Huge package of gun control bills set to go to House floor vote:




https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/31/house-democrats-aim-to-pass-gun-control-legislation-by-early-june.html

Quote:

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House Democrats look to pass gun control legislation by early June

House Democrats will try to advance a raft of gun control bills on Thursday in the wake of two high-profile mass shootings that rocked the nation earlier this month.

The combined legislation would introduce a range of regulations on the sale or use of firearms and associated equipment.

The Raise the Age Act would lift the purchasing age for semiautomatic rifles from 18 to 21, while the Keep Americans Safe Act would outlaw the import, sale, manufacture, transfer or possession of a large-capacity magazine.

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Packchem91 said:

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Steve Videtich said:

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I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

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LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

^^^ Australians gave up their weapons several years back. After so many have been rounded up and put in COVID concentrations camps they may be 2nd guessing about now.

Chinese haven't had weapons either. I think Shanghai residents now jump out of high-rises... There is some film on an array of COVID enforcement actions being taken by the CCP. Not much can be done to resist armed thugs.

Steve Videtich said:

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Packchem91 said:

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Steve Videtich said:

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I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

---

LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

---

To Chem's earlier point though Steve, there's no reason to think of mental health and more prudent gun legislation as mutually exclusive.

It's not either/or.

Do we is a culture have worse mental health than other developed nations? Not sure, hard to quantify.

Do we have more than three times as many guns per capita as they do? Yes.

When we have three times the number of firearms owned by citizens in this country as the next-highest major world power, and twice as many as the number two country on the list, it's irrational to think that the sheer number of guns floating around the country isn't a major part of the problem, or that the prospective multifaceted solution will not include some measure of controlling access to firearms for people in our society that shouldn't reasonably have them.

Also, you keep making vague references to people in mental health crisis that want to hurt others being able to do so by different means even if their access to guns is more limited. They can stab people, or make pipe bombs, or run their cars into crowds, or whatever.

It's obviously true that they could potentially find other ways to hurt people, but few of those ways are both as accessible, lethal, and as efficient at killing large numbers of people quickly as guns are.

There is a reason why countries with fewer guns than ours have fewer mass casualty events in schools. People in those countries have the same opportunity to run cars into crowds, stab people, make pipe bombs, etc., yet they don't as frequently and even when they do, those means are not as lethal. You get fewer people hurt and also those that are hurt survive more frequently.

It doesn't pass the smell test that that reason is because those countries just happen to have exponentially better mental health than America.

Democrats in Congress and our anti AR15 posters have provided no multi faceted approach. Only ban guns. Ban magazines. Neither of which will ever happen and neither of which will work. But it's great for virtue signaling

Civilized said:

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Steve Videtich said:

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Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

---

LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

---

To Chem's earlier point though Steve, there's no reason to think of mental health and more prudent gun legislation as mutually exclusive.

It's not either/or.

Do we is a culture have worse mental health than other developed nations? Not sure, hard to quantify.

Do we have more than three times as many guns per capita as they do? Yes.

When we have three times the number of firearms owned by citizens in this country as the next-highest major world power, and twice as many as the number two country on the list, it's irrational to think that the sheer number of guns floating around the country isn't a major part of the problem, or that the prospective multifaceted solution will not include some measure of controlling access to firearms for people in our society that shouldn't reasonably have them.

Also, you keep making vague references to people in mental health crisis that want to hurt others being able to do so by different means even if their access to guns is more limited. They can stab people, or make pipe bombs, or run their cars into crowds, or whatever.

It's obviously true that they could potentially find other ways to hurt people, but few of those ways are both as accessible, lethal, and as efficient at killing large numbers of people quickly as guns are.

There is a reason why countries with fewer guns than ours have fewer mass casualty events in schools. People in those countries have the same opportunity to run cars into crowds, stab people, make pipe bombs, etc., yet they don't as frequently and even when they do, those means are not as lethal. You get fewer people hurt and also those that are hurt survive more frequently.

It doesn't pass the smell test that that reason is because those countries just happen to have exponentially better mental health than America.

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Holy ***** Do you people ever remember what has been posted throughout this thread? Or, do you read one post at a time and then react to it. Please show me where I said they're mutually exclusive.

My post was to point out things that can have a quicker effect than other things that need to be done. A gun ban is not quick. Neither are the mental health things that need to change. But there are things not being done that are already on the books but ignored.

Anybody that kills another person in a mad shooting, stabbing, vehicular death, whatever, and no matter what country they're in, what is the one thing in common with them all? Mental well being!

Steve Videtich said:

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Civilized said:

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Steve Videtich said:

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Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

---

LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

---

To Chem's earlier point though Steve, there's no reason to think of mental health and more prudent gun legislation as mutually exclusive.

It's not either/or.

Do we is a culture have worse mental health than other developed nations? Not sure, hard to quantify.

Do we have more than three times as many guns per capita as they do? Yes.

When we have three times the number of firearms owned by citizens in this country as the next-highest major world power, and twice as many as the number two country on the list, it's irrational to think that the sheer number of guns floating around the country isn't a major part of the problem, or that the prospective multifaceted solution will not include some measure of controlling access to firearms for people in our society that shouldn't reasonably have them.

Also, you keep making vague references to people in mental health crisis that want to hurt others being able to do so by different means even if their access to guns is more limited. They can stab people, or make pipe bombs, or run their cars into crowds, or whatever.

It's obviously true that they could potentially find other ways to hurt people, but few of those ways are both as accessible, lethal, and as efficient at killing large numbers of people quickly as guns are.

There is a reason why countries with fewer guns than ours have fewer mass casualty events in schools. People in those countries have the same opportunity to run cars into crowds, stab people, make pipe bombs, etc., yet they don't as frequently and even when they do, those means are not as lethal. You get fewer people hurt and also those that are hurt survive more frequently.

It doesn't pass the smell test that that reason is because those countries just happen to have exponentially better mental health than America.

---

Holy ***** Do you people ever remember what has been posted throughout this thread? Or, do you read one post at a time and then react to it. Please show me where I said they're mutually exclusive.

My post was to point out things that can have a quicker effect than other things that need to be done. A gun ban is not quick. Neither are the mental health things that need to change. But there are things not being done that are already on the books but ignored.

Anybody that kills another person in a mad shooting, stabbing, vehicular death, whatever, and no matter what country they're in, what is the one thing in common with them all? Mental well being!

---

So do we agree that the most effectual prospective solution would have a mental health component and an access to guns component?

Civilized said:

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Steve Videtich said:

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Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

---

LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

---

To Chem's earlier point though Steve, there's no reason to think of mental health and more prudent gun legislation as mutually exclusive.

It's not either/or.

Do we is a culture have worse mental health than other developed nations? Not sure, hard to quantify.

Do we have more than three times as many guns per capita as they do? Yes.

When we have three times the number of firearms owned by citizens in this country as the next-highest major world power, and twice as many as the number two country on the list, it's irrational to think that the sheer number of guns floating around the country isn't a major part of the problem, or that the prospective multifaceted solution will not include some measure of controlling access to firearms for people in our society that shouldn't reasonably have them.

Also, you keep making vague references to people in mental health crisis that want to hurt others being able to do so by different means even if their access to guns is more limited. They can stab people, or make pipe bombs, or run their cars into crowds, or whatever.

It's obviously true that they could potentially find other ways to hurt people, but few of those ways are both as accessible, lethal, and as efficient at killing large numbers of people quickly as guns are.

There is a reason why countries with fewer guns than ours have fewer mass casualty events in schools. People in those countries have the same opportunity to run cars into crowds, stab people, make pipe bombs, etc., yet they don't as frequently and even when they do, those means are not as lethal. You get fewer people hurt and also those that are hurt survive more frequently.

It doesn't pass the smell test that that reason is because those countries just happen to have exponentially better mental health than America.

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Whether you and your lefty brethren want or will admit it what do we have that the other countries do not have that contributes to over 70% of all gun violence?

A demographic that sees no problem in shooting up houses on a nightly basis. Funerals and churches. Family reunion picnics. Children's birthday parties. Don't forget some of their favorites... "Chuck 'E' Cheese," "Buffalo Wild Wings," and "Olive Garden."

When you and your party totally ignore these and have for decades, your limited credibility takes more damage than any legitimate solution you propose credit. You know why that is don't you?

I'll hang up and listen.

