Pacfanweb said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

Pacfanweb said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

DrummerboyWolf said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

DrummerboyWolf said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Wolfblood said:

---

I always hear about how law enforcement should look to descalate these situations, but I hardly ever hear the same for those being arrested.

Why isn't resisting arrest strongly discouraged and condemned by racial justice proponents, politicians and the media?

Who benefits from resisting arrest?

The person being arrested? Law enforcement? Innocent bystanders?

It seems like a no win situation for everyone involved. I just feel like it should be included in the conversation when discussing these situations.

---

Because police are supposed to be trained professionals while perps are... criminals. You tend to hold people in positions of authority to a higher standard.

I'm all for more police, better funded police, better trained police, etc. Many have a really hard job. But I want all that to come with liability for their conduct.

---

But they are human and they have split seconds to make life and death decisions. There are some bad police, but 99.9% I believe are trying to do the right thing. They want to do their job then hopefully come home at night to their family. And you said it perfectly above. "Perps are criminals" and many times they lose their lives during the commission of crimes. We hold the police officers accountable for their actions, but the actions of the criminals get forgotten.

---

1st, No we don't hold them accountable for their actions. That's pretty much the point of all these pages. For the sake of argument, I'll accept your 99.9% number here. Why is it so damn difficult to punish the 0.1%? Why does the police union block them from being fired? Why are they immune from suits in civil court 99% of the time, even if the judge believes the officer committed misconduct? Why can the rare cop who actually is fired, move a short ways away and get the same job again?

As for the criminal...they are dead. Why should we keep focusing on that. In almost all cases, they weren't committing crimes worthy of the death penalty

---

That is the justice system then if they are committing misconduct and not being convicted. And yes those crimes did not deserve the death penalty, so don't resist and don't commit crimes and have warrants out for your arrest. It's really pretty simple.

---

George Floyd complied with the police and was executed in broad daylight.

So you might forgive black people for not exactly trusting that following the rules will keep them safe.

---

Come on man, Donald Trump has a better grip on the truth then you do here.

---

What did I say that's incorrect? Did Floyd resist arrest?

He was dragged out of the car and executed in broad daylight. Can you disprove that?

---

Yes. He absolutely resisted arrest. He was bombed out of his mind on Fentanyl. And he had a heart attack.

---

Yeah, it was the fentanyl, not the knee on his neck for nearly 9 minutes.

Lol.

James Henderson said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

Civilized said:

---

DrummerboyWolf said:

---

Because the government agencies called with protecting stuff are not doing their jobs. The police are either told to stand down or are overwhelmed. Had the Governor of Wisconsin brought in the National Guard after the first night of protests then this doesn't happen. Unfortunately it's going to happen more. People are going to defend their property with their 2nd Amendment rights. If the crap starts happening in my neighborhood, I will be locked, ready, and loaded.

The young man was part of a group of militia who's job was to protect property. I don't see how they can get him for anything but manslaughter and that will be a tough road too. He was in fear of his life. The police are not going to show up, so I cannot blame him for defending himself. If more evidence comes out that puts him in a different light, then maybe they can get the murder charge but with what I have seen, self defense is his right and it will be hard to convict him.

---

Does this kid have parents?

What parent allows their son to go "protect stuff" and potentially get killed or shoot and kill somebody? It's stuff. What, he's proving a point? That the "rioters haven't won?" Who cares about stuff, or proving a point when your boy is walking out the door and maybe not coming back?

I don't care that the police are allegedly not doing their jobs. It's property. Inanimate **** that doesn't matter when compared to multiple lives including your kid's. It's why you have insurance. It's not worth someone maybe losing a life over.

If my 17 year old was grabbing his gun and trying to go help "protect stuff" from rioters he'd have to shoot me first to get out the door.

---

Apparently this kid was being groomed to be a cop.

---

Aaaaaaand there's the entire problem, if true.

---

How so?

---

Because it's obvious that he's temperamentally Ill-suited to be a cop.

You just said it's such a hard job. You're right. It's not for cowboys.

GoPack2008 said:

---

Pacfanweb said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

Pacfanweb said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

DrummerboyWolf said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

DrummerboyWolf said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Wolfblood said:

---

I always hear about how law enforcement should look to descalate these situations, but I hardly ever hear the same for those being arrested.

Why isn't resisting arrest strongly discouraged and condemned by racial justice proponents, politicians and the media?

Who benefits from resisting arrest?

The person being arrested? Law enforcement? Innocent bystanders?

It seems like a no win situation for everyone involved. I just feel like it should be included in the conversation when discussing these situations.

---

Because police are supposed to be trained professionals while perps are... criminals. You tend to hold people in positions of authority to a higher standard.

I'm all for more police, better funded police, better trained police, etc. Many have a really hard job. But I want all that to come with liability for their conduct.

---

But they are human and they have split seconds to make life and death decisions. There are some bad police, but 99.9% I believe are trying to do the right thing. They want to do their job then hopefully come home at night to their family. And you said it perfectly above. "Perps are criminals" and many times they lose their lives during the commission of crimes. We hold the police officers accountable for their actions, but the actions of the criminals get forgotten.

---

1st, No we don't hold them accountable for their actions. That's pretty much the point of all these pages. For the sake of argument, I'll accept your 99.9% number here. Why is it so damn difficult to punish the 0.1%? Why does the police union block them from being fired? Why are they immune from suits in civil court 99% of the time, even if the judge believes the officer committed misconduct? Why can the rare cop who actually is fired, move a short ways away and get the same job again?

As for the criminal...they are dead. Why should we keep focusing on that. In almost all cases, they weren't committing crimes worthy of the death penalty

---

That is the justice system then if they are committing misconduct and not being convicted. And yes those crimes did not deserve the death penalty, so don't resist and don't commit crimes and have warrants out for your arrest. It's really pretty simple.

---

George Floyd complied with the police and was executed in broad daylight.

So you might forgive black people for not exactly trusting that following the rules will keep them safe.

---

Come on man, Donald Trump has a better grip on the truth then you do here.

---

What did I say that's incorrect? Did Floyd resist arrest?

He was dragged out of the car and executed in broad daylight. Can you disprove that?

---

Yes. He absolutely resisted arrest. He was bombed out of his mind on Fentanyl. And he had a heart attack.

---

Yeah, it was the fentanyl, not the knee on his neck for nearly 9 minutes.

Lol.

---

Correct. A knee on your neck doesn't make you have a heart attack.

95% blockage, and being on Fentanyl and Meth does. Now, the SITUATION might have helped trigger the heart attack...sure.

