and interest are. These protesters think that they can have the most impact on the most people be protesting the violence of the State against them.

Some people protest against Hunger because they think they can have an impact and that's what they care about. Some people protest against Abortion because they think they can have an impact and that's what they care about. If we want to say "all lives matter," then shouldn't those protesting the abortion clinic also be out protesting the death of black men, and the death of children being held at the border?

It's not prerogative to tell people how or what to protest. I don't have to support them either.

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Have you contacted abortion clinic protesters to ask why they are not protesting the death of black men?

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packgrad said:

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statefan91 said:

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I think it just goes to where your passion and interest are. These protesters think that they can have the most impact on the most people be protesting the violence of the State against them.

Some people protest against Hunger because they think they can have an impact and that's what they care about. Some people protest against Abortion because they think they can have an impact and that's what they care about. If we want to say "all lives matter," then shouldn't those protesting the abortion clinic also be out protesting the death of black men, and the death of children being held at the border?

It's not my prerogative to tell people how or what to protest. I don't have to support them either.

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Have you contacted abortion clinic protesters to ask why they are not protesting the death of black men?

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IseWolf22 said:

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Again, violence committed by random criminals vs. violence committed by the state (police officers) who are supposed to serve constitutions and keep communities safe.

The first is a complex interaction of education, economic opportunity, violent culture, and other social factors. Social workers and community leaders have been working on this for decades, but no one in the world has an exact formula to stamp out crime.

The second is a result of agents of the state. The state is ultimately subject to the will of its people and protesting is an effective means to ask leaders to make changes. Marching through the street probably won't make the random dealer decide to go back to school, but it can make a local or state government make reforms (chokehold bans, records transparency, disciplinary proceedings that aren't constantly overturned by the union).

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IseWolf22 said:

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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IseWolf22 said:

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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statefan91 said:

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ncsualum05 said:

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GuerrillaPack said:

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104 shot, 14 fatally, over Father's Day weekend in Chicago
https://www.fox5dc.com/news/104-shot-14-fatally-over-fathers-day-weekend-in-chicago


Ho hum. No "protests" (ie, rioting) over this. Because it doesn't fit the narrative of the Leftist Establishment media, BLM, Antifa, and their many Leftist allies in universities/companies/etc -- ie, to foment racial tension and a Leftist cultural revolution for the overthrow of the "racist white power structure".

---

BLM is about a lot of things but black lives is not one of them.

---

Sorry, I think I missed in the article where it said how many of those shot / were shooting were black.

---

I know one was a 6th grade black girl and one was a 3 year old black boy who are both shot to death. If I can find any other information on it today, I will post it here. I know it's not a complete total but I would think a 6th grader and a 3 year old would be cause for protest but maybe I'm just not thinking the way the true, BLM people do

---

Again, violence committed by random criminals vs. violence committed by the state (police officers) who are supposed to serve constitutions and keep communities safe.

The first is a complex interaction of education, economic opportunity, violent culture, and other social factors. Social workers and community leaders have been working on this for decades, but no one in the world has an exact formula to stamp out crime.

The second is a result of agents of the state. The state is ultimately subject to the will of its people and protesting is an effective means to ask leaders to make changes. Marching through the street probably won't make the random dealer decide to go back to school, but it can make a local or state government make reforms (chokehold bans, records transparency, disciplinary proceedings that aren't constantly overturned by the union).

---

So some lives matter and others don't. Makes sense actually considering how bent out if shape BLM people get when you say all lives matter. It's obviously true that all lives don't matter. Just the ones that are seen as mattering.

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Good deflection there

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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IseWolf22 said:

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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IseWolf22 said:

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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statefan91 said:

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ncsualum05 said:

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GuerrillaPack said:

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104 shot, 14 fatally, over Father's Day weekend in Chicago
https://www.fox5dc.com/news/104-shot-14-fatally-over-fathers-day-weekend-in-chicago


Ho hum. No "protests" (ie, rioting) over this. Because it doesn't fit the narrative of the Leftist Establishment media, BLM, Antifa, and their many Leftist allies in universities/companies/etc -- ie, to foment racial tension and a Leftist cultural revolution for the overthrow of the "racist white power structure".

---

BLM is about a lot of things but black lives is not one of them.

---

Sorry, I think I missed in the article where it said how many of those shot / were shooting were black.

