Mar-A-Lago is raided by FBI agents

79,845 Views | 1092 Replies | Last: 18 hrs ago by Werewolf
BBW12OG
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Manny Sanguine said:

BBW12OG said:

I asked you this earlier...

Do you honestly think they use white out to remove the status classification on all documents.

It has already been said ad nauseam that documents may still have the classification of classified/top secret but have been declassified.

That seems to be the entire premise of your argument and that is like a dog chasing its' tail.

Turn the damn page dude.... You are talking in circles.

You seem to have some time... discuss the previous 12 BS hoaxes and enlighten us with how they were legit.
Yeah, I thought I was just dropping in for a quick post before burrowing into work, but turned into more of a conversation than expected.

Your 12/13 theses will take a bigger block of time than I can spare now. Sorry to keep you waiting. Try to relax and take your mind off it.

Now if you want me to take some time off and review your 12/13 theses, you can pay my usual hourly rate. Should only cost you a couple grand.
Nah.. I have no desire to cover your annual salary for a response that will be refuted in less than 5 minutes.
Big Bad Wolf. OG...2002

"The Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson
Manny Sanguine
How long do you want to ignore this user?
packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

BBW12OG said:

Ha Ha!! Even when faced with the proof you are still the smartest man in the room....... Not sure whether to laugh or applaud.

Do you think they "re-issue" documents? Do you think they go in with whiteout and cover up the markings on the documents? They don't.

All you are doing is taking information from headlines that the MSM propaganda machine put out to keep this BS story in front of mindless sheep. Notice how this story has all of a sudden taken a back burner and fallen out of the non-stop coverage? You know why don't you? Because it's about to blow up like the previous 12 hoaxes did.

The quickest way to know that the media has lost it's desire to run with a story is when they quit the non-stop coverage and sensationalizing it. I liken it to when there is a mass shooting and the shooter is black. Crickets. You know why that is don't you? It doesn't fit the narrative when a black person shoots several people. It's as common as the paper being delivered on Sunday. And you know that too.

It's OK.. after being butthurt so many times before I can see why you are willing to go down with the ship.

You keep kicking that football Charlie Brown...
Hooray! You proved that the president has broad authority to declassiy documents (something I have never disputed).

However, you haven't addressed the fact that any such declassification is irrelevant to the statutes listed in the warrant or the propriety of the warrant.

I guess, in keeping with the motif, I'll say: You keep holding that football, Lucy, until I return.


The statutes listed in the warrant affidavit that hasn't been released? How can you speak to the statutes and propriety of the warrant when the affidavit hasn't been released, and the DOJ is fighting the release?
The predicate statutes are listed in the search warrant that was unsealed last week.


Ok. I see what you're talking about.

But the declassification is relevant to the statutes listed in the warrant, at least as it relates to section 793.
Here's a link to 18 U.S.C. 793 and here's what I posted earlier about that statute:

Quote:

Take 18 U.S. Code 793 (a/k/a "The Espionage Act"), for example. That statute does not refer at all to classification levels. Rather, it uses phrases like "relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation." Information designated "TS/SCI" would necessarily meet this definition.

A potential problem for Trump is that, even if he could declassify any and all documents with out any memorialization either before, during, or after, he cannot change the essential nature of the information contained in those documents. If the information met the definitions of 18 U.S. Code 793 before he declassified the document then it still met that definition after he did so.
I would be interested in what you see in the statute that would provide a defense based on prior declassification of a document.


Because it's not illegal to have documents about national defense. The issue is having classified documents about national defense.
The word "classified" (or any word or phrase related specifically to classification) does not appear in the statute. What part of the statute do you see that limits is applicability to classified documents?


So going the obtuse route you're going, the DOJ can legally search your home if you have books on the F14 Tomcat and the F15 Eagle and a picture of a tank because it meets the definitions of code 793. Sure thing, pal.

The affidavit sure better show the information was to be used to the injury of the United States.

The declassification is relevant.
Is your hypothetical book about the f-14 something that would be "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation," which is part of what the statute provides as a standard? If not, then couldn't be the basis of a search warrant.

Can a document, even after declassification, still include "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation?" If yes, then documents bearing classification markings including "TS" or "TS/SCI" could be the basis of a proper search warrant.

At this point we know, without any real dispute, that documents bearing those marking were removed from Mar-a-Lago during the search. A determination of whether anyone is changed with criminal violations based on those documents would have to be based on a review of the contents of those documents. However, it seems unreasonable to say that the search has to be based on the contents of documents that had not yet been recovered or reviewed.


Yes. The books meet the criteria mentioned.

Grumman F-14 Tomcat Owners' Workshop Manual: All models 1970-2006 - Insights into operating and maintaining the US Navy's legendary variable geometry carrier-based air superiority fighter https://a.co/d/jl1N3eK

Declassification is relevant unless the propriety of the warrant isn't.
So your conception is that a book available on Amazon would be subject to The Espionage Act as "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation?" Not sure how information that is already public domain (i.e., a book for sale on Amazon) could, in any way, be "used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation" considering that such adversaries would presumably already have that public domain information.

Seems to me that information could be secret (i.e., not already in the public domain) and "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation" regardless of whether it was declassified by the president using his acknowledged powers to declassify documents. If it was secret and "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation" a minute before he declassified it, then it would still be those things a minute after he declassified it.


