Wufpack17 said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Packchem91 said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Packchem91 said:

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jkpackfan said:

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Wufpack17 said:

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I'm going to apologize to everyone. I'm only interested in honest conversation, and exchanging with PackChem clearly isn't an honest conversation because he isn't interested in that and it derailed the thread.

---

Yeah you're wasting your time, better to put on ignore.

---

Lol. the guys who talk about "participation trophies ruining America" need a safe space from someone presenting actual facts and challenging the absurdity of the "it's not the guns" narrative

---

Lets say for a moment that it is the guns. You've made the case that other countries do not have the same issues as the US. Fine, let's use two of your favorite examples - UK and Australia.

You would seem to be ok with either removing the 2nd amendment or severely limiting it. But that doesn't get you to UK and Australia. You also need to be prepared for severely limiting or eliminating the 4th and 5th amendments as well. You would also need to ignore most of the 1st amendment as well to get to the countries that "don't have an issue with guns" level.

There are over 500 million guns in this country. You ok with trading the odds of being a victim of school shootings that is similar to the odds of being struck by lightening vs the amount of death that will happen with a gun confiscation program?

I think in reality, like most on your side of the argument is you like the idea of more gun laws, but that the unintended consequences of enacting these laws will then lean (as BBW has correctly pointed out) to a disproportionate amount of incarceration of people of color.

You in fact, now see that the EXISTING laws on the books on gun control are being ignored for this very purpose. You can look at New York City for example. Some of the strictest gun laws in the country yet you have prosecutors excusing gun crimes for the purpose of equity.

There are robust straw man purchase laws that are not followed in prosecutions in Chicago again because of equity.

So a great start would be just to enforce the laws that are already on the books. But there seems to be no stomach for doing such things on the progressive end of the political spectrum.

Finally, this BS that if you're 2nd Amendment you're then "Pro mass shooting" is a ludicrous argument to make and doesn't sit in reality.

---

Let's be clear - it is the guns. Sure, you have to have someone who will pull the trigger

I get it. We'll never get back the weapons out there (though I'd like the policies like in FL where if you break a law, a judge can order them confiscated). Should be extended, if not, to mental stability as well

You discuss the unintended consequences of trying to curb guns. I mean, sure. But Don't we have some pretty severe unintended consequences now?

Here is my issue - there is no one size fits all answer. But when I look at stats and see we have 10x the # of gun killings than any other 1st world country, i gues i see that as "something is broken"
Even factoring out the gang violence (we act as if other countries don't have gangs) - just look at school shootings, we are overwhelmingly the leader in that too

You say enforce the laws - great, but let's not blame one party for that. It's not happening in most red or blue states. Tennessee is a red state but this person has no issue getting guns.

---

What law did this person break before committing a crime? You continue to bang on this issue of the number of gun killings is 10x any other country, you're ignoring the simple fact that gun laws on the books are not being prosecuted in the name of equity. The cure for one issue is poison for the other.

---

Let's be real about the gun stats in this country. They are heavily tied to suicide and crime (gangs for example). People shooting others out of randomness is quite rare.

I wonder if PackChem cares to confiscate guns from the inner cities? What could possibly go wrong?

As many people have been killed by random street violence in 2023 than have been killed in mass shootings. There isn't a gun problem, there is a violence problem, of which most of these acts are done by mentally I'll people.

---

Packchem91 said:

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Wufpack17 said:

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If it were "the guns!!!", then explain why 99.9% of gun owners haven't committed a gun crime?

The issue is people who willingly choose to kill others. This isn't rocket science, this doesn't require mental gymnastics.

You will have to explain to me why we better protect our arenas and concert venues than we do our schools. Hell, you can't get into my office without a key fob! But you can walk right into my kids school. That's a problem.

---

I'll ask you the reverse, if its "not the guns", why is this a uniquely American issue (well, and Central American one too)?

Are we meaner? More urban crowded? The only ones who have access to SM or gory movies? Only one with bad leaders? More mentally unstable?
Or, just a lot more likely to have a gun in hand?

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

If it were "the guns!!!", then explain why 99.9% of gun owners haven't committed a gun crime?

The issue is people who willingly choose to kill others. This isn't rocket science, this doesn't require mental gymnastics.

You will have to explain to me why we better protect our arenas and concert venues than we do our schools. Hell, you can't get into my office without a key fob! But you can walk right into my kids school. That's a problem.

---

I'll ask you the reverse, if its "not the guns", why is this a uniquely American issue (well, and Central American one too)?

Are we meaner? More urban crowded? The only ones who have access to SM or gory movies? Only one with bad leaders? More mentally unstable?
Or, just a lot more likely to have a gun in hand?

---

What does the US and Central America have in common? Certainly you are intelligent enough to figure that one out…

The data has been provided to you. Mental health is far worse in the US than any other developed country. We have an out of control border that floods us with guns, drugs, and organized crime. These things rival Central American countries (per data provided to you). The only difference is that the US allows for people to own guns, otherwise I can only imagine how much more similar we'd be to some of the 3rd world Central American countries with regards to death toll.

