Packchem91 said:

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caryking said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

caryking said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

caryking said:

---

statefan91 said:

---

packgrad said:

---

statefan91 said:

---

packgrad said:

---

statefan91 said:

---

packgrad said:

---

I'm not paid to come up with the solution nor do I think I'm smart enough to know what it is. I just know that what's being proposed doesn't really seem like it's effective as displayed by those incidents where the cops were too scared to do something.

---

---

---

If police can't contend with people and the weapons legally available to them, then it doesn't seem like good guys with guns are much help.

---

You don't think police are much help? Ok. About par for the course with you.

Non of the laws or bans being suggested have worked either.

---

Well, did the security officers do anything in these situations? It sounds like they actively chose not to. If they can't contend with the firepower these school shooters have, then what's needed?

---

I think we have a common thread with all these Evil people committing these crimes. I wish we could understand this part more and deal with this someway…

---

Part of that common thread you choose to ignore is that that it is also with automated rifles that allow them to kill quickly and indiscriminately.
Almost never with knives, once with a car, never with a baseball bat or brass knuckles. Almost always with a gun they don't need unless they want to kill people. That part matters.

---

Unfortunately, you always bring up the instrument and not the problem. A gun, bat, dump truck, knife, brass knuckle, tree limb, fart, and anything else is an object used by a deranged individual. Now, I don't know whether this kid or any of the other people committing these heinous crimes are deranged; however, they appear to live in the same lifestyle, based on what we know so far.

---

#ignoranceisbliss,iguess.

Which instrument did he choose? When was the last time those other instruments were used? Its not remotely comparable, but you equate them. I know you know better, so that is willful ignorance.

As for the person....I've mentioned here multiple times that there is clearly a person problem too. But the laws just allowed this guy to buy up two ARs and plenty of ammo. There is something inherently wrong with that, and the ignorance of it being a problem.

---

You don't know what laws were avoided that allowed this purchase, so you?

And yes, those instrument are different; however, they are an instrument that have been used, including a fart

Chem, the ignorance is you assuming a whole lot, at this point. Have you even seen the police report? This is the issue!!! People, like you, jumping on a bandwagon, that fits "Your" narrative. Try and rationalize that "Your" narrative puts others on the defensive, when it doesn't have to…

Just slow down, express your concerns, and let this play out. The Buffalo event as well this event and all other events going back to columbine needs to help us drive solutions.

We have the use of a certain type of firearm, got it! What are the commonalities in the people! What are the commonalities of the firearm buying? What are the commonalities in other areas.

Your words like: there is "No" need for an AR rifle is your opinion and very divisive! Just Stop!!!! Or, go with somebody hunting and learn!

---

Actually, saying "you're not going to infringe at all on my 2nd amendment rights" and that is just tough luck that a whole bunch of people got caught up in death because you're not going to infringe upon my rights --- which is exactly what you have said -- is a bit more divisive than me calling out the use of ARs.

---

Just keep your ****ing mouth shut, perhaps….

https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/map-at-least-276-kids-16-and-younger-have-been-shot-in-chicago-since-2021/

Chicago leads the way in strict gun control. Can't wait to mimic nationally what they do

One undeniable fact of this, and any other incident anywhere is this:

Evil will always find a way to carry out its mission. It has since time in memoriam.

Bell Tower Grey said:

---

One undeniable fact of this, and any other incident anywhere is this:

Evil will always find a way to carry out its mission. It has since time in memoriam.

---

So true…

Packchem91 said:

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GuerrillaPack said:

---

I haven't read up much yet on what is claimed to have actually happened.

Is it true that this guy shot his grandmother at home first, then the cops were chasing/following him in his vehicle as he drove from his home to the school, then the guy crashes his car at the school and gets out and somehow gets inside the school. Then the cops just wait around for an hour or more outside the school doing nothing, while he's inside shooting people?

Is that what supposedly happened?

How on earth do the cops have this level of incompetence?

---

Maybe they thought they were playing in a hollywood production, like some mensas on here are claiming happened in Buffalo.

---

Well we know that you will believe whatever the bozos in suits in the Commie Lamestream media tell you to believe, right?

Cause anyone who disagrees with them and their Satanic Marxist agenda is an "insane whacko conspiracy theorist"!!

caryking said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

caryking said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

caryking said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

caryking said:

---

statefan91 said:

---

packgrad said:

---

statefan91 said:

---

packgrad said:

---

statefan91 said:

---

packgrad said:

---

I'm not paid to come up with the solution nor do I think I'm smart enough to know what it is. I just know that what's being proposed doesn't really seem like it's effective as displayed by those incidents where the cops were too scared to do something.

---

---

---

If police can't contend with people and the weapons legally available to them, then it doesn't seem like good guys with guns are much help.

---

You don't think police are much help? Ok. About par for the course with you.

Non of the laws or bans being suggested have worked either.

---

Well, did the security officers do anything in these situations? It sounds like they actively chose not to. If they can't contend with the firepower these school shooters have, then what's needed?

---

I think we have a common thread with all these Evil people committing these crimes. I wish we could understand this part more and deal with this someway…

---

Part of that common thread you choose to ignore is that that it is also with automated rifles that allow them to kill quickly and indiscriminately.
Almost never with knives, once with a car, never with a baseball bat or brass knuckles. Almost always with a gun they don't need unless they want to kill people. That part matters.

