SupplyChainPack said:

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Pacfanweb said:

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Civilized said:

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Pacfanweb said:

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All true.

And unfortunately, police being the human beings they are, they screw up once in awhile. And given what they deal with on a daily basis, sometimes their screw ups end up like this. Sometimes the police are the ones who are killed or injured.

As you say, it's the nature of the job. We can always try and find ways in which police can do better, and we probably should....but the bottom line is, human beings are still human beings. And they are going to screw up occasionally. While we should always try and keep that to a minimum, the truth of the matter is, it's something we simply have to accept, given the nature of the job.

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Based on what you've said about this topic I think me and you are largely on the same page about arresting officer's fate.

I don't think he murdered George Floyd. I do think Floyd was under the influence. I don't think the amounts of drugs in his system would have been fatal by themselves. I do think the officer was negligent, maybe criminally, and he'll likely pay a price for that.

I don't envy police officers' jobs, the risks they take, and the snap judgments they are tasked with making. I do think we do them a disservice by not providing superior training regarding how to keep them out of situations like these officers found themselves in, and how to de-escalate them when they're in them.

It's way easier to prevent this outcome when you're not ever physically engaged with a suspect in the first place. With police encounters and outcomes, an ounce of prevention is worth a damn metric ton of cure.

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Well, yeah. However, what would you have them do? They had to arrest the guy. He wasn't cooperating. He was under the influence...of what, they didn't know at the time. There was no "talking him down".

They're trained to manhandle folks when necessary. I think it was necessary here. Not to the "kneeling on his neck" level of "necessary", but necessary. I think it's just bad luck that they took down a guy who had heart disease, was a heavy drug user, was high on drugs at the time, and was basically a walking, ticking time bomb for a heart attack. And then compounded the perception of what they were doing with the "knee on the neck" videos.
People immediately jumped on that and assumed Floyd was choked by that.

They are wrong. But you can't take back all the incorrect reporting, riots, people killed in riots, and unrest that has resulted. It's a sad situation all around, really.

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Agree. Trying to figure out what the officers were supposed to do to not physically engage the suspect.
"Sir, would you mind if we arrest for passing counterfeit bills?
You do?
Awe shucks, nevermind. Have a nice day sir."

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cowboypack02 said:

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I think this is spot on.

Alot of people made a lot of choices that day that led to George Floyd's death.

The best way to solve any problem is to work backwards until we get to the root cause of the issue, and then solve for that.

The root cause of the issue was Floyd attempting to pass counterfeit bills. Alot of things happened after this, but the counterfeit bills were the root cause of the police being called. The easiest solution for that is to not try to pass the bills, because that is a crime.

Instead of doing this everyone wants to talk about the cops, and how the cops handled the situation and what they could of done differently. For some reason we aren't suppose to speak about Floyd and what he could of done differently to keep this from happening to himself.

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Civilized said:

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cowboypack02 said:

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I think this is spot on.

Alot of people made a lot of choices that day that led to George Floyd's death.

The best way to solve any problem is to work backwards until we get to the root cause of the issue, and then solve for that.

The root cause of the issue was Floyd attempting to pass counterfeit bills. Alot of things happened after this, but the counterfeit bills were the root cause of the police being called. The easiest solution for that is to not try to pass the bills, because that is a crime.

Instead of doing this everyone wants to talk about the cops, and how the cops handled the situation and what they could of done differently. For some reason we aren't suppose to speak about Floyd and what he could of done differently to keep this from happening to himself.

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The reality is that crime rates HAVE declined significantly over the last 30 years. Violent crimes have declined by 71% and property crimes have declined by 69% according the Bureau of Justice.

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Pacfanweb said:

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You do not have to "fix" poverty.

What needs to be done is to bring the black poverty rate inline with the white poverty rate, or maybe the overall poverty rate.

That can absolutely be done by fixing all the things we have discussed over a couple of different threads that is wrong with black culture and their community in general. Education, family, Etc.

Of course it won't eliminate poverty. That can't and won't be done. But the poverty rate can certainly be brought into line with everyone else, and when you do that the rest of the problem should take care of themselves.

The thing about all this is, the gains to be had by reducing black poverty will be far more beneficial than any of the things you mentioned.

That's why I say they should be a priority. Everything else is just treating a symptom

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lumberpack5 said:

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IseWolf22 said:

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lumberpack5 said:

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Qualified immunity and union police contract protection at the same time is a problem.