But a healthy person who's not on hard drugs isn't having a heart attack in that same position.

And I see you've backtracked on him resisting arrest. Good, because he 100% did.

James Henderson said:

---

But this isn't a black issue here. Just like I don't view it as a native american issue. This is police brutality.

I'm not sure why they are lumped together.

---

Because police have implicit bias just like other humans that work every other occupation.

Too many people think of racial bias as only explicit bias, like the Wilmington cops recently caught on tape:

Sitting in his patrol car in Wilmington, N.C., Officer Michael "Kevin" Piner predicted Black Lives Matter protests would soon lead to civil war. "I'm ready," Piner told another officer, adding that he planned to buy an assault rifle.


"We are just going to go out and start slaughtering them f------ n------," he said.

That's explicit bias. I don't think very many cops think like that.

Still, Black Americans get policed differently than white Americans. The preponderance of the bias is implicit, not explicit.

Here's an example:

Black Americans get pulled 2x more often than white Americans, and searched 4x as much. Are cops pulling over Blacks at twice the rate as whites while thinking to themselves "Hell yeah, I'm getting ready to pull over this [insert epithet] because, **** yeah!"

Almost certainly not but still, they get treated differently. That's why they get lumped together. The data doesn't lie. Blacks get treated differently in policing, even if it doesn't result from a conscious bias.

GoPack2008 said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Bas2020 said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

I just don't get why any of these reforms are so controversial, or why Republicans are the primary opposition. Cops are agents of the state. If you're concerned with government power and overreach, you should be concerned about Police reforms. They are the enforcement arm of government power. And if "99.9%" of officers are great then these changes are only going to affect the remainder who have no business having a badge and gun

---

Republicans aren't against reforms , heck that is what Tim Scott has been working on for years with opportunity zones and other reforms . What Republicans don't like is cities burning to the ground and looted under what often is a false racial narrative perpetuated by the media . You remember the Michael Brown hoax with hands up don't shoot that was complete lies, even the Obama DOJ came to that conclusion . Stop with the race baiting at every turn and many more people will come to your side .

---

Police killings caught on video are the most severe, visible, visceral bad outcome for black Americans in criminal justice so they're going to be a lightning rod. That's not surprising.

Make no mistake, there's no "false narrative" about outcomes for black Americans in policing and criminal justice in this country.

Go look at rates of stops, searches, charges, convictions, false convictions, paroles, or whatever you want to look at, and make the case that bias in the system is a "false narrative."

THAT is what black America is furious about.

---

Yeah, I'm not sure why anyone would even try to argue against your points anymore. I get people being angry about the reactionary violence in the streets. Its scary to all of us.
But listen to some of these black adults in positions of power / influence who have been stopped, frisked, roughed up, questioned, etc for doing nothing. Listen to a person who is black and that you respect talk about how he has to tell his sons how to be careful if ever stopped by a cop, even if they did nothing wrong.
As a dad, as a citizen, as a "Christian", as a _____, how do those things not make any of us saddened and angry?

We can all bicker about the men who have been caught in these videos dying at the hands of cops....some were bad guys. Few were saints. Many of them acted out in a way that absolutely put them in position to get hurt.
But....if you've grown up as a lesser citizen --- and you've seen this forever....and then you see TV images of cops shooting a black man while other cops walk by a white crazed teen with a rifle....why would you not be angry?

---

I agree and to me, police brutality is a different topic than systemic racism/discrimination.

While we're on that topic though, what about the Lumbee Indians, my race, who the government won't federally recognize. Imagine how it feels to be told by the government you aren't real, or don't exist.

That's kind of discrimination right? But hey, who cares about us?

---

Dude, I'm fully in support of the Lumbee Indians. Grew up one county over from Robeson county. What you describe is ABSOLUTELY discrimination, and the very definition of systemic racism.

Black people protesting for their rights doesn't negatively impact youthey're opposing the same power structures and institutions that have hurt the Lumbee people.

---

But this isn't a black issue here. Just like I don't view it as a native american issue. This is police brutality.

I'm not sure why they are lumped together.

---

Because police brutality happens to black people, per capita, WAY more often than it does to white people.

Because policing in America has often disproportionately harmed black people.

You can't fully separate the two issues.

---

Why are you using per capita? Why not use the % of interactions with police which would give you a much better data point ? Blacks kill blacks and blacks kill whites at a much higher rate than any other race it's not even close .

James Henderson said:

---

I agree, I don't think all cops think like that, but let me ask you this, do you think some black cops have similar thoughts relative to white people?

When you say cops pull over blacks at twice the rate as whites, are you referring to white cops or all cops? Do black cops pull over black americans at a similar rate?

I"m asking because I don't know, but apparently they must track it.

---

Black cops may have similar thoughts; given enough black cops, there's got to be some. But the macro data doesn't support the conclusion that those thoughts are pervasive enough to show some kind of broad, reverse-discrimination that disproportionately impacts whites.

All cops pull over blacks at twice the rate of whites. I've actually never seen any data that further parses traffic stops based on the race of the officer, only the race of the driver that got stopped. It would be interesting to see.

James Henderson said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Pacfanweb said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

Yeah, it was the fentanyl, not the knee on his neck for nearly 9 minutes.

Lol.

---

Correct. A knee on your neck doesn't make you have a heart attack.

95% blockage, and being on Fentanyl and Meth does. Now, the SITUATION might have helped trigger the heart attack...sure.

But a healthy person who's not on hard drugs isn't having a heart attack in that same position.

And I see you've backtracked on him resisting arrest. Good, because he 100% did.

---

Isn't the most probable assessment of this that the knee on his neck for 9 minutes AND the drugs in his system AND his heart health all contributed to his death?

The challenge for both the defense and the prosecution is in proving (or casting doubt on) the extent to which the officer's actions and inactions led to Floyd's death.

To me, the officer's apparent lack of concern for Floyd's health after he was not moving and not breathing for several minutes is more damning than the initial act of holding him down with his knee.

---

I 100 percent agree.

Reminds me of Tony Tempa from 2016. White man died in similar fashion. The cops thought he was snoring. Unreal.

---

Tony Timpa death should have been a firestorm because they were cracking jokes over his body . That's to me another point when race didn't matter. These incidents have zero to do with race . Many of these incidents are minority cops like in Baltimore but the race card is still used . Makes no sense to anybody with common sense . Bad policing and racism are not the same thing - the media wants you to believe it is .


