wilmwolf80 said:

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"What is the end game here?"

That is the question I keep coming back to. Justice for Floyd is the stated purpose of the protests. But justice comes from the justice system, which isn't going to happen tomorrow. Do we want an eye for an eye, where we drag the cop out into the street and put a knee on his neck until he dies? Because that's not how the country is supposed to work. And yes, that has happened to people of color many times in the past, but it was wrong then and would be wrong now. That's not justice, it is vengeance.

According to an article I saw yesterday, the goal of the Raleigh protestors is the ouster of the RPD chief, for several vague reasons. Ok, so do we fire every police chief in this country? Does that solve the problem, or create a bigger one?

Another group said that they want to abolish the police. OK. So who protects the innocent? Who arrests the criminals? Are the protestors going to do that? Are they our new police force? A lack of a police force isn't freedom, it is anarchy. Maybe the younger generation is caught up in post apocalyptic fantasies from all the zombie shows and movies where vigilante groups armed with shotguns and baseball bats rule their own enclaves. I don't know. You have to have police, you have to have laws and people to enforce them. Millennia of information from our past says that utopia doesn't exist, and that human nature requires there to be organization and structure to keep us from devolving into chaos.

If the goal is police reform, as it should be IMO, that's not going to happen tonight or tomorrow. Are we going to keep burning down our cities until it does happen? Because if the answer is yes, the country will be a pile of rubble in weeks. At some point in time you have to have faith and give time for change to happen.

I am outraged with what happened to George Floyd, but it isn't because he was black and the cop was white. I am outraged with it because it was inhumane and unjust and he didn't deserve to die because he is a human being. Until our humanity becomes the narrative, until the races of the people involved isn't the lead on the story, I don't think anything will change.

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packgrad said:

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PackBacker07 said:

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I would argue this worst part of this situation is the ongoing deaths at the hands of police, not Democratic leaders. But to each their own.

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I would argue the police murdered, shot, run over, and assaulted during these riots are part of the worst part of this situation as well. But to each their own.

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packgrad said:

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IseWolf22 said:

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packgrad said:

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PackBacker07 said:

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I would argue this worst part of this situation is the ongoing deaths at the hands of police, not Democratic leaders. But to each their own.

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I would argue the police murdered, shot, run over, and assaulted during these riots are part of the worst part of this situation as well. But to each their own.

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Would appreciate a link for any officer murdered. I have not seen any officer killed yet. Anyone injured during this unrest is a tragedy.
Social Media definitely skews against Police right now, and I don't doubt many officers have been hurt by the mob, but I've also seen videos of Police cars hitting protesters, tear gas and rubber bullets fired at peaceful protesters, people being approached and pepper spayed without warning, Press members being assaulted or threatened, etc.

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Cool. I've seen videos of rioters throwing bricks against the back of police officers heads. I've seen videos of cars running over police officers. I've seen videos of "protesters" with rifles shooting at the police. I've seen videos of bricks and bottles being thrown at police. I've seen videos of police being attacked by multiple people. I've seen videos of press not leaving when they were instructed to leave.

The LV officer that was shot in the back of the head has not died yet. He's just in grave condition. I thought he died.

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IseWolf22 said:

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packgrad said:

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IseWolf22 said:

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packgrad said:

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PackBacker07 said:

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I would argue this worst part of this situation is the ongoing deaths at the hands of police, not Democratic leaders. But to each their own.

---

I would argue the police murdered, shot, run over, and assaulted during these riots are part of the worst part of this situation as well. But to each their own.

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Would appreciate a link for any officer murdered. I have not seen any officer killed yet. Anyone injured during this unrest is a tragedy.
Social Media definitely skews against Police right now, and I don't doubt many officers have been hurt by the mob, but I've also seen videos of Police cars hitting protesters, tear gas and rubber bullets fired at peaceful protesters, people being approached and pepper spayed without warning, Press members being assaulted or threatened, etc.

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Cool. I've seen videos of rioters throwing bricks against the back of police officers heads. I've seen videos of cars running over police officers. I've seen videos of "protesters" with rifles shooting at the police. I've seen videos of bricks and bottles being thrown at police. I've seen videos of police being attacked by multiple people. I've seen videos of press not leaving when they were instructed to leave.

The LV officer that was shot in the back of the head has not died yet. He's just in grave condition. I thought he died.

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Funny how media presented to people can be so different eh? I'm well aware there was violence against officers, but the videos that have come to me have been entirely been about officers assaulting protesters.
I had not heard of the cop in LV. I pray he recovers. Violence against officers is not the solution to violence by officers.

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packgrad said:

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PackBacker07 said:

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I would argue this worst part of this situation is the ongoing deaths at the hands of police, not Democratic leaders. But to each their own.

