Progressive gay senator attacked for filming rioters.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/24/madison-police-protest-senator/

statefan91 said:

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Assume these cops were just bad apples and none of the people they previously arrested were targeted because they were black...

" "Piner tells Moore later in the conversation that he feels a civil war is coming and he is 'ready.' Piner advised he is going to buy a new assault rifle in the next couple of weeks. A short time later Officer Piner began to discuss society being close to 'martial law' and soon 'we are just gonna go out and start slaughtering them ****ing ni. I can't wait. God, I can't wait.' Moore responded that he would not do that."

https://portcitydaily.com/local-news/2020/06/24/fired-wilmington-cop-we-are-just-going-to-go-out-and-start-slaughtering-them-f-ni-i-cant-wait-god-i-cant-wait-free-read/?fbclid=IwAR2rQ5D5Fyq6qgTRpdU6clh8a_7iOY_AUDe76SvfMAxywUnUPZVnoGzVVgM

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That is awful

These are such wonderful exercises in futility. Not a single view point will be changed. Reminds me of my constant arguments on FB in the past with my long time friend who doesn't share my political views. But it's interesting reading for sure.

This is the same department that shot a kid dead over an X-Box.

The racial problems in Wilmington, NHC are legendary.

Mormad said:

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These are such wonderful exercises in futility. Not a single view point will be changed. Reminds me of my constant arguments on FB in the past with my long time friend who doesn't share my political views. But it's interesting reading for sure.

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That's arguing on the internet 101

Disclaimer: The following questions and thoughts are in no way an allegation that any type of resistance was involved in the death of George Floyd. I didn't know what thread to put this on. Fits more with the Atlanta death.

I have seen many proposals and ideas on police reform the last few weeks. One thing I haven't seen is perhaps much stronger penalties for suspects that violently resist arrest.

I don't even know the current penalty for resisting arrest. Is it a felony? Should it be a felony? Should a mandatory jail sentence be imposed on those that resist during an arrest no matter the alleged crime that ensued the arrest attempt?

Any attempt to strengthen the law would require mandatory body cams for every officer. Of course, for everyone involved, mandatory body cams would benefit all involved. This added cost would have to be offset with higher taxes or budget cuts. I think we know which option the politicians will likely choose.

As you can see this isn't an easy attempted solution to help these arrests from escalating into tragic events.

Yea or nay on lawmakers debating this possible reform?

BLM they say....

Joel Berry (Former UNC PG) being cancelled as we speak.

The cops who killed Tony Timpa were granted Qualified Immunity.

https://reason.com/2020/07/09/dallas-cops-who-joked-about-pinning-a-man-to-the-ground-until-he-stopped-breathing-get-qualified-immunity/

IseWolf22 said:

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The cops who killed Tony Timpa were granted Qualified Immunity.

https://reason.com/2020/07/09/dallas-cops-who-joked-about-pinning-a-man-to-the-ground-until-he-stopped-breathing-get-qualified-immunity/

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I think people on both sides of the aisle can agree that qualified immunity needs to end

100%.

packgrad said:

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https://reason.com/2020/08/04/leaked-footage-shows-aggressive-cops-terrifying-george-floyd-in-his-last-minutes-before-death/

IseWolf22 said:

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packgrad said:

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https://reason.com/2020/08/04/leaked-footage-shows-aggressive-cops-terrifying-george-floyd-in-his-last-minutes-before-death/

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" She's savvy enough not to point out that Lane had pointed a gun directly at his head and was talking to Floyd as though he were a carjacker, not a police officer."

You subscribe to the carjacker theory?"


" it's even more clear that none of Floyd's responses to the officers merited their aggression"

Lol. Godalmighty. At least they don't try to pretend to be objective.

So....now that the coroner's report is out, plus the police body cam video that shows Floyd was resisting:

I'm guessing the cops are going to be found not guilty (overcharged) and there will be more riots?

For those who have not read it, Floyd had both meth and fentanyl in his system at the time of death, and died of a heart attack.

Still shouldn't have been kneeling on his neck, but that isn't what killed him. He was talking to the cops the whole time, and obviously could breathe.

https://nypost.com/2020/08/13/chicago-looters-smash-ronald-mcdonald-house-with-sick-kids-inside/

Bend the knee, white people.

