Packchem91 said:

---

BBW12OG said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

---

LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

---

To Chem's earlier point though Steve, there's no reason to think of mental health and more prudent gun legislation as mutually exclusive.

It's not either/or.

Do we is a culture have worse mental health than other developed nations? Not sure, hard to quantify.

Do we have more than three times as many guns per capita as they do? Yes.

When we have three times the number of firearms owned by citizens in this country as the next-highest major world power, and twice as many as the number two country on the list, it's irrational to think that the sheer number of guns floating around the country isn't a major part of the problem, or that the prospective multifaceted solution will not include some measure of controlling access to firearms for people in our society that shouldn't reasonably have them.

Also, you keep making vague references to people in mental health crisis that want to hurt others being able to do so by different means even if their access to guns is more limited. They can stab people, or make pipe bombs, or run their cars into crowds, or whatever.

It's obviously true that they could potentially find other ways to hurt people, but few of those ways are both as accessible, lethal, and as efficient at killing large numbers of people quickly as guns are.

There is a reason why countries with fewer guns than ours have fewer mass casualty events in schools. People in those countries have the same opportunity to run cars into crowds, stab people, make pipe bombs, etc., yet they don't as frequently and even when they do, those means are not as lethal. You get fewer people hurt and also those that are hurt survive more frequently.

It doesn't pass the smell test that that reason is because those countries just happen to have exponentially better mental health than America.

---

Holy ***** Do you people ever remember what has been posted throughout this thread? Or, do you read one post at a time and then react to it. Please show me where I said they're mutually exclusive.

My post was to point out things that can have a quicker effect than other things that need to be done. A gun ban is not quick. Neither are the mental health things that need to change. But there are things not being done that are already on the books but ignored.

Anybody that kills another person in a mad shooting, stabbing, vehicular death, whatever, and no matter what country they're in, what is the one thing in common with them all? Mental well being!

---

So do we agree that the most effectual prospective solution would have a mental health component and an access to guns component?

---

I have said mental health reform and red flags for people with a criminal history and mental issues. Yes

ETA: I have not said banning guns though.

---

well of course not, you need to be able to defend yourself against all those random knife and car mass-murderers out there that you keep harping on, lol.
I kid, I kid. But the sudden focus on people doing those things is interesting, coming on the heels of 35 people being killed in two incidents in 2 weeks with ARs.
You'd have never made a FG if the posts were moved that much back when you were kicking.

---

So you're only focus is on the 35 instead of thousands?

---

Can't discuss his party's main voting block. You know that.

I posted numerous websites proving what I was saying. Websites from the FBI Crime reports. He disappeared and never responded after the last batch was posted.

Now he uses his race baiting terminology to try and goad me into another useless discussion. He is the biggest racist on the board and that's an undisputed fact.

---

LOL...said the guy who jumps into a discussion on ARs and killings in Uvalde and Buffalo to bring up inner city murders and then talks about unique demographics in the US. Come on BBW, man up and say what you really are itching to say.....you've danced all around it, made it abundantly clear who you are talking about, so just do it.

---

You and others derailed this thread long ago with your ban everything BS.

Once again when you are face with facts you refuse to answer up. You are a good little lefty.

Previous posts you have said that our population isn't any different than other countries' across the world. Now you say we have "unique demographics."

Damn dude.... you are definitely a few eggs shy of a dozen. Maybe you can get some of your rooster's that can lay eggs to loan you a few.

Until you can dispute or disprove any damn thing I have posted... go pound sand with that BS narrative you are attempting to spin.

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Why should the gun shop be held accountable? Why should the manufacturer of the gun or the bullets be held accountable? Where did they fail in their responsibilities? Or is this more of the stupid woke posturing that does nothing?

---

Exactly! The family failed the kid, then law enforcement failed to act upon incidents they should've.

---

Given the # of changes in the story over the past week, I'd think we should probably allow the experts to review and tell us exactly what was missing in this story.
Did the police file something and it stopped in the system?
Did teachers?
Did everyone ignore or did it get caught up in a system. Or did the people at the end of the line who are supposed to stop a sale just not get the message?


Same with the guy from Buffalo, who fortunately for him, has been long forgotten already. But what were his signs? Who knew? How did he still get weapons?

---

Have not heard that portion of the story change. Besides, do you not see failures in your entire list that could've made a difference?

PackFansXL said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Why should the gun shop be held accountable? Why should the manufacturer of the gun or the bullets be held accountable? Where did they fail in their responsibilities? Or is this more of the stupid woke posturing that does nothing?

---

Exactly! The family failed the kid, then law enforcement failed to act upon incidents they should've.

---

Given the # of changes in the story over the past week, I'd think we should probably allow the experts to review and tell us exactly what was missing in this story.
Did the police file something and it stopped in the system?
Did teachers?
Did everyone ignore or did it get caught up in a system. Or did the people at the end of the line who are supposed to stop a sale just not get the message?


Same with the guy from Buffalo, who fortunately for him, has been long forgotten already. But what were his signs? Who knew? How did he still get weapons?

---

The guy in Buffalo was actually detained and interviewed by professional counselors. They let him go after 2 days and nothing got put in the database to block his access to firearms.

BTW, the Feds currently do nothing when they discover a weapon was erroneously sold to an ineligible person.
Straw buyers, or whatever they call the substitute buyers, are never prosecuted either.

---

OK, thats what I thought I had heard (on Buffalo). So again, having laws does no good if no one enforces them, and people who don't enforce them are not punished.

Of course, it also shows the dilemma -- proving someone is dangerous and stepping on their rights (or, in this case, putting them in for further analysis), when they have not yet technically broken a law, proves difficult to do

BBW12OG said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

BBW12OG said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

---

LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

---

To Chem's earlier point though Steve, there's no reason to think of mental health and more prudent gun legislation as mutually exclusive.

It's not either/or.

Do we is a culture have worse mental health than other developed nations? Not sure, hard to quantify.

Do we have more than three times as many guns per capita as they do? Yes.

When we have three times the number of firearms owned by citizens in this country as the next-highest major world power, and twice as many as the number two country on the list, it's irrational to think that the sheer number of guns floating around the country isn't a major part of the problem, or that the prospective multifaceted solution will not include some measure of controlling access to firearms for people in our society that shouldn't reasonably have them.

Also, you keep making vague references to people in mental health crisis that want to hurt others being able to do so by different means even if their access to guns is more limited. They can stab people, or make pipe bombs, or run their cars into crowds, or whatever.

It's obviously true that they could potentially find other ways to hurt people, but few of those ways are both as accessible, lethal, and as efficient at killing large numbers of people quickly as guns are.

There is a reason why countries with fewer guns than ours have fewer mass casualty events in schools. People in those countries have the same opportunity to run cars into crowds, stab people, make pipe bombs, etc., yet they don't as frequently and even when they do, those means are not as lethal. You get fewer people hurt and also those that are hurt survive more frequently.

It doesn't pass the smell test that that reason is because those countries just happen to have exponentially better mental health than America.

---

Holy ***** Do you people ever remember what has been posted throughout this thread? Or, do you read one post at a time and then react to it. Please show me where I said they're mutually exclusive.

My post was to point out things that can have a quicker effect than other things that need to be done. A gun ban is not quick. Neither are the mental health things that need to change. But there are things not being done that are already on the books but ignored.

Anybody that kills another person in a mad shooting, stabbing, vehicular death, whatever, and no matter what country they're in, what is the one thing in common with them all? Mental well being!

---

So do we agree that the most effectual prospective solution would have a mental health component and an access to guns component?

---

I have said mental health reform and red flags for people with a criminal history and mental issues. Yes

ETA: I have not said banning guns though.