---

Unfortunately, you always bring up the instrument and not the problem. A gun, bat, dump truck, knife, brass knuckle, tree limb, fart, and anything else is an object used by a deranged individual. Now, I don't know whether this kid or any of the other people committing these heinous crimes are deranged; however, they appear to live in the same lifestyle, based on what we know so far.

---

#ignoranceisbliss,iguess.

Which instrument did he choose? When was the last time those other instruments were used? Its not remotely comparable, but you equate them. I know you know better, so that is willful ignorance.

As for the person....I've mentioned here multiple times that there is clearly a person problem too. But the laws just allowed this guy to buy up two ARs and plenty of ammo. There is something inherently wrong with that, and the ignorance of it being a problem.

---

You don't know what laws were avoided that allowed this purchase, so you?

And yes, those instrument are different; however, they are an instrument that have been used, including a fart

Chem, the ignorance is you assuming a whole lot, at this point. Have you even seen the police report? This is the issue!!! People, like you, jumping on a bandwagon, that fits "Your" narrative. Try and rationalize that "Your" narrative puts others on the defensive, when it doesn't have to…

Just slow down, express your concerns, and let this play out. The Buffalo event as well this event and all other events going back to columbine needs to help us drive solutions.

We have the use of a certain type of firearm, got it! What are the commonalities in the people! What are the commonalities of the firearm buying? What are the commonalities in other areas.

Your words like: there is "No" need for an AR rifle is your opinion and very divisive! Just Stop!!!! Or, go with somebody hunting and learn!

---

Actually, saying "you're not going to infringe at all on my 2nd amendment rights" and that is just tough luck that a whole bunch of people got caught up in death because you're not going to infringe upon my rights --- which is exactly what you have said -- is a bit more divisive than me calling out the use of ARs.

---

Just keep your ****ing mouth shut, perhaps….

---

Sorry, i forgot you need your safespace (isn't that what you guys say on here all the time??)

GuerrillaPack said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

GuerrillaPack said:

---

I haven't read up much yet on what is claimed to have actually happened.

Is it true that this guy shot his grandmother at home first, then the cops were chasing/following him in his vehicle as he drove from his home to the school, then the guy crashes his car at the school and gets out and somehow gets inside the school. Then the cops just wait around for an hour or more outside the school doing nothing, while he's inside shooting people?

Is that what supposedly happened?

How on earth do the cops have this level of incompetence?

---

Maybe they thought they were playing in a hollywood production, like some mensas on here are claiming happened in Buffalo.

---

Well we know that you will believe whatever the bozos in suits in the Commie Lamestream media tell you to believe, right?

Cause anyone who disagrees with them and their Satanic Marxist agenda is an "insane whacko conspiracy theorist"!!

---

No, not at all. But someone who can look at the evidence and immediate claim it to be a Hollywood production is indeed a wacko/clown/conspiracy theorist.

Why is it not the same story this week, btw? What was different this week that convinces you it was real, whereas you were convinced Buffalo was a fraud?

Packchem91 said:

---

caryking said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

caryking said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

caryking said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

caryking said:

---

statefan91 said:

---

packgrad said:

---

statefan91 said:

---

packgrad said:

---

statefan91 said:

---

packgrad said:

---

I'm not paid to come up with the solution nor do I think I'm smart enough to know what it is. I just know that what's being proposed doesn't really seem like it's effective as displayed by those incidents where the cops were too scared to do something.

---

---

---

If police can't contend with people and the weapons legally available to them, then it doesn't seem like good guys with guns are much help.

---

You don't think police are much help? Ok. About par for the course with you.

Non of the laws or bans being suggested have worked either.

---

Well, did the security officers do anything in these situations? It sounds like they actively chose not to. If they can't contend with the firepower these school shooters have, then what's needed?

---

I think we have a common thread with all these Evil people committing these crimes. I wish we could understand this part more and deal with this someway…

---

Part of that common thread you choose to ignore is that that it is also with automated rifles that allow them to kill quickly and indiscriminately.
Almost never with knives, once with a car, never with a baseball bat or brass knuckles. Almost always with a gun they don't need unless they want to kill people. That part matters.

---

Unfortunately, you always bring up the instrument and not the problem. A gun, bat, dump truck, knife, brass knuckle, tree limb, fart, and anything else is an object used by a deranged individual. Now, I don't know whether this kid or any of the other people committing these heinous crimes are deranged; however, they appear to live in the same lifestyle, based on what we know so far.

---

#ignoranceisbliss,iguess.

Which instrument did he choose? When was the last time those other instruments were used? Its not remotely comparable, but you equate them. I know you know better, so that is willful ignorance.

As for the person....I've mentioned here multiple times that there is clearly a person problem too. But the laws just allowed this guy to buy up two ARs and plenty of ammo. There is something inherently wrong with that, and the ignorance of it being a problem.

---

You don't know what laws were avoided that allowed this purchase, so you?