I am not against Qualified Immunity in non-union situations. That serves the taxpayers.

However the City Manager or the Mayor in a strong mayor system needs to have the ability to **** can a bad police officer without facing a strike or unwinnable litigation.

When you have both protections there is no incentive for the police to police themselves.

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Qualified Immunity needs to be abolished regardless of union contracts. It applies to more than police anyways. Any government official can claim it when caught commiting a crime or abusing power

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Qualified immunity in NC is cut when the unit of government buys insurance for certain things. The employee of the unit is covered under the umbrella of the coverage in most cases. Sometimes the insurance company will balk if the source of the litigation is an idiot that should have been fired long ago, it is document, and the actions are clearly illegal. Those hurdles together make one high hurdle.

The citizen is not in privity of contract with his or her government. The government does not "owe" you anything. Also the pockets of the government are much deeper than the person who wronged you. For instance, say the lazy building inspector does not come to your job on time and causes you to lose a load of concrete. He does not have a contract with you. Much case law will eventual say you should not have trusted him to come on time in the first place. Now if his negligence which can be documented results in a life safety thing and that thing kills people he and the unit of government have negligence insurance only to the level of criminal behavior.

I would not even bring abuse of power into the argument.

Three of the four men on Mount Rushmore abused their power. Washington was a power unto himself. Qualified immunity and government officials mix when stupidity is involved, not when conspiracy to defraud is involved. Take for example the crooks who voted themselves million dollar pensions in some little California town. Eventually they were indicted and convicted of fraud and conspiracy, but for a while they were in the wind so to speak claiming they took legal votes, etc., etc.

This is the definitive "Bible" on the subject in NC

https://www.sog.unc.edu/sites/www.sog.unc.edu/files/course_materials/Crowell_Local%20gov%27t%20immunity%20Nov%2011.pdf

The Institute of Government in Chapel Hill synthesizes the written law and more importantly the case law. The case law is what is most important. NC is one of the most conservative legal and fiscal states in the Nation and keeps it's smaller units under very strict controls. We are a Dillon's rule state and that also applies the University System.

Many States allow "Home Rule". Home rule means that unit gets to make it's own laws that are not in direct conflict with their State and Federal law. It is in some of these places that really crazy **** happens. Examples are San Diego, Detroit, Montgomery County Alabama (Birmingham), NYC, It happens in some rural places but since so few live their it gets little attention. Almost all of these cases of crazy are tied to economic foolishness and hubris, followed up by vultures and con men. Straight up frauds and thefts actually seem to cause less long term damage.

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IseWolf22 said:

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You're going to have to break this down more for me. I'll admit I am completely ignorant to state specific aspect of Qualified Immunity and it's very possible NC has a better standard. I have not so far seen any crazy QI examples from our state.

There are a ton of examples of people getting off for offenses that are clearly corrupt, unethical, sometimes even illegal, and still being granted QI. Even opinions where the judge clearly states that the accused should be held responsible, but they are forced to accept QI because the exact offense was not specifically prohibited in that exact scenario.

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Pacfanweb said:

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ISE: no, there's no reason we can't do some or all of those things now. But I don't think any of them will do much in the way of solving things.

Again, you're treating the symptoms, and not the disease.

And yes... Changing the culture and reducing the black poverty rate will certainly take a long time. No doubt about it.

But until that is roughly equal, we're going to always have problems. And it's got to be done sometime... And if you want folks to get behind some of these other changes, there needs to be a long-term plan to actually fix the real problem.

And then it just simply has to be drilled into people's heads, over and over, month after month, year after year, that this is a very long term fix and we need to stay the course and keep working at it. That's the only way people's hearts and minds will change. You can't just wave a wand and say okay, you folks start taking education seriously so you'll get out of poverty and have it happen magically. Have to be chipped away at over the years. And it's not even remotely being done right now.... you can tell, because part of the solution requires people to admit they have the problem first. And I don't see much of that. I see mostly blame being thrown everywhere except for at the person in the mirror.

Even you guys here... You say "yeah that's a problem, BUT..."

No, that is THE problem. That's the root of it. So yes, address all those other issues, but it's going to be pointless if you're not addressing the root of the problem

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Pacfanweb said:

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ISE: no, there's no reason we can't do some or all of those things now. But I don't think any of them will do much in the way of solving things.

Again, you're treating the symptoms, and not the disease.