---

well of course not, you need to be able to defend yourself against all those random knife and car mass-murderers out there that you keep harping on, lol.
I kid, I kid. But the sudden focus on people doing those things is interesting, coming on the heels of 35 people being killed in two incidents in 2 weeks with ARs.
You'd have never made a FG if the posts were moved that much back when you were kicking.

---

So you're only focus is on the 35 instead of thousands?

---

Can't discuss his party's main voting block. You know that.

I posted numerous websites proving what I was saying. Websites from the FBI Crime reports. He disappeared and never responded after the last batch was posted.

Now he uses his race baiting terminology to try and goad me into another useless discussion. He is the biggest racist on the board and that's an undisputed fact.

---

LOL...said the guy who jumps into a discussion on ARs and killings in Uvalde and Buffalo to bring up inner city murders and then talks about unique demographics in the US. Come on BBW, man up and say what you really are itching to say.....you've danced all around it, made it abundantly clear who you are talking about, so just do it.

---

You and others derailed this thread long ago with your ban everything BS.

Once again when you are face with facts you refuse to answer up. You are a good little lefty.

Previous posts you have said that our population isn't any different than other countries' across the world. Now you say we have "unique demographics."

Damn dude.... you are definitely a few eggs shy of a dozen. Maybe you can get some of your rooster's that can lay eggs to loan you a few.

Until you can dispute or disprove any damn thing I have posted... go pound sand with that BS narrative you are attempting to spin.

---

I disputed your catturd facts, and you have yet to addrss that. Just call names, move goalposts, and tilt at windmills.

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Why should the gun shop be held accountable? Why should the manufacturer of the gun or the bullets be held accountable? Where did they fail in their responsibilities? Or is this more of the stupid woke posturing that does nothing?

---

Exactly! The family failed the kid, then law enforcement failed to act upon incidents they should've.

---

Given the # of changes in the story over the past week, I'd think we should probably allow the experts to review and tell us exactly what was missing in this story.thid the police file something and it stopped in the system?
Did teachers?
Did everyone ignore or did it get caught up in a system. Or did the people at the end of the line who are supposed to stop a sale just not get the message?


Same with the guy from Buffalo, who fortunately for him, has been long forgotten already. But what were his signs? Who knew? How did he still get weapons?

---

Have not heard that portion of the story change. Besides, do you not see failures in your entire list that could've made a difference?

---

What part of hold those who let him slip thru accountable do you disagree with? You say, blame his parents, blame the police....ok, I agree. Take the use case, figure out how to make it safer so this guy doesn't get the guns.

Again -- its all part of a dialog. We should be smart enough to figure something out....instead, we (collectively, the US) will end up saying "we alreayd had laws", we want people to be able to ahve whatever weapon they want, and we are going to put this back on teachers, parents, and community to turn people in. And then hope the system works and person isn't allowed to buy a weapon.
Of course, if they aren't, then they'll just go buy one from the guy down the street who has 50 ars and a ton of ammo.

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Why should the gun shop be held accountable? Why should the manufacturer of the gun or the bullets be held accountable? Where did they fail in their responsibilities? Or is this more of the stupid woke posturing that does nothing?

---

Exactly! The family failed the kid, then law enforcement failed to act upon incidents they should've.

---

Given the # of changes in the story over the past week, I'd think we should probably allow the experts to review and tell us exactly what was missing in this story.
Did the police file something and it stopped in the system?
Did teachers?
Did everyone ignore or did it get caught up in a system. Or did the people at the end of the line who are supposed to stop a sale just not get the message?


Same with the guy from Buffalo, who fortunately for him, has been long forgotten already. But what were his signs? Who knew? How did he still get weapons?

---

Have not heard that portion of the story change. Besides, do you not see failures in your entire list that could've made a difference?

---

What part of hold those who let him slip thru accountable do you disagree with?

---

So, nothing that could make a difference. And glad to hear you think that teachers should be held accountable now along with gun shops, gun manufacturers, and bullet manufacturers. You should probably educate yourself on guns, gun laws, teachers, police, etc before you start crying wolf about who all is to blame.

Good to visualize what these guns do to the human body. Assume that there's little to no chance of a child surviving getting shot by one of these. Maybe others can chime in if they've heard of children surviving.

Cynthia Bir shows Scott Pelley the difference between bullets shot from an AR-15-style rifle and a handgun using specially-formulated gelatin targets that were designed to represent soft tissue in the human body. https://t.co/WDkV1dxyME pic.twitter.com/a14aHSdGlH

— 60 Minutes (@60Minutes) May 29, 2022

packgrad said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Why should the gun shop be held accountable? Why should the manufacturer of the gun or the bullets be held accountable? Where did they fail in their responsibilities? Or is this more of the stupid woke posturing that does nothing?

---

Exactly! The family failed the kid, then law enforcement failed to act upon incidents they should've.

---

Given the # of changes in the story over the past week, I'd think we should probably allow the experts to review and tell us exactly what was missing in this story.
Did the police file something and it stopped in the system?
Did teachers?
Did everyone ignore or did it get caught up in a system. Or did the people at the end of the line who are supposed to stop a sale just not get the message?


Same with the guy from Buffalo, who fortunately for him, has been long forgotten already. But what were his signs? Who knew? How did he still get weapons?

---

Have not heard that portion of the story change. Besides, do you not see failures in your entire list that could've made a difference?

---

What part of hold those who let him slip thru accountable do you disagree with?

---

---

A person should be responsible for their own actions...but the guns at any cost crowd says "there are signs, there are always signs" and if someone would have just said something, we wouldn't have sold them a gun.

Well who? Who is accountable to say something if your only defense mechanism to a mentally ill person getting a weapon is them being on the list?

Packchem91 said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Why should the gun shop be held accountable? Why should the manufacturer of the gun or the bullets be held accountable? Where did they fail in their responsibilities? Or is this more of the stupid woke posturing that does nothing?

---

Exactly! The family failed the kid, then law enforcement failed to act upon incidents they should've.

---

Given the # of changes in the story over the past week, I'd think we should probably allow the experts to review and tell us exactly what was missing in this story.
Did the police file something and it stopped in the system?
Did teachers?
Did everyone ignore or did it get caught up in a system. Or did the people at the end of the line who are supposed to stop a sale just not get the message?


Same with the guy from Buffalo, who fortunately for him, has been long forgotten already. But what were his signs? Who knew? How did he still get weapons?

---

Have not heard that portion of the story change. Besides, do you not see failures in your entire list that could've made a difference?

---

What part of hold those who let him slip thru accountable do you disagree with?

---

---

A person should be responsible for their own actions...but the guns at any cost crowd says "there are signs, there are always signs" and if someone would have just said something, we wouldn't have sold them a gun.

Well who? Who is accountable to say something if your only defense mechanism to a mentally ill person getting a weapon is them being on the list?

---

Like i said, educate yourself. That's just ridiculous.

statefan91 said:

---

Good to visualize what these guns do to the human body. Assume that there's little to no chance of a child surviving getting shot by one of these. Maybe others can chime in if they've heard of children surviving.

Cynthia Bir shows Scott Pelley the difference between bullets shot from an AR-15-style rifle and a handgun using specially-formulated gelatin targets that were designed to represent soft tissue in the human body. https://t.co/WDkV1dxyME pic.twitter.com/a14aHSdGlH

— 60 Minutes (@60Minutes) May 29, 2022

---

I didn't watch the video, in its entirety; however, that appears to be a stupid comparison.

edit: trying to compare a .556 to a 9mm is just stupid. Compare a .556 to a 6.5 or 30-06.

packgrad said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Why should the gun shop be held accountable? Why should the manufacturer of the gun or the bullets be held accountable? Where did they fail in their responsibilities? Or is this more of the stupid woke posturing that does nothing?