There are crappy cops that suck at their job just like crappy bankers , carpenters , real estate agents and sport writers . Just because your not trained well and genuinely suck at your job doesn't make you a racist .

GoPack2008 said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Bas2020 said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

I just don't get why any of these reforms are so controversial, or why Republicans are the primary opposition. Cops are agents of the state. If you're concerned with government power and overreach, you should be concerned about Police reforms. They are the enforcement arm of government power. And if "99.9%" of officers are great then these changes are only going to affect the remainder who have no business having a badge and gun

---

Republicans aren't against reforms , heck that is what Tim Scott has been working on for years with opportunity zones and other reforms . What Republicans don't like is cities burning to the ground and looted under what often is a false racial narrative perpetuated by the media . You remember the Michael Brown hoax with hands up don't shoot that was complete lies, even the Obama DOJ came to that conclusion . Stop with the race baiting at every turn and many more people will come to your side .

---

Police killings caught on video are the most severe, visible, visceral bad outcome for black Americans in criminal justice so they're going to be a lightning rod. That's not surprising.

Make no mistake, there's no "false narrative" about outcomes for black Americans in policing and criminal justice in this country.

Go look at rates of stops, searches, charges, convictions, false convictions, paroles, or whatever you want to look at, and make the case that bias in the system is a "false narrative."

THAT is what black America is furious about.

---

Yeah, I'm not sure why anyone would even try to argue against your points anymore. I get people being angry about the reactionary violence in the streets. Its scary to all of us.
But listen to some of these black adults in positions of power / influence who have been stopped, frisked, roughed up, questioned, etc for doing nothing. Listen to a person who is black and that you respect talk about how he has to tell his sons how to be careful if ever stopped by a cop, even if they did nothing wrong.
As a dad, as a citizen, as a "Christian", as a _____, how do those things not make any of us saddened and angry?

We can all bicker about the men who have been caught in these videos dying at the hands of cops....some were bad guys. Few were saints. Many of them acted out in a way that absolutely put them in position to get hurt.
But....if you've grown up as a lesser citizen --- and you've seen this forever....and then you see TV images of cops shooting a black man while other cops walk by a white crazed teen with a rifle....why would you not be angry?

---

I agree and to me, police brutality is a different topic than systemic racism/discrimination.

While we're on that topic though, what about the Lumbee Indians, my race, who the government won't federally recognize. Imagine how it feels to be told by the government you aren't real, or don't exist.

That's kind of discrimination right? But hey, who cares about us?

---

Dude, I'm fully in support of the Lumbee Indians. Grew up one county over from Robeson county. What you describe is ABSOLUTELY discrimination, and the very definition of systemic racism.

Black people protesting for their rights doesn't negatively impact youthey're opposing the same power structures and institutions that have hurt the Lumbee people.

---

But this isn't a black issue here. Just like I don't view it as a native american issue. This is police brutality.

I'm not sure why they are lumped together.

---

Because police brutality happens to black people, per capita, WAY more often than it does to white people.

Because policing in America has often disproportionately harmed black people.

You can't fully separate the two issues.

---

Can you separate these numbers from the fact that black people, per capita, commit WAY more crime than anyone else, and therefore are WAY more likely to have encounters with the police?

I don't think you can.

That doesn't excuse any wrongdoing by police by any means, but it's damn sure relevant. You get in front of the police more often, you run the risk of encountering one of the few bad ones.

And how you act towards the police matters, too.

Again, doesn't excuse any wrongdoing by the police, but I'd refer you to that interview with Anthony Mackie and how he suggest any black man (and anyone, really) act when encountering the police. You do that, and you won't be treated badly the overwhelming majority of the time if you haven't done anything. And you fight the system in court, not on the side of the road.

Civilized said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

I agree, I don't think all cops think like that, but let me ask you this, do you think some black cops have similar thoughts relative to white people?

When you say cops pull over blacks at twice the rate as whites, are you referring to white cops or all cops? Do black cops pull over black americans at a similar rate?

I"m asking because I don't know, but apparently they must track it.

---

Black cops may have similar thoughts; given enough black cops, there's got to be some. But the macro data doesn't support the conclusion that those thoughts are pervasive enough to show some kind of broad, reverse-discrimination that disproportionately impacts whites.

All cops pull over blacks at twice the rate of whites. I've actually never seen any data that further parses traffic stops based on the race of the officer, only the race of the driver that got stopped. It would be interesting to see.

---

Isn't that just one state's statistics, though?

Because this study says otherwise, I believe, although I'm still reading it.
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/pbtss11.pdf

"Relatively more black drivers (13%) than white (10%) and Hispanic (10%) drivers were pulled over in a traffic stop during their most recent contact with police. There were no statistical differences in the race or Hispanic origin of persons involved in street stops."

Bas2020 said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

I 100 percent agree.

Reminds me of Tony Tempa from 2016. White man died in similar fashion. The cops thought he was snoring. Unreal.

---

Tony Timpa death should have been a firestorm because they were cracking jokes over his body . That's to me another point when race didn't matter. Many of these incidents are minority cops like in Baltimore but the race card is still used . Makes no sense . Bad policing and racism are not the same thing - the media wants you to believe it is .

---

The Tempa case is a ridiculous lack of situational awareness, which goes to the training and maturity of the officers.

You say race didn't matter in the Tempa case, and you're probably right.

The question is, how can you tell when race DOES matter? What does one of those cases look like?

Police clearly fall victim to implicit biases when pulling Black Americans, otherwise they wouldn't pull them at 2x the rate of whites and search them at 4x the rate of whites. That data was gathered over 20 million traffic stops so it's very macro and paints a picture of indisputable bias.

If you looked hard at all those traffic stops, would you be able to tell on a micro level, by interviewing the officer and the driver, etc. that race mattered? My strong suspicion is that you wouldn't be able to tell. It would just seem like a normal traffic stop. But when you back up and see the whole forest not just the one tree you were up close to, patterns emerge. Just because you can't see patterns up close doesn't mean they're not there.

So if police fall victim to bias when pulling Black Americans, and they indisputably do, why wouldn't they also be subject to those same biases when deciding whether to use force, and how much force to use?

Bas2020 said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Bas2020 said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

I just don't get why any of these reforms are so controversial, or why Republicans are the primary opposition. Cops are agents of the state. If you're concerned with government power and overreach, you should be concerned about Police reforms. They are the enforcement arm of government power. And if "99.9%" of officers are great then these changes are only going to affect the remainder who have no business having a badge and gun

---

Republicans aren't against reforms , heck that is what Tim Scott has been working on for years with opportunity zones and other reforms . What Republicans don't like is cities burning to the ground and looted under what often is a false racial narrative perpetuated by the media . You remember the Michael Brown hoax with hands up don't shoot that was complete lies, even the Obama DOJ came to that conclusion . Stop with the race baiting at every turn and many more people will come to your side .