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Civilized said:

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Increase police training on implicit bias so they stop pulling and searching Blacks at significantly disproportionate rates. Decriminalize or legalize marijuana, implement de-escalation training, implement blind prosecution. Change heavy-handed mandatory sentencing laws. Instruct and educate juries better to reduce jury bias.

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Packchem91 said:

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Pacfanweb said:

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ISE: no, there's no reason we can't do some or all of those things now. But I don't think any of them will do much in the way of solving things.

Again, you're treating the symptoms, and not the disease.

And yes... Changing the culture and reducing the black poverty rate will certainly take a long time. No doubt about it.

But until that is roughly equal, we're going to always have problems. And it's got to be done sometime... And if you want folks to get behind some of these other changes, there needs to be a long-term plan to actually fix the real problem.

And then it just simply has to be drilled into people's heads, over and over, month after month, year after year, that this is a very long term fix and we need to stay the course and keep working at it. That's the only way people's hearts and minds will change. You can't just wave a wand and say okay, you folks start taking education seriously so you'll get out of poverty and have it happen magically. Have to be chipped away at over the years. And it's not even remotely being done right now.... you can tell, because part of the solution requires people to admit they have the problem first. And I don't see much of that. I see mostly blame being thrown everywhere except for at the person in the mirror.

Even you guys here... You say "yeah that's a problem, BUT..."

No, that is THE problem. That's the root of it. So yes, address all those other issues, but it's going to be pointless if you're not addressing the root of the problem

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Sure....go start a national dialog that says the #1 issue leading to poverty, not just among blacks, but among all races, is the single-parent family, and see how much of a non-starter that is.

I agree with your premise (and honestly, I don't know if the above is the #1 issue or not, but its darned sure one of the top 3, and in general contributes to all the other top issues - education, access, etc).

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IseWolf22 said:

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Packchem91 said:

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Pacfanweb said:

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ISE: no, there's no reason we can't do some or all of those things now. But I don't think any of them will do much in the way of solving things.

Again, you're treating the symptoms, and not the disease.

And yes... Changing the culture and reducing the black poverty rate will certainly take a long time. No doubt about it.

But until that is roughly equal, we're going to always have problems. And it's got to be done sometime... And if you want folks to get behind some of these other changes, there needs to be a long-term plan to actually fix the real problem.

And then it just simply has to be drilled into people's heads, over and over, month after month, year after year, that this is a very long term fix and we need to stay the course and keep working at it. That's the only way people's hearts and minds will change. You can't just wave a wand and say okay, you folks start taking education seriously so you'll get out of poverty and have it happen magically. Have to be chipped away at over the years. And it's not even remotely being done right now.... you can tell, because part of the solution requires people to admit they have the problem first. And I don't see much of that. I see mostly blame being thrown everywhere except for at the person in the mirror.

Even you guys here... You say "yeah that's a problem, BUT..."

No, that is THE problem. That's the root of it. So yes, address all those other issues, but it's going to be pointless if you're not addressing the root of the problem

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Sure....go start a national dialog that says the #1 issue leading to poverty, not just among blacks, but among all races, is the single-parent family, and see how much of a non-starter that is.

I agree with your premise (and honestly, I don't know if the above is the #1 issue or not, but its darned sure one of the top 3, and in general contributes to all the other top issues - education, access, etc).

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It's a top 2 issue for sure. Marriage before children and staying together to raise them may be the #1 factor that allows someone to climb out of poverty to the middle class. IDK why you think it's a non-starter though. It's an issue at least talked about by anyone who studies poverty, even if they argue against it being a major factor.

As for Pacfanweb, they are two separate problems. You can solve one while still working on the other. One is a MUCH harder thing to do though, so why not work on the low hanging fruit?

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Civilized said:

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Pacfanweb said:

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ISE: no, there's no reason we can't do some or all of those things now. But I don't think any of them will do much in the way of solving things.

Again, you're treating the symptoms, and not the disease.

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Civilized said:

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Increase police training on implicit bias so they stop pulling and searching Blacks at significantly disproportionate rates. Decriminalize or legalize marijuana, implement de-escalation training, implement blind prosecution. Change heavy-handed mandatory sentencing laws. Instruct and educate juries better to reduce jury bias.

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Along with eliminating QI, these remedies are not symptoms of poverty, eduction gaps, or family instability.