---

Exactly! The family failed the kid, then law enforcement failed to act upon incidents they should've.

---

Given the # of changes in the story over the past week, I'd think we should probably allow the experts to review and tell us exactly what was missing in this story.
Did the police file something and it stopped in the system?
Did teachers?
Did everyone ignore or did it get caught up in a system. Or did the people at the end of the line who are supposed to stop a sale just not get the message?


Same with the guy from Buffalo, who fortunately for him, has been long forgotten already. But what were his signs? Who knew? How did he still get weapons?

---

Have not heard that portion of the story change. Besides, do you not see failures in your entire list that could've made a difference?

---

What part of hold those who let him slip thru accountable do you disagree with?

---

---

A person should be responsible for their own actions...but the guns at any cost crowd says "there are signs, there are always signs" and if someone would have just said something, we wouldn't have sold them a gun.

Well who? Who is accountable to say something if your only defense mechanism to a mentally ill person getting a weapon is them being on the list?

---

Like i said, educate yourself. That's just ridiculous.

---

then get your buddies here (and in the legislature) to drop the pretense of "the system should stop them". The
"system" in the case of mental health risk is going to be you as the parent, neighbor, the teacher, the police, the doctors, etc. Or is there some other way these people are going to get stopped?

Because you've made it clear, people should be able to get all the guns they want.

hokiewolf said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

---

LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

---

To Chem's earlier point though Steve, there's no reason to think of mental health and more prudent gun legislation as mutually exclusive.

It's not either/or.

Do we is a culture have worse mental health than other developed nations? Not sure, hard to quantify.

Do we have more than three times as many guns per capita as they do? Yes.

When we have three times the number of firearms owned by citizens in this country as the next-highest major world power, and twice as many as the number two country on the list, it's irrational to think that the sheer number of guns floating around the country isn't a major part of the problem, or that the prospective multifaceted solution will not include some measure of controlling access to firearms for people in our society that shouldn't reasonably have them.

Also, you keep making vague references to people in mental health crisis that want to hurt others being able to do so by different means even if their access to guns is more limited. They can stab people, or make pipe bombs, or run their cars into crowds, or whatever.

It's obviously true that they could potentially find other ways to hurt people, but few of those ways are both as accessible, lethal, and as efficient at killing large numbers of people quickly as guns are.

There is a reason why countries with fewer guns than ours have fewer mass casualty events in schools. People in those countries have the same opportunity to run cars into crowds, stab people, make pipe bombs, etc., yet they don't as frequently and even when they do, those means are not as lethal. You get fewer people hurt and also those that are hurt survive more frequently.

It doesn't pass the smell test that that reason is because those countries just happen to have exponentially better mental health than America.

---

Holy ***** Do you people ever remember what has been posted throughout this thread? Or, do you read one post at a time and then react to it. Please show me where I said they're mutually exclusive.

My post was to point out things that can have a quicker effect than other things that need to be done. A gun ban is not quick. Neither are the mental health things that need to change. But there are things not being done that are already on the books but ignored.

Anybody that kills another person in a mad shooting, stabbing, vehicular death, whatever, and no matter what country they're in, what is the one thing in common with them all? Mental well being!

---

Are we sure though? Or are sometimes just angry. The FBI study I posted earlier -- many of those wre are the workplace. Were those people showing signs of being mentally unwell, or were they just really angry at not getting a promotion, and had access to weapons?

Clearly, mental health is a major deal. So who do we hold accountable for this Uvalde kid being able to buy 2 ARs? The gun seller? Someone who didn't report him for doing other things? I'm all for it...if you serve a drink to a drunk person who then crashes into a school...the bar would be accountable. How do we do that in the gun/ammo process?

We talk about changes of society...well one thing that has also changed is we don't want ot get involved in other people's business. My neighbor is acting weird...well, I'll just stay on my porch when they are outside and ignore them. Should a teacher report it....we have teacher / spouses here....I bet they would incur a ton more paperwork and loss of personal time if they reported that student x has been drawing violent pictures in class. Do they take that on? Do we hold them accountable if they don't?

---

Do you want to see changes or do you want to sit on a message board and complain about it? I already told you that the shooter in Texas had prior issues that weren't reported or nothing was done that ended up in the system. If it had, he wouldn't have been able to purchase the AR's. Again red flags ignored.

The workplace is no different, whether it's mental health or temporary insanity. It's still a mental issue. Why are we trying to parse these mental issues out.

---

Said as you sit on a message board and complain about it?

I'm not sure what you're arguing about --- I just said if he had known issues, who can we go arrest and hold accountable? I'm all for that. The system makes billions of gun / ammo sales, lets start making those who don't take scrutiny in their sales VERY accountable.

You also asked why aren't we doing things more immediately about mental health, and so I answered you --- because it means people have to get invovled and get their hands dirty....and we don't want to do those things anymore.

---

Which goes back to the breakdown of a sense of community and this a breakdown in society in general. I feel like I'm discussing changes while you keep making excuses.

---

No, we are in complete agreement with each othe there -- we have had a breakdown in community and society, yet we got people like Ted Cruz screaming that we should still trot out the exact same "get em while you can" gun access as we did 250 years ago.

---

My question to you chem would be what do you do about the amount of AR-15s that are currently owned by law abiding citizens with a ban on this weapon?

The banning guns ship sailed a long long time ago. there's too many legal and illegal guns in the US for any ban to be affective at all.

I think bans only draw people more towards illegal ownership of the banned weapon. You'd be creating criminals out of normal every day people.

---

Could be. How did that work in Canada? Or in Scotland?

---

They don't have a 2nd Amendment protection. To me you can't look at what another country did and apply it to the US.

---

Yes, and that statement then looks hollow when you compare the # of active shooter situations in the US vs those other countries. 61 in 2021 (per the FBI). Thats over one per week.
How many did Canada or England or Scotland have?

So ultimately, it comes down to "its the price we have ot pay for having our freedoms that no one else enjoys"

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Why should the gun shop be held accountable? Why should the manufacturer of the gun or the bullets be held accountable? Where did they fail in their responsibilities? Or is this more of the stupid woke posturing that does nothing?

---

Exactly! The family failed the kid, then law enforcement failed to act upon incidents they should've.

---

Given the # of changes in the story over the past week, I'd think we should probably allow the experts to review and tell us exactly what was missing in this story.thid the police file something and it stopped in the system?
Did teachers?
Did everyone ignore or did it get caught up in a system. Or did the people at the end of the line who are supposed to stop a sale just not get the message?


Same with the guy from Buffalo, who fortunately for him, has been long forgotten already. But what were his signs? Who knew? How did he still get weapons?

---

Have not heard that portion of the story change. Besides, do you not see failures in your entire list that could've made a difference?

---

What part of hold those who let him slip thru accountable do you disagree with? You say, blame his parents, blame the police....ok, I agree. Take the use case, figure out how to make it safer so this guy doesn't get the guns.

Again -- its all part of a dialog. We should be smart enough to figure something out....instead, we (collectively, the US) will end up saying "we alreayd had laws", we want people to be able to ahve whatever weapon they want, and we are going to put this back on teachers, parents, and community to turn people in. And then hope the system works and person isn't allowed to buy a weapon.
Of course, if they aren't, then they'll just go buy one from the guy down the street who has 50 ars and a ton of ammo.

---

Okay, let's take the recent events that my wife dealt with.
- A kid sees a video posted by a classmate saying shoot up the school.
- Kid tells mom. Mom tells teacher.
- Teacher tells principal.
- Principal tells school district and school officer.
- District holds a hearing and expels kid for the remainder of the year.
- Parents say it was just a joke and the teachers were out to get their kid.

Now, there was also supposed to be a criminal investigation, but the school wasn't notified of their findings or any punishment handed down. So we don't know what happened.