Are we not being obtuse anymore? Show me in the code where it differentiates books on Amazon as it relates to national defense? Seemed pretty broad in scope to me. Where in the code does it differentiate between secret and classified?

Seems to me declassification of the documents should be relevant to any objective person.
How can something in the public domain, which would presumably already be in the possession of our adversaries, be "used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation?"
packgrad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

BBW12OG said:

Ha Ha!! Even when faced with the proof you are still the smartest man in the room....... Not sure whether to laugh or applaud.

Do you think they "re-issue" documents? Do you think they go in with whiteout and cover up the markings on the documents? They don't.

All you are doing is taking information from headlines that the MSM propaganda machine put out to keep this BS story in front of mindless sheep. Notice how this story has all of a sudden taken a back burner and fallen out of the non-stop coverage? You know why don't you? Because it's about to blow up like the previous 12 hoaxes did.

The quickest way to know that the media has lost it's desire to run with a story is when they quit the non-stop coverage and sensationalizing it. I liken it to when there is a mass shooting and the shooter is black. Crickets. You know why that is don't you? It doesn't fit the narrative when a black person shoots several people. It's as common as the paper being delivered on Sunday. And you know that too.

It's OK.. after being butthurt so many times before I can see why you are willing to go down with the ship.

You keep kicking that football Charlie Brown...
Hooray! You proved that the president has broad authority to declassiy documents (something I have never disputed).

However, you haven't addressed the fact that any such declassification is irrelevant to the statutes listed in the warrant or the propriety of the warrant.

I guess, in keeping with the motif, I'll say: You keep holding that football, Lucy, until I return.


The statutes listed in the warrant affidavit that hasn't been released? How can you speak to the statutes and propriety of the warrant when the affidavit hasn't been released, and the DOJ is fighting the release?
The predicate statutes are listed in the search warrant that was unsealed last week.


Ok. I see what you're talking about.

But the declassification is relevant to the statutes listed in the warrant, at least as it relates to section 793.
Here's a link to 18 U.S.C. 793 and here's what I posted earlier about that statute:

Quote:

Take 18 U.S. Code 793 (a/k/a "The Espionage Act"), for example. That statute does not refer at all to classification levels. Rather, it uses phrases like "relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation." Information designated "TS/SCI" would necessarily meet this definition.

A potential problem for Trump is that, even if he could declassify any and all documents with out any memorialization either before, during, or after, he cannot change the essential nature of the information contained in those documents. If the information met the definitions of 18 U.S. Code 793 before he declassified the document then it still met that definition after he did so.
I would be interested in what you see in the statute that would provide a defense based on prior declassification of a document.


Because it's not illegal to have documents about national defense. The issue is having classified documents about national defense.
The word "classified" (or any word or phrase related specifically to classification) does not appear in the statute. What part of the statute do you see that limits is applicability to classified documents?


So going the obtuse route you're going, the DOJ can legally search your home if you have books on the F14 Tomcat and the F15 Eagle and a picture of a tank because it meets the definitions of code 793. Sure thing, pal.

The affidavit sure better show the information was to be used to the injury of the United States.

The declassification is relevant.
Is your hypothetical book about the f-14 something that would be "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation," which is part of what the statute provides as a standard? If not, then couldn't be the basis of a search warrant.

Can a document, even after declassification, still include "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation?" If yes, then documents bearing classification markings including "TS" or "TS/SCI" could be the basis of a proper search warrant.

At this point we know, without any real dispute, that documents bearing those marking were removed from Mar-a-Lago during the search. A determination of whether anyone is changed with criminal violations based on those documents would have to be based on a review of the contents of those documents. However, it seems unreasonable to say that the search has to be based on the contents of documents that had not yet been recovered or reviewed.


Yes. The books meet the criteria mentioned.

Grumman F-14 Tomcat Owners' Workshop Manual: All models 1970-2006 - Insights into operating and maintaining the US Navy's legendary variable geometry carrier-based air superiority fighter https://a.co/d/jl1N3eK

Declassification is relevant unless the propriety of the warrant isn't.
So your conception is that a book available on Amazon would be subject to The Espionage Act as "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation?" Not sure how information that is already public domain (i.e., a book for sale on Amazon) could, in any way, be "used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation" considering that such adversaries would presumably already have that public domain information.

Seems to me that information could be secret (i.e., not already in the public domain) and "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation" regardless of whether it was declassified by the president using his acknowledged powers to declassify documents. If it was secret and "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation" a minute before he declassified it, then it would still be those things a minute after he declassified it.


Are we not being obtuse anymore? Show me in the code where it differentiates books on Amazon as it relates to national defense? Seemed pretty broad in scope to me. Where in the code does it differentiate between secret and classified?

Seems to me declassification of the documents should be relevant to any objective person.
How can something in the public domain, which would presumably already be in the possession of our adversaries, be "used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation?"


Seriously? Just think about that question for a few minutes.




All kinds of terrorism done with information in the public domain.

This has devolved into semantic nonsense. I'm moving on.
Manny Sanguine
How long do you want to ignore this user?
packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

BBW12OG said:

Ha Ha!! Even when faced with the proof you are still the smartest man in the room....... Not sure whether to laugh or applaud.

Do you think they "re-issue" documents? Do you think they go in with whiteout and cover up the markings on the documents? They don't.

All you are doing is taking information from headlines that the MSM propaganda machine put out to keep this BS story in front of mindless sheep. Notice how this story has all of a sudden taken a back burner and fallen out of the non-stop coverage? You know why don't you? Because it's about to blow up like the previous 12 hoaxes did.