McGruff the Crime Dog put down....


https://babylonbee.com/news/mcgruff-the-crime-dog-put-down/

Would love Mormad or anyone else knowledgeable to analyze these numbers from George Floyd's toxicology and post mortem report:

A. Blood drug and novel psychoactive substances screens:

1. Fentanyl 11 ng/mL

2. Norfentanyl 5.6 ng/mL

3. 4-ANPP 0.65 ng/mL

4. Methamphetamine 19 ng/mL

Now I tried some searching, and I found a study about Fentanyl overdoses that said this:
"therapeutic range for analgesia = 0.63.0 ng/mL"
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/66/wr/mm6604a4.htm

It also had as one of its examples of someone who died of a Fentanyl OD with the exact same amount
that Floyd had. I actually found it by highlighting that number in Floyd's toxicology report and searching. It's a CDC report.
The patient in the report was "Patient E", and the report said this about that person:

"Postmortem toxicology screens identified fentanyl as a cause of death for patients E and I, both of whom arrived in the ED in cardiac arrest."

So am I reading that correctly, that 11 ng/ml is WAY higher than the range Fentanyl is administered by doctors?


More in his report:

"CARDIOVASCULAR SYSTEM: The 540 g heart (upper limit of normal for body length is 510 g; upper limit of normal for body weight is 521 g)1 is contained in an intact pericardial sac. The epicardial surface is smooth, with modest fat investment. The coronary arteries are present in a normal distribution, with a right dominant pattern. Cross sections of the vessels show multifocal atherosclerosis, with 75% proximal and 75% mid narrowing of the left anterior descending coronary artery; 75% proximal narrowing of the 1st diagonal branch of the left anterior descending coronary artery; 25% proximal narrowing of the circumflex coronary artery; and 90% proximal narrowing of the right coronary artery. "

So dude had serious heart disease, was acting erratically, someone watching even said he seemed to be having a heart attack, and he was saying he couldn't breathe long before he was ever on the ground.

Seems to me he was OD's on Fentanyl and the stress combined with his restricted arteries and overall health gave him a heart attack.

Am I wrong? I can't find anything definitive online. All the sources seem biased one way or the other, but the data seems pretty clear to me, although I'd still love some medical opinions here.

Here's the autopsy report:
https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/floyd-autopsy-6-3-20.pdf

Pacfanweb said:

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SupplyChainPack said:

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Sounds like maybe he wouldn't have died that day without the police interaction, but even moreso he wouldn't have died if he hadn't done all of these things to himself beforehand.

If you have a bad heart, and if you decide to load yourself up with illegal drugs, it's probably a good idea not to add additional crimes on top of that. And it's definitely not a good idea to then resist arrest like a rabid bull.

Very poor decision making for his part from beginning to end.

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Given the evidence in the coroner's report, and now the body cam audio, I think he might have died anyway.

He was already saying he couldn't breathe while he was standing up. Didn't want to get in the cop car. Cop offered to roll the windows down and/or turn the A/C on, he refused. He was talking to them the whole time he was on the ground, until he had the heart attack, so he clearly wasn't being choked.
They were concerned for him and had already called for an ambulance as well before he was down.

I don't see anything the cop did or could have done that caused his heart attack, other than the fact that it's stressful to be arrested in the first place. Even a bystander was telling him to calm down or he was going to have a heart attack.

It LOOKED bad, the pic that we all saw and were initially outraged over....but it actually wasn't that way.

The problem is going to come at trial time. The cop was charged with 2nd degree murder. That was a knee jerk reaction to the media coverage. Should have never been done until they had all the evidence.

He's not going to be convicted of any type of murder, because he didn't murder the guy. And I suspect that most folks who would tend to be outraged by this type of thing aren't going to look at the evidence and see what the truth is, and more riots will ensue.

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There is a good argument to be made that this is manslaughter, not murder. I've read that this particular jurisdiction allows the jury to rule on a lower level of criminality than the original charge, but can't verify that. I hope it's true, because yes this will muddy the waters enough that 2nd degree murder will be hard to sell most of the jury.
However, the officers absolutely did not act appropriately. Floyd's neck was compressed long after he was unresponsive and clearly in need of emergency care. Multiple people tried to intervene and ask that they check his pulse and were rebuffed. If a perp is suspected to be on drugs and complaining about not being able to breath, that's a clear indicator to not restrict their airflow.