Civilized said:

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Steve Videtich said:

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Civilized said:

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Steve Videtich said:

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Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

---

LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

---

To Chem's earlier point though Steve, there's no reason to think of mental health and more prudent gun legislation as mutually exclusive.

It's not either/or.

Do we is a culture have worse mental health than other developed nations? Not sure, hard to quantify.

Do we have more than three times as many guns per capita as they do? Yes.

When we have three times the number of firearms owned by citizens in this country as the next-highest major world power, and twice as many as the number two country on the list, it's irrational to think that the sheer number of guns floating around the country isn't a major part of the problem, or that the prospective multifaceted solution will not include some measure of controlling access to firearms for people in our society that shouldn't reasonably have them.

Also, you keep making vague references to people in mental health crisis that want to hurt others being able to do so by different means even if their access to guns is more limited. They can stab people, or make pipe bombs, or run their cars into crowds, or whatever.

It's obviously true that they could potentially find other ways to hurt people, but few of those ways are both as accessible, lethal, and as efficient at killing large numbers of people quickly as guns are.

There is a reason why countries with fewer guns than ours have fewer mass casualty events in schools. People in those countries have the same opportunity to run cars into crowds, stab people, make pipe bombs, etc., yet they don't as frequently and even when they do, those means are not as lethal. You get fewer people hurt and also those that are hurt survive more frequently.

It doesn't pass the smell test that that reason is because those countries just happen to have exponentially better mental health than America.

---

Holy ***** Do you people ever remember what has been posted throughout this thread? Or, do you read one post at a time and then react to it. Please show me where I said they're mutually exclusive.

My post was to point out things that can have a quicker effect than other things that need to be done. A gun ban is not quick. Neither are the mental health things that need to change. But there are things not being done that are already on the books but ignored.

Anybody that kills another person in a mad shooting, stabbing, vehicular death, whatever, and no matter what country they're in, what is the one thing in common with them all? Mental well being!

---

So do we agree that the most effectual prospective solution would have a mental health component and an access to guns component?

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I have said mental health reform and red flags for people with a criminal history and mental issues. Yes

ETA: I have not said banning guns though.

Steve Videtich said:

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Civilized said:

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Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

---

LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

---

To Chem's earlier point though Steve, there's no reason to think of mental health and more prudent gun legislation as mutually exclusive.

It's not either/or.

Do we is a culture have worse mental health than other developed nations? Not sure, hard to quantify.

Do we have more than three times as many guns per capita as they do? Yes.

When we have three times the number of firearms owned by citizens in this country as the next-highest major world power, and twice as many as the number two country on the list, it's irrational to think that the sheer number of guns floating around the country isn't a major part of the problem, or that the prospective multifaceted solution will not include some measure of controlling access to firearms for people in our society that shouldn't reasonably have them.

Also, you keep making vague references to people in mental health crisis that want to hurt others being able to do so by different means even if their access to guns is more limited. They can stab people, or make pipe bombs, or run their cars into crowds, or whatever.

It's obviously true that they could potentially find other ways to hurt people, but few of those ways are both as accessible, lethal, and as efficient at killing large numbers of people quickly as guns are.

There is a reason why countries with fewer guns than ours have fewer mass casualty events in schools. People in those countries have the same opportunity to run cars into crowds, stab people, make pipe bombs, etc., yet they don't as frequently and even when they do, those means are not as lethal. You get fewer people hurt and also those that are hurt survive more frequently.

It doesn't pass the smell test that that reason is because those countries just happen to have exponentially better mental health than America.

---

Holy ***** Do you people ever remember what has been posted throughout this thread? Or, do you read one post at a time and then react to it. Please show me where I said they're mutually exclusive.

My post was to point out things that can have a quicker effect than other things that need to be done. A gun ban is not quick. Neither are the mental health things that need to change. But there are things not being done that are already on the books but ignored.

Anybody that kills another person in a mad shooting, stabbing, vehicular death, whatever, and no matter what country they're in, what is the one thing in common with them all? Mental well being!

---

Are we sure though? Or are sometimes just angry. The FBI study I posted earlier -- many of those wre are the workplace. Were those people showing signs of being mentally unwell, or were they just really angry at not getting a promotion, and had access to weapons?

Clearly, mental health is a major deal. So who do we hold accountable for this Uvalde kid being able to buy 2 ARs? The gun seller? Someone who didn't report him for doing other things? I'm all for it...if you serve a drink to a drunk person who then crashes into a school...the bar would be accountable. How do we do that in the gun/ammo process?

We talk about changes of society...well one thing that has also changed is we don't want ot get involved in other people's business. My neighbor is acting weird...well, I'll just stay on my porch when they are outside and ignore them. Should a teacher report it....we have teacher / spouses here....I bet they would incur a ton more paperwork and loss of personal time if they reported that student x has been drawing violent pictures in class. Do they take that on? Do we hold them accountable if they don't?

BBW12OG said:

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Civilized said:

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Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

---

LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

---

To Chem's earlier point though Steve, there's no reason to think of mental health and more prudent gun legislation as mutually exclusive.

It's not either/or.

Do we is a culture have worse mental health than other developed nations? Not sure, hard to quantify.

Do we have more than three times as many guns per capita as they do? Yes.

When we have three times the number of firearms owned by citizens in this country as the next-highest major world power, and twice as many as the number two country on the list, it's irrational to think that the sheer number of guns floating around the country isn't a major part of the problem, or that the prospective multifaceted solution will not include some measure of controlling access to firearms for people in our society that shouldn't reasonably have them.

Also, you keep making vague references to people in mental health crisis that want to hurt others being able to do so by different means even if their access to guns is more limited. They can stab people, or make pipe bombs, or run their cars into crowds, or whatever.

It's obviously true that they could potentially find other ways to hurt people, but few of those ways are both as accessible, lethal, and as efficient at killing large numbers of people quickly as guns are.

There is a reason why countries with fewer guns than ours have fewer mass casualty events in schools. People in those countries have the same opportunity to run cars into crowds, stab people, make pipe bombs, etc., yet they don't as frequently and even when they do, those means are not as lethal. You get fewer people hurt and also those that are hurt survive more frequently.

It doesn't pass the smell test that that reason is because those countries just happen to have exponentially better mental health than America.

---

Whether you and your lefty brethren want or will admit it what do we have that the other countries do not have that contributes to over 70% of all gun violence?

A demographic that sees no problem in shooting up houses on a nightly basis. Funerals and churches. Family reunion picnics. Children's birthday parties. Don't forget some of their favorites... "Chuck 'E' Cheese," "Buffalo Wild Wings," and "Olive Garden."

When you and your party totally ignore these and have for decades, your limited credibility takes more damage than any legitimate solution you propose credit. You know why that is don't you?

I'll hang up and listen.

---

LOL. Here we go again. Say what you REALLY want to say. How are we different from other countries?
Name a country that doesn't have large pockets of impoverished people living in bad conditions? So how exactly are we unique

Steve Videtich said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

---

LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

---

To Chem's earlier point though Steve, there's no reason to think of mental health and more prudent gun legislation as mutually exclusive.

It's not either/or.

Do we is a culture have worse mental health than other developed nations? Not sure, hard to quantify.

Do we have more than three times as many guns per capita as they do? Yes.

When we have three times the number of firearms owned by citizens in this country as the next-highest major world power, and twice as many as the number two country on the list, it's irrational to think that the sheer number of guns floating around the country isn't a major part of the problem, or that the prospective multifaceted solution will not include some measure of controlling access to firearms for people in our society that shouldn't reasonably have them.

Also, you keep making vague references to people in mental health crisis that want to hurt others being able to do so by different means even if their access to guns is more limited. They can stab people, or make pipe bombs, or run their cars into crowds, or whatever.

It's obviously true that they could potentially find other ways to hurt people, but few of those ways are both as accessible, lethal, and as efficient at killing large numbers of people quickly as guns are.

There is a reason why countries with fewer guns than ours have fewer mass casualty events in schools. People in those countries have the same opportunity to run cars into crowds, stab people, make pipe bombs, etc., yet they don't as frequently and even when they do, those means are not as lethal. You get fewer people hurt and also those that are hurt survive more frequently.

It doesn't pass the smell test that that reason is because those countries just happen to have exponentially better mental health than America.

---

Holy ***** Do you people ever remember what has been posted throughout this thread? Or, do you read one post at a time and then react to it. Please show me where I said they're mutually exclusive.