For the purpose of this example, let's say there was no punishment and 8 years from now this kid shoots up a school. Looking at this example, where do we see failures?

Packchem91 said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Why should the gun shop be held accountable? Why should the manufacturer of the gun or the bullets be held accountable? Where did they fail in their responsibilities? Or is this more of the stupid woke posturing that does nothing?

---

Exactly! The family failed the kid, then law enforcement failed to act upon incidents they should've.

---

Given the # of changes in the story over the past week, I'd think we should probably allow the experts to review and tell us exactly what was missing in this story.
Did the police file something and it stopped in the system?
Did teachers?
Did everyone ignore or did it get caught up in a system. Or did the people at the end of the line who are supposed to stop a sale just not get the message?


Same with the guy from Buffalo, who fortunately for him, has been long forgotten already. But what were his signs? Who knew? How did he still get weapons?

---

Have not heard that portion of the story change. Besides, do you not see failures in your entire list that could've made a difference?

---

What part of hold those who let him slip thru accountable do you disagree with?

---

---

A person should be responsible for their own actions...but the guns at any cost crowd says "there are signs, there are always signs" and if someone would have just said something, we wouldn't have sold them a gun.

Well who? Who is accountable to say something if your only defense mechanism to a mentally ill person getting a weapon is them being on the list?

---

Like i said, educate yourself. That's just ridiculous.

---

then get your buddies here (and in the legislature) to drop the pretense of "the system should stop them". The
"system" in the case of mental health risk is going to be you as the parent, neighbor, the teacher, the police, the doctors, etc. Or is there some other way these people are going to get stopped?

Because you've made it clear, people should be able to get all the guns they want.

---

Yes I've made that so clear. So stupid.

Steve Videtich said:

---

Some interesting thought about smart tech getting involved, but it worksheets solve the black market aspect to everything that is deemed illegal.
Single payer health care... nothing ever works when the federal government takes control. Just look at rising college costs and prescription meds. Plus, the recent formula shortage should serve as a lesson for all who want more government. Tight restrictions on production combined with an issue with one plant leads to shortage, and then a surplus at the border

No thanks! Don't want the government to decide who gets medical care when things get tight.

---

Until we can agree that health care is a basic right for all Americans, it will be hard to make a dent in acts of public violence. Universal health care like is available in other countries seems like the way to go to me, but let's get out of our political silos and figure that out. Would it be the most efficient situation? Maybe not, but it would have so many other benefits beyond gun violence. And it could put the fundamental focus of the provider on public health and not on shareholder returns. Our current system sucks.

The gun tech idea wouldn't do anything in the short term - that's obviously a long term thing. But it would keep people from fretting over losing a gun and would at least be a positive change. Nothing you can do vis-a-via gun bans or design changes will have any immediate impact at this point, I don't think. Unless you confiscate guns, and you can imagine how that would turn out. I would not be bothered by an AR-15 ban but I don't think that would do anything of substance for a very long time. What we can't do is make no changes to anything.

Edit: The kid in Texas did go out and buy two AR-15s, so maybe a ban would have lessened the impact of what he did. Not prevented it but lessened the impact.

caryking said:

---

statefan91 said:

---

Good to visualize what these guns do to the human body. Assume that there's little to no chance of a child surviving getting shot by one of these. Maybe others can chime in if they've heard of children surviving.

Cynthia Bir shows Scott Pelley the difference between bullets shot from an AR-15-style rifle and a handgun using specially-formulated gelatin targets that were designed to represent soft tissue in the human body. https://t.co/WDkV1dxyME pic.twitter.com/a14aHSdGlH

— 60 Minutes (@60Minutes) May 29, 2022

---

I didn't watch the video, in its entirety; however, that appears to be a stupid comparison.

edit: trying to compare a .556 to a 9mm is just stupid. Compare a .556 to a 6.5 or 30-06.

---

It is. It's a standard propaganda piece.

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Why should the gun shop be held accountable? Why should the manufacturer of the gun or the bullets be held accountable? Where did they fail in their responsibilities? Or is this more of the stupid woke posturing that does nothing?

---

Exactly! The family failed the kid, then law enforcement failed to act upon incidents they should've.

---

Given the # of changes in the story over the past week, I'd think we should probably allow the experts to review and tell us exactly what was missing in this story.thid the police file something and it stopped in the system?
Did teachers?
Did everyone ignore or did it get caught up in a system. Or did the people at the end of the line who are supposed to stop a sale just not get the message?


Same with the guy from Buffalo, who fortunately for him, has been long forgotten already. But what were his signs? Who knew? How did he still get weapons?

---

Have not heard that portion of the story change. Besides, do you not see failures in your entire list that could've made a difference?

---

What part of hold those who let him slip thru accountable do you disagree with? You say, blame his parents, blame the police....ok, I agree. Take the use case, figure out how to make it safer so this guy doesn't get the guns.
Again -- its all part of a dialog. We should be smart enough to figure something out....instead, we (collectively, the US) will end up saying "we alreayd had laws", we want people to be able to ahve whatever weapon they want, and we are going to put this back on teachers, parents, and community to turn people in. And then hope the system works and person isn't allowed to buy a weapon.
Of course, if they aren't, then they'll just go buy one from the guy down the street who has 50 ars and a ton of ammo.

---

Okay, let's take the recent events that my wife dealt with.
- A kid sees a video posted by a classmate saying shoot up the school.
- Kid tells mom. Mom tells teacher.
- Teacher tells principal.
- Principal tells school district and school officer.
- District holds a hearing and expels kid for the remainder of the year.
- Parents say it was just a joke and the teachers were out to get their kid.

Now, there was also supposed to be a criminal investigation, but the school wasn't notified of their findings or any punishment handed down. So we don't know what happened.

For the purpose of this example, let's say there was no punishment and 8 years from now this kid shoots up a school. Looking at this example, where do we see failures?

---

8 years later? I'd like to think there would be many more opportunities to stop it after school.
but, to play along. Teach did her job. Seems the principal did. To me, expulsion is a waste, if not coupled with mandatory counseling at that. Its silly for me or you or the principal or elected school board leader, all untrained, to make that decision....let a health expert decide if he was joking or was a sign. Parents should have an input, of coruse, but we know they are usually going to be protective and want to keep kid out of trouble.
So that type of "red flag" should 100% warrant a medical follow up.
After that.....gets even more complicated for follow up, notifications, etc.

BTW, I'd dare say, if we knew the # of kids in our schools on various drugs to keep their brain functioning smoothly, we'd be scared.

dogplasma said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Some interesting thought about smart tech getting involved, but it worksheets solve the black market aspect to everything that is deemed illegal.
Single payer health care... nothing ever works when the federal government takes control. Just look at rising college costs and prescription meds. Plus, the recent formula shortage should serve as a lesson for all who want more government. Tight restrictions on production combined with an issue with one plant leads to shortage, and then a surplus at the border

No thanks! Don't want the government to decide who gets medical care when things get tight.

---

Until we can agree that health care is a basic right for all Americans, it will be hard to make a dent in acts of public violence. Universal health care like is available in other countries seems like the way to go to me, but let's get out of our political silos and figure that out. Would it be the most efficient situation? Maybe not, but it would have so many other benefits beyond gun violence. And it could put the fundamental focus of the provider on public health and not on shareholder returns. Our current system sucks.

The gun tech idea wouldn't do anything in the short term - that's obviously a long term thing. But it would keep people from fretting over losing a gun and would at least be a positive change. Nothing you can do vis-a-via gun bans or design changes will have any immediate impact at this point, I don't think. Unless you confiscate guns, and you can imagine how that would turn out. I would not be bothered by an AR-15 ban but I don't think that would do anything of substance for a very long time. What we can't do is make no changes to anything.