The quickest way to know that the media has lost it's desire to run with a story is when they quit the non-stop coverage and sensationalizing it. I liken it to when there is a mass shooting and the shooter is black. Crickets. You know why that is don't you? It doesn't fit the narrative when a black person shoots several people. It's as common as the paper being delivered on Sunday. And you know that too.

It's OK.. after being butthurt so many times before I can see why you are willing to go down with the ship.

You keep kicking that football Charlie Brown...
Hooray! You proved that the president has broad authority to declassiy documents (something I have never disputed).

However, you haven't addressed the fact that any such declassification is irrelevant to the statutes listed in the warrant or the propriety of the warrant.

I guess, in keeping with the motif, I'll say: You keep holding that football, Lucy, until I return.


The statutes listed in the warrant affidavit that hasn't been released? How can you speak to the statutes and propriety of the warrant when the affidavit hasn't been released, and the DOJ is fighting the release?
The predicate statutes are listed in the search warrant that was unsealed last week.


Ok. I see what you're talking about.

But the declassification is relevant to the statutes listed in the warrant, at least as it relates to section 793.
Here's a link to 18 U.S.C. 793 and here's what I posted earlier about that statute:

Quote:

Take 18 U.S. Code 793 (a/k/a "The Espionage Act"), for example. That statute does not refer at all to classification levels. Rather, it uses phrases like "relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation." Information designated "TS/SCI" would necessarily meet this definition.

A potential problem for Trump is that, even if he could declassify any and all documents with out any memorialization either before, during, or after, he cannot change the essential nature of the information contained in those documents. If the information met the definitions of 18 U.S. Code 793 before he declassified the document then it still met that definition after he did so.
I would be interested in what you see in the statute that would provide a defense based on prior declassification of a document.


Because it's not illegal to have documents about national defense. The issue is having classified documents about national defense.
The word "classified" (or any word or phrase related specifically to classification) does not appear in the statute. What part of the statute do you see that limits is applicability to classified documents?


So going the obtuse route you're going, the DOJ can legally search your home if you have books on the F14 Tomcat and the F15 Eagle and a picture of a tank because it meets the definitions of code 793. Sure thing, pal.

The affidavit sure better show the information was to be used to the injury of the United States.

The declassification is relevant.
Is your hypothetical book about the f-14 something that would be "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation," which is part of what the statute provides as a standard? If not, then couldn't be the basis of a search warrant.

Can a document, even after declassification, still include "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation?" If yes, then documents bearing classification markings including "TS" or "TS/SCI" could be the basis of a proper search warrant.

At this point we know, without any real dispute, that documents bearing those marking were removed from Mar-a-Lago during the search. A determination of whether anyone is changed with criminal violations based on those documents would have to be based on a review of the contents of those documents. However, it seems unreasonable to say that the search has to be based on the contents of documents that had not yet been recovered or reviewed.


Yes. The books meet the criteria mentioned.

Grumman F-14 Tomcat Owners' Workshop Manual: All models 1970-2006 - Insights into operating and maintaining the US Navy's legendary variable geometry carrier-based air superiority fighter https://a.co/d/jl1N3eK

Declassification is relevant unless the propriety of the warrant isn't.
So your conception is that a book available on Amazon would be subject to The Espionage Act as "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation?" Not sure how information that is already public domain (i.e., a book for sale on Amazon) could, in any way, be "used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation" considering that such adversaries would presumably already have that public domain information.

Seems to me that information could be secret (i.e., not already in the public domain) and "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation" regardless of whether it was declassified by the president using his acknowledged powers to declassify documents. If it was secret and "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation" a minute before he declassified it, then it would still be those things a minute after he declassified it.


Are we not being obtuse anymore? Show me in the code where it differentiates books on Amazon as it relates to national defense? Seemed pretty broad in scope to me. Where in the code does it differentiate between secret and classified?

Seems to me declassification of the documents should be relevant to any objective person.
How can something in the public domain, which would presumably already be in the possession of our adversaries, be "used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation?"


Seriously? Just think about that question for a few minutes.




All kinds of terrorism done with information in the public domain.
If the terrorists already have a copy of the F-14 book, which they ordered from Amazon, and somehow could cause injury to the United States using its contents, what additional injury would come to the United States if they also came into possession of your copy of the book?
packgrad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

BBW12OG said:

Ha Ha!! Even when faced with the proof you are still the smartest man in the room....... Not sure whether to laugh or applaud.

Do you think they "re-issue" documents? Do you think they go in with whiteout and cover up the markings on the documents? They don't.

All you are doing is taking information from headlines that the MSM propaganda machine put out to keep this BS story in front of mindless sheep. Notice how this story has all of a sudden taken a back burner and fallen out of the non-stop coverage? You know why don't you? Because it's about to blow up like the previous 12 hoaxes did.

The quickest way to know that the media has lost it's desire to run with a story is when they quit the non-stop coverage and sensationalizing it. I liken it to when there is a mass shooting and the shooter is black. Crickets. You know why that is don't you? It doesn't fit the narrative when a black person shoots several people. It's as common as the paper being delivered on Sunday. And you know that too.

It's OK.. after being butthurt so many times before I can see why you are willing to go down with the ship.

You keep kicking that football Charlie Brown...
Hooray! You proved that the president has broad authority to declassiy documents (something I have never disputed).