My post was to point out things that can have a quicker effect than other things that need to be done. A gun ban is not quick. Neither are the mental health things that need to change. But there are things not being done that are already on the books but ignored.

Anybody that kills another person in a mad shooting, stabbing, vehicular death, whatever, and no matter what country they're in, what is the one thing in common with them all? Mental well being!

---

So do we agree that the most effectual prospective solution would have a mental health component and an access to guns component?

---

I have said mental health reform and red flags for people with a criminal history and mental issues. Yes

ETA: I have not said banning guns though.

---

well of course not, you need to be able to defend yourself against all those random knife and car mass-murderers out there that you keep harping on, lol.
I kid, I kid. But the sudden focus on people doing those things is interesting, coming on the heels of 35 people being killed in two incidents in 2 weeks with ARs.
You'd have never made a FG if the posts were moved that much back when you were kicking.

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

---

LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

---

To Chem's earlier point though Steve, there's no reason to think of mental health and more prudent gun legislation as mutually exclusive.

It's not either/or.

Do we is a culture have worse mental health than other developed nations? Not sure, hard to quantify.

Do we have more than three times as many guns per capita as they do? Yes.

When we have three times the number of firearms owned by citizens in this country as the next-highest major world power, and twice as many as the number two country on the list, it's irrational to think that the sheer number of guns floating around the country isn't a major part of the problem, or that the prospective multifaceted solution will not include some measure of controlling access to firearms for people in our society that shouldn't reasonably have them.

Also, you keep making vague references to people in mental health crisis that want to hurt others being able to do so by different means even if their access to guns is more limited. They can stab people, or make pipe bombs, or run their cars into crowds, or whatever.

It's obviously true that they could potentially find other ways to hurt people, but few of those ways are both as accessible, lethal, and as efficient at killing large numbers of people quickly as guns are.

There is a reason why countries with fewer guns than ours have fewer mass casualty events in schools. People in those countries have the same opportunity to run cars into crowds, stab people, make pipe bombs, etc., yet they don't as frequently and even when they do, those means are not as lethal. You get fewer people hurt and also those that are hurt survive more frequently.

It doesn't pass the smell test that that reason is because those countries just happen to have exponentially better mental health than America.

---

Holy ***** Do you people ever remember what has been posted throughout this thread? Or, do you read one post at a time and then react to it. Please show me where I said they're mutually exclusive.

My post was to point out things that can have a quicker effect than other things that need to be done. A gun ban is not quick. Neither are the mental health things that need to change. But there are things not being done that are already on the books but ignored.

Anybody that kills another person in a mad shooting, stabbing, vehicular death, whatever, and no matter what country they're in, what is the one thing in common with them all? Mental well being!

---

Are we sure though? Or are sometimes just angry. The FBI study I posted earlier -- many of those wre are the workplace. Were those people showing signs of being mentally unwell, or were they just really angry at not getting a promotion, and had access to weapons?

Clearly, mental health is a major deal. So who do we hold accountable for this Uvalde kid being able to buy 2 ARs? The gun seller? Someone who didn't report him for doing other things? I'm all for it...if you serve a drink to a drunk person who then crashes into a school...the bar would be accountable. How do we do that in the gun/ammo process?

We talk about changes of society...well one thing that has also changed is we don't want ot get involved in other people's business. My neighbor is acting weird...well, I'll just stay on my porch when they are outside and ignore them. Should a teacher report it....we have teacher / spouses here....I bet they would incur a ton more paperwork and loss of personal time if they reported that student x has been drawing violent pictures in class. Do they take that on? Do we hold them accountable if they don't?

---

Do you want to see changes or do you want to sit on a message board and complain about it? I already told you that the shooter in Texas had prior issues that weren't reported or nothing was done that ended up in the system. If it had, he wouldn't have been able to purchase the AR's. Again red flags ignored.

The workplace is no different, whether it's mental health or temporary insanity. It's still a mental issue. Why are we trying to parse these mental issues out.

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

---

LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

---

To Chem's earlier point though Steve, there's no reason to think of mental health and more prudent gun legislation as mutually exclusive.

It's not either/or.

Do we is a culture have worse mental health than other developed nations? Not sure, hard to quantify.

Do we have more than three times as many guns per capita as they do? Yes.

When we have three times the number of firearms owned by citizens in this country as the next-highest major world power, and twice as many as the number two country on the list, it's irrational to think that the sheer number of guns floating around the country isn't a major part of the problem, or that the prospective multifaceted solution will not include some measure of controlling access to firearms for people in our society that shouldn't reasonably have them.

Also, you keep making vague references to people in mental health crisis that want to hurt others being able to do so by different means even if their access to guns is more limited. They can stab people, or make pipe bombs, or run their cars into crowds, or whatever.

It's obviously true that they could potentially find other ways to hurt people, but few of those ways are both as accessible, lethal, and as efficient at killing large numbers of people quickly as guns are.

There is a reason why countries with fewer guns than ours have fewer mass casualty events in schools. People in those countries have the same opportunity to run cars into crowds, stab people, make pipe bombs, etc., yet they don't as frequently and even when they do, those means are not as lethal. You get fewer people hurt and also those that are hurt survive more frequently.

It doesn't pass the smell test that that reason is because those countries just happen to have exponentially better mental health than America.

---

Holy ***** Do you people ever remember what has been posted throughout this thread? Or, do you read one post at a time and then react to it. Please show me where I said they're mutually exclusive.

My post was to point out things that can have a quicker effect than other things that need to be done. A gun ban is not quick. Neither are the mental health things that need to change. But there are things not being done that are already on the books but ignored.

Anybody that kills another person in a mad shooting, stabbing, vehicular death, whatever, and no matter what country they're in, what is the one thing in common with them all? Mental well being!

---

So do we agree that the most effectual prospective solution would have a mental health component and an access to guns component?

---

I have said mental health reform and red flags for people with a criminal history and mental issues. Yes

ETA: I have not said banning guns though.

---

well of course not, you need to be able to defend yourself against all those random knife and car mass-murderers out there that you keep harping on, lol.
I kid, I kid. But the sudden focus on people doing those things is interesting, coming on the heels of 35 people being killed in two incidents in 2 weeks with ARs.
You'd have never made a FG if the posts were moved that much back when you were kicking.

---

So you're only focus is on the 35 instead of thousands?

Do all these other countries have media berating them on a nightly basis with hate based narratives aimed at driving wedges in various groups across the country? Are all those folks constantly accused by a racist government of being racists themselves? Do all those folks live in a country with a political party hell bent on killing up to a million of their fellow citizens on a yearly basis? Do those folks live with virtue signalers more interested in inducing fear for political gain than doing anything to reduce it?

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

---

LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

---

To Chem's earlier point though Steve, there's no reason to think of mental health and more prudent gun legislation as mutually exclusive.

It's not either/or.

Do we is a culture have worse mental health than other developed nations? Not sure, hard to quantify.

Do we have more than three times as many guns per capita as they do? Yes.

When we have three times the number of firearms owned by citizens in this country as the next-highest major world power, and twice as many as the number two country on the list, it's irrational to think that the sheer number of guns floating around the country isn't a major part of the problem, or that the prospective multifaceted solution will not include some measure of controlling access to firearms for people in our society that shouldn't reasonably have them.

Also, you keep making vague references to people in mental health crisis that want to hurt others being able to do so by different means even if their access to guns is more limited. They can stab people, or make pipe bombs, or run their cars into crowds, or whatever.

It's obviously true that they could potentially find other ways to hurt people, but few of those ways are both as accessible, lethal, and as efficient at killing large numbers of people quickly as guns are.

There is a reason why countries with fewer guns than ours have fewer mass casualty events in schools. People in those countries have the same opportunity to run cars into crowds, stab people, make pipe bombs, etc., yet they don't as frequently and even when they do, those means are not as lethal. You get fewer people hurt and also those that are hurt survive more frequently.

It doesn't pass the smell test that that reason is because those countries just happen to have exponentially better mental health than America.

---

Holy ***** Do you people ever remember what has been posted throughout this thread? Or, do you read one post at a time and then react to it. Please show me where I said they're mutually exclusive.

My post was to point out things that can have a quicker effect than other things that need to be done. A gun ban is not quick. Neither are the mental health things that need to change. But there are things not being done that are already on the books but ignored.

Anybody that kills another person in a mad shooting, stabbing, vehicular death, whatever, and no matter what country they're in, what is the one thing in common with them all? Mental well being!