---

Packchem91 said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Also Chem, How would have enacting a red flag law type confiscation of guns been seen in this situation. The parents of the shooter have said that they had no business having those guns. What would have been the response in the media if the very Christian parents of a transgender child called the police and red flagged them and had their guns confiscated?

Note: I tried to use the correct pronouns so as not to trigger anyone.

---

LOL, I've not been sure what to call "her"? I'm not even sure was it a girl trying to be a boy or a boy trying to be a girl?

Anyway, why are you worried about the media if that happened? That is EXACTLY what should happen. Thats why i asked 17 the question yesterday -- are you willing to accept allowing some agency to dig deep into your and family medical history? And can't just be one time -- lets make it an annual renewal, where you have to be evaluated (like renewing your drivers license) to make sure you haven't gone off the deep end.

I listened to a video chat series a guy in my former church put together last night where he interviewed his parents (members of the church) talking about his own issues with depression and how it nearly ruined his life and by extension, that of his parents and sister. He's finally coming out on the other side. But what was overwhelming, was the # of other stories on his site that i can see also involve church members. People you thought were "completely normal", but had something "bad" going on in their lives like this. You just don't know on the surface, which is why we always here "well he seemed completley normal", right before he shot up the office.

So yeah, lets stop worrying about who we offend and get serious about it. Because I agree with what many of you say -- its not the 99% rule here. Its the 1% rule, and a little bit of digging deeper would often find that out and perhaps prevent these incidents. And really, like we say with voter ID laws, if you are law-abiding, why would you be worried about proving your who you are (in this case, not having scary mental issues).

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Wufpack17 said:

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Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

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hokiewolf said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

jkpackfan said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

I'm going to apologize to everyone. I'm only interested in honest conversation, and exchanging with PackChem clearly isn't an honest conversation because he isn't interested in that and it derailed the thread.

---

Yeah you're wasting your time, better to put on ignore.

---

Lol. the guys who talk about "participation trophies ruining America" need a safe space from someone presenting actual facts and challenging the absurdity of the "it's not the guns" narrative

---

Lets say for a moment that it is the guns. You've made the case that other countries do not have the same issues as the US. Fine, let's use two of your favorite examples - UK and Australia.

You would seem to be ok with either removing the 2nd amendment or severely limiting it. But that doesn't get you to UK and Australia. You also need to be prepared for severely limiting or eliminating the 4th and 5th amendments as well. You would also need to ignore most of the 1st amendment as well to get to the countries that "don't have an issue with guns" level.

There are over 500 million guns in this country. You ok with trading the odds of being a victim of school shootings that is similar to the odds of being struck by lightening vs the amount of death that will happen with a gun confiscation program?

I think in reality, like most on your side of the argument is you like the idea of more gun laws, but that the unintended consequences of enacting these laws will then lean (as BBW has correctly pointed out) to a disproportionate amount of incarceration of people of color.

You in fact, now see that the EXISTING laws on the books on gun control are being ignored for this very purpose. You can look at New York City for example. Some of the strictest gun laws in the country yet you have prosecutors excusing gun crimes for the purpose of equity.

There are robust straw man purchase laws that are not followed in prosecutions in Chicago again because of equity.

So a great start would be just to enforce the laws that are already on the books. But there seems to be no stomach for doing such things on the progressive end of the political spectrum.

Finally, this BS that if you're 2nd Amendment you're then "Pro mass shooting" is a ludicrous argument to make and doesn't sit in reality.

---

Let's be clear - it is the guns. Sure, you have to have someone who will pull the trigger

I get it. We'll never get back the weapons out there (though I'd like the policies like in FL where if you break a law, a judge can order them confiscated). Should be extended, if not, to mental stability as well

You discuss the unintended consequences of trying to curb guns. I mean, sure. But Don't we have some pretty severe unintended consequences now?

Here is my issue - there is no one size fits all answer. But when I look at stats and see we have 10x the # of gun killings than any other 1st world country, i gues i see that as "something is broken"
Even factoring out the gang violence (we act as if other countries don't have gangs) - just look at school shootings, we are overwhelmingly the leader in that too

You say enforce the laws - great, but let's not blame one party for that. It's not happening in most red or blue states. Tennessee is a red state but this person has no issue getting guns.

---

What law did this person break before committing a crime? You continue to bang on this issue of the number of gun killings is 10x any other country, you're ignoring the simple fact that gun laws on the books are not being prosecuted in the name of equity. The cure for one issue is poison for the other.

---

Let's be real about the gun stats in this country. They are heavily tied to suicide and crime (gangs for example). People shooting others out of randomness is quite rare.

I wonder if PackChem cares to confiscate guns from the inner cities? What could possibly go wrong?

As many people have been killed by random street violence in 2023 than have been killed in mass shootings. There isn't a gun problem, there is a violence problem, of which most of these acts are done by mentally I'll people.