They're simply systemic biases in criminal justice that can, and need to be, eliminated ASAP.

They're not symptoms, they're problems.

Eliminate those and you both solve 'fixable' problems and maybe earn some capital with the Black community while longer-term solutions for poverty and education gaps and family stability are underway.

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Packchem91 said:

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Sure....go start a national dialog that says the #1 issue leading to poverty, not just among blacks, but among all races, is the single-parent family, and see how much of a non-starter that is.

I agree with your premise (and honestly, I don't know if the above is the #1 issue or not, but its darned sure one of the top 3, and in general contributes to all the other top issues - education, access, etc).

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Pacfanweb said:

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Well, of course they're not going to listen to me.

It's going to take some younger, more hip black people to start getting the idea across, and it's going to take some time for it to sink in and take effect.

Their culture of knocking up multiple women and not taking care of their kids, not caring about education and blaming everyone BUT the man in the mirror for their lot in life: It didn't just get that way overnight, either. It was seeded, watered, fertilized and nurtured along for decades. Been a long ride to get to where they are now.

There's not a magic teleporter back to when the black family was more intact and the single mother birth rate was around 40% instead of over 70%.

It's taken a long time to get here, and it'll take a long time to roll some of this flawed thinking and lack of personal responsibility back. But it can be done. Has to start being preached and listened to instead of all the rabble rousers that tell them nothing is their own fault.

People like Anthony Mackie. Here is one heck of a good way to think about these things, and it's just the tip of the iceberg:

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Civilized said:

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Pacfanweb said:

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Well, of course they're not going to listen to me.

It's going to take some younger, more hip black people to start getting the idea across, and it's going to take some time for it to sink in and take effect.

Their culture of knocking up multiple women and not taking care of their kids, not caring about education and blaming everyone BUT the man in the mirror for their lot in life: It didn't just get that way overnight, either. It was seeded, watered, fertilized and nurtured along for decades. Been a long ride to get to where they are now.

There's not a magic teleporter back to when the black family was more intact and the single mother birth rate was around 40% instead of over 70%.

It's taken a long time to get here, and it'll take a long time to roll some of this flawed thinking and lack of personal responsibility back. But it can be done. Has to start being preached and listened to instead of all the rabble rousers that tell them nothing is their own fault.

People like Anthony Mackie. Here is one heck of a good way to think about these things, and it's just the tip of the iceberg:

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Anthony Mackie has seemed like a cool dude in every interview I've ever seen or read of his.

Role modeling is huge in this. How you connect successful black professionals and family men and women with their community to serve as role models is a huge challenge. Role models don't have to be black of course but relatability is key.

There are still great organizations out there like Big Brothers/Big Sisters that are more colorblind but there need to by many more role model touch points for young Black Americans in need, especially young Black men.

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Packchem91 said:

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Sure....go start a national dialog that says the #1 issue leading to poverty, not just among blacks, but among all races, is the single-parent family, and see how much of a non-starter that is.

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TheStorm said:

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Packchem91 said:

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Sure....go start a national dialog that says the #1 issue leading to poverty, not just among blacks, but among all races, is the single-parent family, and see how much of a non-starter that is.

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Agreed. Plus whoever tries to start that dialogue would immediately be labelled a racist.

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Pacfanweb said:

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Yep, which is why I said it has to be some younger, influential black people to do it.

Back in the day, Bill Cosby started saying these things, but obviously he isn't going to be listened to now, plus he'd have been labeled "old and out of touch" eventually anyway.

Morgan Freeman has said some of the things I'm saying. But again, he's old.

Denzel Washington does it some. Not super active about it, but he's spoken the truth on occasion.

It will take quite a few like Anthony Mackie to start turning the tide and get people to stop wanting to "cancel" whoever has an opposing viewpoint and LISTEN. He even said that in the video I posted, that nobody listens.

Seems to be a lost way of communicating these days.

I like to think I still listen and consider other's views, at least sometimes. Throughout this discussion here, I started off pretty much directly opposed to Civilized and what he was saying, because I disagreed with it. But, as the discussion has gone one, we all have pretty much (unlike another board that will remain nameless called the Brickyard) stayed civil in our tone, even when frustrated, and kept the dialog going.


That's almost unique in this day and age of folks wanting to constantly troll and see who they can piss off.

