Pacfanweb said:

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How to break the cycle:

My wife's family:

As poor as any family in America, is how she grew up. Alcoholic, no-working dad. Neglectful mom.

4 kids.

Brother went to the army, then worked in factories, did okay. Broke the cycle.

Oldest sis, army, worked in factories, married a black deadbeat druggie who was useless to his family. 3 girls. She lived in absolute squalor, but provided everything they needed, and sacrificed everything for them.
2 oldest grew up, went to college, married, kids, in good shape. Broke the cycle.

Next sis, married local loser. 3 boys with cognitive issues. 2 fairly functional, but worthless. She finally got straightened out in her 40's, doing better now. Kind of broke the cycle, but took awhile.

Wife: Youngest. Mother did absolutely nothing for her. She excelled in school, hung out with kids that had whole families, National Honors Society, marching band, etc. Put herself through college. Broke the cycle.

It CAN be done. Just need the work ethic.

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Civilized said:

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Pacfanweb said:

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How to break the cycle:

My wife's family:

As poor as any family in America, is how she grew up. Alcoholic, no-working dad. Neglectful mom.

4 kids.

Brother went to the army, then worked in factories, did okay. Broke the cycle.

Oldest sis, army, worked in factories, married a black deadbeat druggie who was useless to his family. 3 girls. She lived in absolute squalor, but provided everything they needed, and sacrificed everything for them.
2 oldest grew up, went to college, married, kids, in good shape. Broke the cycle.

Next sis, married local loser. 3 boys with cognitive issues. 2 fairly functional, but worthless. She finally got straightened out in her 40's, doing better now. Kind of broke the cycle, but took awhile.

Wife: Youngest. Mother did absolutely nothing for her. She excelled in school, hung out with kids that had whole families, National Honors Society, marching band, etc. Put herself through college. Broke the cycle.

It CAN be done. Just need the work ethic.

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Your wife's family did well making better lives for themselves.

But don't confuse being poor, or struggling, with generational poverty. Not at all the same. In your judgment was your wife's family experiencing being poor, or generational poverty?

Partially to your point, I would be so supportive of two years of mandatory military service for every able bodied American. Would help so many different aspects of improving outcomes.

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Civilized said:

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Pacfanweb said:

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IseWolf22 said:

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packgrad said:

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Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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You can call it whatever you want to call it. White privilege, majority privilege, whatever appeases you're white guilt. You certainly won't call for personal accountability.... unless it's white people being accountable for people that lived 200 years before them.

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So now we're too far away from slavery to be accountable. Should be water under the bridge, right? Cool.

So, when were white people accountable for slavery?

When did they really, truly own it and what did they do to be 'accountable'?

In 1880?

1900?

1920?

If you say we're way past that now, then it must have been sometime much earlier. So point to that. Let's start there.

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Avoid and deflect. Also, love how you're all in on white people having to be accountable for things other white people did. Would be racist if we did that with, let's say, black people. White guilt must keep you up at night.

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Who should be primarily accountable for things white people did? Black people? Natives? LOLOLOL. Somebody's got to be accountable. Or are you saying nobody should be? Black Americans and Native Americans can do their part but policy changes require white support since we're the majority.

That's not racist it's just common sense. It's a numbers game.

I don't feel guilt, I just know whites are in the unique position to change the way things are done.

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It's not racist? Lol. White people should be accountable for things they had nothing to do with simply because they're white. And that's not racist? Lol.

While you're doing your common sense numbers game, do violent crime and murder. Let's get things cleaned up there using common sense numbers to determine accountability.

You clearly don't feel white guilt. You just feel white people should be responsible for things they did not do. Totally not white guilt....

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I bear no guilt for the sins of my forefathers. That doesnt mean I cant assess the landscape of America today and conclude that in many parts of the country, black Americans have not had the same opportunity or experience that I've had as a white man.
Economic and educational outcomes are in fact largely correlated with those of your parent. So while don't have any guilt for my ancestors actions, I can recognize that poor black Americans are still feeling residual effects of policies that have been ended.
Even now, access to education is not equal. Treatment in the justice system is not equal. I don't support reparations, but I support specific actions to address problems TODAY. Police reform being the focus right now

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I agree with most of that, except the education part.

In what way is "access to education not equal"? I'd say black's "access to education" is BETTER.

They go to the same schools K-12. So equal access there.

If they qualify for a 4 year college, there are far more options in the way of scholarships and grants for them, than for a white person...simply based on race.

I suspect it's the same for a CC.

So how is their 'access to education' not equal?

I still say their "attitude towards education" is what the real problem is.