---

Sure -- give them all lead pipes like back in the days of "The Outsiders" and see how many of them kill each other with those. Based on your "statistics", I'd supsect the numbers to jump significantly.

---

If I'm being honest, I don't care if people in gangs decide to off each other. That's the bed they made. And you don't care either.

There's a reason I avoid SE Raleigh. That's where most of the gangs are and where most of the violence is. It's the culture. Not the guns.

---

hokiewolf said:

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Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

If it were "the guns!!!", then explain why 99.9% of gun owners haven't committed a gun crime?

The issue is people who willingly choose to kill others. This isn't rocket science, this doesn't require mental gymnastics.

You will have to explain to me why we better protect our arenas and concert venues than we do our schools. Hell, you can't get into my office without a key fob! But you can walk right into my kids school. That's a problem.

---

I'll ask you the reverse, if its "not the guns", why is this a uniquely American issue (well, and Central American one too)?

Are we meaner? More urban crowded? The only ones who have access to SM or gory movies? Only one with bad leaders? More mentally unstable?
Or, just a lot more likely to have a gun in hand?

---

What does the US and Central America have in common? Certainly you are intelligent enough to figure that one out…

The data has been provided to you. Mental health is far worse in the US than any other developed country. We have an out of control border that floods us with guns, drugs, and organized crime. These things rival Central American countries (per data provided to you). The only difference is that the US allows for people to own guns, otherwise I can only imagine how much more similar we'd be to some of the 3rd world Central American countries with regards to death toll.

---

Where is this evidence of mental health in the US far worse than other developed countries? But lets assume it is, we then allow those people to gain access to weapons legally. Does that not sound like an issue to you?

Again, lets make those laws tough. You want a gun, fine, lets do a medical/mental health exam, lets have access to your SM activities, lets visit those of others in your house who would have access to the weapon, and then lets renew that on some regular schedule in case you are slipping?

---

I believe the majority of your proposals are not only unconstitutional, but will also not solve the issue. You seem to not understand that the law abiding gun owners are not the issue.

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Wufpack17 said:

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Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

If it were "the guns!!!", then explain why 99.9% of gun owners haven't committed a gun crime?

The issue is people who willingly choose to kill others. This isn't rocket science, this doesn't require mental gymnastics.

You will have to explain to me why we better protect our arenas and concert venues than we do our schools. Hell, you can't get into my office without a key fob! But you can walk right into my kids school. That's a problem.

---

I'll ask you the reverse, if its "not the guns", why is this a uniquely American issue (well, and Central American one too)?

Are we meaner? More urban crowded? The only ones who have access to SM or gory movies? Only one with bad leaders? More mentally unstable?
Or, just a lot more likely to have a gun in hand?

---

What does the US and Central America have in common? Certainly you are intelligent enough to figure that one out…

The data has been provided to you. Mental health is far worse in the US than any other developed country. We have an out of control border that floods us with guns, drugs, and organized crime. These things rival Central American countries (per data provided to you). The only difference is that the US allows for people to own guns, otherwise I can only imagine how much more similar we'd be to some of the 3rd world Central American countries with regards to death toll.

---

Where is this evidence of mental health in the US far worse than other developed countries? But lets assume it is, we then allow those people to gain access to weapons legally. Does that not sound like an issue to you?

Again, lets make those laws tough. You want a gun, fine, lets do a medical/mental health exam, lets have access to your SM activities, lets visit those of others in your house who would have access to the weapon, and then lets renew that on some regular schedule in case you are slipping?

---

You were given the information yesterday evening…

not everyone seeks mental health treatment because you can't legally force anyone to do so.

I find this idea of my personal safety being left in the hands of a liberal Therapist, incredibly stupid and I won't ever allow the government into my home. You seem to be ignoring the constitution here. What you are suggesting results in the loss of numerous rights and liberties.

And once again you ignore the elephant in the room, what you are suggesting only applies to people who follow the laws.

---

packgrad said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

If it were "the guns!!!", then explain why 99.9% of gun owners haven't committed a gun crime?

The issue is people who willingly choose to kill others. This isn't rocket science, this doesn't require mental gymnastics.

You will have to explain to me why we better protect our arenas and concert venues than we do our schools. Hell, you can't get into my office without a key fob! But you can walk right into my kids school. That's a problem.

---

I'll ask you the reverse, if its "not the guns", why is this a uniquely American issue (well, and Central American one too)?

Are we meaner? More urban crowded? The only ones who have access to SM or gory movies? Only one with bad leaders? More mentally unstable?
Or, just a lot more likely to have a gun in hand?

---

What does the US and Central America have in common? Certainly you are intelligent enough to figure that one out…

The data has been provided to you. Mental health is far worse in the US than any other developed country. We have an out of control border that floods us with guns, drugs, and organized crime. These things rival Central American countries (per data provided to you). The only difference is that the US allows for people to own guns, otherwise I can only imagine how much more similar we'd be to some of the 3rd world Central American countries with regards to death toll.