---

Police killings caught on video are the most severe, visible, visceral bad outcome for black Americans in criminal justice so they're going to be a lightning rod. That's not surprising.

Make no mistake, there's no "false narrative" about outcomes for black Americans in policing and criminal justice in this country.

Go look at rates of stops, searches, charges, convictions, false convictions, paroles, or whatever you want to look at, and make the case that bias in the system is a "false narrative."

THAT is what black America is furious about.

---

Yeah, I'm not sure why anyone would even try to argue against your points anymore. I get people being angry about the reactionary violence in the streets. Its scary to all of us.
But listen to some of these black adults in positions of power / influence who have been stopped, frisked, roughed up, questioned, etc for doing nothing. Listen to a person who is black and that you respect talk about how he has to tell his sons how to be careful if ever stopped by a cop, even if they did nothing wrong.
As a dad, as a citizen, as a "Christian", as a _____, how do those things not make any of us saddened and angry?

We can all bicker about the men who have been caught in these videos dying at the hands of cops....some were bad guys. Few were saints. Many of them acted out in a way that absolutely put them in position to get hurt.
But....if you've grown up as a lesser citizen --- and you've seen this forever....and then you see TV images of cops shooting a black man while other cops walk by a white crazed teen with a rifle....why would you not be angry?

---

I agree and to me, police brutality is a different topic than systemic racism/discrimination.

While we're on that topic though, what about the Lumbee Indians, my race, who the government won't federally recognize. Imagine how it feels to be told by the government you aren't real, or don't exist.

That's kind of discrimination right? But hey, who cares about us?

---

Dude, I'm fully in support of the Lumbee Indians. Grew up one county over from Robeson county. What you describe is ABSOLUTELY discrimination, and the very definition of systemic racism.

Black people protesting for their rights doesn't negatively impact youthey're opposing the same power structures and institutions that have hurt the Lumbee people.

---

But this isn't a black issue here. Just like I don't view it as a native american issue. This is police brutality.

I'm not sure why they are lumped together.

---

Because police brutality happens to black people, per capita, WAY more often than it does to white people.

Because policing in America has often disproportionately harmed black people.

You can't fully separate the two issues.

---

Why are you using per capita? Why not use the % of interactions with police which would give you a much better data point ? Blacks kill blacks and blacks kill whites at a much higher rate than any other race it's not even close .

---

Because number of encounters with law enforcement can be distorted by the very same racial biases.

See stop and frisk in NYC as one of many examples. Overwhelmingly targeted blacks and Latinos, drastically increasing total encounters.

I don't think black people are inherently more criminal than white people, so I use per capita. Do you think black people are inherently more criminal than white people?

GoPack2008 said:

---

Bas2020 said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Bas2020 said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

I just don't get why any of these reforms are so controversial, or why Republicans are the primary opposition. Cops are agents of the state. If you're concerned with government power and overreach, you should be concerned about Police reforms. They are the enforcement arm of government power. And if "99.9%" of officers are great then these changes are only going to affect the remainder who have no business having a badge and gun

---

Republicans aren't against reforms , heck that is what Tim Scott has been working on for years with opportunity zones and other reforms . What Republicans don't like is cities burning to the ground and looted under what often is a false racial narrative perpetuated by the media . You remember the Michael Brown hoax with hands up don't shoot that was complete lies, even the Obama DOJ came to that conclusion . Stop with the race baiting at every turn and many more people will come to your side .

---

Police killings caught on video are the most severe, visible, visceral bad outcome for black Americans in criminal justice so they're going to be a lightning rod. That's not surprising.

Make no mistake, there's no "false narrative" about outcomes for black Americans in policing and criminal justice in this country.

Go look at rates of stops, searches, charges, convictions, false convictions, paroles, or whatever you want to look at, and make the case that bias in the system is a "false narrative."

THAT is what black America is furious about.

---

Yeah, I'm not sure why anyone would even try to argue against your points anymore. I get people being angry about the reactionary violence in the streets. Its scary to all of us.
But listen to some of these black adults in positions of power / influence who have been stopped, frisked, roughed up, questioned, etc for doing nothing. Listen to a person who is black and that you respect talk about how he has to tell his sons how to be careful if ever stopped by a cop, even if they did nothing wrong.
As a dad, as a citizen, as a "Christian", as a _____, how do those things not make any of us saddened and angry?

We can all bicker about the men who have been caught in these videos dying at the hands of cops....some were bad guys. Few were saints. Many of them acted out in a way that absolutely put them in position to get hurt.
But....if you've grown up as a lesser citizen --- and you've seen this forever....and then you see TV images of cops shooting a black man while other cops walk by a white crazed teen with a rifle....why would you not be angry?

---

I agree and to me, police brutality is a different topic than systemic racism/discrimination.

While we're on that topic though, what about the Lumbee Indians, my race, who the government won't federally recognize. Imagine how it feels to be told by the government you aren't real, or don't exist.

That's kind of discrimination right? But hey, who cares about us?

---

Dude, I'm fully in support of the Lumbee Indians. Grew up one county over from Robeson county. What you describe is ABSOLUTELY discrimination, and the very definition of systemic racism.

Black people protesting for their rights doesn't negatively impact youthey're opposing the same power structures and institutions that have hurt the Lumbee people.

---

But this isn't a black issue here. Just like I don't view it as a native american issue. This is police brutality.

I'm not sure why they are lumped together.

---

Because police brutality happens to black people, per capita, WAY more often than it does to white people.

Because policing in America has often disproportionately harmed black people.

You can't fully separate the two issues.

---

Why are you using per capita? Why not use the % of interactions with police which would give you a much better data point ? Blacks kill blacks and blacks kill whites at a much higher rate than any other race it's not even close .

---

I don't think black people are inherently more criminal than white people, so I use per capita. Do you think black people are inherently more criminal than white people?

---

If they aren't, then why do they commit crime at such a disproportionate amount relative to their percentage of the population?

They commit half, or just over half of all murders. They kill more people total in a typical year, and they kill more whites than whites kill blacks.

It's not just that one category, either. In most all violent crime categories, the percentage of blacks that commit them is WAY out of whack with the 13% they comprise of our population.

So I don't see how you can make that statement.

They don't murder so many people year after year because the police bother them more.