But yeah, in the past, there's no doubt that their opportunity wasn't the same....I just don't believe that's the case now. I think THEY are the primary ones holding themselves back at this point, and it's been that way for a good long while, now.

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Have you looked at any studies on economically and racially segregated schools, or inter-generational economic mobility? Or are you just saying what you say about educational and economic opportunities because you think, want, or 'suspect' them to be true?

Find some studies and come back to the conversation with data.

They don't 'go to the same schools'.

72% of black students attend high-poverty schools.

31% of white students do.

White students perform between 2 and 4 grade levels ahead of their black peers in major cities in the US.

Look at edopportunity.org and

https://www.epi.org/publication/schools-are-still-segregated-and-black-children-are-paying-a-price/

Are they the same schools?

Which schools have more resources, more role models, better teachers, fewer disciplinary distractions, more successful peer groups, more challenging and varied programs, less food instability, less housing instability, etc.?

Stop starting with a conclusion and then just rationalizing that the facts support your conclusion. Do some research.

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IseWolf22 said:

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cowboypack02 said:

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Civilized said:

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Pacfanweb said:

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IseWolf22 said:

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packgrad said:

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Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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You can call it whatever you want to call it. White privilege, majority privilege, whatever appeases you're white guilt. You certainly won't call for personal accountability.... unless it's white people being accountable for people that lived 200 years before them.

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So now we're too far away from slavery to be accountable. Should be water under the bridge, right? Cool.

So, when were white people accountable for slavery?

When did they really, truly own it and what did they do to be 'accountable'?

In 1880?

1900?

1920?

If you say we're way past that now, then it must have been sometime much earlier. So point to that. Let's start there.

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Avoid and deflect. Also, love how you're all in on white people having to be accountable for things other white people did. Would be racist if we did that with, let's say, black people. White guilt must keep you up at night.

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Who should be primarily accountable for things white people did? Black people? Natives? LOLOLOL. Somebody's got to be accountable. Or are you saying nobody should be? Black Americans and Native Americans can do their part but policy changes require white support since we're the majority.

That's not racist it's just common sense. It's a numbers game.

I don't feel guilt, I just know whites are in the unique position to change the way things are done.

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It's not racist? Lol. White people should be accountable for things they had nothing to do with simply because they're white. And that's not racist? Lol.

While you're doing your common sense numbers game, do violent crime and murder. Let's get things cleaned up there using common sense numbers to determine accountability.

You clearly don't feel white guilt. You just feel white people should be responsible for things they did not do. Totally not white guilt....

---

I bear no guilt for the sins of my forefathers. That doesnt mean I cant assess the landscape of America today and conclude that in many parts of the country, black Americans have not had the same opportunity or experience that I've had as a white man.
Economic and educational outcomes are in fact largely correlated with those of your parent. So while don't have any guilt for my ancestors actions, I can recognize that poor black Americans are still feeling residual effects of policies that have been ended.
Even now, access to education is not equal. Treatment in the justice system is not equal. I don't support reparations, but I support specific actions to address problems TODAY. Police reform being the focus right now

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I agree with most of that, except the education part.

In what way is "access to education not equal"? I'd say black's "access to education" is BETTER.

They go to the same schools K-12. So equal access there.

If they qualify for a 4 year college, there are far more options in the way of scholarships and grants for them, than for a white person...simply based on race.

I suspect it's the same for a CC.

So how is their 'access to education' not equal?

I still say their "attitude towards education" is what the real problem is.

But yeah, in the past, there's no doubt that their opportunity wasn't the same....I just don't believe that's the case now. I think THEY are the primary ones holding themselves back at this point, and it's been that way for a good long while, now.

---

Have you looked at any studies on economically and racially segregated schools, or inter-generational economic mobility? Or are you just saying what you say about educational and economic opportunities because you think, want, or 'suspect' them to be true?

Find some studies and come back to the conversation with data.

They don't 'go to the same schools'.

72% of black students attend high-poverty schools.

31% of white students do.

White students perform between 2 and 4 grade levels ahead of their black peers in major cities in the US.

Look at edopportunity.org and

https://www.epi.org/publication/schools-are-still-segregated-and-black-children-are-paying-a-price/

Are they the same schools?

Which schools have more resources, more role models, better teachers, fewer disciplinary distractions, more successful peer groups, more challenging and varied programs, less food instability, less housing instability, etc.?

Stop starting with a conclusion and then just rationalizing that the facts support your conclusion. Do some research.

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If this is true then you most definitely support the republican stance of school choice, as opposed to the the democrats and teachers unions who disagree with it....right?

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I do! School choice is a win win for families

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