---

Are we sure though? Or are sometimes just angry. The FBI study I posted earlier -- many of those wre are the workplace. Were those people showing signs of being mentally unwell, or were they just really angry at not getting a promotion, and had access to weapons?

Clearly, mental health is a major deal. So who do we hold accountable for this Uvalde kid being able to buy 2 ARs? The gun seller? Someone who didn't report him for doing other things? I'm all for it...if you serve a drink to a drunk person who then crashes into a school...the bar would be accountable. How do we do that in the gun/ammo process?

We talk about changes of society...well one thing that has also changed is we don't want ot get involved in other people's business. My neighbor is acting weird...well, I'll just stay on my porch when they are outside and ignore them. Should a teacher report it....we have teacher / spouses here....I bet they would incur a ton more paperwork and loss of personal time if they reported that student x has been drawing violent pictures in class. Do they take that on? Do we hold them accountable if they don't?

---

Do you want to see changes or do you want to sit on a message board and complain about it? I already told you that the shooter in Texas had prior issues that weren't reported or nothing was done that ended up in the system. If it had, he wouldn't have been able to purchase the AR's. Again red flags ignored.

The workplace is no different, whether it's mental health or temporary insanity. It's still a mental issue. Why are we trying to parse these mental issues out.

---

Said as you sit on a message board and complain about it?

I'm not sure what you're arguing about --- I just said if he had known issues, who can we go arrest and hold accountable? I'm all for that. The system makes billions of gun / ammo sales, lets start making those who don't take scrutiny in their sales VERY accountable.

You also asked why aren't we doing things more immediately about mental health, and so I answered you --- because it means people have to get invovled and get their hands dirty....and we don't want to do those things anymore.

Quote:

---

well of course not, you need to be able to defend yourself against all those random knife and car mass-murderers out there that you keep harping on, lol.
I kid, I kid. But the sudden focus on people doing those things is interesting, coming on the heels of 35 people being killed in two incidents in 2 weeks with ARs.
You'd have never made a FG if the posts were moved that much back when you were kicking.

---

For someone who has ranted endlessly about the "mean tweets" posted by HWSNBN, you have demonstrated a propensity for similar behavior. You're crossing the line again, my friend.

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

---

LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

---

To Chem's earlier point though Steve, there's no reason to think of mental health and more prudent gun legislation as mutually exclusive.

It's not either/or.

Do we is a culture have worse mental health than other developed nations? Not sure, hard to quantify.

Do we have more than three times as many guns per capita as they do? Yes.

When we have three times the number of firearms owned by citizens in this country as the next-highest major world power, and twice as many as the number two country on the list, it's irrational to think that the sheer number of guns floating around the country isn't a major part of the problem, or that the prospective multifaceted solution will not include some measure of controlling access to firearms for people in our society that shouldn't reasonably have them.

Also, you keep making vague references to people in mental health crisis that want to hurt others being able to do so by different means even if their access to guns is more limited. They can stab people, or make pipe bombs, or run their cars into crowds, or whatever.

It's obviously true that they could potentially find other ways to hurt people, but few of those ways are both as accessible, lethal, and as efficient at killing large numbers of people quickly as guns are.

There is a reason why countries with fewer guns than ours have fewer mass casualty events in schools. People in those countries have the same opportunity to run cars into crowds, stab people, make pipe bombs, etc., yet they don't as frequently and even when they do, those means are not as lethal. You get fewer people hurt and also those that are hurt survive more frequently.

It doesn't pass the smell test that that reason is because those countries just happen to have exponentially better mental health than America.

---

Holy ***** Do you people ever remember what has been posted throughout this thread? Or, do you read one post at a time and then react to it. Please show me where I said they're mutually exclusive.

My post was to point out things that can have a quicker effect than other things that need to be done. A gun ban is not quick. Neither are the mental health things that need to change. But there are things not being done that are already on the books but ignored.

Anybody that kills another person in a mad shooting, stabbing, vehicular death, whatever, and no matter what country they're in, what is the one thing in common with them all? Mental well being!

---

So do we agree that the most effectual prospective solution would have a mental health component and an access to guns component?

---

I have said mental health reform and red flags for people with a criminal history and mental issues. Yes

ETA: I have not said banning guns though.

---

well of course not, you need to be able to defend yourself against all those random knife and car mass-murderers out there that you keep harping on, lol.
I kid, I kid. But the sudden focus on people doing those things is interesting, coming on the heels of 35 people being killed in two incidents in 2 weeks with ARs.
You'd have never made a FG if the posts were moved that much back when you were kicking.

---

So you're only focus is on the 35 instead of thousands?

---

Seriously? And yet you claim to want to have good faith debate and not an echo chamber?

I ask you why the sudden interest in knives and car attacks (which happen almost never) when we had 2 major news stories in the month of May that involved ARs, and several more that were fortunately not as severe, and that is your reaction? Come on.

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

---

LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

---

To Chem's earlier point though Steve, there's no reason to think of mental health and more prudent gun legislation as mutually exclusive.

It's not either/or.

Do we is a culture have worse mental health than other developed nations? Not sure, hard to quantify.

Do we have more than three times as many guns per capita as they do? Yes.

When we have three times the number of firearms owned by citizens in this country as the next-highest major world power, and twice as many as the number two country on the list, it's irrational to think that the sheer number of guns floating around the country isn't a major part of the problem, or that the prospective multifaceted solution will not include some measure of controlling access to firearms for people in our society that shouldn't reasonably have them.

Also, you keep making vague references to people in mental health crisis that want to hurt others being able to do so by different means even if their access to guns is more limited. They can stab people, or make pipe bombs, or run their cars into crowds, or whatever.

It's obviously true that they could potentially find other ways to hurt people, but few of those ways are both as accessible, lethal, and as efficient at killing large numbers of people quickly as guns are.

There is a reason why countries with fewer guns than ours have fewer mass casualty events in schools. People in those countries have the same opportunity to run cars into crowds, stab people, make pipe bombs, etc., yet they don't as frequently and even when they do, those means are not as lethal. You get fewer people hurt and also those that are hurt survive more frequently.

It doesn't pass the smell test that that reason is because those countries just happen to have exponentially better mental health than America.

---

Holy ***** Do you people ever remember what has been posted throughout this thread? Or, do you read one post at a time and then react to it. Please show me where I said they're mutually exclusive.

My post was to point out things that can have a quicker effect than other things that need to be done. A gun ban is not quick. Neither are the mental health things that need to change. But there are things not being done that are already on the books but ignored.

Anybody that kills another person in a mad shooting, stabbing, vehicular death, whatever, and no matter what country they're in, what is the one thing in common with them all? Mental well being!

---

Are we sure though? Or are sometimes just angry. The FBI study I posted earlier -- many of those wre are the workplace. Were those people showing signs of being mentally unwell, or were they just really angry at not getting a promotion, and had access to weapons?

Clearly, mental health is a major deal. So who do we hold accountable for this Uvalde kid being able to buy 2 ARs? The gun seller? Someone who didn't report him for doing other things? I'm all for it...if you serve a drink to a drunk person who then crashes into a school...the bar would be accountable. How do we do that in the gun/ammo process?

We talk about changes of society...well one thing that has also changed is we don't want ot get involved in other people's business. My neighbor is acting weird...well, I'll just stay on my porch when they are outside and ignore them. Should a teacher report it....we have teacher / spouses here....I bet they would incur a ton more paperwork and loss of personal time if they reported that student x has been drawing violent pictures in class. Do they take that on? Do we hold them accountable if they don't?

---

Do you want to see changes or do you want to sit on a message board and complain about it? I already told you that the shooter in Texas had prior issues that weren't reported or nothing was done that ended up in the system. If it had, he wouldn't have been able to purchase the AR's. Again red flags ignored.

The workplace is no different, whether it's mental health or temporary insanity. It's still a mental issue. Why are we trying to parse these mental issues out.

---

Said as you sit on a message board and complain about it?

I'm not sure what you're arguing about --- I just said if he had known issues, who can we go arrest and hold accountable? I'm all for that. The system makes billions of gun / ammo sales, lets start making those who don't take scrutiny in their sales VERY accountable.

You also asked why aren't we doing things more immediately about mental health, and so I answered you --- because it means people have to get invovled and get their hands dirty....and we don't want to do those things anymore.

---

Which goes back to the breakdown of a sense of community and this a breakdown in society in general. I feel like I'm discussing changes while you keep making excuses.

