Packchem91 said:

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packgrad said:

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Packchem91 said:

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packgrad said:

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I see the attention ***** is trying to make something else about him. Lol.

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No, I made it about a poster's blatant hypocrisy and how that poster only wants news that fits his narrow little perspective on the world, which is not necessarily unique anymore, but is why our divide gets worse .

YOU are the one who has to call names and make it about me.

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I didn't say anything about your Fox News post. How can there be hypocrisy when there was nothing said?. But you continue lying. It's what you do. I know you need attention.

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Funny, this is from you earlier today. Back to back posts from me, them you.

I reference the news story from my Fox News post last night (several more posts up) and you immediately respond with what is below in the screen shot?

So if not responding to me, who exactly were your responding to again?

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I was referencing your incredibly stupid point about if antifa was making bomb threats, when antifa makes bomb threats all the time. I have explained my post. This thread is not about you, so I'm done engaging your attention *****dom on this subject.

"Paul Sperry Sources say Hillary Clinton operatives have been secretly working with Archives officials and the Justice Department for several months and are behind the push for the investigation of Trump as "revenge" for Clinton being investigated for mishandling classified materials in her Emailgate scandal. "The Clinton machine has been agitating for this since January," said one source familiar with the matter,"

Manny Sanguine said:

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dogplasma said:

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caryking said:

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A Trump lawyer said, this morning, that the President can absolutely designate any document as, unclassified, without any documentation. She went on to say that she wished better documentation would happen; however, it didn't. She eluded that is could be on the Lawyers to keep up with the documentation.

So, if that is all true, no way can they indict and get a conviction. I think they have already played their hand and have to push forward. I also think that this will galvanize Trump supporters as well as independents and some Moderate Democrats hating what's happening to the country.

Remember, I'm saying this with an assumption that the lawyer, this morning, is indeed, true…

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I can't say if that's true either, but if it is, it literally makes zero sense. You don't have to document declassification of sensitive defense materials?? That would give any non-sitting President the power to declassify things at any time after the fact just by saying, "Oh yeah, I did that." Which is exactly what Trump is attempting. He's trying to redraw another hurricane forecast with his legal Sharpie, IMO. If the lawyer's claim is true, that's a crazy broken system we have.

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Beyond the question of whether declassification can actually work that way, and whether Trump actually did declassify documents that way while sitting as president, such declassification would not necessarily provide a defense with respect to the statutes listed on the search warrant.

Take 18 U.S. Code 793 (a/k/a "The Espionage Act"), for example. That statute does not refer at all to classification levels. Rather, it uses phrases like "relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation." Information designated "TS/SCI" would necessarily meet this definition.

A potential problem for Trump is that, even if he could declassify any and all documents with out any memorialization either before, during, or after, he cannot change the essential nature of the information contained in those documents. If the information met the definitions of 18 U.S. Code 793 before he declassified the document then it still met that definition after he did so.

I'm not sure how the various explanations of how and why the documents in question were supposedly declassified paint Trump in anything like a positive light (beyond a desire to get him off the hook for violating the listed statutes). If he truly was haphazardly declassifying anything that went out the door on the way to Florida - including information classified at the most sensitive levels - without any of the normal deliberative (and documented) procedures, I'm not sure how that describes him as anything but an awful steward of our national security.

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Agree completely. It's hard to understand why Trump would feel compelled to take boxes of sensitive info home with him. Just because you were President doesn't mean you own them. Or should be allowed to keep them as a souvenir. Take the towels from the White House instead.

Caryking,take your own advise and step away if you can't handle someone expressing how they feel bout someone you support!Not that serious my friend!You act as if whatever you express is law,it's not!Just saying!With that being said i love all of you people!Can'tdislike who you don't know!GoPack!!

dogplasma said:

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Manny Sanguine said:

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dogplasma said:

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caryking said:

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A Trump lawyer said, this morning, that the President can absolutely designate any document as, unclassified, without any documentation. She went on to say that she wished better documentation would happen; however, it didn't. She eluded that is could be on the Lawyers to keep up with the documentation.

So, if that is all true, no way can they indict and get a conviction. I think they have already played their hand and have to push forward. I also think that this will galvanize Trump supporters as well as independents and some Moderate Democrats hating what's happening to the country.

