packgrad said:

---

PackPA2015 said:

---

packgrad said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

This is where I have trouble with your argument, because I don't find any number acceptable for the amount of people who die during a police encounter or in custody. Again, I don't care about race, I care about making sure that policing is looked at and continually improved upon to try and eliminate these deaths as much as possible.

This is basically the same argument that I've seen in the construction industry over the last 20 years and frankly it's bunk. You strive for zero, you're probably never going to reach it, but to sit there and say any number of death is acceptable is just crazy to me.

---

That's all great in a sunshine and rainbow world, but in the real world you understand that sometimes death happens. Death is most definitely acceptable, especially when you're dealing with people that are trying to kill you. Arm chair quarterbacking and saying no death is acceptable is not in the realm of reasonable expectation.

---

I think they are saying, why can't we at least try to lower the amount of deaths at the hands of the police? They need to be tracked, first. Study the situations in depth and try to learn from each one. If it truly is a civilian issue, how do we attempt to try to help in those situations? How do we attempt to change the reputation or view of police in those communities? If their is training that can be improved or added, why wouldn't you want to try it and see if it works? I don't think anyone here is just trashing the police force in general. I think they are just wanting to see improvements and if we don't try, then it won't improve.

I think this is what Hokie and Civil are hinting at.

The medical community has morbidity and mortality conferences where accidental patient death cases are presented and studied in depth to try to prevent them in the future. Everyone makes mistakes in every profession, but how can we try to limit those as much as possible is always the goal.

---

I think they've done just fine on their own saying what they think. There is no one here arguing that police don't make mistakes and we shouldn't try to limit those mistakes. There are those who say arbitrary numbers are far too many. There are those saying disarming police is the solution. There are those saying let people that resist arrest run free. There are those saying partisan talking points that have nothing to do with people being shot and killed by the police. I'm saying I disagree with those. I've already said how I would improve training.

Call me crazy but if you're a no good POS that resists arrest, and you are the prescribed shade, and you actually somewhat care about your family, at this point why would you comply with police arresting you? Your family will be rich if they kill you. You'll be rich if it makes the nightly news and they don't. The left has incentivized resisting arrest for criminals.

---

I think there is some confusion then. When you say that the number of deaths that we currently have is "acceptable", it seems you are saying that police are not making mistakes and/or that we do not need to do anything about these deaths.

PackPA2015 said:

---

packgrad said:

---

PackPA2015 said:

---

packgrad said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

This is where I have trouble with your argument, because I don't find any number acceptable for the amount of people who die during a police encounter or in custody. Again, I don't care about race, I care about making sure that policing is looked at and continually improved upon to try and eliminate these deaths as much as possible.

This is basically the same argument that I've seen in the construction industry over the last 20 years and frankly it's bunk. You strive for zero, you're probably never going to reach it, but to sit there and say any number of death is acceptable is just crazy to me.

---

That's all great in a sunshine and rainbow world, but in the real world you understand that sometimes death happens. Death is most definitely acceptable, especially when you're dealing with people that are trying to kill you. Arm chair quarterbacking and saying no death is acceptable is not in the realm of reasonable expectation.

---

I think they are saying, why can't we at least try to lower the amount of deaths at the hands of the police? They need to be tracked, first. Study the situations in depth and try to learn from each one. If it truly is a civilian issue, how do we attempt to try to help in those situations? How do we attempt to change the reputation or view of police in those communities? If their is training that can be improved or added, why wouldn't you want to try it and see if it works? I don't think anyone here is just trashing the police force in general. I think they are just wanting to see improvements and if we don't try, then it won't improve.

I think this is what Hokie and Civil are hinting at.

The medical community has morbidity and mortality conferences where accidental patient death cases are presented and studied in depth to try to prevent them in the future. Everyone makes mistakes in every profession, but how can we try to limit those as much as possible is always the goal.

---

I think they've done just fine on their own saying what they think. There is no one here arguing that police don't make mistakes and we shouldn't try to limit those mistakes. There are those who say arbitrary numbers are far too many. There are those saying disarming police is the solution. There are those saying let people that resist arrest run free. There are those saying partisan talking points that have nothing to do with people being shot and killed by the police. I'm saying I disagree with those. I've already said how I would improve training.

Call me crazy but if you're a no good POS that resists arrest, and you are the prescribed shade, and you actually somewhat care about your family, at this point why would you comply with police arresting you? Your family will be rich if they kill you. You'll be rich if it makes the nightly news and they don't. The left has incentivized resisting arrest for criminals.

---

I think there is some confusion then. When you say that the number of deaths that we currently have is "acceptable", it seems you are saying that police are not making mistakes and that we do not need to do anything about them.

---

Hmmm. Sounds to me like you're putting words in someone's mouth. But 1100 is not an unacceptable number to me. Where we can prove that they were "bad deaths" would be unacceptable.

That was meant to be more of a question than a statement. Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth. But now we are getting somewhere; there is obviously disagreement whether the number represents an "acceptable" level or not. However, I think we can all agree that we can and should attempt to improve on the "bad deaths".

Civilized said:

---

Completely agree Hokie.