---

Where is this evidence of mental health in the US far worse than other developed countries? But lets assume it is, we then allow those people to gain access to weapons legally. Does that not sound like an issue to you?

Again, lets make those laws tough. You want a gun, fine, lets do a medical/mental health exam, lets have access to your SM activities, lets visit those of others in your house who would have access to the weapon, and then lets renew that on some regular schedule in case you are slipping?

---

You were given the information yesterday evening…

not everyone seeks mental health treatment because you can't legally force anyone to do so.

I find this idea of my personal safety being left in the hands of a liberal Therapist, incredibly stupid and I won't ever allow the government into my home. You seem to be ignoring the constitution here. What you are suggesting results in the loss of numerous rights and liberties.

And once again you ignore the elephant in the room, what you are suggesting only applies to people who follow the laws.

---

If you suggest illogical, unconstitutional methods, it just sets up the "so what do we tell our children?" virtue signaling grandstanding bull**** when people say no. A continuous circle. He is not a serious poster. He is simply looking to take jabs and get attention. The mental health annual review is probably the dumbest idea I've seen suggested, especially right after coming out of the covid nonsense. Attention *****s can't read a room.

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

jkpackfan said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

I'm going to apologize to everyone. I'm only interested in honest conversation, and exchanging with PackChem clearly isn't an honest conversation because he isn't interested in that and it derailed the thread.

---

Yeah you're wasting your time, better to put on ignore.

---

Lol. the guys who talk about "participation trophies ruining America" need a safe space from someone presenting actual facts and challenging the absurdity of the "it's not the guns" narrative

---

Lets say for a moment that it is the guns. You've made the case that other countries do not have the same issues as the US. Fine, let's use two of your favorite examples - UK and Australia.

You would seem to be ok with either removing the 2nd amendment or severely limiting it. But that doesn't get you to UK and Australia. You also need to be prepared for severely limiting or eliminating the 4th and 5th amendments as well. You would also need to ignore most of the 1st amendment as well to get to the countries that "don't have an issue with guns" level.

There are over 500 million guns in this country. You ok with trading the odds of being a victim of school shootings that is similar to the odds of being struck by lightening vs the amount of death that will happen with a gun confiscation program?

I think in reality, like most on your side of the argument is you like the idea of more gun laws, but that the unintended consequences of enacting these laws will then lean (as BBW has correctly pointed out) to a disproportionate amount of incarceration of people of color.

You in fact, now see that the EXISTING laws on the books on gun control are being ignored for this very purpose. You can look at New York City for example. Some of the strictest gun laws in the country yet you have prosecutors excusing gun crimes for the purpose of equity.

There are robust straw man purchase laws that are not followed in prosecutions in Chicago again because of equity.

So a great start would be just to enforce the laws that are already on the books. But there seems to be no stomach for doing such things on the progressive end of the political spectrum.

Finally, this BS that if you're 2nd Amendment you're then "Pro mass shooting" is a ludicrous argument to make and doesn't sit in reality.

---

BBW12OG said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

If it were "the guns!!!", then explain why 99.9% of gun owners haven't committed a gun crime?

The issue is people who willingly choose to kill others. This isn't rocket science, this doesn't require mental gymnastics.

You will have to explain to me why we better protect our arenas and concert venues than we do our schools. Hell, you can't get into my office without a key fob! But you can walk right into my kids school. That's a problem.

---

I'll ask you the reverse, if its "not the guns", why is this a uniquely American issue (well, and Central American one too)?

Are we meaner? More urban crowded? The only ones who have access to SM or gory movies? Only one with bad leaders? More mentally unstable?
Or, just a lot more likely to have a gun in hand?

---

What does the US and Central America have in common? Certainly you are intelligent enough to figure that one out…

The data has been provided to you. Mental health is far worse in the US than any other developed country. We have an out of control border that floods us with guns, drugs, and organized crime. These things rival Central American countries (per data provided to you). The only difference is that the US allows for people to own guns, otherwise I can only imagine how much more similar we'd be to some of the 3rd world Central American countries with regards to death toll.

---

Where is this evidence of mental health in the US far worse than other developed countries? But lets assume it is, we then allow those people to gain access to weapons legally. Does that not sound like an issue to you?

Again, lets make those laws tough. You want a gun, fine, lets do a medical/mental health exam, lets have access to your SM activities, lets visit those of others in your house who would have access to the weapon, and then lets renew that on some regular schedule in case you are slipping?

---

You were given the information yesterday evening…

not everyone seeks mental health treatment because you can't legally force anyone to do so.

I find this idea of my personal safety being left in the hands of a liberal Therapist, incredibly stupid and I won't ever allow the government into my home. You seem to be ignoring the constitution here. What you are suggesting results in the loss of numerous rights and liberties.

And once again you ignore the elephant in the room, what you are suggesting only applies to people who follow the laws.