However, you haven't addressed the fact that any such declassification is irrelevant to the statutes listed in the warrant or the propriety of the warrant.

I guess, in keeping with the motif, I'll say: You keep holding that football, Lucy, until I return.


The statutes listed in the warrant affidavit that hasn't been released? How can you speak to the statutes and propriety of the warrant when the affidavit hasn't been released, and the DOJ is fighting the release?
The predicate statutes are listed in the search warrant that was unsealed last week.


Ok. I see what you're talking about.

But the declassification is relevant to the statutes listed in the warrant, at least as it relates to section 793.
Here's a link to 18 U.S.C. 793 and here's what I posted earlier about that statute:

Quote:

Take 18 U.S. Code 793 (a/k/a "The Espionage Act"), for example. That statute does not refer at all to classification levels. Rather, it uses phrases like "relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation." Information designated "TS/SCI" would necessarily meet this definition.

A potential problem for Trump is that, even if he could declassify any and all documents with out any memorialization either before, during, or after, he cannot change the essential nature of the information contained in those documents. If the information met the definitions of 18 U.S. Code 793 before he declassified the document then it still met that definition after he did so.
I would be interested in what you see in the statute that would provide a defense based on prior declassification of a document.


Because it's not illegal to have documents about national defense. The issue is having classified documents about national defense.
The word "classified" (or any word or phrase related specifically to classification) does not appear in the statute. What part of the statute do you see that limits is applicability to classified documents?


So going the obtuse route you're going, the DOJ can legally search your home if you have books on the F14 Tomcat and the F15 Eagle and a picture of a tank because it meets the definitions of code 793. Sure thing, pal.

The affidavit sure better show the information was to be used to the injury of the United States.

The declassification is relevant.
Is your hypothetical book about the f-14 something that would be "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation," which is part of what the statute provides as a standard? If not, then couldn't be the basis of a search warrant.

Can a document, even after declassification, still include "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation?" If yes, then documents bearing classification markings including "TS" or "TS/SCI" could be the basis of a proper search warrant.

At this point we know, without any real dispute, that documents bearing those marking were removed from Mar-a-Lago during the search. A determination of whether anyone is changed with criminal violations based on those documents would have to be based on a review of the contents of those documents. However, it seems unreasonable to say that the search has to be based on the contents of documents that had not yet been recovered or reviewed.


Yes. The books meet the criteria mentioned.

Grumman F-14 Tomcat Owners' Workshop Manual: All models 1970-2006 - Insights into operating and maintaining the US Navy's legendary variable geometry carrier-based air superiority fighter https://a.co/d/jl1N3eK

Declassification is relevant unless the propriety of the warrant isn't.
So your conception is that a book available on Amazon would be subject to The Espionage Act as "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation?" Not sure how information that is already public domain (i.e., a book for sale on Amazon) could, in any way, be "used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation" considering that such adversaries would presumably already have that public domain information.

Seems to me that information could be secret (i.e., not already in the public domain) and "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation" regardless of whether it was declassified by the president using his acknowledged powers to declassify documents. If it was secret and "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation" a minute before he declassified it, then it would still be those things a minute after he declassified it.


Are we not being obtuse anymore? Show me in the code where it differentiates books on Amazon as it relates to national defense? Seemed pretty broad in scope to me. Where in the code does it differentiate between secret and classified?

Seems to me declassification of the documents should be relevant to any objective person.
How can something in the public domain, which would presumably already be in the possession of our adversaries, be "used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation?"


Seriously? Just think about that question for a few minutes.




All kinds of terrorism done with information in the public domain.
If the terrorists already have a copy of the F-14 book, which they ordered from Amazon, and somehow could cause injury to the United States using its contents, what additional injury would come to the United States if they also came into possession of your copy of the book?


This isn't even semantic nonsense. Reads more like a hissy fit.
packgrad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Some background on the espionage act.

caryking
How long do you want to ignore this user?
packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

packgrad said:

Manny Sanguine said:

BBW12OG said:

Ha Ha!! Even when faced with the proof you are still the smartest man in the room....... Not sure whether to laugh or applaud.

Do you think they "re-issue" documents? Do you think they go in with whiteout and cover up the markings on the documents? They don't.

All you are doing is taking information from headlines that the MSM propaganda machine put out to keep this BS story in front of mindless sheep. Notice how this story has all of a sudden taken a back burner and fallen out of the non-stop coverage? You know why don't you? Because it's about to blow up like the previous 12 hoaxes did.

The quickest way to know that the media has lost it's desire to run with a story is when they quit the non-stop coverage and sensationalizing it. I liken it to when there is a mass shooting and the shooter is black. Crickets. You know why that is don't you? It doesn't fit the narrative when a black person shoots several people. It's as common as the paper being delivered on Sunday. And you know that too.

It's OK.. after being butthurt so many times before I can see why you are willing to go down with the ship.

You keep kicking that football Charlie Brown...
Hooray! You proved that the president has broad authority to declassiy documents (something I have never disputed).

However, you haven't addressed the fact that any such declassification is irrelevant to the statutes listed in the warrant or the propriety of the warrant.

I guess, in keeping with the motif, I'll say: You keep holding that football, Lucy, until I return.


The statutes listed in the warrant affidavit that hasn't been released? How can you speak to the statutes and propriety of the warrant when the affidavit hasn't been released, and the DOJ is fighting the release?
The predicate statutes are listed in the search warrant that was unsealed last week.