---

I would argue the police murdered, shot, run over, and assaulted during these riots are part of the worst part of this situation as well. But to each their own.

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King Leary said:

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packgrad said:

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PackBacker07 said:

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I would argue this worst part of this situation is the ongoing deaths at the hands of police, not Democratic leaders. But to each their own.

---

I would argue the police murdered, shot, run over, and assaulted during these riots are part of the worst part of this situation as well. But to each their own.

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Worst part is that it's 2020 and we still have racists in this country. We all need to be better

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Packchem91 said:

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King Leary said:

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packgrad said:

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PackBacker07 said:

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I would argue this worst part of this situation is the ongoing deaths at the hands of police, not Democratic leaders. But to each their own.

---

I would argue the police murdered, shot, run over, and assaulted during these riots are part of the worst part of this situation as well. But to each their own.

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Worst part is that it's 2020 and we still have racists in this country. We all need to be better

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We do; we always will. Worse is when you have leaders who facilitate it. Trump has repeatedly thru his presidency said things that create flaming based on skin color, nationality, ethnicity. Its one thing when one of us do that (still bad)...but when the freaking POTUS -- the most powerful man in the world, can't simply convey basic decency w/o casting a stone at someone, it just makes things worse.
I voted for the guy. I didn't want to, but the GOP gave him to us. I don't know that I can do it again. Call me crazy, but "decency" should be a part of a the gig as president.

**The Dems have it in their wheelhouse to run him out of office in NOV, but they've nominated a man who is sadly losing his mental faculties....and if he nominates someone like Warren as VP, he may manage to lose this anyway.

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packgrad said:

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Packchem91 said:

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King Leary said:

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packgrad said:

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PackBacker07 said:

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I would argue this worst part of this situation is the ongoing deaths at the hands of police, not Democratic leaders. But to each their own.

---

I would argue the police murdered, shot, run over, and assaulted during these riots are part of the worst part of this situation as well. But to each their own.

---

Worst part is that it's 2020 and we still have racists in this country. We all need to be better

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We do; we always will. Worse is when you have leaders who facilitate it. Trump has repeatedly thru his presidency said things that create flaming based on skin color, nationality, ethnicity. Its one thing when one of us do that (still bad)...but when the freaking POTUS -- the most powerful man in the world, can't simply convey basic decency w/o casting a stone at someone, it just makes things worse.
I voted for the guy. I didn't want to, but the GOP gave him to us. I don't know that I can do it again. Call me crazy, but "decency" should be a part of a the gig as president.

**The Dems have it in their wheelhouse to run him out of office in NOV, but they've nominated a man who is sadly losing his mental faculties....and if he nominates someone like Warren as VP, he may manage to lose this anyway.

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I'm the opposite. I didn't vote for him the first time. I probably will this time. The main reason I don't want to is I don't want to listen to the media and social media cry wolf for another 4 years. I think they are going to continue pushing more moderate people right though. The left is so ****ing crazy right now there is no way I will vote for any of them any time soon. Hell I voted for Cooper. That was a horrible mistake.

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Packchem91 said:

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packgrad said:

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Packchem91 said:

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King Leary said:

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packgrad said:

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PackBacker07 said:

---

I would argue this worst part of this situation is the ongoing deaths at the hands of police, not Democratic leaders. But to each their own.

---

I would argue the police murdered, shot, run over, and assaulted during these riots are part of the worst part of this situation as well. But to each their own.

---

Worst part is that it's 2020 and we still have racists in this country. We all need to be better

---

We do; we always will. Worse is when you have leaders who facilitate it. Trump has repeatedly thru his presidency said things that create flaming based on skin color, nationality, ethnicity. Its one thing when one of us do that (still bad)...but when the freaking POTUS -- the most powerful man in the world, can't simply convey basic decency w/o casting a stone at someone, it just makes things worse.
I voted for the guy. I didn't want to, but the GOP gave him to us. I don't know that I can do it again. Call me crazy, but "decency" should be a part of a the gig as president.

**The Dems have it in their wheelhouse to run him out of office in NOV, but they've nominated a man who is sadly losing his mental faculties....and if he nominates someone like Warren as VP, he may manage to lose this anyway.

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I'm the opposite. I didn't vote for him the first time. I probably will this time. The main reason I don't want to is I don't want to listen to the media and social media cry wolf for another 4 years. I think they are going to continue pushing more moderate people right though. The left is so ****ing crazy right now there is no way I will vote for any of them any time soon. Hell I voted for Cooper. That was a horrible mistake.

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Policy-wise, many of us probably are better off today $$$....or at least, were until Covid. And I get the media angle, and trust me I have as much despise for them as for any politician. So crooked (and amazing self-righteous at the same time).