---

right -- so we all want people who are mentally unstable from having guns, but we don't really want to do the dirty work to make sure that happens.

And you are ignoring the other elephant in the room -- people who followed the laws just killed about 30 people in schools in just the 2 most discussed incidents (which woudl be Uvalde, forever, and whatever the most recent one is, which in this case is Nashville).

---

I can't predict that you won't drink 8 beers tonight and then decide to drive a vehicle, so, let's just revoke your license. Sound good to you?

---

I have two kids... one got in trouble at school so I punished his sister along with him because she "might" do the same thing one day....

Lefty logic....

Again... Comrade Chem has been told numerous times the facts. I've posted government linked websites with the information on crime and gun statistics. He, along with his comrades, fail to acknowledge them.

Also, if I recall, Dear Leader had a 60 person majority in the Senate from 2008-10. He also had the House of Representatives. Why didn't they do anything about "assault weapons" then?

Because they don't ****ing want to. Take the gun argument away from them what do they have left? Men can be pregnant and women can have testicles.....

That's who they are.

---

caryking said:

---

Isn't it amazing that sane people continue to debate with the insane... Transgenderism isn't sane. Remember when we used to call Men dressing as women, drag queens? It took a person that has a few screws loose to do that, back in the 70's. Now, we have mainstreamed it and some want to make it a protected class.

No wonder we have so many mass shootings. The acceptance, in culture, has more likely created this mess, than anything else, and some want to look for a boogie man. If you want to fix the problem, get to the root of the problem. This country has gone MAD!!!


BTW, any gun legislation should be met with a constitutional challenge. If you want to put any restrictions on gun ownership and bullets, you need 2/3 of the house and 3/4 of the states. Guns and bullets are 100% individual rights that the constitution recognizes. The constitution did "NOT" give the people this right; rather, the people recognized this individual right and said:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

So, Chem, quit talking about this diatribe. Start a commission to repeal and replace the 2nd amendment, if you feel compelled. Other than that, I want any law that precludes the free flow of commerce for the purchase of firearms overturned.

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

If it were "the guns!!!", then explain why 99.9% of gun owners haven't committed a gun crime?

The issue is people who willingly choose to kill others. This isn't rocket science, this doesn't require mental gymnastics.

You will have to explain to me why we better protect our arenas and concert venues than we do our schools. Hell, you can't get into my office without a key fob! But you can walk right into my kids school. That's a problem.

---

I'll ask you the reverse, if its "not the guns", why is this a uniquely American issue (well, and Central American one too)?

Are we meaner? More urban crowded? The only ones who have access to SM or gory movies? Only one with bad leaders? More mentally unstable?
Or, just a lot more likely to have a gun in hand?

---

What does the US and Central America have in common? Certainly you are intelligent enough to figure that one out…

The data has been provided to you. Mental health is far worse in the US than any other developed country. We have an out of control border that floods us with guns, drugs, and organized crime. These things rival Central American countries (per data provided to you). The only difference is that the US allows for people to own guns, otherwise I can only imagine how much more similar we'd be to some of the 3rd world Central American countries with regards to death toll.

---

Where is this evidence of mental health in the US far worse than other developed countries? But lets assume it is, we then allow those people to gain access to weapons legally. Does that not sound like an issue to you?

Again, lets make those laws tough. You want a gun, fine, lets do a medical/mental health exam, lets have access to your SM activities, lets visit those of others in your house who would have access to the weapon, and then lets renew that on some regular schedule in case you are slipping?

---

You were given the information yesterday evening…

not everyone seeks mental health treatment because you can't legally force anyone to do so.

I find this idea of my personal safety being left in the hands of a liberal Therapist, incredibly stupid and I won't ever allow the government into my home. You seem to be ignoring the constitution here. What you are suggesting results in the loss of numerous rights and liberties.

And once again you ignore the elephant in the room, what you are suggesting only applies to people who follow the laws.

---

right -- so we all want people who are mentally unstable from having guns, but we don't really want to do the dirty work to make sure that happens.

And you are ignoring the other elephant in the room -- people who followed the laws just killed about 30 people in schools in just the 2 most discussed incidents (which woudl be Uvalde, forever, and whatever the most recent one is, which in this case is Nashville).

---

I can't predict that you won't drink 8 beers tonight and then decide to drive a vehicle, so, let's just revoke your license. Sound good to you?

---

Packchem91 said:

---

caryking said:

---

Isn't it amazing that sane people continue to debate with the insane... Transgenderism isn't sane. Remember when we used to call Men dressing as women, drag queens? It took a person that has a few screws loose to do that, back in the 70's. Now, we have mainstreamed it and some want to make it a protected class.

No wonder we have so many mass shootings. The acceptance, in culture, has more likely created this mess, than anything else, and some want to look for a boogie man. If you want to fix the problem, get to the root of the problem. This country has gone MAD!!!