Ok. I see what you're talking about.

But the declassification is relevant to the statutes listed in the warrant, at least as it relates to section 793.
Here's a link to 18 U.S.C. 793 and here's what I posted earlier about that statute:

Quote:

Take 18 U.S. Code 793 (a/k/a "The Espionage Act"), for example. That statute does not refer at all to classification levels. Rather, it uses phrases like "relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation." Information designated "TS/SCI" would necessarily meet this definition.

A potential problem for Trump is that, even if he could declassify any and all documents with out any memorialization either before, during, or after, he cannot change the essential nature of the information contained in those documents. If the information met the definitions of 18 U.S. Code 793 before he declassified the document then it still met that definition after he did so.
I would be interested in what you see in the statute that would provide a defense based on prior declassification of a document.


Because it's not illegal to have documents about national defense. The issue is having classified documents about national defense.
The word "classified" (or any word or phrase related specifically to classification) does not appear in the statute. What part of the statute do you see that limits is applicability to classified documents?


So going the obtuse route you're going, the DOJ can legally search your home if you have books on the F14 Tomcat and the F15 Eagle and a picture of a tank because it meets the definitions of code 793. Sure thing, pal.

The affidavit sure better show the information was to be used to the injury of the United States.

The declassification is relevant.
Is your hypothetical book about the f-14 something that would be "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation," which is part of what the statute provides as a standard? If not, then couldn't be the basis of a search warrant.

Can a document, even after declassification, still include "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation?" If yes, then documents bearing classification markings including "TS" or "TS/SCI" could be the basis of a proper search warrant.

At this point we know, without any real dispute, that documents bearing those marking were removed from Mar-a-Lago during the search. A determination of whether anyone is changed with criminal violations based on those documents would have to be based on a review of the contents of those documents. However, it seems unreasonable to say that the search has to be based on the contents of documents that had not yet been recovered or reviewed.


Yes. The books meet the criteria mentioned.

Grumman F-14 Tomcat Owners' Workshop Manual: All models 1970-2006 - Insights into operating and maintaining the US Navy's legendary variable geometry carrier-based air superiority fighter https://a.co/d/jl1N3eK

Declassification is relevant unless the propriety of the warrant isn't.
So your conception is that a book available on Amazon would be subject to The Espionage Act as "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation?" Not sure how information that is already public domain (i.e., a book for sale on Amazon) could, in any way, be "used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation" considering that such adversaries would presumably already have that public domain information.

Seems to me that information could be secret (i.e., not already in the public domain) and "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation" regardless of whether it was declassified by the president using his acknowledged powers to declassify documents. If it was secret and "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation" a minute before he declassified it, then it would still be those things a minute after he declassified it.


Are we not being obtuse anymore? Show me in the code where it differentiates books on Amazon as it relates to national defense? Seemed pretty broad in scope to me. Where in the code does it differentiate between secret and classified?

Seems to me declassification of the documents should be relevant to any objective person.
How can something in the public domain, which would presumably already be in the possession of our adversaries, be "used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation?"


Seriously? Just think about that question for a few minutes.




All kinds of terrorism done with information in the public domain.
If the terrorists already have a copy of the F-14 book, which they ordered from Amazon, and somehow could cause injury to the United States using its contents, what additional injury would come to the United States if they also came into possession of your copy of the book?


This isn't even semantic nonsense. Reads more like a hissy fit.
packgrad, are you saying that the books were based on TS documents that have been declassified, therefore, they are in the public domain? With this, all the talk about espionage and whatever, is just "potentially" TDS CRAP!!!
On the illegal or criminal immigrants…

“they built the country, the reason our economy is growing”

Joe Biden
Werewolf
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You just got spanked........in public........again!

Great job BBW and packgrad
Manny Sanguine
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Werewolf said:

You just got spanked........in public........again!

Great job BBW and packgrad
I dunno, a lot of these conversations seem to end with me asking questions that are never answered (like, how a second copy of a public domain book a terrorist already owns could cuase further injury to the US, or what is a single piece of evidence that Obama moved 30,000,000 pages of documents to his home), but, sure, claim victory if it makes you happy.
BBW12OG
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Werewolf said:

You just got spanked........in public........again!

Great job BBW and packgrad
Shades of the gun control/mass shooting thread..... he left for a few months with his ass having been handed too him. I guess he forgot what it felt like and needed reminding.

He damn sure got it plus more.

Always funny when lefties can't argue facts they put the spin on like nobody else can. The problem is most of them believe the nonsense and BS jargon they are espousing.

Especially this one.... LOL... bless his heart....
Big Bad Wolf. OG...2002

"The Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson
dogplasma
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Your pro bono public service efforts in this thread are admirable, Manny, but I'm thinking your time is better spent in more productive ways.

Come on, football season.
Werewolf
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Manny Sanguine said:

Werewolf said:

You just got spanked........in public........again!

Great job BBW and packgrad
I dunno, a lot of these conversations seem to end with me asking questions that are never answered (like, how a second copy of a public domain book a terrorist already owns could cuase further injury to the US, or what is a single piece of evidence that Obama moved 30,000,000 pages of documents to his home), but, sure, claim victory if it makes you happy.
No my victory, your loss. I'm a mere spectator.
BBW12OG
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Manny Sanguine said:

Werewolf said:

You just got spanked........in public........again!