Pacfanweb said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

Bas2020 said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Bas2020 said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

I just don't get why any of these reforms are so controversial, or why Republicans are the primary opposition. Cops are agents of the state. If you're concerned with government power and overreach, you should be concerned about Police reforms. They are the enforcement arm of government power. And if "99.9%" of officers are great then these changes are only going to affect the remainder who have no business having a badge and gun

---

Republicans aren't against reforms , heck that is what Tim Scott has been working on for years with opportunity zones and other reforms . What Republicans don't like is cities burning to the ground and looted under what often is a false racial narrative perpetuated by the media . You remember the Michael Brown hoax with hands up don't shoot that was complete lies, even the Obama DOJ came to that conclusion . Stop with the race baiting at every turn and many more people will come to your side .

---

Police killings caught on video are the most severe, visible, visceral bad outcome for black Americans in criminal justice so they're going to be a lightning rod. That's not surprising.

Make no mistake, there's no "false narrative" about outcomes for black Americans in policing and criminal justice in this country.

Go look at rates of stops, searches, charges, convictions, false convictions, paroles, or whatever you want to look at, and make the case that bias in the system is a "false narrative."

THAT is what black America is furious about.

---

Yeah, I'm not sure why anyone would even try to argue against your points anymore. I get people being angry about the reactionary violence in the streets. Its scary to all of us.
But listen to some of these black adults in positions of power / influence who have been stopped, frisked, roughed up, questioned, etc for doing nothing. Listen to a person who is black and that you respect talk about how he has to tell his sons how to be careful if ever stopped by a cop, even if they did nothing wrong.
As a dad, as a citizen, as a "Christian", as a _____, how do those things not make any of us saddened and angry?

We can all bicker about the men who have been caught in these videos dying at the hands of cops....some were bad guys. Few were saints. Many of them acted out in a way that absolutely put them in position to get hurt.
But....if you've grown up as a lesser citizen --- and you've seen this forever....and then you see TV images of cops shooting a black man while other cops walk by a white crazed teen with a rifle....why would you not be angry?

---

I agree and to me, police brutality is a different topic than systemic racism/discrimination.

While we're on that topic though, what about the Lumbee Indians, my race, who the government won't federally recognize. Imagine how it feels to be told by the government you aren't real, or don't exist.

That's kind of discrimination right? But hey, who cares about us?

---

Dude, I'm fully in support of the Lumbee Indians. Grew up one county over from Robeson county. What you describe is ABSOLUTELY discrimination, and the very definition of systemic racism.

Black people protesting for their rights doesn't negatively impact youthey're opposing the same power structures and institutions that have hurt the Lumbee people.

---

But this isn't a black issue here. Just like I don't view it as a native american issue. This is police brutality.

I'm not sure why they are lumped together.

---

Because police brutality happens to black people, per capita, WAY more often than it does to white people.

Because policing in America has often disproportionately harmed black people.

You can't fully separate the two issues.

---

Why are you using per capita? Why not use the % of interactions with police which would give you a much better data point ? Blacks kill blacks and blacks kill whites at a much higher rate than any other race it's not even close .

---

I don't think black people are inherently more criminal than white people, so I use per capita. Do you think black people are inherently more criminal than white people?

---

If they aren't, then why do they commit crime at such a disproportionate amount relative to their percentage of the population?

They commit half, or just over half of all murders. They kill more people total in a typical year, and they kill more whites than whites kill blacks.

It's not just that one category, either. In most all violent crime categories, the percentage of blacks that commit them is WAY out of whack with the 13% they comprise of our population.

So I don't see how you can make that statement.

They don't murder so many people year after year because the police bother them more.

---

I'm not sure your numbers are accurate, but I'll dig into that tomorrow. Certainly context matters, and you can contort things in all sorts of ways. Most murders are also committed by men. You and I are both men. Does that make us more prone to violence?

Let's assume, for the sake of simplicity, that all of your statements are correct.

Why do you think that is so? Do you think black people are inherently more violent and criminal than white people? If so, why?

GoPack2008 said:

---

Pacfanweb said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

Bas2020 said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Bas2020 said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

I just don't get why any of these reforms are so controversial, or why Republicans are the primary opposition. Cops are agents of the state. If you're concerned with government power and overreach, you should be concerned about Police reforms. They are the enforcement arm of government power. And if "99.9%" of officers are great then these changes are only going to affect the remainder who have no business having a badge and gun

---

Republicans aren't against reforms , heck that is what Tim Scott has been working on for years with opportunity zones and other reforms . What Republicans don't like is cities burning to the ground and looted under what often is a false racial narrative perpetuated by the media . You remember the Michael Brown hoax with hands up don't shoot that was complete lies, even the Obama DOJ came to that conclusion . Stop with the race baiting at every turn and many more people will come to your side .

---

Police killings caught on video are the most severe, visible, visceral bad outcome for black Americans in criminal justice so they're going to be a lightning rod. That's not surprising.

Make no mistake, there's no "false narrative" about outcomes for black Americans in policing and criminal justice in this country.

Go look at rates of stops, searches, charges, convictions, false convictions, paroles, or whatever you want to look at, and make the case that bias in the system is a "false narrative."

THAT is what black America is furious about.

---

Yeah, I'm not sure why anyone would even try to argue against your points anymore. I get people being angry about the reactionary violence in the streets. Its scary to all of us.
But listen to some of these black adults in positions of power / influence who have been stopped, frisked, roughed up, questioned, etc for doing nothing. Listen to a person who is black and that you respect talk about how he has to tell his sons how to be careful if ever stopped by a cop, even if they did nothing wrong.
As a dad, as a citizen, as a "Christian", as a _____, how do those things not make any of us saddened and angry?

We can all bicker about the men who have been caught in these videos dying at the hands of cops....some were bad guys. Few were saints. Many of them acted out in a way that absolutely put them in position to get hurt.
But....if you've grown up as a lesser citizen --- and you've seen this forever....and then you see TV images of cops shooting a black man while other cops walk by a white crazed teen with a rifle....why would you not be angry?

---

I agree and to me, police brutality is a different topic than systemic racism/discrimination.

While we're on that topic though, what about the Lumbee Indians, my race, who the government won't federally recognize. Imagine how it feels to be told by the government you aren't real, or don't exist.

That's kind of discrimination right? But hey, who cares about us?

---

Dude, I'm fully in support of the Lumbee Indians. Grew up one county over from Robeson county. What you describe is ABSOLUTELY discrimination, and the very definition of systemic racism.