^ True, the cop is not without blame at all. However there was nothing in the autopsy to indicate his airflow was ever restricted. He was saying he couldn't breathe while he was still standing. He said it the whole time until he had a heart attack and died. So he obviously could breathe... You can't talk if you can't breathe or if you're being choked.
Autopsy also found no damage or bruising or anything done to his neck. So there was no abnormal compression or anything done there, either

So no, the cop shouldn't have been on him like that and he probably did stay on him too long, and there will be some sort of appropriate charges for that... But second degree murder is not appropriate. Murder implies that it was intentional and there's nothing to indicate that was the case.
And the bottom line is, the race of either party had nothing to do with what happened.

IseWolf22 said:

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There is a good argument to be made that this is manslaughter, not murder. I've read that this particular jurisdiction allows the jury to rule on a lower level of criminality than the original charge, but can't verify that. I hope it's true, because yes this will muddy the waters enough that 2nd degree murder will be hard to sell most of the jury.
However, the officers absolutely did not act appropriately. Floyd's neck was compressed long after he was unresponsive and clearly in need of emergency care. Multiple people tried to intervene and ask that they check his pulse and were rebuffed. If a perp is suspected to be on drugs and complaining about not being able to breath, that's a clear indicator to not restrict their airflow.

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Doesn't the prosecutor have the authority to amend or reduce charges between initial charges and the trial if new evidence comes to light?

The case for second degree murder always felt shaky because of the difficulty of proving intent in this case. It's never seemed like there was evidence he was trying to kill George Floyd, just that his reckless actions directly led to Floyd's death.

Voluntary manslaughter or negligent homicide seemed more appropriate from the jump.

Pacfanweb said:

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^ True, the cop is not without blame at all. However there was nothing in the autopsy to indicate his airflow was ever restricted. He was saying he couldn't breathe while he was still standing. He said it the whole time until he had a heart attack and died. So he obviously could breathe... You can't talk if you can't breathe or if you're being choked.
Autopsy also found no damage or bruising or anything done to his neck. So there was no abnormal compression or anything done there, either

So no, the cop shouldn't have been on him like that and he probably did stay on him too long, and there will be some sort of appropriate charges for that... But second degree murder is not appropriate. Murder implies that it was intentional and there's nothing to indicate that was the case.
And the bottom line is, the race of either party had nothing to do with what happened.

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Unfortunately this is the point that is going to be lost....

Pacfanweb said:

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^ True, the cop is not without blame at all. However there was nothing in the autopsy to indicate his airflow was ever restricted. He was saying he couldn't breathe while he was still standing. He said it the whole time until he had a heart attack and died. So he obviously could breathe... You can't talk if you can't breathe or if you're being choked.
Autopsy also found no damage or bruising or anything done to his neck. So there was no abnormal compression or anything done there, either

So no, the cop shouldn't have been on him like that and he probably did stay on him too long, and there will be some sort of appropriate charges for that... But second degree murder is not appropriate. Murder implies that it was intentional and there's nothing to indicate that was the case.
And the bottom line is, the race of either party had nothing to do with what happened.

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Can you give some examples of when the respective races of the police officer and perp are an indication race played a part in the killing?

I'm trying to get clear on how you identify such things.

Pacfanweb said:

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^ True, the cop is not without blame at all. However there was nothing in the autopsy to indicate his airflow was ever restricted. He was saying he couldn't breathe while he was still standing. He said it the whole time until he had a heart attack and died. So he obviously could breathe... You can't talk if you can't breathe or if you're being choked.
Autopsy also found no damage or bruising or anything done to his neck. So there was no abnormal compression or anything done there, either

So no, the cop shouldn't have been on him like that and he probably did stay on him too long, and there will be some sort of appropriate charges for that... But second degree murder is not appropriate. Murder implies that it was intentional and there's nothing to indicate that was the case.
And the bottom line is, the race of either party had nothing to do with what happened.

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The bold statement is not true. You can talk while your carotid artery is being compressed. Air is still able to enter your lungs but it cannot get to your brain. People can and do talk while in sleeper holds. And it doesn't take a large amount of pressure to do this. If you ever watch Jui-jitsu, sleeper holds can be used without causing lasting bruising or damage to the neck. They just release the hold much sooner than 8 minutes.
Him saying he couldn't breath while standing is just another sign that he shouldn't be held face down or have his carotid artery compressed. He was maybe having a panic attack, maybe it was the drugs, maybe a little bit of both. The autopsy called it a homicide. They don't use that word for an overdose.