And yes, those instrument are different; however, they are an instrument that have been used, including a fart

Chem, the ignorance is you assuming a whole lot, at this point. Have you even seen the police report? This is the issue!!! People, like you, jumping on a bandwagon, that fits "Your" narrative. Try and rationalize that "Your" narrative puts others on the defensive, when it doesn't have to…

Just slow down, express your concerns, and let this play out. The Buffalo event as well this event and all other events going back to columbine needs to help us drive solutions.

We have the use of a certain type of firearm, got it! What are the commonalities in the people! What are the commonalities of the firearm buying? What are the commonalities in other areas.

Your words like: there is "No" need for an AR rifle is your opinion and very divisive! Just Stop!!!! Or, go with somebody hunting and learn!

---

Actually, saying "you're not going to infringe at all on my 2nd amendment rights" and that is just tough luck that a whole bunch of people got caught up in death because you're not going to infringe upon my rights --- which is exactly what you have said -- is a bit more divisive than me calling out the use of ARs.

---

Just keep your ****ing mouth shut, perhaps….

---

Sorry, i forgot you need your safespace (isn't that what you guys say on here all the time??)

---

Safe from who?

Packchem91 said:

---

GuerrillaPack said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

GuerrillaPack said:

---

I haven't read up much yet on what is claimed to have actually happened.

Is it true that this guy shot his grandmother at home first, then the cops were chasing/following him in his vehicle as he drove from his home to the school, then the guy crashes his car at the school and gets out and somehow gets inside the school. Then the cops just wait around for an hour or more outside the school doing nothing, while he's inside shooting people?

Is that what supposedly happened?

How on earth do the cops have this level of incompetence?

---

Maybe they thought they were playing in a hollywood production, like some mensas on here are claiming happened in Buffalo.

---

Well we know that you will believe whatever the bozos in suits in the Commie Lamestream media tell you to believe, right?

Cause anyone who disagrees with them and their Satanic Marxist agenda is an "insane whacko conspiracy theorist"!!

---

No, not at all. But someone who can look at the evidence and immediate claim it to be a Hollywood production is indeed a wacko/clown/conspiracy theorist.

Why is it not the same story this week, btw? What was different this week that convinces you it was real, whereas you were convinced Buffalo was a fraud?

---

I never said I'm convinced that this one is real. The burden of proof is always on the criminal communist Establishment media and government to prove that their narrative and claims are true. 99% of the time they're lying.

Civilized said:

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Packchem91 said:

---

And I'd dare say the intelligent forefathers we keep referencing would not want that either, especially if they knew the # of times a group of innocent and unexpecting citizens would be wiped out in seconds. But sure....your heart and all.

---

This is the part that gets me.

Do we really think the framers, in all their wisdom and critical thought, would see Americans owning three times more guns per capita as citizens of the next-most major nation; the misaligned motives of the gun lobby and the American people; the drastically changed landscape of our massive military relative to the ability of a militia to be effectual against it; and the gun violence and mass shootings in this country today and still view the second Amendment through the same lens that they viewed it back in 1791?

No chance.

But still, for some reason we continue to act like it's immutable instead of a living document that was always intended to evolve to adjust to dramatically changing circumstances like those over the last 230 years.

---

Basic rights are immutable, and "living documents" are dangerous because anyone possessing basic rights is like being at the North Pole. You can only move south.

Joe Garcia, the husband of Irma Garcia, one of two teachers shot and killed in Uvalde, TX on Tuesday, has reportedly suffered a fatal heart attack. Joe and Irma were high school sweethearts and married 24 years. They leave behind four children. pic.twitter.com/Rlk0M2B8nR

— Ernie Zuniga (@Ernie_Zuniga) May 26, 2022

PackFansXL said:

---

PackFansXL said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Here's a great start at middle ground. And you are correct Big Beautiful Wolf, gun bans don't work.

https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/pass-and-enforce-red-flag-laws-now

---

I encourage you BBW to take the 5 mins to read this. This responds to all of your points. Gun laws on the books now are there to try and address your point that shootings related to crime don't get people as upset as mass shootings involving children.

It also addresses that new restrictions or bans on gun sales or guns doesn't address the problem at hand. But there is middle ground if everyone comes together and crafts well written red flag law..

As to your point about why threads aren't started about crime in other cities - I think it's very sad that shootings that occur as a result of gang and drug violence in inner cities don't get as much attention as these mass shooting do. Those numbers should be just as jarring as yesterdays shootings but the violence has gone on for so long that I think people are numb to it.

I look locally here to Durham, as a native of that city and I am very concerned and saddened by the violence that continues in areas of the city. You and I have had good discussions in the past about the whys and whats and the how to go about fixing it.

As someone who had a personal connection to people killed at the Virginia Tech mass shooting I do get extremely bothered when the next one happens. Especially when they involve young children. That tears me up inside and I struggle with that tremendously. I appreciate the advocacy for the 2nd Amendment and what it means, but at some point we have to collectively shed our tribalism ideals and come to the table with a solution that yes, impinges on that right, but doesn't completely eliminate the ability and the right to bear arms. That's why I think a red flag law might be the solution.

---

Thanks for posting the link on Red Flag laws. The proposal by Gov. Ducey looks much more promising than the usual polarized political solutions. I did find it interesting that New York already has such a law and that did not stop the shooting in Buffalo. Unfortunately, even with well crafted laws, people still have to enforce them.