---

I know one was a 6th grade black girl and one was a 3 year old black boy who are both shot to death. If I can find any other information on it today, I will post it here. I know it's not a complete total but I would think a 6th grader and a 3 year old would be cause for protest but maybe I'm just not thinking the way the true, BLM people do

---

Again, violence committed by random criminals vs. violence committed by the state (police officers) who are supposed to serve constitutions and keep communities safe.

The first is a complex interaction of education, economic opportunity, violent culture, and other social factors. Social workers and community leaders have been working on this for decades, but no one in the world has an exact formula to stamp out crime.

The second is a result of agents of the state. The state is ultimately subject to the will of its people and protesting is an effective means to ask leaders to make changes. Marching through the street probably won't make the random dealer decide to go back to school, but it can make a local or state government make reforms (chokehold bans, records transparency, disciplinary proceedings that aren't constantly overturned by the union).

---

So some lives matter and others don't. Makes sense actually considering how bent out if shape BLM people get when you say all lives matter. It's obviously true that all lives don't matter. Just the ones that are seen as mattering.

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Good deflection there

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No deflection but say what you want to. Not a single word from anyone about the deaths of these two black lives but hell, let's burn cities down because a bad cop did something. You can call it deflection if you would like to. Some lives matter and some don't. The BLM movement and the protesters pick what they want and ignore the rest. I've been on record as saying what happen to George Floyd was wrong. I damn sure don't think his life matters.mkre then two innocent kids who were murdered. I don't think their lives matter more then his. If black lives matter, then where are the protest for these two kids? It's always hard to look at your own house and fix it. It's much easier to find a scapegoat and go hell on wheels crazy about that. Then again, call it deflection. I call deflection finding reasons and excuses to validate one black life mattering and burning cities down because of it and ignoring the others that died because, you guessed it, another black person killed a black person. Let's make sure we don't focus on that. That doesn't move the needle enough for people.

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Pacfanweb said:

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I think the disconnect here is that many people think that the outrage over police issues...which are a very, very small part of the whole picture, is way out of proportion in comparison to other things black people die from.

If you listen to what the media is telling us, you would think that the police are out slaughtering black people on a daily basis. Fact of the matter is, there are just as many controversial incidents involving white people... You just don't see them get reported very much. And you certainly don't see riots and protests over them.

Most people realize that these incidents are really barely even a drop in the bucket compared to all other crime. But for whatever reason people are ridiculously outraged over something that is relatively insignificant.

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Civilized said:

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Around 2.5 million people died in the US in 2001. 'Only' 2,700 of those died in the WTC attacks.

We started a ****ing war over it.

Why were Americans so outraged and devastated and willing to go to war because of that 'relatively insignificant' event?

Every year there over 15,000 American-on-American murders. Should we not have attempted to pursue justice for that attack until we got our house in order, and stopped killing each other?

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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IseWolf22 said:

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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IseWolf22 said:

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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IseWolf22 said:

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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statefan91 said:

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ncsualum05 said:

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GuerrillaPack said:

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104 shot, 14 fatally, over Father's Day weekend in Chicago
https://www.fox5dc.com/news/104-shot-14-fatally-over-fathers-day-weekend-in-chicago


Ho hum. No "protests" (ie, rioting) over this. Because it doesn't fit the narrative of the Leftist Establishment media, BLM, Antifa, and their many Leftist allies in universities/companies/etc -- ie, to foment racial tension and a Leftist cultural revolution for the overthrow of the "racist white power structure".

---

BLM is about a lot of things but black lives is not one of them.

---

Sorry, I think I missed in the article where it said how many of those shot / were shooting were black.

---

I know one was a 6th grade black girl and one was a 3 year old black boy who are both shot to death. If I can find any other information on it today, I will post it here. I know it's not a complete total but I would think a 6th grader and a 3 year old would be cause for protest but maybe I'm just not thinking the way the true, BLM people do

---

Again, violence committed by random criminals vs. violence committed by the state (police officers) who are supposed to serve constitutions and keep communities safe.

The first is a complex interaction of education, economic opportunity, violent culture, and other social factors. Social workers and community leaders have been working on this for decades, but no one in the world has an exact formula to stamp out crime.

The second is a result of agents of the state. The state is ultimately subject to the will of its people and protesting is an effective means to ask leaders to make changes. Marching through the street probably won't make the random dealer decide to go back to school, but it can make a local or state government make reforms (chokehold bans, records transparency, disciplinary proceedings that aren't constantly overturned by the union).

---

So some lives matter and others don't. Makes sense actually considering how bent out if shape BLM people get when you say all lives matter. It's obviously true that all lives don't matter. Just the ones that are seen as mattering.