Black people protesting for their rights doesn't negatively impact youthey're opposing the same power structures and institutions that have hurt the Lumbee people.

---

But this isn't a black issue here. Just like I don't view it as a native american issue. This is police brutality.

I'm not sure why they are lumped together.

---

Because police brutality happens to black people, per capita, WAY more often than it does to white people.

Because policing in America has often disproportionately harmed black people.

You can't fully separate the two issues.

---

Why are you using per capita? Why not use the % of interactions with police which would give you a much better data point ? Blacks kill blacks and blacks kill whites at a much higher rate than any other race it's not even close .

---

I don't think black people are inherently more criminal than white people, so I use per capita. Do you think black people are inherently more criminal than white people?

---

If they aren't, then why do they commit crime at such a disproportionate amount relative to their percentage of the population?

They commit half, or just over half of all murders. They kill more people total in a typical year, and they kill more whites than whites kill blacks.

It's not just that one category, either. In most all violent crime categories, the percentage of blacks that commit them is WAY out of whack with the 13% they comprise of our population.

So I don't see how you can make that statement.

They don't murder so many people year after year because the police bother them more.

---

I'm not sure your numbers are accurate, but I'll dig into that tomorrow. Certainly context matters, and you can contort things in all sorts of ways. Most murders are also committed by men. You and I are both men. Does that make us more prone to violence?

Let's assume, for the sake of simplicity, that all of your statements are correct.

Why do you think that is so? Do you think black people are inherently more violent and criminal than white people? If so, why?

---

Yes, it's not debatable that men are more prone to violence. Testosterone and all that.

The numbers are accurate. You can take it to the bank.

Now, it depends on what you mean by "inherently".

If all other external factors are identical other than race, then I can't tell you if they'd be more likely to commit crimes.

But everyone's average financial situation isn't the same. And poor people tend to commit more crimes.

So you'd think just based on that, that since black people tend to be poor at a higher rate, they'd commit more crime. And they do. WAY out of proportion to their population percentage. That much isn't debatable.

Now, there are roughly 25 million whites in poverty, compared to over 9 million blacks in poverty.

Black poverty rate is double...20% to 10%....but there are a LOT more whites in poverty.

In fact, there are only 44 million-ish blacks, total. There's well over half that number of whites in poverty.

Yet blacks commit half the murders.

Not sure what other conclusion I'm supposed to come up with. If it was just poverty that was the problem, you'd think there would be a hell of a lot more killings by whites, who have nearly 3x the number of people in poverty.

Obviously the crime rate among poor whites is also higher....but if they were just as violent, there should be more deaths caused by poor whites since there are almost 3X as many of them as there are poor blacks.

But that's not the case.

"According to the US Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with Whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for African Americans was almost eight times higher than Whites, and the victim rate six times higher."

"According to the National Crime Victimization Survey in 2002, robberies with white victims and black offenders were more than 12 times more common than vice versa.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-53][53][/url][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-54][54][/url]"

"Of the 822,671 arrests for non-aggravated assault, 31.4% were black and 18.4% Hispanic."

Civilized said:

---

Pacfanweb said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

I don't think black people are inherently more criminal than white people, so I use per capita. Do you think black people are inherently more criminal than white people?

---

If they aren't, then why do they commit crime at such a disproportionate amount relative to their percentage of the population?

They commit half, or just over half of all murders. They kill more people total in a typical year, and they kill more whites than whites kill blacks.

It's not just that one category, either. In most all violent crime categories, the percentage of blacks that commit them is WAY out of whack with the 13% they comprise of our population.

So I don't see how you can make that statement.

They don't murder so many people year after year because the police bother them more.

---

Me and you have gone back on forth on this a bunch so I won't belabor the point but we don't know what rates blacks or whites commit crimes (unless it's surveyable like drug use). We just know what rates they're convicted of crimes.

I would LOVE to see what "crime rates" looked like if the white community was policed with the same intensity as the black community, and absent the charging bias, jury bias, and wrongful conviction disparity in criminal justice. And also absent the ridiculous disparity in drug possession arrests, despite *similar* rates of drug use in the black and white communities. (I know we've gone back and forth about that too but no matter how you slice it the rates of use are much more similar than the rates of arrest/conviction would have you believe).

I'm not saying that there wouldn't still be a disparity because poverty and crime are inextricably linked and black Americans are more likely to live in poverty, but the disparity in apparent criminality wouldn't look the same as it does today.

---

As I've said before:

The black communities are policed more because that's where most of the 911 calls come from.

Police aren't out cruising in North Ridge or Wakefield or Brier Creek because there's not any crime in those places to speak of.
It'd be a waste of resources.

There aren't drug deals, assaults, robberies, shootings, prostitution, etc, going on in those neighborhoods and the police just aren't there to catch them.

No, it's just not happening. If it was, there would be 911 calls and they'd be there. Those crimes aren't going unpunished in those places because of a lack of patrolling. They just aren't there to begin with.

Instead, they go where the calls come from, and that tends to be poor areas.

I don't see how that's even debatable.

Now yeah, if the police patrol black neighborhoods less, than sure....they'll probably catch less criminals. And pretty soon you'd have the black community saying the police were racist because they don't care if there's crime in their part of town.
Hell, there's already info that shows that in all these "defund the police" places, the people who actually live in the poor areas DON'T want the police defunded or to stop patrolling.

They really can't win.

Oh, and it's not just the convictions that are higher for blacks, the arrests are higher, too. We don't know the true # for either race, but we know beyond any shadow of a doubt that it's higher for blacks.

And as I've said before, the conviction rate is easy to explain: It's because of money. If I get pissed and beat the hell out of someone, I can afford a better attorney than a poor person's public defender will be. And it's more likely I will get a better outcome. I think that's pretty simply it.

I bet poor whites don't do much better than poor blacks do. Whites overall? Yeah, but if there was a way to look at just the poor ones, I bet it wouldn't be much different.

cowboypack02 said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

cowboypack02 said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

Pacfanweb said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

Pacfanweb said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

DrummerboyWolf said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

DrummerboyWolf said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

You wouldn't let your son be a cop but you'd be proud of him for being a vigilante and carrying a gun underage? I'm confused.

I'm sorry, but why does ANY civilian feel the need or responsibility or capability to go to a massive protest, carry a firearm, and "protect" things? It's total insanity. And 17 year olds aren't known to be the most sensible actors, so there's absolutely some responsibility on the parents here.