As for race, I've talked very little about it. I believe Police in the US need major reform regardless. Real de-escalation attempts should be made before force is considered. Less force should be used. Less people should die. Police should be held accountable when they abuse their position and Qualified Immunity should be abolished. And to cap it all off, less offenses should be criminalized.

IseWolf22 said:

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As for race, I've talked very little about it. I believe Police in the US need major reform regardless. Real de-escalation attempts should be made before force is considered. Less force should be used. Less people should die. Police should be held accountable when they abuse their position and Qualified Immunity should be abolished. And to cap it all off, less offenses should be criminalized.

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Agree completely.

These reforms are absolute no-brainers and should theoretically have broad support on both sides of the aisle, although I'm sure we'll find a way to infuse them with partisanship.

IseWolf22 said:

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Pacfanweb said:

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^ True, the cop is not without blame at all. However there was nothing in the autopsy to indicate his airflow was ever restricted. He was saying he couldn't breathe while he was still standing. He said it the whole time until he had a heart attack and died. So he obviously could breathe... You can't talk if you can't breathe or if you're being choked.
Autopsy also found no damage or bruising or anything done to his neck. So there was no abnormal compression or anything done there, either

So no, the cop shouldn't have been on him like that and he probably did stay on him too long, and there will be some sort of appropriate charges for that... But second degree murder is not appropriate. Murder implies that it was intentional and there's nothing to indicate that was the case.
And the bottom line is, the race of either party had nothing to do with what happened.

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The bold statement is not true. You can talk while your carotid artery is being compressed. Air is still able to enter your lungs but it cannot get to your brain. People can and do talk while in sleeper holds. And it doesn't take a large amount of pressure to do this. If you ever watch Jui-jitsu, sleeper holds can be used without causing lasting bruising or damage to the neck. They just release the hold much sooner than 8 minutes.
Him saying he couldn't breath while standing is just another sign that he shouldn't be held face down or have his carotid artery compressed. He was maybe having a panic attack, maybe it was the drugs, maybe a little bit of both. The autopsy called it a homicide. They don't use that word for an overdose.

As for race, I've talked very little about it. I believe Police in the US need major reform regardless. Real de-escalation attempts should be made before force is considered. Less force should be used. Less people should die. Police should be held accountable when they abuse their position and Qualified Immunity should be abolished. And to cap it all off, less offenses should be criminalized.

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The population of people in the U.S. that are strung out on drugs and passing counterfeit bills need major reform, not the police officers.

Civilized said:

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IseWolf22 said:

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As for race, I've talked very little about it. I believe Police in the US need major reform regardless. Real de-escalation attempts should be made before force is considered. Less force should be used. Less people should die. Police should be held accountable when they abuse their position and Qualified Immunity should be abolished. And to cap it all off, less offenses should be criminalized.

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Agree completely.

These reforms are absolute no-brainers and should theoretically have broad support on both sides of the aisle, although I'm sure we'll find a way to infuse them with partisanship.

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How about criminals stop committing crimes? That is the best way to reduce interactions with police. There are a few reform measures that can help, especially for low level crime and non crime situations. But let's be serious, as long as crime is prevalent, there will be confrontational situations with law enforcement. I hope you are never the victim in a major crime.

The firepower the police face needs to be reduced.

Reduce the fire power and you can de-militarize their response which can yield better overall results

There are whole classes of weapons that should only be in the hands of the military. Less firepower means more of a chance for cooler heads to prevail.

You can't successfully retain former military people who are subject to PTSD kicking in when weapons go up from a knife or a .38 to something automatic. You can't take the greater firepower from the police until you take if from the crooks. To take it from the crooks you need the help of those who make money off weapons sales, including legitimate folks.

It's like the drug trade and the legal and jewelry business. Jewelers and lawyers need criminals so they can eat. There is a symbiotic relationship that has to be addressed.

Qualified immunity and union police contract protection at the same time is a problem.

I am not against Qualified Immunity in non-union situations. That serves the taxpayers.

However the City Manager or the Mayor in a strong mayor system needs to have the ability to **** can a bad police officer without facing a strike or unwinnable litigation.

When you have both protections there is no incentive for the police to police themselves.