Great job BBW and packgrad
I dunno, a lot of these conversations seem to end with me asking questions that are never answered (like, how a second copy of a public domain book a terrorist already owns could cuase further injury to the US, or what is a single piece of evidence that Obama moved 30,000,000 pages of documents to his home), but, sure, claim victory if it makes you happy.
You have been spinning that BS about Obama for days now. I explained it to you as simply as I could. You can choose whether to accept it or not. It's on you comrade.

Now... you saying you ask questions that are never answered is damn funny. I have asked you several that you have ignored because you know the answer and it disproves your entire argument from today.
Quote:

Do you think they "re-issue" documents? Do you think they go in with whiteout and cover up the markings on the documents?

Where is your reply on this one?

Quote:

Please share with us what documents they were looking for, what documents they seized that were still classified/top secret.
Waiting for you to share you information with us and the rest of the world.

Quote:

You have no idea what documents are in question do you?

You have no idea if the documents in question are/were classified/declassified?

You have no more information that anyone else reading the same damn information you have do you?

You only know what the rest of us do right? (and that is debatable considering your posts)

Has it been proven that the DOJ/FBI have already violated President Trump's Constitutional Rights?

Are you butthurt once again that you missed the football Charlie Brown?

Will you once again swallow hook, line and sinker the next big hoax against President Trump a few weeks before the midterms, repeat the MSM talking points and miss the damn football again?
Here you go.. I removed my suspected answers so you can fill yours in. I also am waiting on your "response" to the 12 proven to be hit job hoaxes on President Trump.

So before you run off on one of your BS rants about people not answering your questions try getting down from your ivory tower and do what you are accusing other of avoiding.

I will wait for your reply..... if you don't have the testicular fortitude to do so I am done debating with you. You will have proven yourself to be nothing but a troll.
Big Bad Wolf. OG...2002

"The Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson
packgrad
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I haven't listened to the monologue. Just saw the meme... and boy does it hit the nail on the head about the response.

Manny Sanguine
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dogplasma said:

Your pro bono public service efforts in this thread are admirable, Manny, but I'm thinking your time is better spent in more productive ways.

Come on, football season.
There do seem to be some diminishing returns here.
BBW12OG
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Manny Sanguine said:

dogplasma said:

Your pro bono public service efforts in this thread are admirable, Manny, but I'm thinking your time is better spent in more productive ways.

Come on, football season.
There do seem to be some diminishing returns here.
Ha Ha!! You fit the liberal persona to a "T." Smug, condescending and never wrong....

Answer the questions. I dare you...
Big Bad Wolf. OG...2002

"The Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson
Werewolf
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caryking
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Manny Sanguine said:

dogplasma said:

Your pro bono public service efforts in this thread are admirable, Manny, but I'm thinking your time is better spent in more productive ways.

Come on, football season.
There do seem to be some diminishing returns here.
Manny, I'm actually enjoying your comments. I think you are genuine in your post; however, I also think you and I may have different world views. Our basis are probably just different. That said, I'm trying to engage with you from a reasonable perspective…
On the illegal or criminal immigrants…

“they built the country, the reason our economy is growing”

Joe Biden
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Manny is a good sport, I'll give him that much credit.
hokiewolf
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BBW12OG said:

Manny Sanguine said:

dogplasma said:

Your pro bono public service efforts in this thread are admirable, Manny, but I'm thinking your time is better spent in more productive ways.

Come on, football season.
There do seem to be some diminishing returns here.
Ha Ha!! You fit the liberal persona to a "T." Smug, condescending and never wrong....

Answer the questions. I dare you...
BBW12OG
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Big Bad Wolf. OG...2002

"The Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson
BBW12OG
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Nothing to see here... guess who the FBI Director in charge of the Mar-A-Lago raid was and still is?

Big Bad Wolf. OG...2002

"The Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson
Manny Sanguine
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BBW12OG said:

Manny Sanguine said:

Werewolf said:

You just got spanked........in public........again!

Great job BBW and packgrad
I dunno, a lot of these conversations seem to end with me asking questions that are never answered (like, how a second copy of a public domain book a terrorist already owns could cuase further injury to the US, or what is a single piece of evidence that Obama moved 30,000,000 pages of documents to his home), but, sure, claim victory if it makes you happy.
You have been spinning that BS about Obama for days now. I explained it to you as simply as I could. You can choose whether to accept it or not. It's on you comrade.

Now... you saying you ask questions that are never answered is damn funny. I have asked you several that you have ignored because you know the answer and it disproves your entire argument from today.
Quote:

Do you think they "re-issue" documents? Do you think they go in with whiteout and cover up the markings on the documents?

Where is your reply on this one?

Quote:

Please share with us what documents they were looking for, what documents they seized that were still classified/top secret.
Waiting for you to share you information with us and the rest of the world.

Quote:

You have no idea what documents are in question do you?

You have no idea if the documents in question are/were classified/declassified?

You have no more information that anyone else reading the same damn information you have do you?

You only know what the rest of us do right? (and that is debatable considering your posts)

Has it been proven that the DOJ/FBI have already violated President Trump's Constitutional Rights?

Are you butthurt once again that you missed the football Charlie Brown?

Will you once again swallow hook, line and sinker the next big hoax against President Trump a few weeks before the midterms, repeat the MSM talking points and miss the damn football again?
Here you go.. I removed my suspected answers so you can fill yours in. I also am waiting on your "response" to the 12 proven to be hit job hoaxes on President Trump.

So before you run off on one of your BS rants about people not answering your questions try getting down from your ivory tower and do what you are accusing other of avoiding.