---

I hear a lot of horror stories regarding universal health care. Back logs in the system, slow responds to anything, long waiting lists on many procedures, including life saving ones. It's not always roses in these countries with this type of system. When you do this n government picks winners and losers.

Agreed something should be done with Healthcare costs, but in my opinion it ain't universal through the government. We have to open up proper facilities for mental health. Reform the inhumanity of the old facilities, but they need to come back in some form. It would also help the homeless population.

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Why should the gun shop be held accountable? Why should the manufacturer of the gun or the bullets be held accountable? Where did they fail in their responsibilities? Or is this more of the stupid woke posturing that does nothing?

---

Exactly! The family failed the kid, then law enforcement failed to act upon incidents they should've.

---

Given the # of changes in the story over the past week, I'd think we should probably allow the experts to review and tell us exactly what was missing in this story.thid the police file something and it stopped in the system?
Did teachers?
Did everyone ignore or did it get caught up in a system. Or did the people at the end of the line who are supposed to stop a sale just not get the message?


Same with the guy from Buffalo, who fortunately for him, has been long forgotten already. But what were his signs? Who knew? How did he still get weapons?

---

Have not heard that portion of the story change. Besides, do you not see failures in your entire list that could've made a difference?

---

What part of hold those who let him slip thru accountable do you disagree with? You say, blame his parents, blame the police....ok, I agree. Take the use case, figure out how to make it safer so this guy doesn't get the guns.
Again -- its all part of a dialog. We should be smart enough to figure something out....instead, we (collectively, the US) will end up saying "we alreayd had laws", we want people to be able to ahve whatever weapon they want, and we are going to put this back on teachers, parents, and community to turn people in. And then hope the system works and person isn't allowed to buy a weapon.
Of course, if they aren't, then they'll just go buy one from the guy down the street who has 50 ars and a ton of ammo.

---

Okay, let's take the recent events that my wife dealt with.
- A kid sees a video posted by a classmate saying shoot up the school.
- Kid tells mom. Mom tells teacher.
- Teacher tells principal.
- Principal tells school district and school officer.
- District holds a hearing and expels kid for the remainder of the year.
- Parents say it was just a joke and the teachers were out to get their kid.

Now, there was also supposed to be a criminal investigation, but the school wasn't notified of their findings or any punishment handed down. So we don't know what happened.

For the purpose of this example, let's say there was no punishment and 8 years from now this kid shoots up a school. Looking at this example, where do we see failures?

---

8 years later? I'd like to think there would be many more opportunities to stop it after school.
but, to play along. Teach did her job. Seems the principal did. To me, expulsion is a waste, if not coupled with mandatory counseling at that. Its silly for me or you or the principal or elected school board leader, all untrained, to make that decision....let a health expert decide if he was joking or was a sign. Parents should have an input, of coruse, but we know they are usually going to be protective and want to keep kid out of trouble.
So that type of "red flag" should 100% warrant a medical follow up.
After that.....gets even more complicated for follow up, notifications, etc.

BTW, I'd dare say, if we knew the # of kids in our schools on various drugs to keep their brain functioning smoothly, we'd be scared.

---

8 years, I'm assuming that's at 18. The expulsion was for the remainder of the year. He was on a pass to attend the school where my wife works. Next year he'll have to go to the school in his boundary. But, if they know of this, who would want this kid in their school?

In this example, I see the failure from the police and from the parents. Most on this board, I think, would really want to get their kid help. But, parents these days don't want to see fault in their kids and it really fails the kid for his future. This is where we get kids that don't respect authority and don't have coping skills when life hits them in the face, as we all know it does.

The police fail because they don't want to punish a 10 yr old. It they're too lazy to do the report. Or they feel bad for the kid. Whatever. We have to hold people accountable for bad decisions they make. If there are no consequences, they'll just keep doing stupid things. Those things lead to killings of innocent people.

Steve Videtich said:

---

dogplasma said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Some interesting thought about smart tech getting involved, but it worksheets solve the black market aspect to everything that is deemed illegal.
Single payer health care... nothing ever works when the federal government takes control. Just look at rising college costs and prescription meds. Plus, the recent formula shortage should serve as a lesson for all who want more government. Tight restrictions on production combined with an issue with one plant leads to shortage, and then a surplus at the border

No thanks! Don't want the government to decide who gets medical care when things get tight.

---

Until we can agree that health care is a basic right for all Americans, it will be hard to make a dent in acts of public violence. Universal health care like is available in other countries seems like the way to go to me, but let's get out of our political silos and figure that out. Would it be the most efficient situation? Maybe not, but it would have so many other benefits beyond gun violence. And it could put the fundamental focus of the provider on public health and not on shareholder returns. Our current system sucks.

The gun tech idea wouldn't do anything in the short term - that's obviously a long term thing. But it would keep people from fretting over losing a gun and would at least be a positive change. Nothing you can do vis-a-via gun bans or design changes will have any immediate impact at this point, I don't think. Unless you confiscate guns, and you can imagine how that would turn out. I would not be bothered by an AR-15 ban but I don't think that would do anything of substance for a very long time. What we can't do is make no changes to anything.

---

I hear a lot of horror stories regarding universal health care. Back logs in the system, slow responds to anything, long waiting lists on many procedures, including life saving ones. It's not always roses in these countries with this type of system. When you do this n government picks winners and losers.

Agreed something should be done with Healthcare costs, but in my opinion it ain't universal through the government. We have to open up proper facilities for mental health. Reform the inhumanity of the old facilities, but they need to come back in some form. It would also help the homeless population.

---

Well, one of my daughters is moving to Scotland with her husband for three years, so I'll know more later! But what I'm told is that you may have to get in line for elective stuff, but you get what you have to have when you need it. Plus, I think you pay an annual flat fee for prescriptions and that's it - no copays or brand name vs generic. Single payer may be pie in the sky for the US but some form of basic coverage for everyone. I know, wrong thread!

In addition to all the headaches getting in to see someone, there is also the tax burden. If you make $55k you pay 41% income tax and that jumps to 46% at $187k. That seems steep for those middle income folks.

PackFansXL said:

---

In addition to all the headaches getting in to see someone, there is also the tax burden. If you make $55k you pay 41% income tax and that jumps to 46% at $187k. That seems steep for those middle income folks.

---

That's the other thing. Tax rates are outrageous!

caryking said:

---

statefan91 said:

---

Good to visualize what these guns do to the human body. Assume that there's little to no chance of a child surviving getting shot by one of these. Maybe others can chime in if they've heard of children surviving.

Cynthia Bir shows Scott Pelley the difference between bullets shot from an AR-15-style rifle and a handgun using specially-formulated gelatin targets that were designed to represent soft tissue in the human body. https://t.co/WDkV1dxyME pic.twitter.com/a14aHSdGlH

— 60 Minutes (@60Minutes) May 29, 2022

---

I didn't watch the video, in its entirety; however, that appears to be a stupid comparison.

edit: trying to compare a .556 to a 9mm is just stupid. Compare a .556 to a 6.5 or 30-06.

---

Sure -



Based on what he's saying that's the exit hole, so pretty solid. Goes clear through the deer, no chance a kid is surviving that.

Assuming this is the 6.5 you were talking about, pretty good explanation here of how the bullet packs a ton of energy that just looks like it destroys the insides of the target and fragments off. No kids surviving that one either.



This was a good on too, talking about how it can penetrate walls, windshields, really lethal bullets as well



I realize I'm probably getting a lot of this wrong, open to being educated.

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Why should the gun shop be held accountable? Why should the manufacturer of the gun or the bullets be held accountable? Where did they fail in their responsibilities? Or is this more of the stupid woke posturing that does nothing?