PackFansXL said:

---

Quote:

---

well of course not, you need to be able to defend yourself against all those random knife and car mass-murderers out there that you keep harping on, lol.
I kid, I kid. But the sudden focus on people doing those things is interesting, coming on the heels of 35 people being killed in two incidents in 2 weeks with ARs.
You'd have never made a FG if the posts were moved that much back when you were kicking.

---

For someone who has ranted endlessly about the "mean tweets" posted by HWSNBN, you have demonstrated a propensity for similar behavior. You're crossing the line again, my friend.

---

Oh lighten up....it was a joke. When someone starts injecting knives and cars into a gun / mental health topic, that is a bit of moving the FG.
'
Steve did it. He was also a FG kicker, so it was a play on words. This seems straight forward, no?
I didn't call him dumb, or question his ethnicity, or anything like that, and Id think you could tell the difference.

BBW12OG said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

---

LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

---

To Chem's earlier point though Steve, there's no reason to think of mental health and more prudent gun legislation as mutually exclusive.

It's not either/or.

Do we is a culture have worse mental health than other developed nations? Not sure, hard to quantify.

Do we have more than three times as many guns per capita as they do? Yes.

When we have three times the number of firearms owned by citizens in this country as the next-highest major world power, and twice as many as the number two country on the list, it's irrational to think that the sheer number of guns floating around the country isn't a major part of the problem, or that the prospective multifaceted solution will not include some measure of controlling access to firearms for people in our society that shouldn't reasonably have them.

Also, you keep making vague references to people in mental health crisis that want to hurt others being able to do so by different means even if their access to guns is more limited. They can stab people, or make pipe bombs, or run their cars into crowds, or whatever.

It's obviously true that they could potentially find other ways to hurt people, but few of those ways are both as accessible, lethal, and as efficient at killing large numbers of people quickly as guns are.

There is a reason why countries with fewer guns than ours have fewer mass casualty events in schools. People in those countries have the same opportunity to run cars into crowds, stab people, make pipe bombs, etc., yet they don't as frequently and even when they do, those means are not as lethal. You get fewer people hurt and also those that are hurt survive more frequently.

It doesn't pass the smell test that that reason is because those countries just happen to have exponentially better mental health than America.

---

Whether you and your lefty brethren want or will admit it what do we have that the other countries do not have that contributes to over 70% of all gun violence?

A demographic that sees no problem in shooting up houses on a nightly basis. Funerals and churches. Family reunion picnics. Children's birthday parties. Don't forget some of their favorites... "Chuck 'E' Cheese," "Buffalo Wild Wings," and "Olive Garden."

When you and your party totally ignore these and have for decades, your limited credibility takes more damage than any legitimate solution you propose credit. You know why that is don't you?

I'll hang up and listen.

---

I started another thread for that.

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

---

LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

---

To Chem's earlier point though Steve, there's no reason to think of mental health and more prudent gun legislation as mutually exclusive.

It's not either/or.

Do we is a culture have worse mental health than other developed nations? Not sure, hard to quantify.

Do we have more than three times as many guns per capita as they do? Yes.

When we have three times the number of firearms owned by citizens in this country as the next-highest major world power, and twice as many as the number two country on the list, it's irrational to think that the sheer number of guns floating around the country isn't a major part of the problem, or that the prospective multifaceted solution will not include some measure of controlling access to firearms for people in our society that shouldn't reasonably have them.

Also, you keep making vague references to people in mental health crisis that want to hurt others being able to do so by different means even if their access to guns is more limited. They can stab people, or make pipe bombs, or run their cars into crowds, or whatever.

It's obviously true that they could potentially find other ways to hurt people, but few of those ways are both as accessible, lethal, and as efficient at killing large numbers of people quickly as guns are.

There is a reason why countries with fewer guns than ours have fewer mass casualty events in schools. People in those countries have the same opportunity to run cars into crowds, stab people, make pipe bombs, etc., yet they don't as frequently and even when they do, those means are not as lethal. You get fewer people hurt and also those that are hurt survive more frequently.

It doesn't pass the smell test that that reason is because those countries just happen to have exponentially better mental health than America.

---

Holy ***** Do you people ever remember what has been posted throughout this thread? Or, do you read one post at a time and then react to it. Please show me where I said they're mutually exclusive.

My post was to point out things that can have a quicker effect than other things that need to be done. A gun ban is not quick. Neither are the mental health things that need to change. But there are things not being done that are already on the books but ignored.

Anybody that kills another person in a mad shooting, stabbing, vehicular death, whatever, and no matter what country they're in, what is the one thing in common with them all? Mental well being!

---

Are we sure though? Or are sometimes just angry. The FBI study I posted earlier -- many of those wre are the workplace. Were those people showing signs of being mentally unwell, or were they just really angry at not getting a promotion, and had access to weapons?

Clearly, mental health is a major deal. So who do we hold accountable for this Uvalde kid being able to buy 2 ARs? The gun seller? Someone who didn't report him for doing other things? I'm all for it...if you serve a drink to a drunk person who then crashes into a school...the bar would be accountable. How do we do that in the gun/ammo process?

We talk about changes of society...well one thing that has also changed is we don't want ot get involved in other people's business. My neighbor is acting weird...well, I'll just stay on my porch when they are outside and ignore them. Should a teacher report it....we have teacher / spouses here....I bet they would incur a ton more paperwork and loss of personal time if they reported that student x has been drawing violent pictures in class. Do they take that on? Do we hold them accountable if they don't?

---

Do you want to see changes or do you want to sit on a message board and complain about it? I already told you that the shooter in Texas had prior issues that weren't reported or nothing was done that ended up in the system. If it had, he wouldn't have been able to purchase the AR's. Again red flags ignored.

The workplace is no different, whether it's mental health or temporary insanity. It's still a mental issue. Why are we trying to parse these mental issues out.

---

Said as you sit on a message board and complain about it?

I'm not sure what you're arguing about --- I just said if he had known issues, who can we go arrest and hold accountable? I'm all for that. The system makes billions of gun / ammo sales, lets start making those who don't take scrutiny in their sales VERY accountable.

You also asked why aren't we doing things more immediately about mental health, and so I answered you --- because it means people have to get invovled and get their hands dirty....and we don't want to do those things anymore.

---

Which goes back to the breakdown of a sense of community and this a breakdown in society in general. I feel like I'm discussing changes while you keep making excuses.

---

No, we are in complete agreement with each othe there -- we have had a breakdown in community and society, yet we got people like Ted Cruz screaming that we should still trot out the exact same "get em while you can" gun access as we did 250 years ago.

Things have changed from when the founding fathers worked this out -- most significantly the weapons available but also the lack of need. We had just escaped Britian....i know GP, BBW, Werewolf and some others here are adamant that gubmint is fixin to come kill us all and attack the civilians like we would have had reason to fear in 1780s but thats just poppycock today.

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

---

LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

---

To Chem's earlier point though Steve, there's no reason to think of mental health and more prudent gun legislation as mutually exclusive.

It's not either/or.

Do we is a culture have worse mental health than other developed nations? Not sure, hard to quantify.

Do we have more than three times as many guns per capita as they do? Yes.

When we have three times the number of firearms owned by citizens in this country as the next-highest major world power, and twice as many as the number two country on the list, it's irrational to think that the sheer number of guns floating around the country isn't a major part of the problem, or that the prospective multifaceted solution will not include some measure of controlling access to firearms for people in our society that shouldn't reasonably have them.

Also, you keep making vague references to people in mental health crisis that want to hurt others being able to do so by different means even if their access to guns is more limited. They can stab people, or make pipe bombs, or run their cars into crowds, or whatever.

It's obviously true that they could potentially find other ways to hurt people, but few of those ways are both as accessible, lethal, and as efficient at killing large numbers of people quickly as guns are.

There is a reason why countries with fewer guns than ours have fewer mass casualty events in schools. People in those countries have the same opportunity to run cars into crowds, stab people, make pipe bombs, etc., yet they don't as frequently and even when they do, those means are not as lethal. You get fewer people hurt and also those that are hurt survive more frequently.

It doesn't pass the smell test that that reason is because those countries just happen to have exponentially better mental health than America.

---

Holy ***** Do you people ever remember what has been posted throughout this thread? Or, do you read one post at a time and then react to it. Please show me where I said they're mutually exclusive.

My post was to point out things that can have a quicker effect than other things that need to be done. A gun ban is not quick. Neither are the mental health things that need to change. But there are things not being done that are already on the books but ignored.