But I just can't stand to see a person so petty be responsible for representing this country. The whole scene yesterday of going to the cathedral across the street was an embarrassment, but it is just that -- embarrassing. Some of the things he actually says are degrading and disgusting.

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IseWolf22 said:

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packgrad said:

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PackBacker07 said:

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I would argue this worst part of this situation is the ongoing deaths at the hands of police, not Democratic leaders. But to each their own.

---

I would argue the police murdered, shot, run over, and assaulted during these riots are part of the worst part of this situation as well. But to each their own.

---

Would appreciate a link for any officer murdered. I have not seen any officer killed yet. Anyone injured during this unrest is a tragedy.
Social Media definitely skews against Police right now, and I don't doubt many officers have been hurt by the mob, but I've also seen videos of Police cars hitting protesters, tear gas and rubber bullets fired at peaceful protesters, people being approached and pepper spayed without warning, Press members being assaulted or threatened, etc.

---

wilmwolf80 said:

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"What is the end game here?"

That is the question I keep coming back to. Justice for Floyd is the stated purpose of the protests. But justice comes from the justice system, which isn't going to happen tomorrow. Do we want an eye for an eye, where we drag the cop out into the street and put a knee on his neck until he dies? Because that's not how the country is supposed to work. And yes, that has happened to people of color many times in the past, but it was wrong then and would be wrong now. That's not justice, it is vengeance.

According to an article I saw yesterday, the goal of the Raleigh protestors is the ouster of the RPD chief, for several vague reasons. Ok, so do we fire every police chief in this country? Does that solve the problem, or create a bigger one?

Another group said that they want to abolish the police. OK. So who protects the innocent? Who arrests the criminals? Are the protestors going to do that? Are they our new police force? A lack of a police force isn't freedom, it is anarchy. Maybe the younger generation is caught up in post apocalyptic fantasies from all the zombie shows and movies where vigilante groups armed with shotguns and baseball bats rule their own enclaves. I don't know. You have to have police, you have to have laws and people to enforce them. Millennia of information from our past says that utopia doesn't exist, and that human nature requires there to be organization and structure to keep us from devolving into chaos.

If the goal is police reform, as it should be IMO, that's not going to happen tonight or tomorrow. Are we going to keep burning down our cities until it does happen? Because if the answer is yes, the country will be a pile of rubble in weeks. At some point in time you have to have faith and give time for change to happen.

I am outraged with what happened to George Floyd, but it isn't because he was black and the cop was white. I am outraged with it because it was inhumane and unjust and he didn't deserve to die because he is a human being. Until our humanity becomes the narrative, until the races of the people involved isn't the lead on the story, I don't think anything will change.

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packgrad said:

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Chair of NYC Council Health Committee.

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packgrad said:

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Chair of NYC Council Health Committee.

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statefan91 said:

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packgrad said:

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Chair of NYC Council Health Committee.

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Yeah, that's just dumb and he's likely going to get ratio'd for that one

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caryking said:

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wilmwolf80 said:

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"What is the end game here?"

That is the question I keep coming back to. Justice for Floyd is the stated purpose of the protests. But justice comes from the justice system, which isn't going to happen tomorrow. Do we want an eye for an eye, where we drag the cop out into the street and put a knee on his neck until he dies? Because that's not how the country is supposed to work. And yes, that has happened to people of color many times in the past, but it was wrong then and would be wrong now. That's not justice, it is vengeance.

According to an article I saw yesterday, the goal of the Raleigh protestors is the ouster of the RPD chief, for several vague reasons. Ok, so do we fire every police chief in this country? Does that solve the problem, or create a bigger one?

Another group said that they want to abolish the police. OK. So who protects the innocent? Who arrests the criminals? Are the protestors going to do that? Are they our new police force? A lack of a police force isn't freedom, it is anarchy. Maybe the younger generation is caught up in post apocalyptic fantasies from all the zombie shows and movies where vigilante groups armed with shotguns and baseball bats rule their own enclaves. I don't know. You have to have police, you have to have laws and people to enforce them. Millennia of information from our past says that utopia doesn't exist, and that human nature requires there to be organization and structure to keep us from devolving into chaos.

If the goal is police reform, as it should be IMO, that's not going to happen tonight or tomorrow. Are we going to keep burning down our cities until it does happen? Because if the answer is yes, the country will be a pile of rubble in weeks. At some point in time you have to have faith and give time for change to happen.

I am outraged with what happened to George Floyd, but it isn't because he was black and the cop was white. I am outraged with it because it was inhumane and unjust and he didn't deserve to die because he is a human being. Until our humanity becomes the narrative, until the races of the people involved isn't the lead on the story, I don't think anything will change.

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I think this is the most articulate and thoughtful post I've seen on this subject.

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packgrad said:

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