---

Exactly! The family failed the kid, then law enforcement failed to act upon incidents they should've.

---

Given the # of changes in the story over the past week, I'd think we should probably allow the experts to review and tell us exactly what was missing in this story.thid the police file something and it stopped in the system?
Did teachers?
Did everyone ignore or did it get caught up in a system. Or did the people at the end of the line who are supposed to stop a sale just not get the message?


Same with the guy from Buffalo, who fortunately for him, has been long forgotten already. But what were his signs? Who knew? How did he still get weapons?

---

Have not heard that portion of the story change. Besides, do you not see failures in your entire list that could've made a difference?

---

What part of hold those who let him slip thru accountable do you disagree with? You say, blame his parents, blame the police....ok, I agree. Take the use case, figure out how to make it safer so this guy doesn't get the guns.
Again -- its all part of a dialog. We should be smart enough to figure something out....instead, we (collectively, the US) will end up saying "we alreayd had laws", we want people to be able to ahve whatever weapon they want, and we are going to put this back on teachers, parents, and community to turn people in. And then hope the system works and person isn't allowed to buy a weapon.
Of course, if they aren't, then they'll just go buy one from the guy down the street who has 50 ars and a ton of ammo.

---

Okay, let's take the recent events that my wife dealt with.
- A kid sees a video posted by a classmate saying shoot up the school.
- Kid tells mom. Mom tells teacher.
- Teacher tells principal.
- Principal tells school district and school officer.
- District holds a hearing and expels kid for the remainder of the year.
- Parents say it was just a joke and the teachers were out to get their kid.

Now, there was also supposed to be a criminal investigation, but the school wasn't notified of their findings or any punishment handed down. So we don't know what happened.

For the purpose of this example, let's say there was no punishment and 8 years from now this kid shoots up a school. Looking at this example, where do we see failures?

---

8 years later? I'd like to think there would be many more opportunities to stop it after school.
but, to play along. Teach did her job. Seems the principal did. To me, expulsion is a waste, if not coupled with mandatory counseling at that. Its silly for me or you or the principal or elected school board leader, all untrained, to make that decision....let a health expert decide if he was joking or was a sign. Parents should have an input, of coruse, but we know they are usually going to be protective and want to keep kid out of trouble.
So that type of "red flag" should 100% warrant a medical follow up.
After that.....gets even more complicated for follow up, notifications, etc.

BTW, I'd dare say, if we knew the # of kids in our schools on various drugs to keep their brain functioning smoothly, we'd be scared.

---

8 years, I'm assuming that's at 18. The expulsion was for the remainder of the year. He was on a pass to attend the school where my wife works. Next year he'll have to go to the school in his boundary. But, if they know of this, who would want this kid in their school?

In this example, I see the failure from the police and from the parents. Most on this board, I think, would really want to get their kid help. But, parents these days don't want to see fault in their kids and it really fails the kid for his future. This is where we get kids that don't respect authority and don't have coping skills when life hits them in the face, as we all know it does.

The police fail because they don't want to punish a 10 yr old. It they're too lazy to do the report. Or they feel bad for the kid. Whatever. We have to hold people accountable for bad decisions they make. If there are no consequences, they'll just keep doing stupid things. Those things lead to killings of innocent people.

---

Ahhhh, didn't realize you were talking about an 8yo. Its really difficult to fathom an 8 yo having the capacity to form that type of evil thought, but then, the world is different, no doubt.
You hear stories about "looking into someone's eyes and seeing evil" --- I've had that experience once in my life and it was with a 6 yo.
Granted, this was at an orphanage in Guatemala...he'd been abused severely and abandoned, and this US Christian supported orphanage took him in with all its other kids. We were warned. He was charming and playing like any other kid. Then, he just flipped and started acting out. Laughing like a hyena the whole time He had this look in his eyes....I'd never seen it, and I was scared, just thinking....this kid is going to grow up and he is full of evil. Not his fault, but he was ruined.

I'm guessing your wife's 8yo is not in the same background, but i also believe chemical imbalances just make people off. So, to your point...how do you know.
I think we have to take them all seriously now. I get letting him back in school...but I'd make him have a counseling check every x months to make sure he's on track.

And yet...if someone doesn't really know the subject, its easy to fool. The guy in Buffalo...if he can act normal during a quick check, what you gonna do?

statefan91 said:

---

caryking said:

---

statefan91 said:

---

Good to visualize what these guns do to the human body. Assume that there's little to no chance of a child surviving getting shot by one of these. Maybe others can chime in if they've heard of children surviving.

Cynthia Bir shows Scott Pelley the difference between bullets shot from an AR-15-style rifle and a handgun using specially-formulated gelatin targets that were designed to represent soft tissue in the human body. https://t.co/WDkV1dxyME pic.twitter.com/a14aHSdGlH

— 60 Minutes (@60Minutes) May 29, 2022

---

I didn't watch the video, in its entirety; however, that appears to be a stupid comparison.

edit: trying to compare a .556 to a 9mm is just stupid. Compare a .556 to a 6.5 or 30-06.

---

Sure -



Based on what he's saying that's the exit hole, so pretty solid. Goes clear through the deer, no chance a kid is surviving that.

Assuming this is the 6.5 you were talking about, pretty good explanation here of how the bullet packs a ton of energy that just looks like it destroys the insides of the target and fragments off. No kids surviving that one either.



This was a good on too, talking about how it can penetrate walls, windshields, really lethal bullets as well



I realize I'm probably getting a lot of this wrong, open to being educated.

---

Great. You should sign up for a gun safety course. But they don't teach you about how a bullet goes through a child. Only radlibs pretending to research guns evaluate based on that. A truly stupid, but expected, take.

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Why should the gun shop be held accountable? Why should the manufacturer of the gun or the bullets be held accountable? Where did they fail in their responsibilities? Or is this more of the stupid woke posturing that does nothing?

---

Exactly! The family failed the kid, then law enforcement failed to act upon incidents they should've.

---

Given the # of changes in the story over the past week, I'd think we should probably allow the experts to review and tell us exactly what was missing in this story.thid the police file something and it stopped in the system?
Did teachers?
Did everyone ignore or did it get caught up in a system. Or did the people at the end of the line who are supposed to stop a sale just not get the message?


Same with the guy from Buffalo, who fortunately for him, has been long forgotten already. But what were his signs? Who knew? How did he still get weapons?

---

Have not heard that portion of the story change. Besides, do you not see failures in your entire list that could've made a difference?

---

What part of hold those who let him slip thru accountable do you disagree with? You say, blame his parents, blame the police....ok, I agree. Take the use case, figure out how to make it safer so this guy doesn't get the guns.
Again -- its all part of a dialog. We should be smart enough to figure something out....instead, we (collectively, the US) will end up saying "we alreayd had laws", we want people to be able to ahve whatever weapon they want, and we are going to put this back on teachers, parents, and community to turn people in. And then hope the system works and person isn't allowed to buy a weapon.
Of course, if they aren't, then they'll just go buy one from the guy down the street who has 50 ars and a ton of ammo.

---

Okay, let's take the recent events that my wife dealt with.
- A kid sees a video posted by a classmate saying shoot up the school.
- Kid tells mom. Mom tells teacher.
- Teacher tells principal.
- Principal tells school district and school officer.
- District holds a hearing and expels kid for the remainder of the year.
- Parents say it was just a joke and the teachers were out to get their kid.

Now, there was also supposed to be a criminal investigation, but the school wasn't notified of their findings or any punishment handed down. So we don't know what happened.

For the purpose of this example, let's say there was no punishment and 8 years from now this kid shoots up a school. Looking at this example, where do we see failures?