Anybody that kills another person in a mad shooting, stabbing, vehicular death, whatever, and no matter what country they're in, what is the one thing in common with them all? Mental well being!

---

So do we agree that the most effectual prospective solution would have a mental health component and an access to guns component?

---

I have said mental health reform and red flags for people with a criminal history and mental issues. Yes

ETA: I have not said banning guns though.

---

well of course not, you need to be able to defend yourself against all those random knife and car mass-murderers out there that you keep harping on, lol.
I kid, I kid. But the sudden focus on people doing those things is interesting, coming on the heels of 35 people being killed in two incidents in 2 weeks with ARs.
You'd have never made a FG if the posts were moved that much back when you were kicking.

---

So you're only focus is on the 35 instead of thousands?

---

Seriously? And yet you claim to want to have good faith debate and not an echo chamber?

I ask you why the sudden interest in knives and car attacks (which happen almost never) when we had 2 major news stories in the month of May that involved ARs, and several more that were fortunately not as severe, and that is your reaction? Come on.

---

It's not a sudden interest. It's the next step for those wanting to hurt people if you want ban guns. You think a ban on one weapon stops the intent of sick people?

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

---

LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

---

To Chem's earlier point though Steve, there's no reason to think of mental health and more prudent gun legislation as mutually exclusive.

It's not either/or.

Do we is a culture have worse mental health than other developed nations? Not sure, hard to quantify.

Do we have more than three times as many guns per capita as they do? Yes.

When we have three times the number of firearms owned by citizens in this country as the next-highest major world power, and twice as many as the number two country on the list, it's irrational to think that the sheer number of guns floating around the country isn't a major part of the problem, or that the prospective multifaceted solution will not include some measure of controlling access to firearms for people in our society that shouldn't reasonably have them.

Also, you keep making vague references to people in mental health crisis that want to hurt others being able to do so by different means even if their access to guns is more limited. They can stab people, or make pipe bombs, or run their cars into crowds, or whatever.

It's obviously true that they could potentially find other ways to hurt people, but few of those ways are both as accessible, lethal, and as efficient at killing large numbers of people quickly as guns are.

There is a reason why countries with fewer guns than ours have fewer mass casualty events in schools. People in those countries have the same opportunity to run cars into crowds, stab people, make pipe bombs, etc., yet they don't as frequently and even when they do, those means are not as lethal. You get fewer people hurt and also those that are hurt survive more frequently.

It doesn't pass the smell test that that reason is because those countries just happen to have exponentially better mental health than America.

---

Holy ***** Do you people ever remember what has been posted throughout this thread? Or, do you read one post at a time and then react to it. Please show me where I said they're mutually exclusive.

My post was to point out things that can have a quicker effect than other things that need to be done. A gun ban is not quick. Neither are the mental health things that need to change. But there are things not being done that are already on the books but ignored.

Anybody that kills another person in a mad shooting, stabbing, vehicular death, whatever, and no matter what country they're in, what is the one thing in common with them all? Mental well being!

---

Are we sure though? Or are sometimes just angry. The FBI study I posted earlier -- many of those wre are the workplace. Were those people showing signs of being mentally unwell, or were they just really angry at not getting a promotion, and had access to weapons?

Clearly, mental health is a major deal. So who do we hold accountable for this Uvalde kid being able to buy 2 ARs? The gun seller? Someone who didn't report him for doing other things? I'm all for it...if you serve a drink to a drunk person who then crashes into a school...the bar would be accountable. How do we do that in the gun/ammo process?

We talk about changes of society...well one thing that has also changed is we don't want ot get involved in other people's business. My neighbor is acting weird...well, I'll just stay on my porch when they are outside and ignore them. Should a teacher report it....we have teacher / spouses here....I bet they would incur a ton more paperwork and loss of personal time if they reported that student x has been drawing violent pictures in class. Do they take that on? Do we hold them accountable if they don't?

---

Do you want to see changes or do you want to sit on a message board and complain about it? I already told you that the shooter in Texas had prior issues that weren't reported or nothing was done that ended up in the system. If it had, he wouldn't have been able to purchase the AR's. Again red flags ignored.

The workplace is no different, whether it's mental health or temporary insanity. It's still a mental issue. Why are we trying to parse these mental issues out.

---

Said as you sit on a message board and complain about it?

I'm not sure what you're arguing about --- I just said if he had known issues, who can we go arrest and hold accountable? I'm all for that. The system makes billions of gun / ammo sales, lets start making those who don't take scrutiny in their sales VERY accountable.

You also asked why aren't we doing things more immediately about mental health, and so I answered you --- because it means people have to get invovled and get their hands dirty....and we don't want to do those things anymore.

---

Which goes back to the breakdown of a sense of community and this a breakdown in society in general. I feel like I'm discussing changes while you keep making excuses.

---

No, we are in complete agreement with each othe there -- we have had a breakdown in community and society, yet we got people like Ted Cruz screaming that we should still trot out the exact same "get em while you can" gun access as we did 250 years ago.

---

My question to you chem would be what do you do about the amount of AR-15s that are currently owned by law abiding citizens with a ban on this weapon?

The banning guns ship sailed a long long time ago. there's too many legal and illegal guns in the US for any ban to be affective at all.

I think bans only draw people more towards illegal ownership of the banned weapon. You'd be creating criminals out of normal every day people.

Why should the gun shop be held accountable? Why should the manufacturer of the gun or the bullets be held accountable? Where did they fail in their responsibilities? Or is this more of the stupid woke posturing that does nothing?

packgrad said:

---

Why should the gun shop be held accountable? Why should the manufacturer of the gun or the bullets be held accountable? Where did they fail in their responsibilities? Or is this more of the stupid woke posturing that does nothing?

---

Exactly! The family failed the kid, then law enforcement failed to act upon incidents they should've.

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

---

LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

---

To Chem's earlier point though Steve, there's no reason to think of mental health and more prudent gun legislation as mutually exclusive.

It's not either/or.

Do we is a culture have worse mental health than other developed nations? Not sure, hard to quantify.

Do we have more than three times as many guns per capita as they do? Yes.

When we have three times the number of firearms owned by citizens in this country as the next-highest major world power, and twice as many as the number two country on the list, it's irrational to think that the sheer number of guns floating around the country isn't a major part of the problem, or that the prospective multifaceted solution will not include some measure of controlling access to firearms for people in our society that shouldn't reasonably have them.

Also, you keep making vague references to people in mental health crisis that want to hurt others being able to do so by different means even if their access to guns is more limited. They can stab people, or make pipe bombs, or run their cars into crowds, or whatever.

It's obviously true that they could potentially find other ways to hurt people, but few of those ways are both as accessible, lethal, and as efficient at killing large numbers of people quickly as guns are.

There is a reason why countries with fewer guns than ours have fewer mass casualty events in schools. People in those countries have the same opportunity to run cars into crowds, stab people, make pipe bombs, etc., yet they don't as frequently and even when they do, those means are not as lethal. You get fewer people hurt and also those that are hurt survive more frequently.

It doesn't pass the smell test that that reason is because those countries just happen to have exponentially better mental health than America.

---

Holy ***** Do you people ever remember what has been posted throughout this thread? Or, do you read one post at a time and then react to it. Please show me where I said they're mutually exclusive.

My post was to point out things that can have a quicker effect than other things that need to be done. A gun ban is not quick. Neither are the mental health things that need to change. But there are things not being done that are already on the books but ignored.

Anybody that kills another person in a mad shooting, stabbing, vehicular death, whatever, and no matter what country they're in, what is the one thing in common with them all? Mental well being!

---

So do we agree that the most effectual prospective solution would have a mental health component and an access to guns component?

---

I have said mental health reform and red flags for people with a criminal history and mental issues. Yes

ETA: I have not said banning guns though.

---

well of course not, you need to be able to defend yourself against all those random knife and car mass-murderers out there that you keep harping on, lol.
I kid, I kid. But the sudden focus on people doing those things is interesting, coming on the heels of 35 people being killed in two incidents in 2 weeks with ARs.
You'd have never made a FG if the posts were moved that much back when you were kicking.

---

So you're only focus is on the 35 instead of thousands?

---

Can't discuss his party's main voting block. You know that.

I posted numerous websites proving what I was saying. Websites from the FBI Crime reports. He disappeared and never responded after the last batch was posted.