BTW, any gun legislation should be met with a constitutional challenge. If you want to put any restrictions on gun ownership and bullets, you need 2/3 of the house and 3/4 of the states. Guns and bullets are 100% individual rights that the constitution recognizes. The constitution did "NOT" give the people this right; rather, the people recognized this individual right and said:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

So, Chem, quit talking about this diatribe. Start a commission to repeal and replace the 2nd amendment, if you feel compelled. Other than that, I want any law that precludes the free flow of commerce for the purchase of firearms overturned.

---

Got it. So again, what are you going to do to limit people who should not have guns from having them

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Packchem91 said:

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Wufpack17 said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

If it were "the guns!!!", then explain why 99.9% of gun owners haven't committed a gun crime?

The issue is people who willingly choose to kill others. This isn't rocket science, this doesn't require mental gymnastics.

You will have to explain to me why we better protect our arenas and concert venues than we do our schools. Hell, you can't get into my office without a key fob! But you can walk right into my kids school. That's a problem.

---

I'll ask you the reverse, if its "not the guns", why is this a uniquely American issue (well, and Central American one too)?

Are we meaner? More urban crowded? The only ones who have access to SM or gory movies? Only one with bad leaders? More mentally unstable?
Or, just a lot more likely to have a gun in hand?

---

What does the US and Central America have in common? Certainly you are intelligent enough to figure that one out…

The data has been provided to you. Mental health is far worse in the US than any other developed country. We have an out of control border that floods us with guns, drugs, and organized crime. These things rival Central American countries (per data provided to you). The only difference is that the US allows for people to own guns, otherwise I can only imagine how much more similar we'd be to some of the 3rd world Central American countries with regards to death toll.

---

Where is this evidence of mental health in the US far worse than other developed countries? But lets assume it is, we then allow those people to gain access to weapons legally. Does that not sound like an issue to you?

Again, lets make those laws tough. You want a gun, fine, lets do a medical/mental health exam, lets have access to your SM activities, lets visit those of others in your house who would have access to the weapon, and then lets renew that on some regular schedule in case you are slipping?

---

You were given the information yesterday evening…

not everyone seeks mental health treatment because you can't legally force anyone to do so.

I find this idea of my personal safety being left in the hands of a liberal Therapist, incredibly stupid and I won't ever allow the government into my home. You seem to be ignoring the constitution here. What you are suggesting results in the loss of numerous rights and liberties.

And once again you ignore the elephant in the room, what you are suggesting only applies to people who follow the laws.

---

right -- so we all want people who are mentally unstable from having guns, but we don't really want to do the dirty work to make sure that happens.

And you are ignoring the other elephant in the room -- people who followed the laws just killed about 30 people in schools in just the 2 most discussed incidents (which woudl be Uvalde, forever, and whatever the most recent one is, which in this case is Nashville).

---

I can't predict that you won't drink 8 beers tonight and then decide to drive a vehicle, so, let's just revoke your license. Sound good to you?

---

I don't drink, actually.
So you can put pretty bows on it any way you want, but ultimately your answer is what I started with, as is Cary's it's the price of being an American and having rights granted 200 years ago.

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Wufpack17 said:

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Packchem91 said:

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Wufpack17 said:

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Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

If it were "the guns!!!", then explain why 99.9% of gun owners haven't committed a gun crime?

The issue is people who willingly choose to kill others. This isn't rocket science, this doesn't require mental gymnastics.

You will have to explain to me why we better protect our arenas and concert venues than we do our schools. Hell, you can't get into my office without a key fob! But you can walk right into my kids school. That's a problem.

---

I'll ask you the reverse, if its "not the guns", why is this a uniquely American issue (well, and Central American one too)?

Are we meaner? More urban crowded? The only ones who have access to SM or gory movies? Only one with bad leaders? More mentally unstable?
Or, just a lot more likely to have a gun in hand?

---

What does the US and Central America have in common? Certainly you are intelligent enough to figure that one out…

The data has been provided to you. Mental health is far worse in the US than any other developed country. We have an out of control border that floods us with guns, drugs, and organized crime. These things rival Central American countries (per data provided to you). The only difference is that the US allows for people to own guns, otherwise I can only imagine how much more similar we'd be to some of the 3rd world Central American countries with regards to death toll.

---

Where is this evidence of mental health in the US far worse than other developed countries? But lets assume it is, we then allow those people to gain access to weapons legally. Does that not sound like an issue to you?

Again, lets make those laws tough. You want a gun, fine, lets do a medical/mental health exam, lets have access to your SM activities, lets visit those of others in your house who would have access to the weapon, and then lets renew that on some regular schedule in case you are slipping?

---

You were given the information yesterday evening…

not everyone seeks mental health treatment because you can't legally force anyone to do so.

I find this idea of my personal safety being left in the hands of a liberal Therapist, incredibly stupid and I won't ever allow the government into my home. You seem to be ignoring the constitution here. What you are suggesting results in the loss of numerous rights and liberties.