---

Because the government agencies called with protecting stuff are not doing their jobs. The police are either told to stand down or are overwhelmed. Had the Governor of Wisconsin brought in the National Guard after the first night of protests then this doesn't happen. Unfortunately it's going to happen more. People are going to defend their property with their 2nd Amendment rights. If the crap starts happening in my neighborhood, I will be locked, ready, and loaded.

The young man was part of a group of militia who's job was to protect property. I don't see how they can get him for anything but manslaughter and that will be a tough road too. He was in fear of his life. The police are not going to show up, so I cannot blame him for defending himself. If more evidence comes out that puts him in a different light, then maybe they can get the murder charge but with what I have seen, self defense is his right and it will be hard to convict him.

---

Let's be honest: Militias are gangs.

Nobody goes across state lines with a rifle to protect anythingthey are looking to get into something.

It speaks volumes that we are giving more thought to this kid's motives than those of Jacob Blake. It's actually the entire point.

---

Your not being honest with your comment. Not all militias are gangs. It's in the Constitution. He wasn't the only one there packing. There were other militia members too. They said they were there to protect property.

Jacob Blake had warrants against him. He did not obey the police officers and paid the price. Oh and he had knife too. They did not shoot him because he was black. They shot him because he was a threat and the officer knew he had warrants against him. And don't try to paint George Floyd as a saint. He had been in prison many times including put a gun to a pregnant women's belly during a crime. If you don't want the police to shoot you, don't commit a crime and don't resist when they try to arrest you for those crimes. Pretty simple to do.

---

That's a very interesting read of the second amendment, which allows for a well regulated militia. These yahoos don't count.

This guy shot people and the cops WALKED BY HIM. But they HAVE to shoot Jacob Blake???

Jacob Blake never shot anyone.

---

Did that guy fight police? Did he not comply? Did he do anything that would increase the odds that he might get shot?

Jacob Blake did all that.

Now, if you want to argue if he SHOULD have been shot, fine, but the other situation is in no way comparable. And it wasn't because the kid was white, either. He complied. And didn't get shot. That's how it goes, 99.999% of the time.

---

He had literally just killed two people and definitely had a firearm in his possession.

---

Again: Did he resist arrest? Did he comply? Did he give the cops any reason to shoot him?

Having potentially committed a crime previously isn't a reason to shoot him. Actively resisting arrest might well be, though.

So....did he do any of these things? Or did he comply?

---

Are you arguing that resisting arrest is a reason for the police to shoot someone 7 times in the back?

This is my point. You're coming up with justifications for one situation that are different than the other.

The white guy with a gun who just shot people was treated differently than a black guy without a gun who simply walked away from the cops. That is why people are protesting.

---

Here is the difference...if the guy had gotten to his vehicle pulled out a gun...then shot and killed both of the officers no one that is protesting would care....you wouldn't care.

The fact of the matter is that the police were called on the guy...he resisted arrest...he was tased and it didn't stop him...the police tried to restrain him and that didn't stop him...he had a knife on him walking to the vehicle..and then went in the door of the car before he was shot

At what point do you think that the guy who was shot is at fault here. He escalated the situation several times before he was shot. There are at least 4 to 5 points in the situation where he could of stopped and it would of prevented everything that happened...but he didn't.

At some point you need to be able to look at the situation objectively and say that this didn't need to happen and it wasn't the cops fault. Until you have the ability to do that then you are going to think that every situation like this is the cop's fault...but it's not. Quite honestly no amount of debate with you is going to change that.

---

The cops pulled out their guns and shot him seven times. He did nothing that came anywhere close to warranting that kind of response

Are you telling me that two cops weren't capable of tackling him and restraining him? Or, if he resists arrest and you can't subdue him and he flees, put out a warrant for his arrest.

This woman resisted arrest every bit as much as Blake did and didn't get shot seven times:

---

The cops tried to restrain him and were unable to

The cops tased him and it didn't stop him

He was already armed with a knife and going back to his car for who knows what

He already had a warrant out for his arrest, and the cops were going to arrest him but he had other ideas

So what were the cops suppose to do here exactly?

• Let him go and chase him? Could of been a high speed chase and with kids in the car could of been very deadly to both the kids and bystanders
• Not try to stop him? What happens if he had a gun in the car? Both of the cops would of been shot and possibly killed
• Put a warrant out on him and let him know? Your just extending the inevitable confrontation with police that would of happened later on in the day.

Like i said before....if he stopped at any of these points he would still be alive

• When the police asked him to stop
• After the police tased him
• After the police tried to physically restrain him
• After the police pulled their guns out
• At any point when he was walking to the car before he opened the door.

The most easy solution to this is the simplest...don't be a criminal and have the cops called on you
The second solution is to not resist arrest
The third solution here is to not fight with the cops
The fourth solution here is to not go to your car after pulling out a weapon when the cops are trying to arrest you.


Quite frankly I don't give a damn about whatever video you are linking. Different cops, different people, different location, and a different situation. I also think that the cops showed a lot of restraint. I'd of pulled the trigger the second that the guy pulled out a knife...most of us would of. I give it to the cops for showing as much restraint as they did.

Like i said before...its pretty obvious you would of been ok if the situation hadn't of turned out as well for the cops. No need to argue that

---

Great post!

packgrad said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

packgrad said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Civilized said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

I just don't get why any of these reforms are so controversial, or why Republicans are the primary opposition. Cops are agents of the state. If you're concerned with government power and overreach, you should be concerned about Police reforms. They are the enforcement arm of government power. And if "99.9%" of officers are great then these changes are only going to affect the remainder who have no business having a badge and gun

---

It's been laid bare over the last couple of decades that Republicans aren't actually concerned with government power or overreach, they just want government power and overreach that benefits them.

And both Dems and Pubs like to tax and spend, they just like to spend on different stuff.

Pubs like to spend big on the military and prisons and drug law enforcement and capital punishment. These foci and expenditures illustrate what their view of "justice" is.

Viewed through that lens, it's easy to see why we are where we are.

---

These points are a big reason why I stopped considering myself a Republican in my early 20s. A lot of Libertarians are kooks but at least they're intellectually consistent

---

You stopped being a Republican because republicans liked to spend money on military, prisons, law enforcement, and capital punishment (LOL, seriously Republicans LIKE to spend money on capital punishment???? It is staggering how much the leftists lie on this board)? I'm not sure you were ever a republican if you were offended by money spent on these things.

I'd love to hear civilized's take on what Democrats LIKE to spend their money on and how that's why we are where we are.

---

Yes, I grew up a Republican with Republican parents. Econ was my 2nd major at State and I spent a lot of time on Austrian economics. You can call me a "leftist" but frankly it's laughable.