And along the way, I've come around to, at least the way I see it, kind of meeting Civ's points in the middle somewhere and agreeing that "let's do them and see if it'll get people to come around and see the other side as well". I still don't totally agree with it, but we have to do SOMETHING to get things to change, and "meeting in the middle" is a time-honored and proven way to get things done.

If this would just make its way across the country now......

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Pacfanweb said:

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TheStorm said:

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Packchem91 said:

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Sure....go start a national dialog that says the #1 issue leading to poverty, not just among blacks, but among all races, is the single-parent family, and see how much of a non-starter that is.

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Agreed. Plus whoever tries to start that dialogue would immediately be labelled a racist.

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Yep, which is why I said it has to be some younger, influential black people to do it.

Back in the day, Bill Cosby started saying these things, but obviously he isn't going to be listened to now, plus he'd have been labeled "old and out of touch" eventually anyway.

Morgan Freeman has said some of the things I'm saying. But again, he's old.

Denzel Washington does it some. Not super active about it, but he's spoken the truth on occasion.

It will take quite a few like Anthony Mackie to start turning the tide and get people to stop wanting to "cancel" whoever has an opposing viewpoint and LISTEN. He even said that in the video I posted, that nobody listens.

Seems to be a lost way of communicating these days.

I like to think I still listen and consider other's views, at least sometimes. Throughout this discussion here, I started off pretty much directly opposed to Civilized and what he was saying, because I disagreed with it. But, as the discussion has gone one, we all have pretty much (unlike another board that will remain nameless called the Brickyard) stayed civil in our tone, even when frustrated, and kept the dialog going.


That's almost unique in this day and age of folks wanting to constantly troll and see who they can piss off.

And along the way, I've come around to, at least the way I see it, kind of meeting Civ's points in the middle somewhere and agreeing that "let's do them and see if it'll get people to come around and see the other side as well". I still don't totally agree with it, but we have to do SOMETHING to get things to change, and "meeting in the middle" is a time-honored and proven way to get things done.

If this would just make its way across the country now......

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Civilized said:

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Pacfanweb said:

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Yep, which is why I said it has to be some younger, influential black people to do it.

Back in the day, Bill Cosby started saying these things, but obviously he isn't going to be listened to now, plus he'd have been labeled "old and out of touch" eventually anyway.

Morgan Freeman has said some of the things I'm saying. But again, he's old.

Denzel Washington does it some. Not super active about it, but he's spoken the truth on occasion.

It will take quite a few like Anthony Mackie to start turning the tide and get people to stop wanting to "cancel" whoever has an opposing viewpoint and LISTEN. He even said that in the video I posted, that nobody listens.

Seems to be a lost way of communicating these days.

I like to think I still listen and consider other's views, at least sometimes. Throughout this discussion here, I started off pretty much directly opposed to Civilized and what he was saying, because I disagreed with it. But, as the discussion has gone one, we all have pretty much (unlike another board that will remain nameless called the Brickyard) stayed civil in our tone, even when frustrated, and kept the dialog going.


That's almost unique in this day and age of folks wanting to constantly troll and see who they can piss off.

And along the way, I've come around to, at least the way I see it, kind of meeting Civ's points in the middle somewhere and agreeing that "let's do them and see if it'll get people to come around and see the other side as well". I still don't totally agree with it, but we have to do SOMETHING to get things to change, and "meeting in the middle" is a time-honored and proven way to get things done.

If this would just make its way across the country now......

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Likewise brother!

It may seem like I'm here because I like to argue (which is true ) but really it's because disagreement makes me think harder about these issues and the perspective other people's data and experiences provide, and makes me consider other positions and nuances that I may not otherwise consider.

Respectful debate is really healthy. Even better with a bourbon in our hands at a tailgate!

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• Social Media - Polluted by randoms jumping in and that highschool friend who is a loon
• Work - HA! I don't want to get fired
• Friends - Still works, but in the limited time we have together, happier conversation topics take priority
• Home - My wife hates politics

IseWolf22 said:

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I love to argue as long as things can stay somewhat respectful. There just aren't many forums to have honest debate anymore.

• Social Media - Polluted by randoms jumping in and that highschool friend who is a loon
• Work - HA! I don't want to get fired
• Friends - Still works, but in the limited time we have together, happier conversation topics take priority
• Home - My wife hates politics

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Bas2020 said:

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Antifa and BLM are doing their best to re-elect Trump.


Public polling is swaying big time in favor of Law and Order.


3 months ago, the protests...errr riots were about 50/50 in support... now its like 80% against.