Quote:

---

In 2018 after the horrific school shooting in Parkland, Florida, Arizona Gov. Doug Ducey proposed a comprehensive safe schools program that incorporated a series of measures that were based on careful analysis of each and every significant school shooting since Columbine. I'd urge you to read the entire document. Ducey proposed enhanced background checks, an increased security presence at schools, and increased mental health resources. He also proposed a red flag law, and to support that proposal he included this chart (which may be easier to read here):

---

---

I want to redirect to a plan proposed after careful study of every significant school shooting since Columbine. I urge y'all to read the article. I am confident few bothered because there are some interesting points made in that piece and no one but me has commented since hokie asked us to read it.

I think the proposal has merit but it remains useless if the authorities don't do their jobs. Currently, the FBI usually does nothing when they find someone should not have been sold a firearm, apparently we have police officers unwilling to take down armed challengers at schools, we ignore the mentally ill, and people fail to turn in / detain sick individuals like the guy in Buffalo.

---

I will try one more time to engage the virtue signalers in substantive discussion.

GuerrillaPack said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

GuerrillaPack said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

GuerrillaPack said:

---

I haven't read up much yet on what is claimed to have actually happened.

Is it true that this guy shot his grandmother at home first, then the cops were chasing/following him in his vehicle as he drove from his home to the school, then the guy crashes his car at the school and gets out and somehow gets inside the school. Then the cops just wait around for an hour or more outside the school doing nothing, while he's inside shooting people?

Is that what supposedly happened?

How on earth do the cops have this level of incompetence?

---

Maybe they thought they were playing in a hollywood production, like some mensas on here are claiming happened in Buffalo.

---

Well we know that you will believe whatever the bozos in suits in the Commie Lamestream media tell you to believe, right?

Cause anyone who disagrees with them and their Satanic Marxist agenda is an "insane whacko conspiracy theorist"!!

---

No, not at all. But someone who can look at the evidence and immediate claim it to be a Hollywood production is indeed a wacko/clown/conspiracy theorist.

Why is it not the same story this week, btw? What was different this week that convinces you it was real, whereas you were convinced Buffalo was a fraud?

---

I never said I'm convinced that this one is real. The burden of proof is always on the criminal communist Establishment media and government to prove that their narrative and claims are true. 99% of the time they're lying.

---

Mainstream media: A man who was angry drove to kill a bunch of people in Buffalo. We see family members, first responders, government officials, etc distraught.
Mainstream media: A man who appears to have had issues went into a school and killed a bunch of kids. We see family members, first responders, government officials, etc, distraught.

GP: I have a story to tell any storeowner who tells me to put on a mask....a mask cuts down oxygen to my brain and will make me sick. We can envision the surgeon operating on poor GP's brain for 10 hrs would wear a mask the whole time and do great, but are expected to buy that 2 minutes of one makes him sick.

Yeah....I'll go with the mainstream media this time. Call me crazy.

I'm so surprised Schumer would pull this.

Never let a good crisis go to waste…an absolute scumbag.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/schumer-blocks-senate-gop-school-safety-bill-angering-republicans

jkpackfan said:

---

I'm so surprised Schumer would pull this.

Never let a good crisis go to waste…an absolute scumbag.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/schumer-blocks-senate-gop-school-safety-bill-angering-republicans

---

Democrats are simply interested in using the deaths of children, born and unborn, to further their political agenda. What a disgusting political party!!

statefan91 said:

---

Joe Garcia, the husband of Irma Garcia, one of two teachers shot and killed in Uvalde, TX on Tuesday, has reportedly suffered a fatal heart attack. Joe and Irma were high school sweethearts and married 24 years. They leave behind four children. pic.twitter.com/Rlk0M2B8nR

— Ernie Zuniga (@Ernie_Zuniga) May 26, 2022

---

Wow. It's not unbelievable because folks (and pets) can grieve themselves to death. They leave four children behind.

May they both reap their Heavenly reward, and their family be shielded in the arms of God.

jkpackfan said:

---

I'm so surprised Schumer would pull this.

Never let a good crisis go to waste…an absolute scumbag.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/schumer-blocks-senate-gop-school-safety-bill-angering-republicans

---

Its funny... Biden said when the second amendment was passed, you couldn't own a cannon. Actually, you could and, I think, in Virginia, it was a requirement to own a cannon.

A mom of two children at Uvalde was put in handcuffs after urging police and law enforcement to enter the school.

Once freed from her cuffs, she jumped the school fence, ran inside and sprinted out with her kids.

New from @WSJ: https://t.co/SYdgysw0gF pic.twitter.com/ZCadllw9aT

— Megan Menchaca (@meganmmenchaca) May 26, 2022

jkpackfan said:

---

I'm so surprised Schumer would pull this.

Never let a good crisis go to waste…an absolute scumbag.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/schumer-blocks-senate-gop-school-safety-bill-angering-republicans

---

Are you really? Come on....

If it doesn't benefit them in elections they don't give a damn.

Read some of the posts on this thread. NONE of the lefties have seriously addressed the shootings in MARXIST run cities. And, on top of that, it's people of color killing people of color.

Imagine the outrage in the media on here if the shooter had been a white guy killing POC...