Remember, I'm saying this with an assumption that the lawyer, this morning, is indeed, true…

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I can't say if that's true either, but if it is, it literally makes zero sense. You don't have to document declassification of sensitive defense materials?? That would give any non-sitting President the power to declassify things at any time after the fact just by saying, "Oh yeah, I did that." Which is exactly what Trump is attempting. He's trying to redraw another hurricane forecast with his legal Sharpie, IMO. If the lawyer's claim is true, that's a crazy broken system we have.

---

Beyond the question of whether declassification can actually work that way, and whether Trump actually did declassify documents that way while sitting as president, such declassification would not necessarily provide a defense with respect to the statutes listed on the search warrant.

Take 18 U.S. Code 793 (a/k/a "The Espionage Act"), for example. That statute does not refer at all to classification levels. Rather, it uses phrases like "relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation." Information designated "TS/SCI" would necessarily meet this definition.

A potential problem for Trump is that, even if he could declassify any and all documents with out any memorialization either before, during, or after, he cannot change the essential nature of the information contained in those documents. If the information met the definitions of 18 U.S. Code 793 before he declassified the document then it still met that definition after he did so.

I'm not sure how the various explanations of how and why the documents in question were supposedly declassified paint Trump in anything like a positive light (beyond a desire to get him off the hook for violating the listed statutes). If he truly was haphazardly declassifying anything that went out the door on the way to Florida - including information classified at the most sensitive levels - without any of the normal deliberative (and documented) procedures, I'm not sure how that describes him as anything but an awful steward of our national security.

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Agree completely. It's hard to understand why Trump would feel compelled to take boxes of sensitive info home with him. Just because you were President doesn't mean you own them. Or should be allowed to keep them as a souvenir. Take the towels from the White House instead.

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I don't get that either. Unless you just take everything w/o even knowing?
I think Cary said early on in this, our document control system may be the big loser (or scariest aspect) of this....and that may turn out to be correct.

caryking said:

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"Paul Sperry Sources say Hillary Clinton operatives have been secretly working with Archives officials and the Justice Department for several months and are behind the push for the investigation of Trump as "revenge" for Clinton being investigated for mishandling classified materials in her Emailgate scandal. "The Clinton machine has been agitating for this since January," said one source familiar with the matter,"

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Thats a juicy rumor, and I don't think we should put any act of crappiness past HRC....but if true, why didn't she time it better? If she had that much pull still, just wait til he announces he's running, or better yet, wait til he's up in the polls late, or after the '24 national convention, then get all this published.
That would be much more damaging. Heck, even if true, the guy has proven to have 9 lives.....I'd love to think this would end his political career, but with 2 years to go, that seems short sighted.

Packchem91 said:

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Disgusting, assuming it's true. I know the mention of civil war has popped up on this site from time to time, but I'd hope the people who mention it would strongly denounce any of these types of actions

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fbi-bulletin-warns-dirty-bomb-threat-increasing-calls-civil-war-after-raid-mar-a-lago

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Agree, peaceful secession is a better alternative.

hokiewolf said:

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I think a lot of people are taking the bait that these are top secret documents. From what I've read this evening, there's a lot of documents that are labeled "top secret" that really shouldn't be, there's a big problem with over marking documents within government.

For the next few weeks, I think we will all be best served that as leaks and stories come out about what the documents are, we should treat that information as bull*****

The "it's got to be good, that's why they needed a warrant" is also crap. Remember, 99.9% of warrants go through. This wasn't reviewed by a judge with a jewelers loop.

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Agree. I've also heard a lot of discussion that papers don't stay top secret forever, even with a stamp on it. We'll see what happens.

hokiewolf said:

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I think a lot of people are taking the bait that these are top secret documents. From what I've read this evening, there's a lot of documents that are labeled "top secret" that really shouldn't be, there's a big problem with over marking documents within government.

For the next few weeks, I think we will all be best served that as leaks and stories come out about what the documents are, we should treat that information as bull*****

The "it's got to be good, that's why they needed a warrant" is also crap. Remember, 99.9% of warrants go through. This wasn't reviewed by a judge with a jewelers loop.