And once again you ignore the elephant in the room, what you are suggesting only applies to people who follow the laws.

---

right -- so we all want people who are mentally unstable from having guns, but we don't really want to do the dirty work to make sure that happens.

And you are ignoring the other elephant in the room -- people who followed the laws just killed about 30 people in schools in just the 2 most discussed incidents (which woudl be Uvalde, forever, and whatever the most recent one is, which in this case is Nashville).

---

I can't predict that you won't drink 8 beers tonight and then decide to drive a vehicle, so, let's just revoke your license. Sound good to you?

---

I don't drink, actually.
So you can put pretty bows on it any way you want, but ultimately your answer is what I started with, as is Cary's it's the price of being an American and having rights granted 200 years ago.

---

How do I know that you won't text and drive and cause a horrible wreck? The only way we can ensure that this won't happen, is if we take your vehicle from you...

I am just using YOUR logic. Kind of sucks, right?

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Packchem91 said:

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caryking said:

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Isn't it amazing that sane people continue to debate with the insane... Transgenderism isn't sane. Remember when we used to call Men dressing as women, drag queens? It took a person that has a few screws loose to do that, back in the 70's. Now, we have mainstreamed it and some want to make it a protected class.

No wonder we have so many mass shootings. The acceptance, in culture, has more likely created this mess, than anything else, and some want to look for a boogie man. If you want to fix the problem, get to the root of the problem. This country has gone MAD!!!


BTW, any gun legislation should be met with a constitutional challenge. If you want to put any restrictions on gun ownership and bullets, you need 2/3 of the house and 3/4 of the states. Guns and bullets are 100% individual rights that the constitution recognizes. The constitution did "NOT" give the people this right; rather, the people recognized this individual right and said:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

So, Chem, quit talking about this diatribe. Start a commission to repeal and replace the 2nd amendment, if you feel compelled. Other than that, I want any law that precludes the free flow of commerce for the purchase of firearms overturned.

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Got it. So again, what are you going to do to limit people who should not have guns from having them

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TheStorm said:

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He's also completely ignoring the fact that he's been given statistics that refute his assertion that the US is the outlier v. every other similar country… but he has to ignore that information, because he can't allow himself to acknowledge what it really says.

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caryking said:

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Packchem91 said:

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caryking said:

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Isn't it amazing that sane people continue to debate with the insane... Transgenderism isn't sane. Remember when we used to call Men dressing as women, drag queens? It took a person that has a few screws loose to do that, back in the 70's. Now, we have mainstreamed it and some want to make it a protected class.

No wonder we have so many mass shootings. The acceptance, in culture, has more likely created this mess, than anything else, and some want to look for a boogie man. If you want to fix the problem, get to the root of the problem. This country has gone MAD!!!


BTW, any gun legislation should be met with a constitutional challenge. If you want to put any restrictions on gun ownership and bullets, you need 2/3 of the house and 3/4 of the states. Guns and bullets are 100% individual rights that the constitution recognizes. The constitution did "NOT" give the people this right; rather, the people recognized this individual right and said:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

So, Chem, quit talking about this diatribe. Start a commission to repeal and replace the 2nd amendment, if you feel compelled. Other than that, I want any law that precludes the free flow of commerce for the purchase of firearms overturned.

---

Got it. So again, what are you going to do to limit people who should not have guns from having them

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Probably nothing…. Shall not is pretty exact, isn't it?

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packgrad said:

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Wufpack17 said:

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Packchem91 said:

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Wufpack17 said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

If it were "the guns!!!", then explain why 99.9% of gun owners haven't committed a gun crime?

The issue is people who willingly choose to kill others. This isn't rocket science, this doesn't require mental gymnastics.

You will have to explain to me why we better protect our arenas and concert venues than we do our schools. Hell, you can't get into my office without a key fob! But you can walk right into my kids school. That's a problem.

---

I'll ask you the reverse, if its "not the guns", why is this a uniquely American issue (well, and Central American one too)?

Are we meaner? More urban crowded? The only ones who have access to SM or gory movies? Only one with bad leaders? More mentally unstable?
Or, just a lot more likely to have a gun in hand?

---

What does the US and Central America have in common? Certainly you are intelligent enough to figure that one out…

The data has been provided to you. Mental health is far worse in the US than any other developed country. We have an out of control border that floods us with guns, drugs, and organized crime. These things rival Central American countries (per data provided to you). The only difference is that the US allows for people to own guns, otherwise I can only imagine how much more similar we'd be to some of the 3rd world Central American countries with regards to death toll.

---

Where is this evidence of mental health in the US far worse than other developed countries? But lets assume it is, we then allow those people to gain access to weapons legally. Does that not sound like an issue to you?

Again, lets make those laws tough. You want a gun, fine, lets do a medical/mental health exam, lets have access to your SM activities, lets visit those of others in your house who would have access to the weapon, and then lets renew that on some regular schedule in case you are slipping?