Now he uses his race baiting terminology to try and goad me into another useless discussion. He is the biggest racist on the board and that's an undisputed fact.

packgrad said:

---

Why should the gun shop be held accountable? Why should the manufacturer of the gun or the bullets be held accountable? Where did they fail in their responsibilities? Or is this more of the stupid woke posturing that does nothing?

---

When you have a group that has millions of followers that speaks against the traditional nuclear family more than it does gang violence, murders, abuse of women and the complete undoing of Western Society you get what you get.

Now here's the damn proof. Let's see if resident board racist can dispute any of this.

https://nypost.com/2020/09/24/blm-removes-website-language-blasting-nuclear-family-structure/

https://www.heritage.org/marriage-and-family/commentary/black-families-matter

https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/aug/28/ask-politifact-does-black-lives-matter-aim-destroy/

https://fee.org/articles/black-lives-matter-s-goal-to-disrupt-the-nuclear-family-fits-a-marxist-aim-that-goes-back-a-century-and-a-half/

Now.... tell me what I am trying to say with these facts?

You, like many of your ilk, can't stand it when the facts don't fit your narrative do you?

Quote:

---

It's not a sudden interest. It's the next step for those wanting to hurt people if you want ban guns. You think a ban on one weapon stops the intent of sick people?

---

True. The most violent school murder in US history was about 100 years ago using a bomb. 44 kids died that day.

hokiewolf said:

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Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

---

LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

---

To Chem's earlier point though Steve, there's no reason to think of mental health and more prudent gun legislation as mutually exclusive.

It's not either/or.

Do we is a culture have worse mental health than other developed nations? Not sure, hard to quantify.

Do we have more than three times as many guns per capita as they do? Yes.

When we have three times the number of firearms owned by citizens in this country as the next-highest major world power, and twice as many as the number two country on the list, it's irrational to think that the sheer number of guns floating around the country isn't a major part of the problem, or that the prospective multifaceted solution will not include some measure of controlling access to firearms for people in our society that shouldn't reasonably have them.

Also, you keep making vague references to people in mental health crisis that want to hurt others being able to do so by different means even if their access to guns is more limited. They can stab people, or make pipe bombs, or run their cars into crowds, or whatever.

It's obviously true that they could potentially find other ways to hurt people, but few of those ways are both as accessible, lethal, and as efficient at killing large numbers of people quickly as guns are.

There is a reason why countries with fewer guns than ours have fewer mass casualty events in schools. People in those countries have the same opportunity to run cars into crowds, stab people, make pipe bombs, etc., yet they don't as frequently and even when they do, those means are not as lethal. You get fewer people hurt and also those that are hurt survive more frequently.

It doesn't pass the smell test that that reason is because those countries just happen to have exponentially better mental health than America.

---

Holy ***** Do you people ever remember what has been posted throughout this thread? Or, do you read one post at a time and then react to it. Please show me where I said they're mutually exclusive.

My post was to point out things that can have a quicker effect than other things that need to be done. A gun ban is not quick. Neither are the mental health things that need to change. But there are things not being done that are already on the books but ignored.

Anybody that kills another person in a mad shooting, stabbing, vehicular death, whatever, and no matter what country they're in, what is the one thing in common with them all? Mental well being!

---

Are we sure though? Or are sometimes just angry. The FBI study I posted earlier -- many of those wre are the workplace. Were those people showing signs of being mentally unwell, or were they just really angry at not getting a promotion, and had access to weapons?

Clearly, mental health is a major deal. So who do we hold accountable for this Uvalde kid being able to buy 2 ARs? The gun seller? Someone who didn't report him for doing other things? I'm all for it...if you serve a drink to a drunk person who then crashes into a school...the bar would be accountable. How do we do that in the gun/ammo process?

We talk about changes of society...well one thing that has also changed is we don't want ot get involved in other people's business. My neighbor is acting weird...well, I'll just stay on my porch when they are outside and ignore them. Should a teacher report it....we have teacher / spouses here....I bet they would incur a ton more paperwork and loss of personal time if they reported that student x has been drawing violent pictures in class. Do they take that on? Do we hold them accountable if they don't?

---

Do you want to see changes or do you want to sit on a message board and complain about it? I already told you that the shooter in Texas had prior issues that weren't reported or nothing was done that ended up in the system. If it had, he wouldn't have been able to purchase the AR's. Again red flags ignored.

The workplace is no different, whether it's mental health or temporary insanity. It's still a mental issue. Why are we trying to parse these mental issues out.

---

Said as you sit on a message board and complain about it?

I'm not sure what you're arguing about --- I just said if he had known issues, who can we go arrest and hold accountable? I'm all for that. The system makes billions of gun / ammo sales, lets start making those who don't take scrutiny in their sales VERY accountable.

You also asked why aren't we doing things more immediately about mental health, and so I answered you --- because it means people have to get invovled and get their hands dirty....and we don't want to do those things anymore.

---

Which goes back to the breakdown of a sense of community and this a breakdown in society in general. I feel like I'm discussing changes while you keep making excuses.

---

No, we are in complete agreement with each othe there -- we have had a breakdown in community and society, yet we got people like Ted Cruz screaming that we should still trot out the exact same "get em while you can" gun access as we did 250 years ago.

---

My question to you chem would be what do you do about the amount of AR-15s that are currently owned by law abiding citizens with a ban on this weapon?

The banning guns ship sailed a long long time ago. there's too many legal and illegal guns in the US for any ban to be affective at all.

I think bans only draw people more towards illegal ownership of the banned weapon. You'd be creating criminals out of normal every day people.

---

Could be. How did that work in Canada? Or in Scotland?

packgrad said:

---

Why should the gun shop be held accountable? Why should the manufacturer of the gun or the bullets be held accountable? Where did they fail in their responsibilities? Or is this more of the stupid woke posturing that does nothing?

---

Caveat - if they did all the steps they were supposed to do, I'd agree. But I keep reading "we have laws on the books"....yet people keep lawfully getting these weapons.

BBW12OG said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

---

LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

---

To Chem's earlier point though Steve, there's no reason to think of mental health and more prudent gun legislation as mutually exclusive.

It's not either/or.

Do we is a culture have worse mental health than other developed nations? Not sure, hard to quantify.

Do we have more than three times as many guns per capita as they do? Yes.

When we have three times the number of firearms owned by citizens in this country as the next-highest major world power, and twice as many as the number two country on the list, it's irrational to think that the sheer number of guns floating around the country isn't a major part of the problem, or that the prospective multifaceted solution will not include some measure of controlling access to firearms for people in our society that shouldn't reasonably have them.

Also, you keep making vague references to people in mental health crisis that want to hurt others being able to do so by different means even if their access to guns is more limited. They can stab people, or make pipe bombs, or run their cars into crowds, or whatever.

It's obviously true that they could potentially find other ways to hurt people, but few of those ways are both as accessible, lethal, and as efficient at killing large numbers of people quickly as guns are.

There is a reason why countries with fewer guns than ours have fewer mass casualty events in schools. People in those countries have the same opportunity to run cars into crowds, stab people, make pipe bombs, etc., yet they don't as frequently and even when they do, those means are not as lethal. You get fewer people hurt and also those that are hurt survive more frequently.

It doesn't pass the smell test that that reason is because those countries just happen to have exponentially better mental health than America.

---

Holy ***** Do you people ever remember what has been posted throughout this thread? Or, do you read one post at a time and then react to it. Please show me where I said they're mutually exclusive.

My post was to point out things that can have a quicker effect than other things that need to be done. A gun ban is not quick. Neither are the mental health things that need to change. But there are things not being done that are already on the books but ignored.

Anybody that kills another person in a mad shooting, stabbing, vehicular death, whatever, and no matter what country they're in, what is the one thing in common with them all? Mental well being!

---

So do we agree that the most effectual prospective solution would have a mental health component and an access to guns component?

---

I have said mental health reform and red flags for people with a criminal history and mental issues. Yes

ETA: I have not said banning guns though.

---

well of course not, you need to be able to defend yourself against all those random knife and car mass-murderers out there that you keep harping on, lol.
I kid, I kid. But the sudden focus on people doing those things is interesting, coming on the heels of 35 people being killed in two incidents in 2 weeks with ARs.
You'd have never made a FG if the posts were moved that much back when you were kicking.

---

So you're only focus is on the 35 instead of thousands?

---

Can't discuss his party's main voting block. You know that.