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Which speaks poorly of the judicial branch. And the FBI has a history of deception to get warrants.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/12/10/ig-report-fbi-fisa-abuse-secret-court-trump-campaign-column/4383722002/#:~:text=The%20FBI%20also%20deceived%20the%20FISA%20court%20by,report%20obliterated%20the%20credibility%20of%20the%20Steele%20dossier.

hokiewolf said:

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I think a lot of people are taking the bait that these are top secret documents. From what I've read this evening, there's a lot of documents that are labeled "top secret" that really shouldn't be, there's a big problem with over marking documents within government.

For the next few weeks, I think we will all be best served that as leaks and stories come out about what the documents are, we should treat that information as bull*****

The "it's got to be good, that's why they needed a warrant" is also crap. Remember, 99.9% of warrants go through. This wasn't reviewed by a judge with a jewelers loop.

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Hokie, that's all plausible…

caryking said:

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hokiewolf said:

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I think a lot of people are taking the bait that these are top secret documents. From what I've read this evening, there's a lot of documents that are labeled "top secret" that really shouldn't be, there's a big problem with over marking documents within government.

For the next few weeks, I think we will all be best served that as leaks and stories come out about what the documents are, we should treat that information as bull*****

The "it's got to be good, that's why they needed a warrant" is also crap. Remember, 99.9% of warrants go through. This wasn't reviewed by a judge with a jewelers loop.

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Hokie, that's all plausible…

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I also think what you posted about the Hilary Clinton revenge plot is plausible as well. The fact that the Clinton campaign had direct access to the FBI would not discredit that theory

hokiewolf said:

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caryking said:

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hokiewolf said:

---

I think a lot of people are taking the bait that these are top secret documents. From what I've read this evening, there's a lot of documents that are labeled "top secret" that really shouldn't be, there's a big problem with over marking documents within government.

For the next few weeks, I think we will all be best served that as leaks and stories come out about what the documents are, we should treat that information as bull*****

The "it's got to be good, that's why they needed a warrant" is also crap. Remember, 99.9% of warrants go through. This wasn't reviewed by a judge with a jewelers loop.

---

Hokie, that's all plausible…

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I also think what you posted about the Hilary Clinton revenge plot is plausible as well. The fact that the Clinton campaign had direct access to the FBI would not discredit that theory

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At the same time, it could all be bogus…. So, as I've said, plenty of time before, let's see how this plays out. If Trump truly did something wrong, he should be held accountable, regardless of how others have been held…

At some point, an accountability of elected official, has to be held accountable to us.

caryking said:

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hokiewolf said:

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caryking said:

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hokiewolf said:

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I think a lot of people are taking the bait that these are top secret documents. From what I've read this evening, there's a lot of documents that are labeled "top secret" that really shouldn't be, there's a big problem with over marking documents within government.

For the next few weeks, I think we will all be best served that as leaks and stories come out about what the documents are, we should treat that information as bull*****

The "it's got to be good, that's why they needed a warrant" is also crap. Remember, 99.9% of warrants go through. This wasn't reviewed by a judge with a jewelers loop.

---

Hokie, that's all plausible…

---

I also think what you posted about the Hilary Clinton revenge plot is plausible as well. The fact that the Clinton campaign had direct access to the FBI would not discredit that theory

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At the same time, it could all be bogus…. So, as I've said, plenty of time before, let's see how this plays out. If Trump truly did something wrong, he should be held accountable, regardless of how others have been held…

At some point, an accountability of elected official, has to be held accountable to us.

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All that is good and I'd like to think all think we should give this time to play out. But then stop the silly talk about civil war and all that, taht serves zero valuable service in this ongoing national debate

Note: this was intended as a general statement, not an attack on you.
I also would Ike to see Trump issue a pleas to his supporters to lay off the FBI amd taht any threats will not be tolerated

Packchem91 said:

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caryking said:

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hokiewolf said:

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caryking said:

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hokiewolf said:

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I think a lot of people are taking the bait that these are top secret documents. From what I've read this evening, there's a lot of documents that are labeled "top secret" that really shouldn't be, there's a big problem with over marking documents within government.