---

Good deflection there

---

No deflection but say what you want to. Not a single word from anyone about the deaths of these two black lives but hell, let's burn cities down because a bad cop did something. You can call it deflection if you would like to. Some lives matter and some don't. The BLM movement and the protesters pick what they want and ignore the rest. I've been on record as saying what happen to George Floyd was wrong. I damn sure don't think his life matters.mkre then two innocent kids who were murdered. I don't think their lives matter more then his. If black lives matter, then where are the protest for these two kids? It's always hard to look at your own house and fix it. It's much easier to find a scapegoat and go hell on wheels crazy about that. Then again, call it deflection. I call deflection finding reasons and excuses to validate one black life mattering and burning cities down because of it and ignoring the others that died because, you guessed it, another black person killed a black person. Let's make sure we don't focus on that. That doesn't move the needle enough for people.

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If you are implying that black people as a whole must stop violent crime before they can complain about police brutality then there is never going to be common ground. It's an absurd expectation and a law abiding black man is not responsible for his race as a whole. Again, people have been trying to fix violence in Chicago for decades, but it's not an easy solution.

Each life matters, but there is a direct call to action when your own government has killed a citizen without cause. Between laws that shield police records, union appeal processes, and Qualified Immunity, there is a very real feeling that when an officer kills someone unnecessarily, they will not be punished without a media uproar. This accountability gap can be fixed with policy and that is the major reason these protests started. The people marching dont believe anyone will be punished if they stay home.

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And law abiding law enforcement is not responsible for their profession as a whole but damn if many people ain't protesting and calling all cops terrible, worthless, defund them, threatening them, etc. Works both ways. Don't start a movement that only cares about certain lives when at the same time, saying you can't blame a law abiding black man for his race but you blame every single damn law enforcement officer for one bad cop. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

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acslater1344 said:

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^ Bud this whole damn conversation has been off the rails for several pages now

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acslater1344 said:

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^ Bud this whole damn conversation has been off the rails for several pages now

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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You just compared an average of 9 deaths per year to the killing of 2,000+ American lives by terrorist? You've been steadfast in your opinion only mattering but with that example, you've truly gone off the rails.

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FlossyDFlynt said:

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Holy christ, did you really just call 9/11 an insignificant event? I guess Pearl Harbor was insignificant in your eyes as well

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Civilized said:

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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You just compared an average of 9 deaths per year to the killing of 2,000+ American lives by terrorist? You've been steadfast in your opinion only mattering but with that example, you've truly gone off the rails.

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I used a relatively small number of deaths to illustrate the outsize emotional and behavioral impact that some deaths have, depending on circumstances.

Evidently, now we're down to only counting 9 deaths of the 200+ deaths per year of blacks at the hands of cops? LOL, pretty soon we're only going to count killings where the cop is chewing gum and rubbing his belly when he fires his service weapon.

This is not just about killing either; there are other types of unnecessary violence police can inflict. Police are much more likely (currently 3.5x more likely) to use violence against blacks than whites, which has been the case as long as there were police and black people in this country. The sad thing is that it's probably getting better and it's still awful. Think about how bad it was in preceding generations if it's still this bad today.

Again, police are much more likely AS A PROPORTION OF OVERALL ENCOUNTERS to inflict violence on blacks. That controls for criminality (really, more like over-policing). You can't just say, "oh but blacks interact with police more." This controls for that. All that comes out in the wash.

Blacks in America (and many of other ethnicities including whites) are tired of outcomes at every turn (health, wealth, criminal justice, mobility, education) that trail other ethnicities.

That's what's being protested.

George Floyd was truly tragic, and never should have happened. But this is so much bigger than that. This was never just about George Floyd.

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Pacfanweb said:

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Civilized said:

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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You just compared an average of 9 deaths per year to the killing of 2,000+ American lives by terrorist? You've been steadfast in your opinion only mattering but with that example, you've truly gone off the rails.

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Evidently, now we're down to only counting 9 deaths of the 200+ deaths per year of blacks at the hands of cops? LOL, pretty soon we're only going to count killings where the cop is chewing gum and rubbing his belly when he fires his service weapon.

This is not just about killing either; there are other types of unnecessary violence police can inflict. Police are much more likely (currently 3.5x more likely) to use violence against blacks than whites, which has been the case as long as there were police and black people in this country. The sad thing is that it's probably getting better and it's still awful. Think about how bad it was in preceding generations if it's still this bad today.