Now.. the black nationalist that plowed through the parade in Wisconsin doesn't even get a slap on the wrist from the board's biggest racist Chem.... Can't blame him.. his POS President Sleepy Joe was too busy to visit there.

Let one single POC get killed by a non-POC and he fires up the jet, loads up the press and makes sure he has the MSM primetime slots available.

The entire left wing of this country can be flushed down the damn toilet and watch the turds swim to the top trying to escape the excrement that is being dumped on them.

caryking said:

---

jkpackfan said:

---

I'm so surprised Schumer would pull this.

Never let a good crisis go to waste…an absolute scumbag.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/schumer-blocks-senate-gop-school-safety-bill-angering-republicans

---

Its funny... Biden said when the second amendment was passed, you couldn't own a cannon. Actually, you could and, I think, in Virginia, it was a requirement to own a cannon.

---

Add this to the list of "lies" told by the MARXIST leader....

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/americans-can-still-buy-cannon/

We see what is happening with the party in charge...let's remember it.

BBW12OG said:

---

jkpackfan said:

---

I'm so surprised Schumer would pull this.

Never let a good crisis go to waste…an absolute scumbag.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/schumer-blocks-senate-gop-school-safety-bill-angering-republicans

---

Are you really? Come on....

If it doesn't benefit them in elections they don't give a damn.

Read some of the posts on this thread. NONE of the lefties have seriously addressed the shootings in MARXIST run cities. And, on top of that, it's people of color killing people of color.

Imagine the outrage in the media on here if the shooter had been a white guy killing POC...

Now.. the black nationalist that plowed through the parade in Wisconsin doesn't even get a slap on the wrist from the board's biggest racist Chem.... Can't blame him.. his POS President Sleepy Joe was too busy to visit there.

Let one single POC get killed by a non-POC and he fires up the jet, loads up the press and makes sure he has the MSM primetime slots available.

The entire left wing of this country can be flushed down the damn toilet and watch the turds swim to the top trying to escape the excrement that is being dumped on them.

---

My eye roll emoji didn't come through

statefan91 said:

---

A mom of two children at Uvalde was put in handcuffs after urging police and law enforcement to enter the school.

Once freed from her cuffs, she jumped the school fence, ran inside and sprinted out with her kids.

New from @WSJ: https://t.co/SYdgysw0gF pic.twitter.com/ZCadllw9aT

— Megan Menchaca (@meganmmenchaca) May 26, 2022

---

Good for her! I can guarantee something similar would have happened if my children were held in there and the authorities did nothing to stop it. I know my wife would have assaulted any officer that refused to engage.

Same. Unfortunate to see that many of these kids could've been saved with more action

PackFansXL said:

---

PackFansXL said:

---

PackFansXL said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Here's a great start at middle ground. And you are correct Big Beautiful Wolf, gun bans don't work.

https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/pass-and-enforce-red-flag-laws-now

---

I encourage you BBW to take the 5 mins to read this. This responds to all of your points. Gun laws on the books now are there to try and address your point that shootings related to crime don't get people as upset as mass shootings involving children.

It also addresses that new restrictions or bans on gun sales or guns doesn't address the problem at hand. But there is middle ground if everyone comes together and crafts well written red flag law..

As to your point about why threads aren't started about crime in other cities - I think it's very sad that shootings that occur as a result of gang and drug violence in inner cities don't get as much attention as these mass shooting do. Those numbers should be just as jarring as yesterdays shootings but the violence has gone on for so long that I think people are numb to it.

I look locally here to Durham, as a native of that city and I am very concerned and saddened by the violence that continues in areas of the city. You and I have had good discussions in the past about the whys and whats and the how to go about fixing it.

As someone who had a personal connection to people killed at the Virginia Tech mass shooting I do get extremely bothered when the next one happens. Especially when they involve young children. That tears me up inside and I struggle with that tremendously. I appreciate the advocacy for the 2nd Amendment and what it means, but at some point we have to collectively shed our tribalism ideals and come to the table with a solution that yes, impinges on that right, but doesn't completely eliminate the ability and the right to bear arms. That's why I think a red flag law might be the solution.

---

Thanks for posting the link on Red Flag laws. The proposal by Gov. Ducey looks much more promising than the usual polarized political solutions. I did find it interesting that New York already has such a law and that did not stop the shooting in Buffalo. Unfortunately, even with well crafted laws, people still have to enforce them.

Quote:

---

In 2018 after the horrific school shooting in Parkland, Florida, Arizona Gov. Doug Ducey proposed a comprehensive safe schools program that incorporated a series of measures that were based on careful analysis of each and every significant school shooting since Columbine. I'd urge you to read the entire document. Ducey proposed enhanced background checks, an increased security presence at schools, and increased mental health resources. He also proposed a red flag law, and to support that proposal he included this chart (which may be easier to read here):

---

---

I want to redirect to a plan proposed after careful study of every significant school shooting since Columbine. I urge y'all to read the article. I am confident few bothered because there are some interesting points made in that piece and no one but me has commented since hokie asked us to read it.

I think the proposal has merit but it remains useless if the authorities don't do their jobs. Currently, the FBI usually does nothing when they find someone should not have been sold a firearm, apparently we have police officers unwilling to take down armed challengers at schools, we ignore the mentally ill, and people fail to turn in / detain sick individuals like the guy in Buffalo.