For the next few weeks, I think we will all be best served that as leaks and stories come out about what the documents are, we should treat that information as bull*****

The "it's got to be good, that's why they needed a warrant" is also crap. Remember, 99.9% of warrants go through. This wasn't reviewed by a judge with a jewelers loop.

---

Hokie, that's all plausible…

---

I also think what you posted about the Hilary Clinton revenge plot is plausible as well. The fact that the Clinton campaign had direct access to the FBI would not discredit that theory

---

At the same time, it could all be bogus…. So, as I've said, plenty of time before, let's see how this plays out. If Trump truly did something wrong, he should be held accountable, regardless of how others have been held…

At some point, an accountability of elected official, has to be held accountable to us.

---

All that is good and I'd like to think all think we should give this time to play out. But then stop the silly talk about civil war and all that, taht serves zero valuable service in this ongoing national debate

Note: this was intended as a general statement, not an attack on you.
I also would Ike to see Trump issue a pleas to his supporters to lay off the FBI amd taht any threats will not be tolerated

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Being that a conversation about civil war, is an opinion of possibilities, why do have to say it's silly?

Edit: I see where you said it's not an attack on me…

caryking said:

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Packchem91 said:

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caryking said:

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hokiewolf said:

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caryking said:

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hokiewolf said:

---

I think a lot of people are taking the bait that these are top secret documents. From what I've read this evening, there's a lot of documents that are labeled "top secret" that really shouldn't be, there's a big problem with over marking documents within government.

For the next few weeks, I think we will all be best served that as leaks and stories come out about what the documents are, we should treat that information as bull*****

The "it's got to be good, that's why they needed a warrant" is also crap. Remember, 99.9% of warrants go through. This wasn't reviewed by a judge with a jewelers loop.

---

Hokie, that's all plausible…

---

I also think what you posted about the Hilary Clinton revenge plot is plausible as well. The fact that the Clinton campaign had direct access to the FBI would not discredit that theory

---

At the same time, it could all be bogus…. So, as I've said, plenty of time before, let's see how this plays out. If Trump truly did something wrong, he should be held accountable, regardless of how others have been held…

At some point, an accountability of elected official, has to be held accountable to us.

---

All that is good and I'd like to think all think we should give this time to play out. But then stop the silly talk about civil war and all that, taht serves zero valuable service in this ongoing national debate

Note: this was intended as a general statement, not an attack on you.
I also would Ike to see Trump issue a pleas to his supporters to lay off the FBI amd taht any threats will not be tolerated

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Being that a conversation about civil war, is an opinion of possibilities, why do have to say it's silly?

Edit: I see where you said it's not an attack on me…

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You know that saying about those who fail to learn from their history…those who are talking about the idea (w/o complete condemnation) have clearly lived too sheltered a life. And fail to realize what such an action would entail.

It's kinda like people whom, every time Russia does something, suggests we bomb them off the map

I have very little doubt an indictment is fourth coming…

Packchem91 said:

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It's kinda like people whom, every time Russia does something, suggests we bomb them off the map

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You serious Clark? I haven't heard any of that stuff since the early 1980's... or are you just looking for something hyperbole?

Steve Videtich said:

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hokiewolf said:

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I think a lot of people are taking the bait that these are top secret documents. From what I've read this evening, there's a lot of documents that are labeled "top secret" that really shouldn't be, there's a big problem with over marking documents within government.

For the next few weeks, I think we will all be best served that as leaks and stories come out about what the documents are, we should treat that information as bull*****

The "it's got to be good, that's why they needed a warrant" is also crap. Remember, 99.9% of warrants go through. This wasn't reviewed by a judge with a jewelers loop.

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Agree. I've also heard a lot of discussion that papers don't stay top secret forever, even with a stamp on it. We'll see what happens.

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Steve, just make sure that you take care of that ***** Liz Cheney for all of us today...

TheStorm said:

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Packchem91 said:

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It's kinda like people whom, every time Russia does something, suggests we bomb them off the map

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You serious Clark? I haven't heard any of that stuff since the early 1980's... or are you just looking for something hyperbole?

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of course its hyperbole. I'd like to think anyone talking about civil war is just doing it to be silly as well, but I don't know....