And yes I left the Republican party largely due to the massive hypocrasy I saw within the party, especially when it comes to government spending. I'm one of the lonely few who actually cares deeply about the national debt. And now we have Trump who is as "big government" as they come

---

I wasn't referring to you as a leftist fwiw.

---

Apologies then is I misread that part of your post.

And yes, the capital punishment part of that post is not accurate IMO. But in forum discussion its difficult to respond to every single item, point by point.

GoPack2008 said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

packgrad said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Civilized said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

I just don't get why any of these reforms are so controversial, or why Republicans are the primary opposition. Cops are agents of the state. If you're concerned with government power and overreach, you should be concerned about Police reforms. They are the enforcement arm of government power. And if "99.9%" of officers are great then these changes are only going to affect the remainder who have no business having a badge and gun

---

It's been laid bare over the last couple of decades that Republicans aren't actually concerned with government power or overreach, they just want government power and overreach that benefits them.

And both Dems and Pubs like to tax and spend, they just like to spend on different stuff.

Pubs like to spend big on the military and prisons and drug law enforcement and capital punishment. These foci and expenditures illustrate what their view of "justice" is.

Viewed through that lens, it's easy to see why we are where we are.

---

These points are a big reason why I stopped considering myself a Republican in my early 20s. A lot of Libertarians are kooks but at least they're intellectually consistent

---

You stopped being a Republican because republicans liked to spend money on military, prisons, law enforcement, and capital punishment (LOL, seriously Republicans LIKE to spend money on capital punishment???? It is staggering how much the leftists lie on this board)? I'm not sure you were ever a republican if you were offended by money spent on these things.

I'd love to hear civilized's take on what Democrats LIKE to spend their money on and how that's why we are where we are.

---

Yes, I grew up a Republican with Republican parents. Econ was my 2nd major at State and I spent a lot of time on Austrian economics. You can call me a "leftist" but frankly it's laughable.

And yes I left the Republican party largely due to the massive hypocrasy I saw within the party, especially when it comes to government spending. I'm one of the lonely few who actually cares deeply about the national debt. And now we have Trump who is as "big government" as they come

---

Man it's refreshing to see someone who actually sticks to principles.

I disagree with but understand the core conservative positions around economics, fiscal policy, etc. I think that disagreement between sides has led to healthy debate that has moved our country forward in a measured fashion.

The stuff we see now? It's so far gone.

---

I'm a pragmatist first, Libertarian second. Like I'm not one of those people who argues to privatize literally everything. But Libertarianism is the backbone to how I view things

GoPack2008 said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Bas2020 said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

I 100 percent agree.

Reminds me of Tony Tempa from 2016. White man died in similar fashion. The cops thought he was snoring. Unreal.

---

Tony Timpa death should have been a firestorm because they were cracking jokes over his body . That's to me another point when race didn't matter. Many of these incidents are minority cops like in Baltimore but the race card is still used . Makes no sense . Bad policing and racism are not the same thing - the media wants you to believe it is .

---

The Tempa case is a ridiculous lack of situational awareness, which goes to the training and maturity of the officers.

You say race didn't matter in the Tempa case, and you're probably right.

The question is, how can you tell when race DOES matter? What does one of those cases look like?

Police clearly fall victim to implicit biases when pulling Black Americans, otherwise they wouldn't pull them at 2x the rate of whites and search them at 4x the rate of whites. That data was gathered over 20 million traffic stops so it's very macro and paints a picture of indisputable bias.

If you looked hard at all those traffic stops, would you be able to tell on a micro level, by interviewing the officer and the driver, etc. that race mattered? My strong suspicion is that you wouldn't be able to tell. It would just seem like a normal traffic stop. But when you back up and see the whole forest not just the one tree you were up close to, patterns emerge. Just because you can't see patterns up close doesn't mean they're not there.

So if police fall victim to bias when pulling Black Americans, and they indisputably do, why wouldn't they also be subject to those same biases when deciding whether to use force, and how much force to use?

---

I think a lot of what we discuss is based on training/maturity of the cops. If we want to attempt to end police brutality (which I don't think will ever happen, but we can try), then that is where the focus should be IMO. Not looting, rioting, and protesting.

Reform and improve officers of the law. Make stiffer requirements for hiring, etc...

---

Yes. That is what the protestors want.

The fact that they are protesting is the result of how much resistance there is to such common sense ideas.

---

A lot of reforms being discussed have been pushed by activists for many years. There was just never enough momentum to push lawmakers to make a change. There are people (and police unions) who fight for the status quo and so far they've had more influence.
People need to remember that when we discuss the protests/riots we aren't dealing with a monolithic group, but many smaller groups of people. The media does an awful job with this. You have a ton of people who are really protesting peacefully. They want change and don't think their voices will be heard if they don't demonstrate.
Some amount of these protesters are so angry they are making completely irrational decisions, harassing people in restaurants for example. But the most violent elements are opportunists and outside agitators. Criminals are known to show up to protests they don't really care about just to smash and grab. Antifa and similar groups often come in from other areas with the purpose of stoking tensions. A lot of antifa are just nobodies playing tough, but they have hardcore supporters who WANT violence to escalate to further their desire for a revolution. And finally you have various right wing groups sprinkled in to just further complicate the situation.

I just don't understand why BLM aren't winning over more people.

James Henderson said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Pacfanweb said:

---

GoPack2008 said:

---

Yeah, it was the fentanyl, not the knee on his neck for nearly 9 minutes.

Lol.

---

Correct. A knee on your neck doesn't make you have a heart attack.

95% blockage, and being on Fentanyl and Meth does. Now, the SITUATION might have helped trigger the heart attack...sure.

But a healthy person who's not on hard drugs isn't having a heart attack in that same position.

And I see you've backtracked on him resisting arrest. Good, because he 100% did.

---

Isn't the most probable assessment of this that the knee on his neck for 9 minutes AND the drugs in his system AND his heart health all contributed to his death?

The challenge for both the defense and the prosecution is in proving (or casting doubt on) the extent to which the officer's actions and inactions led to Floyd's death.

To me, the officer's apparent lack of concern for Floyd's health after he was not moving and not breathing for several minutes is more damning than the initial act of holding him down with his knee.

---

I 100 percent agree.

Reminds me of Tony Tempa from 2016. White man died in similar fashion. The cops thought he was snoring. Unreal.

---

One of these events created national protest...and most people have never heard of the other....i wonder what the difference is?

Most of BLM are peaceful protesters.