Who would have thunk it... Most Americans dont want their communities burned to the ground or be forced to bow down on their knees in public to these crazy loons.

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Bas2020 said:

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Antifa and BLM are doing their best to re-elect Trump.


Public polling is swaying big time in favor of Law and Order.


3 months ago, the protests...errr riots were about 50/50 in support... now its like 80% against.


Who would have thunk it... Most Americans dont want their communities burned to the ground or be forced to bow down on their knees in public to these crazy loons.

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Civilized said:

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IseWolf22 said:

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I love to argue as long as things can stay somewhat respectful. There just aren't many forums to have honest debate anymore.

• Social Media - Polluted by randoms jumping in and that highschool friend who is a loon
• Work - HA! I don't want to get fired
• Friends - Still works, but in the limited time we have together, happier conversation topics take priority
• Home - My wife hates politics

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For sure.

And IPS is my social media. I don't do that Facebook and Twitter *****

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statefan91 said:

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While I don't think the current protests in Wisconsin are good for anyone - at least the rioting aspects, it's sad to see another guy get shot by police.

Sounds like he's still alive but paralyzed, hopefully there's a thorough investigation and justice is served based on all the facts.

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IseWolf22 said:

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lumberpack5 said:

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IseWolf22 said:

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lumberpack5 said:

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Qualified immunity and union police contract protection at the same time is a problem.

I am not against Qualified Immunity in non-union situations. That serves the taxpayers.

However the City Manager or the Mayor in a strong mayor system needs to have the ability to **** can a bad police officer without facing a strike or unwinnable litigation.

When you have both protections there is no incentive for the police to police themselves.

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Qualified Immunity needs to be abolished regardless of union contracts. It applies to more than police anyways. Any government official can claim it when caught commiting a crime or abusing power

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Qualified immunity in NC is cut when the unit of government buys insurance for certain things. The employee of the unit is covered under the umbrella of the coverage in most cases. Sometimes the insurance company will balk if the source of the litigation is an idiot that should have been fired long ago, it is document, and the actions are clearly illegal. Those hurdles together make one high hurdle.

The citizen is not in privity of contract with his or her government. The government does not "owe" you anything. Also the pockets of the government are much deeper than the person who wronged you. For instance, say the lazy building inspector does not come to your job on time and causes you to lose a load of concrete. He does not have a contract with you. Much case law will eventual say you should not have trusted him to come on time in the first place. Now if his negligence which can be documented results in a life safety thing and that thing kills people he and the unit of government have negligence insurance only to the level of criminal behavior.

I would not even bring abuse of power into the argument.

Three of the four men on Mount Rushmore abused their power. Washington was a power unto himself. Qualified immunity and government officials mix when stupidity is involved, not when conspiracy to defraud is involved. Take for example the crooks who voted themselves million dollar pensions in some little California town. Eventually they were indicted and convicted of fraud and conspiracy, but for a while they were in the wind so to speak claiming they took legal votes, etc., etc.

This is the definitive "Bible" on the subject in NC

https://www.sog.unc.edu/sites/www.sog.unc.edu/files/course_materials/Crowell_Local%20gov%27t%20immunity%20Nov%2011.pdf

The Institute of Government in Chapel Hill synthesizes the written law and more importantly the case law. The case law is what is most important. NC is one of the most conservative legal and fiscal states in the Nation and keeps it's smaller units under very strict controls. We are a Dillon's rule state and that also applies the University System.

Many States allow "Home Rule". Home rule means that unit gets to make it's own laws that are not in direct conflict with their State and Federal law. It is in some of these places that really crazy **** happens. Examples are San Diego, Detroit, Montgomery County Alabama (Birmingham), NYC, It happens in some rural places but since so few live their it gets little attention. Almost all of these cases of crazy are tied to economic foolishness and hubris, followed up by vultures and con men. Straight up frauds and thefts actually seem to cause less long term damage.

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You're going to have to break this down more for me. I'll admit I am completely ignorant to state specific aspect of Qualified Immunity and it's very possible NC has a better standard. I have not so far seen any crazy QI examples from our state.

There are a ton of examples of people getting off for offenses that are clearly corrupt, unethical, sometimes even illegal, and still being granted QI. Even opinions where the judge clearly states that the accused should be held responsible, but they are forced to accept QI because the exact offense was not specifically prohibited in that exact scenario.

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