---

8 years later? I'd like to think there would be many more opportunities to stop it after school.
but, to play along. Teach did her job. Seems the principal did. To me, expulsion is a waste, if not coupled with mandatory counseling at that. Its silly for me or you or the principal or elected school board leader, all untrained, to make that decision....let a health expert decide if he was joking or was a sign. Parents should have an input, of coruse, but we know they are usually going to be protective and want to keep kid out of trouble.
So that type of "red flag" should 100% warrant a medical follow up.
After that.....gets even more complicated for follow up, notifications, etc.

BTW, I'd dare say, if we knew the # of kids in our schools on various drugs to keep their brain functioning smoothly, we'd be scared.

---

8 years, I'm assuming that's at 18. The expulsion was for the remainder of the year. He was on a pass to attend the school where my wife works. Next year he'll have to go to the school in his boundary. But, if they know of this, who would want this kid in their school?

In this example, I see the failure from the police and from the parents. Most on this board, I think, would really want to get their kid help. But, parents these days don't want to see fault in their kids and it really fails the kid for his future. This is where we get kids that don't respect authority and don't have coping skills when life hits them in the face, as we all know it does.

The police fail because they don't want to punish a 10 yr old. It they're too lazy to do the report. Or they feel bad for the kid. Whatever. We have to hold people accountable for bad decisions they make. If there are no consequences, they'll just keep doing stupid things. Those things lead to killings of innocent people.

---

Ahhhh, didn't realize you were talking about an 8yo. Its really difficult to fathom an 8 yo having the capacity to form that type of evil thought, but then, the world is different, no doubt.
You hear stories about "looking into someone's eyes and seeing evil" --- I've had that experience once in my life and it was with a 6 yo.
Granted, this was at an orphanage in Guatemala...he'd been abused severely and abandoned, and this US Christian supported orphanage took him in with all its other kids. We were warned. He was charming and playing like any other kid. Then, he just flipped and started acting out. Laughing like a hyena the whole time He had this look in his eyes....I'd never seen it, and I was scared, just thinking....this kid is going to grow up and he is full of evil. Not his fault, but he was ruined.

I'm guessing your wife's 8yo is not in the same background, but i also believe chemical imbalances just make people off. So, to your point...how do you know.
I think we have to take them all seriously now. I get letting him back in school...but I'd make him have a counseling check every x months to make sure he's on track.

And yet...if someone doesn't really know the subject, its easy to fool. The guy in Buffalo...if he can act normal during a quick check, what you gonna do?

---

Yea it was a 10 yr old, assuming the intent when he turned 18. But, no matter. Agree 100%! He should be required to have annual counseling or some sorts. I honestly think that if you begin to punish kids at these early ages for stupid choices, it will not only get their attention, but it'll get the attention of other parents that would actually start parenting their own kids because they don't want them to end up like little Jimmy up the street.

PackFansXL said:

---

In addition to all the headaches getting in to see someone, there is also the tax burden. If you make $55k you pay 41% income tax and that jumps to 46% at $187k. That seems steep for those middle income folks.

---

We must win the war in Ukraine.

And of course, illegals crossing the border with infants need baby formula.

We can afford to pay the taxes to support these efforts. We have no problems here

dogplasma said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Some interesting thought about smart tech getting involved, but it worksheets solve the black market aspect to everything that is deemed illegal.
Single payer health care... nothing ever works when the federal government takes control. Just look at rising college costs and prescription meds. Plus, the recent formula shortage should serve as a lesson for all who want more government. Tight restrictions on production combined with an issue with one plant leads to shortage, and then a surplus at the border

No thanks! Don't want the government to decide who gets medical care when things get tight.

---

Until we can agree that health care is a basic right for all Americans, it will be hard to make a dent in acts of public violence. Universal health care like is available in other countries seems like the way to go to me, but let's get out of our political silos and figure that out. Would it be the most efficient situation? Maybe not, but it would have so many other benefits beyond gun violence. And it could put the fundamental focus of the provider on public health and not on shareholder returns. Our current system sucks.

The gun tech idea wouldn't do anything in the short term - that's obviously a long term thing. But it would keep people from fretting over losing a gun and would at least be a positive change. Nothing you can do vis-a-via gun bans or design changes will have any immediate impact at this point, I don't think. Unless you confiscate guns, and you can imagine how that would turn out. I would not be bothered by an AR-15 ban but I don't think that would do anything of substance for a very long time. What we can't do is make no changes to anything.

Edit: The kid in Texas did go out and buy two AR-15s, so maybe a ban would have lessened the impact of what he did. Not prevented it but lessened the impact.

---

Let's say I agree with health care being a basic right…. If someone were to ask me: how does a person obtain that basic right? How should I answer them?

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Why should the gun shop be held accountable? Why should the manufacturer of the gun or the bullets be held accountable? Where did they fail in their responsibilities? Or is this more of the stupid woke posturing that does nothing?

---

Exactly! The family failed the kid, then law enforcement failed to act upon incidents they should've.

---

Given the # of changes in the story over the past week, I'd think we should probably allow the experts to review and tell us exactly what was missing in this story.thid the police file something and it stopped in the system?
Did teachers?
Did everyone ignore or did it get caught up in a system. Or did the people at the end of the line who are supposed to stop a sale just not get the message?


Same with the guy from Buffalo, who fortunately for him, has been long forgotten already. But what were his signs? Who knew? How did he still get weapons?

---

Have not heard that portion of the story change. Besides, do you not see failures in your entire list that could've made a difference?

---

What part of hold those who let him slip thru accountable do you disagree with? You say, blame his parents, blame the police....ok, I agree. Take the use case, figure out how to make it safer so this guy doesn't get the guns.
Again -- its all part of a dialog. We should be smart enough to figure something out....instead, we (collectively, the US) will end up saying "we alreayd had laws", we want people to be able to ahve whatever weapon they want, and we are going to put this back on teachers, parents, and community to turn people in. And then hope the system works and person isn't allowed to buy a weapon.
Of course, if they aren't, then they'll just go buy one from the guy down the street who has 50 ars and a ton of ammo.

---

Okay, let's take the recent events that my wife dealt with.
- A kid sees a video posted by a classmate saying shoot up the school.
- Kid tells mom. Mom tells teacher.
- Teacher tells principal.
- Principal tells school district and school officer.
- District holds a hearing and expels kid for the remainder of the year.
- Parents say it was just a joke and the teachers were out to get their kid.

Now, there was also supposed to be a criminal investigation, but the school wasn't notified of their findings or any punishment handed down. So we don't know what happened.

For the purpose of this example, let's say there was no punishment and 8 years from now this kid shoots up a school. Looking at this example, where do we see failures?

---

8 years later? I'd like to think there would be many more opportunities to stop it after school.
but, to play along. Teach did her job. Seems the principal did. To me, expulsion is a waste, if not coupled with mandatory counseling at that. Its silly for me or you or the principal or elected school board leader, all untrained, to make that decision....let a health expert decide if he was joking or was a sign. Parents should have an input, of coruse, but we know they are usually going to be protective and want to keep kid out of trouble.
So that type of "red flag" should 100% warrant a medical follow up.
After that.....gets even more complicated for follow up, notifications, etc.

BTW, I'd dare say, if we knew the # of kids in our schools on various drugs to keep their brain functioning smoothly, we'd be scared.

---

8 years, I'm assuming that's at 18. The expulsion was for the remainder of the year. He was on a pass to attend the school where my wife works. Next year he'll have to go to the school in his boundary. But, if they know of this, who would want this kid in their school?

In this example, I see the failure from the police and from the parents. Most on this board, I think, would really want to get their kid help. But, parents these days don't want to see fault in their kids and it really fails the kid for his future. This is where we get kids that don't respect authority and don't have coping skills when life hits them in the face, as we all know it does.