For what it's worth - and if you even care what I think - I don't condone any of this Civil War talk whatsoever... I can see how some people might feel that way, but I think it's very dangerous rhetoric and I don't subscribe to it in any way, shape of form...

Now, if we can't have free and fair elections (one person, one vote) anymore going forward, then that becomes a different issue.

ETA: You were acting as if people still talk like that about Russia, and I was trying to figure out if you were serious or not...

TheStorm said:

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For what it's worth - and if you even care what I think - I don't condone any of this Civil War talk whatsoever... I can see how some people might feel that way, but I think it's very dangerous rhetoric and I don't subscribe to it in any way, shape of form...

Now, if we can't have free and fair elections (one person, one vote) anymore going forward, then that becomes a different issue.

ETA: You were acting as if people still talk like that about Russia, and I was trying to figure out if you were serious or not...

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No, but you're old enough to remember that kind of foolish talk. Heck, i know I said it it when i was a kid. But then you grow up and realize the impact of such actions and that this isn't Hollywood (Red Dawn!!).

100% agree with the point you made in the first para -- that was really my point, that the talk is just dangerous.

And as for the 2nd para -- clearly there is a push to ensure more people can vote, which is not a bad thing, just happens that most of the people who were not participating before are going to align with the party we don't like. I agree with the risk for fraud, but despite the millions spent since the election to prove that, other than a few small one-off scenarios, nothing.

Here is Dear Leader telling us exactly how the MARXIST PARTY will take over......

LISTEN to every word. pic.twitter.com/TJyNbKKdMu

— AG 🔥 (@Yolo304741) August 14, 2022

Add #13 as the "Mar-A-Lago Quest to Remove Trump From 2024 Ballot."



Care to refute any of this comrades?

We need one clear and consistent standard, applied to leaders of both parties.https://t.co/484rGFy7YM pic.twitter.com/WYCK33jmYc

— Jim Geraghty (@jimgeraghty) August 16, 2022

Just to make sure I'm clear... I'm not advocating for Civil War! What I'm saying is that its already begun, in a much scaled down approach. Parents going to School Board meeting demanding change, then some are escorted out the door, violently, in a few instances, was a prelude. Now, hopefully, this doesn't get any worse; however, actions down at MaraLago certainly create outrage. Just look at the nut job at the FBI field office...

None of us are going to be able to stop the craziness, if and when, it begins; however, what was the "Summer of ANTIFA/BLM"? Civil War? How was it different than a knuckle head at an FBI office? Not a lot!!!

So, Civil War is not some State vs State war that we saw, in our past; rather, its civility, of the people that erodes. That has unfortunately happened!

caryking said:

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Just to make sure I'm clear... I'm not advocating for Civil War! What I'm saying is that its already begun, in a much scaled down approach. Parents going to School Board meeting demanding change, then some are escorted out the door, violently, in a few instances, was a prelude. Now, hopefully, this doesn't get any worse; however, actions down at MaraLago certainly create outrage. Just look at the nut job at the FBI field office...

None of us are going to be able to stop the craziness, if and when, it begins; however, what was the "Summer of ANTIFA/BLM"? Civil War? How was it different than a knuckle head at an FBI office? Not a lot!!!

So, Civil War is not some State vs State war that we saw, in our past; rather, its civility, of the people that erodes. That has unfortunately happened!

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Exactly. Call it what you want. But this country has been in a "conflict" since Dear Leader came out in support of violent criminals, Freddie Gray among others, and said, "(sic) If I had a son he would look like him.." To borrow a word from the lefties... that was a dog whistle to his obedient followers that it was open season on the Capitalist's societal norms.

What happened next was a series of riots, supported and not condemned by the lefties from 2008-2020. All in the name of peace right?

I for one don't give a rat's ass what you call it but if anyone thinks that 75 million people are going to stand by and let the party that has called parents "domestic terrorists" because they don't want their kids to be taught that they are born racists, there's 147 different genders, men can get pregnant, pedophilia should be accepted as "minor attracted persons," guns should be banned, you have the right to kill babies up until and even after in some instances birth you have another thing coming.

Keep lurching further into the stupid lefties.... sooner or later when you keep calling for the thunder you get it.