I will wait for your reply..... if you don't have the testicular fortitude to do so I am done debating with you. You will have proven yourself to be nothing but a troll.
A few notes in response...
Quote:

You have been spinning that BS about Obama for days now. I explained it to you as simply as I could. You can choose whether to accept it or not. It's on you comrade.
You've been repeating the same baseless claim about Obama and 30,000,000 documents for days now. I don't care how simply you state it, unless you put up some kind of evidence to support it, it's still baseless BS, which I do not accept.

I'm going to pull the rest of your questions out separately, because I think it will be easier to follow that way.

Quote:

Do you think they "re-issue" documents? Do you think they go in with whiteout and cover up the markings on the documents?
Per the requirements of Executive Order 13526, which is the current EO governing classification, the standard is that when a document classification level is changed, the classification markings should be altered to reflect the change. (See section 1.6(h), for example.) However, it is well known that many documents do not undergo this change upon declassification.

Quote:

Please share with us what documents they were looking for, what documents they seized that were still classified/top secret.
They removed from Mar-a-Lago several boxes of documents bearing classification markings including some marked as "TS" or "TS/SCI". The identity and contents of the documents removed from Mar-a-Lago is not public.

The only way to determine whether any of the documents bearing classification markings had previously been declassified is to obtain and review the documents. That's what the search was for. So, yes, it is possible that some of the documents removed from Mar-a-Lago were declassified at some point. However, a prior determination that any of the documents that might have been found at Mar-a-Lago were still classified was not necessary to justify the warrant. It's also not necessary to know prior to the search which specific documents might have been found there. Credible information that there were documents stored there bearing classification markings including some marked as "TS" or "TS/SCI" would have been sufficient probable cause for the search.

Quote:

You have no idea what documents are in question do you?
As I said, The identity and contents of the documents removed from Mar-a-Lago is not public, but that information, or even specific information about which documents would be found there, was not necessary to provide sufficient probable cause for the search.

Quote:

You have no idea if the documents in question are/were classified/declassified?
As I said, the only way to determine whether any of the documents bearing classification markings had previously been declassified is to obtain and review the documents. However, considering that a particular classification level of any of the documents found there was not necessary under the listed statutes, this information was not necessary to provide sufficient probable cause for the search.

Quote:

You have no more information that anyone else reading the same damn information you have do you?

You only know what the rest of us do right? (and that is debatable considering your posts)
(Combining these because they're the same question.)

That's true, but the information we have - namely that documents bearing classification markings including some marked as "TS" or "TS/SCI" were, in fact ,present there - is sufficient to justify the search

Quote:

Has it been proven that the DOJ/FBI have already violated President Trump's Constitutional Rights?
Not that I'm aware of.

Quote:

Are you butthurt once again that you missed the football Charlie Brown?
Not worthy of a response, Lucy.

Quote:

Will you once again swallow hook, line and sinker the next big hoax against President Trump a few weeks before the midterms, repeat the MSM talking points and miss the damn football again?
I am a critical thinker. If you've been following my posting habits as closely as you seem to have been, you know that I've engaged in conversations here in response to (1) statements of fact that do not appear to match whatever public data I can find (30,000,000 million documents, US is #3 in homicides, but if you take out five cities the ranking is near the bottom, etc.) or (2) situations like this where there are undisputed facts (the warrant listing predicate statutes and an inventory of what was removed under the warrant) and statute(s) that would be applied. Where I've relied on other facts, I've tried to always give sources for those facts (NARA refuting the 30,000,000 documents claim, at least two world rankings of homicides showing the US was more middle of the pack in homicides, etc.). In my profession, I can only serve my clients by providing a thorough and objective analysis of facts, statutes, applicable rules, etc. My bare opinions, beyond my conclusions based on analysis and experience, carry less weight. I try to bring the same ethic here. Not sure evryone does, though.

Clearly you're not buying my conclusions and will respond with some combination of MARXIST, "semantic games," weak personal insults, claiming voctory, and so on. At some point that doesn't count as engaging in a conversation. We reached that point in other threads and are probably close that point here too.
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Your conclusions are your opinions. You are taking the laws you posted and assuming they follow your narrative.

That entire diatribe was a lot of words and zero substance. Sorry, but that's the truth and anyone that reads it knows it as well.

I appreciate the time you took to type that out. But you said absolutely nothing of value and only your opinion. You are basing your comments on speculation and what the MSM has spouted off.

Hell, the Mar-A-Lago story was 3rd or 4th on the 5 o'clock blocks. Tell you anything about the seriousness of the documents? You know how this is going to play out. If you don't you will.

Tomorrow, the partisan hack anti-Trump judge will remand the documents to remain sealed. The corrupt DOJ will leave America and people like you who are anti-Trump, anti-GOP to speculate and try and demonize everything because.. you know... "TRRRUUUUMMMMPPPPP!!!!"

It's OK... you gave a valiant effort.

Now.. what about the other 12 hoaxes? I'm looking forward to your spin on those and how crucial they were to all the convictions and how President Trump was the mastermind behind all of the indiscretions.
Big Bad Wolf. OG...2002

"The Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson
Steve Videtich
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BBW12OG said:

Nothing to see here... guess who the FBI Director in charge of the Mar-A-Lago raid was and still is?