The police fail because they don't want to punish a 10 yr old. It they're too lazy to do the report. Or they feel bad for the kid. Whatever. We have to hold people accountable for bad decisions they make. If there are no consequences, they'll just keep doing stupid things. Those things lead to killings of innocent people.

---

Ahhhh, didn't realize you were talking about an 8yo. Its really difficult to fathom an 8 yo having the capacity to form that type of evil thought, but then, the world is different, no doubt.
You hear stories about "looking into someone's eyes and seeing evil" --- I've had that experience once in my life and it was with a 6 yo.
Granted, this was at an orphanage in Guatemala...he'd been abused severely and abandoned, and this US Christian supported orphanage took him in with all its other kids. We were warned. He was charming and playing like any other kid. Then, he just flipped and started acting out. Laughing like a hyena the whole time He had this look in his eyes....I'd never seen it, and I was scared, just thinking....this kid is going to grow up and he is full of evil. Not his fault, but he was ruined.

I'm guessing your wife's 8yo is not in the same background, but i also believe chemical imbalances just make people off. So, to your point...how do you know.
I think we have to take them all seriously now. I get letting him back in school...but I'd make him have a counseling check every x months to make sure he's on track.

And yet...if someone doesn't really know the subject, its easy to fool. The guy in Buffalo...if he can act normal during a quick check, what you gonna do?

---

Chem, I've never experienced anything like that. I'm not sure how I would handle it…. Like you said, I'd probably be scared…

dogplasma said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Some interesting thought about smart tech getting involved, but it worksheets solve the black market aspect to everything that is deemed illegal.
Single payer health care... nothing ever works when the federal government takes control. Just look at rising college costs and prescription meds. Plus, the recent formula shortage should serve as a lesson for all who want more government. Tight restrictions on production combined with an issue with one plant leads to shortage, and then a surplus at the border

No thanks! Don't want the government to decide who gets medical care when things get tight.

---

Until we can agree that health care is a basic right for all Americans, it will be hard to make a dent in acts of public violence. Universal health care like is available in other countries seems like the way to go to me, but let's get out of our political silos and figure that out. Would it be the most efficient situation? Maybe not, but it would have so many other benefits beyond gun violence. And it could put the fundamental focus of the provider on public health and not on shareholder returns. Our current system sucks.

The gun tech idea wouldn't do anything in the short term - that's obviously a long term thing. But it would keep people from fretting over losing a gun and would at least be a positive change. Nothing you can do vis-a-via gun bans or design changes will have any immediate impact at this point, I don't think. Unless you confiscate guns, and you can imagine how that would turn out. I would not be bothered by an AR-15 ban but I don't think that would do anything of substance for a very long time. What we can't do is make no changes to anything.

Edit: The kid in Texas did go out and buy two AR-15s, so maybe a ban would have lessened the impact of what he did. Not prevented it but lessened the impact.

---

Give the MARXISTS enough time to tell you who they are and they always will....

Along with your utopian dream of universal health care run by the government why don't you include all of your and your MARXIST PARTY'S dreams...

• expanding the Supreme Court with activist left wing judges like the ones in D.C.
• abolishing the filibuster
• abolishing the 2nd Amendment
• banning semi-automatic guns - pistols and rifles
• confiscating guns from existing gun owners
• adding D.C. and Puerto Rico as states
• open borders ( more so than they are now )
• CRT and Transgender Education beginning in pre-school
• Assure that this country is single party rule
• abolishing the prison system, because you know, racism, equity....blah blah blah..

Did I leave anything out comrade?

And just an FYI... I have worked in Canada in my line of work for over 18 years. Guess where Canadians go when they need legitimate health care outside of a Dr.'s appointment for a cold that can afford it?

Yep.. the good ol' sorry ass healthcare system of the United States of America. FACT.

Imagine your wife finding a lump in her breast and being told it would be 8-14 months for a mammogram. Or you finding a mass in your neck and being told the same thing.

Your utopian view of what the government can do and what it will do is clouded by your hatred of anything Conservative and you have proven it time and time again. If this country is so bad you should head over to some of the places you and your ilk desire this country to be like so badly.

We won't miss you.

Chem since you only stated I posted "facts" from a Catturd twitter feed I went back over this thread and found numerous sites that I linked, posted directly to you that you failed to acknowledge. I know you like to gloss over facts, stay away while the posts get lost in the mix and then try and spout off your racist nonsense.

Well here you go. These are the sites I linked for you to prove my point and to provide you with factual information. What you choose to do with it I could care less. But I wanted everyone to see exactly what kind of fraud and clown show you really are.

Here you go.. I was wrong. African Americans are only 12.4% of the population.

https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/08/improved-race-ethnicity-measures-reveal-united-states-population-much-more-multiracial.html#:~:text=In%202020%2C%20the%20Black%20or,million%20and%2012.6%25%20in%202010.

More "FACTS" for my window licking, crayon eating little buddy....

https://www.everytown.org/issues/gun-violence-black-americans/

And I posted the stats from the FBI because the definition of a "mass shooting" is "the killing of four or more people......"

So when you have drive by shootings at cookouts, funerals, house parties etc.... and they result in more than 4 deaths it is a "mass shooting."

https://www.maciverinstitute.com/2022/05/debunking-every-major-mass-shooting-myth/

Here is the list of the "mass shootings" in 2022. Do your research and tell me what the percentages of each racial demographic in on them.

https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting

Now... when you accuse me of distorting or putting out misinformation you damn well better have the receipts.

And the discussion evolved into why this was happening and you kept accusing me of racism. When in fact, the real racist is you and always has been.

https://nypost.com/2020/09/24/blm-removes-website-language-blasting-nuclear-family-structure/

https://www.heritage.org/marriage-and-family/commentary/black-families-matter

https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/aug/28/ask-politifact-does-black-lives-matter-aim-destroy/

https://fee.org/articles/black-lives-matter-s-goal-to-disrupt-the-nuclear-family-fits-a-marxist-aim-that-goes-back-a-century-and-a-half/

Now show me the stats on who/which demographic is responsible for a majority of "mass shootings" in the United States.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/table-43

https://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.asp?table_in=2

"Maybe it's not a gun problem. Maybe it's a cultural problem where 17% of the population is involved with over 75% of ALL VIOLENT CRIMES.

You don't see that as an issue then there is no helping you. Also why don't you do some homework and give me the demographic breakdowns on the populations of the countries you listed and questioned me about. I did my homework. Pretend you aren't a grifting lefty and do some yourself. Put your facts out here to support your pathetic argument." Here is where I was incorrect on the African American population being 17%. You can cherry pick your data source. The above links are from the FBI Government Crime Statistics. You should love those. They work for your party.....

Now if you want to put forth the effort to research and provide any type of rebuttal do it. If not.... I could care less. Once again you have been exposed for what you are. A race-baiting troll.

caryking said:

---

Let's say I agree with health care being a basic right…. If someone were to ask me: how does a person obtain that basic right? How should I answer them?

---

Health care isn't and never will be a right. It's a service. What gives you the right to demand someone else's time as a right?

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

Let's say I agree with health care being a basic right…. If someone were to ask me: how does a person obtain that basic right? How should I answer them?

---

Health care isn't and never will be a right. It's a service. What gives you the right to demand someone else's time as a right?

---

Hokie, I agree with you…. The question is still open. People do believe it's a basic right, so, how does a person obtain that basic right?

I'm always wanting to hear and understand people when they say this stuff. Rights have to come from somewhere, right?

Well said.

My question re "my window licking, crayon eating little buddy". Is that your original or did you borrow it from someone else? :-)

Werewolf said:

---

Well said.

My question re "my window licking, crayon eating little buddy". Is that your original or did you borrow it from someone else? :-)

---

Combo of two phrases a good friend of mine used to say.... fits well doesn't it?