I posted numerous websites proving what I was saying. Websites from the FBI Crime reports. He disappeared and never responded after the last batch was posted.

Now he uses his race baiting terminology to try and goad me into another useless discussion. He is the biggest racist on the board and that's an undisputed fact.

---

LOL...said the guy who jumps into a discussion on ARs and killings in Uvalde and Buffalo to bring up inner city murders and then talks about unique demographics in the US. Come on BBW, man up and say what you really are itching to say.....you've danced all around it, made it abundantly clear who you are talking about, so just do it.

Steve Videtich said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Why should the gun shop be held accountable? Why should the manufacturer of the gun or the bullets be held accountable? Where did they fail in their responsibilities? Or is this more of the stupid woke posturing that does nothing?

---

Exactly! The family failed the kid, then law enforcement failed to act upon incidents they should've.

---

Given the # of changes in the story over the past week, I'd think we should probably allow the experts to review and tell us exactly what was missing in this story.
Did the police file something and it stopped in the system?
Did teachers?
Did everyone ignore or did it get caught up in a system. Or did the people at the end of the line who are supposed to stop a sale just not get the message?


Same with the guy from Buffalo, who fortunately for him, has been long forgotten already. But what were his signs? Who knew? How did he still get weapons?

Packchem91 said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

I have a question for all the people who want to ban ban ban. Say you get rid of AR 15's and whatever it is you want to stop the sale of. What do we do about the all of these people that are mentally weak and unstable, particularly the young, that still have hate and anger and want to hurt a bunch of people?

---

LOL, you keep acting like people are arguing that mental health is not an issue. Its been clearly stated, multiple times, that it is.

Personally, any solution that doesn't factor in both access to particular weapons / ammo AND mental health, is going to be an overall failure.

BTW, this is a fascinating report by the FBI on the "active shooter" killins in 2021.
Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2021 FBI

It gets away from all the gang violence some here are wanting to focus on, and instead focuses on the defined types of shootings like we just saw in Buffalo and Uvalde.

While there are teens, there are a whole bunch in the 25-54 year old range. So clearly it goes beyond video games, school bullying, etc that needs to be addressed.
Looks like a lot were business related -- someone unhappy at work, type stuff.

---

I haven't said that at all. Don't infer my thoughts. My point is, individuals like yourself want the ban first and that's what's screamed the loudest. If you ban the guns, do you think they'll stop wanting to hurt people?

The reality is that they'll probably find another way to do it. Do they get a bag of hand guns? Do they use pipe bombs? Do they use vehicles, like we saw in Waukesha? Do we ban these things? Do we make these things harder to get their hands on as well? Where did it stop?

I have said multiple times that I'm for making guns difficult for these folks to get. There have been red flags after red flags of every incident that we've seen. And there all related to mental instability. As well, experts have said that there are so many AR's out there, it would take years for a ban to take effect.

So, why can't we focus on the issues that we can? Arrest and prosecute for crimes committed, even at the youth levels. Yes, there are obstacles to mental health help right now. But, stop ignoring the signs on people around us. Push for people to get help.

They're are so many thing that can be done now, but we're ignoring as a society.

---

To Chem's earlier point though Steve, there's no reason to think of mental health and more prudent gun legislation as mutually exclusive.

It's not either/or.

Do we is a culture have worse mental health than other developed nations? Not sure, hard to quantify.

Do we have more than three times as many guns per capita as they do? Yes.

When we have three times the number of firearms owned by citizens in this country as the next-highest major world power, and twice as many as the number two country on the list, it's irrational to think that the sheer number of guns floating around the country isn't a major part of the problem, or that the prospective multifaceted solution will not include some measure of controlling access to firearms for people in our society that shouldn't reasonably have them.

Also, you keep making vague references to people in mental health crisis that want to hurt others being able to do so by different means even if their access to guns is more limited. They can stab people, or make pipe bombs, or run their cars into crowds, or whatever.

It's obviously true that they could potentially find other ways to hurt people, but few of those ways are both as accessible, lethal, and as efficient at killing large numbers of people quickly as guns are.

There is a reason why countries with fewer guns than ours have fewer mass casualty events in schools. People in those countries have the same opportunity to run cars into crowds, stab people, make pipe bombs, etc., yet they don't as frequently and even when they do, those means are not as lethal. You get fewer people hurt and also those that are hurt survive more frequently.

It doesn't pass the smell test that that reason is because those countries just happen to have exponentially better mental health than America.

---

Holy ***** Do you people ever remember what has been posted throughout this thread? Or, do you read one post at a time and then react to it. Please show me where I said they're mutually exclusive.

My post was to point out things that can have a quicker effect than other things that need to be done. A gun ban is not quick. Neither are the mental health things that need to change. But there are things not being done that are already on the books but ignored.

Anybody that kills another person in a mad shooting, stabbing, vehicular death, whatever, and no matter what country they're in, what is the one thing in common with them all? Mental well being!

---

Are we sure though? Or are sometimes just angry. The FBI study I posted earlier -- many of those wre are the workplace. Were those people showing signs of being mentally unwell, or were they just really angry at not getting a promotion, and had access to weapons?

Clearly, mental health is a major deal. So who do we hold accountable for this Uvalde kid being able to buy 2 ARs? The gun seller? Someone who didn't report him for doing other things? I'm all for it...if you serve a drink to a drunk person who then crashes into a school...the bar would be accountable. How do we do that in the gun/ammo process?

We talk about changes of society...well one thing that has also changed is we don't want ot get involved in other people's business. My neighbor is acting weird...well, I'll just stay on my porch when they are outside and ignore them. Should a teacher report it....we have teacher / spouses here....I bet they would incur a ton more paperwork and loss of personal time if they reported that student x has been drawing violent pictures in class. Do they take that on? Do we hold them accountable if they don't?

---

Do you want to see changes or do you want to sit on a message board and complain about it? I already told you that the shooter in Texas had prior issues that weren't reported or nothing was done that ended up in the system. If it had, he wouldn't have been able to purchase the AR's. Again red flags ignored.

The workplace is no different, whether it's mental health or temporary insanity. It's still a mental issue. Why are we trying to parse these mental issues out.

---

Said as you sit on a message board and complain about it?

I'm not sure what you're arguing about --- I just said if he had known issues, who can we go arrest and hold accountable? I'm all for that. The system makes billions of gun / ammo sales, lets start making those who don't take scrutiny in their sales VERY accountable.

You also asked why aren't we doing things more immediately about mental health, and so I answered you --- because it means people have to get invovled and get their hands dirty....and we don't want to do those things anymore.

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Which goes back to the breakdown of a sense of community and this a breakdown in society in general. I feel like I'm discussing changes while you keep making excuses.

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No, we are in complete agreement with each othe there -- we have had a breakdown in community and society, yet we got people like Ted Cruz screaming that we should still trot out the exact same "get em while you can" gun access as we did 250 years ago.

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My question to you chem would be what do you do about the amount of AR-15s that are currently owned by law abiding citizens with a ban on this weapon?

The banning guns ship sailed a long long time ago. there's too many legal and illegal guns in the US for any ban to be affective at all.

I think bans only draw people more towards illegal ownership of the banned weapon. You'd be creating criminals out of normal every day people.

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Could be. How did that work in Canada? Or in Scotland?

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They don't have a 2nd Amendment protection. To me you can't look at what another country did and apply it to the US.

Packchem91 said:

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Steve Videtich said:

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packgrad said:

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Why should the gun shop be held accountable? Why should the manufacturer of the gun or the bullets be held accountable? Where did they fail in their responsibilities? Or is this more of the stupid woke posturing that does nothing?

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Exactly! The family failed the kid, then law enforcement failed to act upon incidents they should've.

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Given the # of changes in the story over the past week, I'd think we should probably allow the experts to review and tell us exactly what was missing in this story.
Did the police file something and it stopped in the system?
Did teachers?
Did everyone ignore or did it get caught up in a system. Or did the people at the end of the line who are supposed to stop a sale just not get the message?


Same with the guy from Buffalo, who fortunately for him, has been long forgotten already. But what were his signs? Who knew? How did he still get weapons?

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The guy in Buffalo was actually detained and interviewed by professional counselors. They let him go after 2 days and nothing got put in the database to block his access to firearms.

BTW, the Feds currently do nothing when they discover a weapon was erroneously sold to an ineligible person.
Straw buyers, or whatever they call the substitute buyers, are never prosecuted either.