---

You were given the information yesterday evening…

not everyone seeks mental health treatment because you can't legally force anyone to do so.

I find this idea of my personal safety being left in the hands of a liberal Therapist, incredibly stupid and I won't ever allow the government into my home. You seem to be ignoring the constitution here. What you are suggesting results in the loss of numerous rights and liberties.

And once again you ignore the elephant in the room, what you are suggesting only applies to people who follow the laws.

---

right -- so we all want people who are mentally unstable from having guns, but we don't really want to do the dirty work to make sure that happens.

And you are ignoring the other elephant in the room -- people who followed the laws just killed about 30 people in schools in just the 2 most discussed incidents (which woudl be Uvalde, forever, and whatever the most recent one is, which in this case is Nashville).

---

I can't predict that you won't drink 8 beers tonight and then decide to drive a vehicle, so, let's just revoke your license. Sound good to you?

---

I don't drink, actually.
So you can put pretty bows on it any way you want, but ultimately your answer is what I started with, as is Cary's it's the price of being an American and having rights granted 200 years ago.

---

How do I know that you won't text and drive and cause a horrible wreck? The only way we can ensure that this won't happen, is if we take your vehicle from you...

I am just using YOUR logic. Kind of sucks, right?

---

Apples to oranges - I keep reading here that we just need to keep the crazies from getting guns. Law abiding people are not the prblem.
So how do we know who the people who shouldn't have guns are?
We see a cause effect between angry hate-filled messaging on SM and then these actions.
I am told now trandgenderism is a sign.

What you are doing is simply defending all the reasons there should be no changes. Which is a prevailing argument nationally with the gun lobby and why we keep having these incidents when no other country does

Which again proves my point - it is the guns

---

There should be no changes because any change that's been proposed, by and large, does nothing. And it also requires stripping away several amendment's.

Only a lame brained monkey would think "ITS THE GUNS111!!!1!!!!", when for nearly 200+ years, we didn't have mass shootings, even though we had more guns than people. You just can't face the fact that isn't the guns. 25 years ago Guns jumped off the shelves and started shooting up schools, why did Guns decide to do that?

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Enforcing the existing laws would be a welcome change. But you can't virtue signal off that.

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Wufpack17 said:

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Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Wufpack17 said:

---

If it were "the guns!!!", then explain why 99.9% of gun owners haven't committed a gun crime?

The issue is people who willingly choose to kill others. This isn't rocket science, this doesn't require mental gymnastics.

You will have to explain to me why we better protect our arenas and concert venues than we do our schools. Hell, you can't get into my office without a key fob! But you can walk right into my kids school. That's a problem.

---

I'll ask you the reverse, if its "not the guns", why is this a uniquely American issue (well, and Central American one too)?

Are we meaner? More urban crowded? The only ones who have access to SM or gory movies? Only one with bad leaders? More mentally unstable?
Or, just a lot more likely to have a gun in hand?

---

What does the US and Central America have in common? Certainly you are intelligent enough to figure that one out…

The data has been provided to you. Mental health is far worse in the US than any other developed country. We have an out of control border that floods us with guns, drugs, and organized crime. These things rival Central American countries (per data provided to you). The only difference is that the US allows for people to own guns, otherwise I can only imagine how much more similar we'd be to some of the 3rd world Central American countries with regards to death toll.

---

Where is this evidence of mental health in the US far worse than other developed countries? But lets assume it is, we then allow those people to gain access to weapons legally. Does that not sound like an issue to you?

Again, lets make those laws tough. You want a gun, fine, lets do a medical/mental health exam, lets have access to your SM activities, lets visit those of others in your house who would have access to the weapon, and then lets renew that on some regular schedule in case you are slipping?

---

You were given the information yesterday evening…

not everyone seeks mental health treatment because you can't legally force anyone to do so.

I find this idea of my personal safety being left in the hands of a liberal Therapist, incredibly stupid and I won't ever allow the government into my home. You seem to be ignoring the constitution here. What you are suggesting results in the loss of numerous rights and liberties.

And once again you ignore the elephant in the room, what you are suggesting only applies to people who follow the laws.

---

right -- so we all want people who are mentally unstable from having guns, but we don't really want to do the dirty work to make sure that happens.

And you are ignoring the other elephant in the room -- people who followed the laws just killed about 30 people in schools in just the 2 most discussed incidents (which woudl be Uvalde, forever, and whatever the most recent one is, which in this case is Nashville).

---

I can't predict that you won't drink 8 beers tonight and then decide to drive a vehicle, so, let's just revoke your license. Sound good to you?

---

I don't drink, actually.
So you can put pretty bows on it any way you want, but ultimately your answer is what I started with, as is Cary's it's the price of being an American and having rights granted 200 years ago.

---

How do I know that you won't text and drive and cause a horrible wreck? The only way we can ensure that this won't happen, is if we take your vehicle from you...

I am just using YOUR logic. Kind of sucks, right?

---