---

I will try one more time to engage the virtue signalers in substantive discussion.

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Sounds like a proactive response. Red flag laws concern me, as they should anyone after the behavior of many during the pandemic. Definitely see how they could be weaponized. Theirs seems better managed where perhaps this could be contained.

Certainly a better response than "BAN AR15s!!!!"

It is frightening how slowly the criminal databases are updated. A month to record a violent offense just seems nuts in todays everything at your fingertips now society.

Oldsouljer said:

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Civilized said:

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Packchem91 said:

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And I'd dare say the intelligent forefathers we keep referencing would not want that either, especially if they knew the # of times a group of innocent and unexpecting citizens would be wiped out in seconds. But sure....your heart and all.

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This is the part that gets me.

Do we really think the framers, in all their wisdom and critical thought, would see Americans owning three times more guns per capita as citizens of the next-most major nation; the misaligned motives of the gun lobby and the American people; the drastically changed landscape of our massive military relative to the ability of a militia to be effectual against it; and the gun violence and mass shootings in this country today and still view the second Amendment through the same lens that they viewed it back in 1791?

No chance.

But still, for some reason we continue to act like it's immutable instead of a living document that was always intended to evolve to adjust to dramatically changing circumstances like those over the last 230 years.

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Basic rights are immutable, and "living documents" are dangerous because anyone possessing basic rights is like being at the North Pole. You can only move south.

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Basic rights like what?

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

Or the right to own a closetful of AR-15's?

PackFansXL said:

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jkpackfan said:

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I'm so surprised Schumer would pull this.

Never let a good crisis go to waste…an absolute scumbag.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/schumer-blocks-senate-gop-school-safety-bill-angering-republicans

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Democrats are simply interested in using the deaths of children, born and unborn, to further their political agenda. What a disgusting political party!!

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Exactly.

packgrad said:

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PackFansXL said:

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jkpackfan said:

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I'm so surprised Schumer would pull this.

Never let a good crisis go to waste…an absolute scumbag.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/schumer-blocks-senate-gop-school-safety-bill-angering-republicans

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Democrats are simply interested in using the deaths of children, born and unborn, to further their political agenda. What a disgusting political party!!

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Exactly.

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Ditto, hammer on nail!

Civilized said:

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Oldsouljer said:

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Civilized said:

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Packchem91 said:

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And I'd dare say the intelligent forefathers we keep referencing would not want that either, especially if they knew the # of times a group of innocent and unexpecting citizens would be wiped out in seconds. But sure....your heart and all.

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This is the part that gets me.

Do we really think the framers, in all their wisdom and critical thought, would see Americans owning three times more guns per capita as citizens of the next-most major nation; the misaligned motives of the gun lobby and the American people; the drastically changed landscape of our massive military relative to the ability of a militia to be effectual against it; and the gun violence and mass shootings in this country today and still view the second Amendment through the same lens that they viewed it back in 1791?

No chance.

But still, for some reason we continue to act like it's immutable instead of a living document that was always intended to evolve to adjust to dramatically changing circumstances like those over the last 230 years.

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Basic rights are immutable, and "living documents" are dangerous because anyone possessing basic rights is like being at the North Pole. You can only move south.

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Basic rights like what?

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

Or the right to own a closetful of AR-15's?

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Civ, where are those rights obtained?

PackFansXL said:

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jkpackfan said:

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I'm so surprised Schumer would pull this.

Never let a good crisis go to waste…an absolute scumbag.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/schumer-blocks-senate-gop-school-safety-bill-angering-republicans

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Democrats are simply interested in using the deaths of children, born and unborn, to further their political agenda. What a disgusting political party!!

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So if some illegal immigrants had drunkenly plowed into the playground at this school and killed 20 kids....do you think all the GOP (and some guys on this here thread) would have sat idly by and allowed the legal process to work, or would there have been some gross exaggerations of the issue and use of the tragedy to drive reform?

Either is disgusting, but lets not act like both parties do this, every time something major happens.

Climate tragedy - Dems
Parollee kills again -- GOP
AR15 -- Dems
Immigrant kills -- GOP

On and on, and on.

PackFansXL said:

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PackFansXL said:

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PackFansXL said:

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hokiewolf said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Here's a great start at middle ground. And you are correct Big Beautiful Wolf, gun bans don't work.

https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/pass-and-enforce-red-flag-laws-now

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I encourage you BBW to take the 5 mins to read this. This responds to all of your points. Gun laws on the books now are there to try and address your point that shootings related to crime don't get people as upset as mass shootings involving children.

It also addresses that new restrictions or bans on gun sales or guns doesn't address the problem at hand. But there is middle ground if everyone comes together and crafts well written red flag law..

As to your point about why threads aren't started about crime in other cities - I think it's very sad that shootings that occur as a result of gang and drug violence in inner cities don't get as much attention as these mass shooting do. Those numbers should be just as jarring as yesterdays shootings but the violence has gone on for so long that I think people are numb to it.

I look locally here to Durham, as a native of that city and I am very concerned and saddened by the violence that continues in areas of the city. You and I have had good discussions in the past about the whys and whats and the how to go about fixing it.