I heard this yesterday. Fiction novelists couldn't write this any better.
BBW12OG
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Well.... I'm sure you are going to love this one as well....he's the judge that will make the ruling tomorrow if the affidavit is kept sealed. Wonder why us "conspiracy theorists" ask questions? Maybe if we were content to follow what the MSM says and obey the government we'd be fine!

Big Bad Wolf. OG...2002

"The Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson
caryking
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Steve Videtich said:

BBW12OG said:

Nothing to see here... guess who the FBI Director in charge of the Mar-A-Lago raid was and still is?




I heard this yesterday. Fiction novelists couldn't write this any better.
Dang, I posted the article, from Darrin Beatty six months ago…. This is old news…
On the illegal or criminal immigrants…

“they built the country, the reason our economy is growing”

Joe Biden
Glasswolf
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caryking said:

Steve Videtich said:

BBW12OG said:

Nothing to see here... guess who the FBI Director in charge of the Mar-A-Lago raid was and still is?




I heard this yesterday. Fiction novelists couldn't write this any better.
Dang, I posted the article, from Darrin Beatty six months ago…. This is old news…
Who appointed this corrupt FBI Director? Not flaming just asking a question. Was he corrupt when Trump made him Director?
BBW12OG
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caryking said:

Steve Videtich said:

BBW12OG said:

Nothing to see here... guess who the FBI Director in charge of the Mar-A-Lago raid was and still is?




I heard this yesterday. Fiction novelists couldn't write this any better.
Dang, I posted the article, from Darrin Beatty six months ago…. This is old news…
But yet... I'm only seeing it on certain "right leaning outlets.."

One would think that this would garner bigger headlines if it were say.. a Trump donor presiding over ANY lefty politician... Wonder why that is?????

LMAO.... yeah... tell us again there is no bias.. the only damn thing I'm shocked about is that it's not being heard in the 9th Circuit... just wait.... it will end up there before it goes to the SCOTUS.......

6-3.... oh...and we are using REAL math here...not the "equity" math that the MARXIST PARTY is pushing...!!
Big Bad Wolf. OG...2002

"The Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson
BBW12OG
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Glasswolf said:

caryking said:

Steve Videtich said:

BBW12OG said:

Nothing to see here... guess who the FBI Director in charge of the Mar-A-Lago raid was and still is?




I heard this yesterday. Fiction novelists couldn't write this any better.
Dang, I posted the article, from Darrin Beatty six months ago…. This is old news…
Who appointed this corrupt FBI Director? Not flaming just asking a question. Was he corrupt when Trump made him Director?
President Trump did... and it was a mistake. He appointed more than one from the DC swamp. This one is not the worst... but he has turned his head and has full access to a private government paid jet to get back and forth to his vacation home.

It's why he had to leave the hearing earlier this month... "pressing issues.."

And Trump should have paid Indeed.com for a lot of his hirings!!! Or let me hire them!!!!
Big Bad Wolf. OG...2002

"The Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson
Oldsouljer
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Glasswolf said:

caryking said:

Steve Videtich said:

BBW12OG said:

Nothing to see here... guess who the FBI Director in charge of the Mar-A-Lago raid was and still is?




I heard this yesterday. Fiction novelists couldn't write this any better.
Dang, I posted the article, from Darrin Beatty six months ago…. This is old news…
Who appointed this corrupt FBI Director? Not flaming just asking a question. Was he corrupt when Trump made him Director?
I wanna say Barr but it could have been that clueless wonder from Alabama that recommended this guy to Trump. I didn't like it from the beginning because Wray's known background at that time screamed "establishment" but hey, as usual, people way over my pay grade make these genius decisions.
hokiewolf
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Funny that all these hires that Trump made are all clueless idiots and hacks. You would think someone with a critical eye would pick up on a trend.
BBW12OG
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hokiewolf said:

Funny that all these hires that Trump made are all clueless idiots and hacks. You would think someone with a critical eye would pick up on a trend.
Or they were hired, then paid off.... you do you.

Crank it to this tonight....

You got him this time...

Guess the Mar-A-Lago has blown up like the previous 12... keep going.....

Hoax #14.....

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/17/us/politics/jan-6-grand-jury-subpoena.html
Big Bad Wolf. OG...2002

"The Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson
caryking
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Wray was brought to Trump by the Republican Party. The way this works is: the President has thousands of appointees he needs to make. That's too many to vet, so, they will lean on people that refer certain people. So, typically, the President will lean on Party Leaders to help with the vetting. That's what Trump did.

Now, you see what you get with Party leaders. So, yes, Trump brought Wray on; however, he leaned on the advice of the Republican Party. That is how you get these same people being regurgitated all over the Federal Government and the Administrative State!!
On the illegal or criminal immigrants…

“they built the country, the reason our economy is growing”

Joe Biden
Werewolf
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According to Gateway Pundit,

"It appears Peter Strzok was under the FBI to allow the CIA to operate in the US and that Crossfire Hurricane was a political operation by the CIA disguised as an FBI operation."

They provide some pretty compelling evidence, which begs the question, what other federal agencies are the CIA operating in to cover "domestic" operations? The NIH? The CDC? ICYMI, Peter Strzok wasn't actually fired from the FBI for his misconduct because he never worked for the FBI, as we were told, he was actually CIA. So again, what about Eco Health Alliance?

The conservative media will be all over this story because of the Trump angle, but we both know there are more interesting questions this raises.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/08/breaking-exclusive-trump-gotem-huge-concerns-peter-strzok-working-cia-likely-heart-mar-lago-raid/


*****the CIA may be in more places than simply the CIA
 
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