Again, police are much more likely AS A PROPORTION OF OVERALL ENCOUNTERS to inflict violence on blacks. That controls for criminality (really, more like over-policing). You can't just say, "oh but blacks interact with police more." This controls for that. All that comes out in the wash.

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I got what you were trying to say. It wasn't a good example, but I did get your point.

Regarding the 200-ish deaths of blacks at the hands of police: The overwhelming majority of those, there's nothing wrong with what happened. A criminal defied the police or threatened them in one way or another, ends up getting shot.
Same with the 400-ish whites that are killed by police.

Happens to everyone. But since blacks are more likely to be violent criminals, yeah...it does happen to them more.

You say police are "3.5x more likely to use violence against blacks".

Okay, but blacks are considerably more likely to be violent criminals in the first place, so it stands to reason that their encounters with police turn violent at a higher rate. You can absolutely say that "oh, blacks interact with police more".

It doesn't matter how many times you interact with police, it matters WHY you're interacting with police. That's what you are missing.

White people might be less likely to have their encounters go poorly and turn violent...but that's because they have a hell of a lot more "less severe crime" interactions with police. Sex offenses. Drug Abuse violations. DUI's. Liquor laws. Drunkenness.

Lesser crimes. Cops see a lot more, as a percentage, blacks for the big stuff like murder/manslaughter, robbery, assault. Crimes that violence is a bit more associated with.

Again:
Violent Crime 2017:

Total: 404,236

White: 236,590 58%
Black: 151,244 37%

And again:
US Population Percentages:

White: 60.4%
Black: 13.4%

See the issue? Blacks commit violent crime at almost 3X their percentage of the population, and whites do it at less than their %.

You can't just say "there are X police encounter with this race with X of them ending violently, vs the numbers for another race.

You have to consider WHAT the encounters are for. Like most everything else, an interaction with police is not an interaction with police is not an interaction with police.

Context matters.

In this same year, 2017, I have listed:
Death from Police:

White: 457 46% of those killed by police
Black: 223 22.5% of those killed by police

So whites, 60.4% of the population, committed 58% of violent crime, and were 46% of police killings.

Blacks, 13.4% of the population, committed 37% of violent crime, and were 22.5% of police killings.

I'm not seeing the problem here...at least, not specifically towards blacks. If you want to say the police should kill less people, period? Then I can get behind that. But if you look into the evidence fairly and honestly, you'll find that based on the type of encounters blacks tend to have with police compared to whites, they are not unfairly killed or experience violence at the hands of the cops. Not anymore than whites are.

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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Great write up but sadly, your intended audience doesn't care.

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Civilized said:

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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Great write up but sadly, your intended audience doesn't care.

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You're conflating 'not caring' with 'not agreeing'.

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Civilized said:

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I didn't quote you just because of the length of your post. To be clear, I agree with you that blacks are convicted of more crime and of more violent crime per capita than whites.

That's actually an illustration of many other problems. Those problems do include too much gang, drug, and gun violence, many of which are endemic in poor communities. I acknowledge this.

But importantly, being convicted of crime is not the same as committing crime and when you're over-policed, arrested more, charged more, more often represented by public defenders, less likely to have a jury of your peers, more likely to be a victim of implicit jury bias, your conviction numbers as a race of people go up relative to other races.

We need to police communities of color less, provide more outreach and counseling (some by law enforcement, some by community social workers, job and vocation counselors), train police more on eliminating implicit bias, train police more on conflict deescalation, move towards more blind charging by prosecutors where prosecutors don't know the race of the accused prior to deciding whether to move forward with charges, and work to eliminate jury selection procedures that encourage disproportionate elimination of black jurors from jury pools.

What I'd find persuasive from you or others that feel similarly to you is to find studies that indicate that over-policing doesn't occur; that whites get pulled and arrested at the same rate as blacks; that whites and blacks get charged at roughly the same rate when they have comparable evidence against them; that juries don't have more black jurors than white jurors removed; or that white jurors don't vote to convict black defendants more often and for more series crimes than black jurors do. All those things drive up the number of black criminals.

Basically, provide empirical evidence that what I'm saying is wrong about the many factors that drive up convictions of black defendants.

The black community in this country has challenges to grapple with, they don't need systemic bias against them in policing, prosecuting, and imprisoning to overcome too. White people don't deal with any of that race-based bias in our policing and criminal justice system.

And you're right, police kill too many people, including too many black people. They're the pros; they are state actors; and they are held to a higher standard. De-escalation training works. Use it!

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