As someone who had a personal connection to people killed at the Virginia Tech mass shooting I do get extremely bothered when the next one happens. Especially when they involve young children. That tears me up inside and I struggle with that tremendously. I appreciate the advocacy for the 2nd Amendment and what it means, but at some point we have to collectively shed our tribalism ideals and come to the table with a solution that yes, impinges on that right, but doesn't completely eliminate the ability and the right to bear arms. That's why I think a red flag law might be the solution.

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Thanks for posting the link on Red Flag laws. The proposal by Gov. Ducey looks much more promising than the usual polarized political solutions. I did find it interesting that New York already has such a law and that did not stop the shooting in Buffalo. Unfortunately, even with well crafted laws, people still have to enforce them.

Quote:

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In 2018 after the horrific school shooting in Parkland, Florida, Arizona Gov. Doug Ducey proposed a comprehensive safe schools program that incorporated a series of measures that were based on careful analysis of each and every significant school shooting since Columbine. I'd urge you to read the entire document. Ducey proposed enhanced background checks, an increased security presence at schools, and increased mental health resources. He also proposed a red flag law, and to support that proposal he included this chart (which may be easier to read here):

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I want to redirect to a plan proposed after careful study of every significant school shooting since Columbine. I urge y'all to read the article. I am confident few bothered because there are some interesting points made in that piece and no one but me has commented since hokie asked us to read it.

I think the proposal has merit but it remains useless if the authorities don't do their jobs. Currently, the FBI usually does nothing when they find someone should not have been sold a firearm, apparently we have police officers unwilling to take down armed challengers at schools, we ignore the mentally ill, and people fail to turn in / detain sick individuals like the guy in Buffalo.

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I will try one more time to engage the virtue signalers in substantive discussion.

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I'll endeavor to read thru it tonight while watching the Canes game.

^ For those on the pro- 2nd amendment side never allow the detractors to take the argument away from its intent. The intent is for the protection of the American citizen from its GOVERNMENT.........the type of GOVT we now have. It wasn't to hunt and it wasn't intended to protect us from an intruder, robber, etc.

Cannon blah blah blah. A 1776 citizen's personal firearm was more closely equal to a British regular's firearm than that of any modern day citizen possessed firearm compared to armed military of today. NOT CLOSE.

The 2nd amendment is non-negotiable and the American citizen has already 'given in' too much as it is..

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/uvalde-shooter-entered-school-unobstructed-was-not-confronted-outside-as-initially-claimed-texas-official-says/

Quote:

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The 18-year-old gunman who struck the Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, on Tuesday, entered the building "unobstructed" through an unlocked door and was not engaged by police outside the school as initially indicated, according to the Texas Department of Public Safety.

He said that after shooting his grandmother at her home, less than half a mile away from the school, Ramos fired at two persons at a nearby funeral home before entering the school premises. He reportedly climbed over its fence and entered through its west side door.

The door to the school building was unlocked at the time. From that outer door, Escalon said that Ramos travelled less than 20 feet through the hallways into the door of the fourth-grade classroom, where he killed 19 students and two teachers. The doors to that classroom were unlocked and open as Ramos entered. Escalon added that Ramos was carrying a long rifle and a bag of ammunition at the time.

Escalon added that no police or law-enforcement officers were present at the school at the time, which allowed the shooter to enter the school unobstructed. He said that police officers responded to reports of shots fired at the school at 11:44 a.m. local time, four minutes after Ramos was reported to have entered.

Escalon forcefully pushed back against suggestions that police declined to enter the school after arriving at the premises, as has been suggested by parents of students with videos circulating on social media. He also dismissed suggestions that an officer with the Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District Police service had confronted the suspect outside the school before he entered.

Instead, he said that a group of officers from various agencies entered the school immediately after arriving on scene but fell back after exchanging gunfire with the suspect. At least one officer was believed to have been hit during that exchange. During this time, they called for "additional resources, such as body armor, precision riflemen, and hostage negotiators," and began evacuating children from other classrooms.

The officers then stood by until a U.S. Border Patrol tactical team arrived, one hour later. That team eventually breached the classroom after a delay owing to their inability to unlock the classroom door, according to the Associated Press, where they shot and killed Ramos, who was hit 15 times. They proceeded to secure the area.

He also corrected earlier reports that Ramos's grandmother was dead. He said that she was alive and in stable condition and was responsible for calling 911 to alert police of Ramos's activity.

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This is a big problem for me when it comes to these instances. There were so many red flags prior to these events, but nothing was done or things were ignored. We have to change this. It goes back to my earlier post about parenting, discipline, mental health in our society today.

I'll share a story that's makes this hit close to home. My wife has been an elementary school teacher for about 25 years. About 2 months ago, a kid in the school posted a TikTok video talking about going to the school and killing everyone, with a slide show including pics of classmates and teachers. The video was seen by another student and reported by their parent to the school. It was then reported to the school district and the police, where it was handled from there.

When the parents were made aware of the issue, their first question was how and why did the elementary school get involved in this. Not a concern for who was threatened, why did their kid do this. No, why was his school involved. Another example of turning the cheek from the actual problem.

So, then comes the school district trial. The parents of course claimed he was just joking. Sure! They also said he was ADHD and prone to impulsive behavior. So, the district asks the kid, how did you get the pictures. His response, I took screen shots of everyone on his Chrome Book, emailed them to himself, and then made the video at home. So not impulsive behavior, but completely pre-meditated. The parents went on to say that the teachers didn't like him and were just out to get him. The principle presented a folder an inch thick of issues that have presented with this kid in 1 year.

I go back to what I said earlier. We have a serious issue with our young kids and young adults in how they are being raised. There is no discipline, no parenting, no accountability, and no teaching of right and wrong. We continue to not punish people when they do wrong. We look the other way because we excuse their upbringing or situation. Or, we just ignore the fact that there is evidently a problem.

You talk to any school teacher and with a pretty high percentage of accuracy, they can tell you what kind of adult each kid is going to grow into. All while their hands are tied by bad parents and bureaucracy from trying to do right by these kids. So, when these same kids turn around and create these horrific scenes year after year, our first response is to blame the gun.

PackFansXL said:

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https://www.nationalreview.com/news/uvalde-shooter-entered-school-unobstructed-was-not-confronted-outside-as-initially-claimed-texas-official-says/

Quote:

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The 18-year-old gunman who struck the Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, on Tuesday, entered the building "unobstructed" through an unlocked door and was not engaged by police outside the school as initially indicated, according to the Texas Department of Public Safety.

He said that after shooting his grandmother at her home, less than half a mile away from the school, Ramos fired at two persons at a nearby funeral home before entering the school premises. He reportedly climbed over its fence and entered through its west side door.

The door to the school building was unlocked at the time. From that outer door, Escalon said that Ramos travelled less than 20 feet through the hallways into the door of the fourth-grade classroom, where he killed 19 students and two teachers. The doors to that classroom were unlocked and open as Ramos entered. Escalon added that Ramos was carrying a long rifle and a bag of ammunition at the time.

Escalon added that no police or law-enforcement officers were present at the school at the time, which allowed the shooter to enter the school unobstructed. He said that police officers responded to reports of shots fired at the school at 11:44 a.m. local time, four minutes after Ramos was reported to have entered.

Escalon forcefully pushed back against suggestions that police declined to enter the school after arriving at the premises, as has been suggested by parents of students with videos circulating on social media. He also dismissed suggestions that an officer with the Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District Police service had confronted the suspect outside the school before he entered.

Instead, he said that a group of officers from various agencies entered the school immediately after arriving on scene but fell back after exchanging gunfire with the suspect. At least one officer was believed to have been hit during that exchange. During this time, they called for "additional resources, such as body armor, precision riflemen, and hostage negotiators," and began evacuating children from other classrooms.

The officers then stood by until a U.S. Border Patrol tactical team arrived, one hour later. That team eventually breached the classroom after a delay owing to their inability to unlock the classroom door, according to the Associated Press, where they shot and killed Ramos, who was hit 15 times. They proceeded to secure the area.

He also corrected earlier reports that Ramos's grandmother was dead. He said that she was alive and in stable condition and was responsible for calling 911 to alert police of Ramos's activity.

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Sounds like a more likely scenario than what has been presented before.

Steve Videtich said:

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This is a big problem for me when it comes to these instances. There were so many red flags prior to these events, but nothing was done or things were ignored. We have to change this. It goes back to my earlier post about parenting, discipline, mental health in our society today.

I'll share a story that's makes this hit close to home. My wife has been an elementary school teacher for about 25 years. About 2 months ago, a kid in the school posted a TikTok video talking about going to the school and killing everyone, with a slide show including pics of classmates and teachers. The video was seen by another student and reported by their parent to the school. It was then reported to the school district and the police, where it was handled from there.

When the parents were made aware of the issue, their first question was how and why did the elementary school get involved in this. Not a concern for who was threatened, why did their kid do this. No, why was his school involved. Another example of turning the cheek from the actual problem.

So, then comes the school district trial. The parents of course claimed he was just joking. Sure! They also said he was ADHD and prone to impulsive behavior. So, the district asks the kid, how did you get the pictures. His response, I took screen shots of everyone on his Chrome Book, emailed them to himself, and then made the video at home. So not impulsive behavior, but completely pre-meditated. The parents went on to say that the teachers didn't like him and were just out to get him. The principle presented a folder an inch thick of issues that have presented with this kid in 1 year.

I go back to what I said earlier. We have a serious issue with our young kids and young adults in how they are being raised. There is no discipline, no parenting, no accountability, and no teaching of right and wrong. We continue to not punish people when they do wrong. We look the other way because we excuse their upbringing or situation. Or, we just ignore the fact that there is evidently a problem.

You talk to any school teacher and with a pretty high percentage of accuracy, they can tell you what kind of adult each kid is going to grow into. All while their hands are tied by bad parents and bureaucracy from trying to do right by these kids. So, when these same kids turn around and create these horrific scenes year after year, our first response is to blame the gun.

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Dayum. Elementary aged. How does it happen so soon.

100% agree parenting is an issue:

• poor kids with one parent
• rich kids with parents who are absent in a different way
• parents try to attack anyone who dares to say little Johnny messed up

My kids went to a high performing HS, where all the kids are college-bound, and I've heard all kinds of stories of parents justify bad behavior to avoid derailing that path.