I could understand doubting that the situation could be substantively improved if we had three deaths a year, or 30, or sadly maybe even 300 because even that large number would put us on par with Canada per capita in terms of fatalities at the hands of police.

But for the number to be 1100 Americans every single year, and then for people to describe desires to reduce that number as leftist propaganda, is crazy to me.

The only way you can come to the conclusion it's propaganda is if you literally think nothing can be done and all talk to the contrary is just political posturing. No matter how comparable or not you think we are to other nations around the world, for us to be the worst in the world by a big factor absolutely does not support the argument that there is nothing that can be done to improve the situation.

Pushing back against every suggestion that could potentially improve the problem is just being a no-monster like my youngest used to be, when she was four or five and would get in these moods where she'd just say no to everything we suggested. It's not rational analysis, and even worse nothing is offered up as an alternative suggestion.

Also nothing I've said is anti-police. Police are safer if we reduce the number of violent encounters they have with the public.

---

Curious on if there is any additional context to the 1100 number compared to other countries. Are the statistics broken down to show how many are a result of resisting arrest and what percentage of the time people resist arrest in each country? Maybe our country has a culture where people resist arrest much more often than other countries, thus resulting in more deaths per capita. I don't know, just spit balling.

Why are we the worst?

What has led to this?

You want to use the word "strawman" along with your lefty buddies but yet you offer NOTHING of substance.

Why don't you tell us WHY we are the worst in the world?

Why does 13.8% of the population account for 80% of ALL violent crimes?

You and your ilk are always spouting off about how bad we need police reform and how there are "too many bad cops."

When are you going to start at the root of the problem?

The black communities that see 95% of the problems ARE the problems. When the "thug life" is glamorized and encouraged what could possibly go wrong.

Case in point: In Louisiana there were 60 people at a 12 year-old's birthday party. Nine kids were shot.

NOT ONE SINGLE WITNESS HAS COME FORWARD.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nine-injured-after-gunfire-erupts-12-year-old-s-birthday-n1264569

Let a Police Officer bump into a car at a Wal Mart, Dollar General with a black person in it and you have 100 witnesses saying the cop was trying to kill the person.

You can say what you want but that's the damn truth. Until the black communities start standing up against the crime, violence and "thug life" wannabes the cops are going to be in those neighborhoods and they should.

There are bad cops but there are a hell of a lot more bad communities and people turning a blind eye to the criminals and their crimes.

Goes back to self accountability. When will the left accept that? The answer is NEVER. As long as the SOCIALIST PARTY has the black vote in droves they will keep them hating the police, poor, mostly uneducated and beholden to the government. LBJ said it best... "(sic) as long as we have the black vote we will always be contenders in elections..."

You and your "strawman" arguments about me are tired and worn out. When will you post any factual sources supporting your claims that the reason we lead the world in police shootings is because we have bad cops?

I'll wait.

So I understand your argument, until the black population is held accountable for the crimes that are committed in their neighborhoods, it's acceptable for the police to kill unarmed persons of all races?

.

hokiewolf said:

---

So I understand your argument, until the black population is held accountable for the crimes that are committed in their neighborhoods, it's acceptable for the police to kill unarmed persons of all races?

---

Yes.

His argument is essentially, "Y'all first."

If that's not his point, he wouldn't continue rolling out crime stats like they somehow refute or cancel our deaths at the hands of police.

They're both problems and we need to try to improve both. One isn't an excuse for the other.

Resisting arrest is absolutely an excuse for deaths at the hands of the police. All objectivity has been lost.

Civilized said:

---

Resisting arrest is not a crime punishable by death last time I checked.

---

You would be wrong. But you support police. Lol.

hokiewolf said:

---

So I understand your argument, until the black population is held accountable for the crimes that are committed in their neighborhoods, it's acceptable for the police to kill unarmed persons of all races?

---

Wow... that's what you took from that?

Pretty pathetic response.

I guess you got your participation trophies shined up the other day and have nothing to do.

Let me put it to you in plain English.

It is a cultural thing. The black communities often times make fun of the members who value the nuclear family, education and adapting to what they refer to as "white society." That's a fact.

Instead they prefer to follow the leads of the gang members, rappers, criminals etc... who constantly say there is no other life than this.

Ask Charles Barkley. He said the same damn thing. Until they decide to let the police know who is committing the crimes and who is responsible for the violence it won't stop.

Until they decide that there isn't a "white society" there is a normal society that doesn't glamorize gangs, dealing drugs, calling women *****es and ho's you are going to continue the cycle of crime and violence that has existed since the SOCIALIST PARTY put it in place in order to maintain a voting base back in the 50's. FACT.

Funny how you, Civ and the rest of your lefty brigade completely ignored the fact that 9 kids were shot at a 12 year-old's birthday party in Louisiana.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/kids-injured-shooting-birthday-party-louisiana-77173370

If a white guy had done it every news outlet in the world would be there and I guarantee you and the lefty brigade would be clamoring for gun control, end to white on black violence.

Good to see the hypocrisy in the left once again knows no bounds. As long as it is black on black crime and violence there aren't votes to be won right? Throw in a good ol' white boy shooting a black guy and man we are going to call the brigade together and shore up our votes and make some campaign dollars off it.

You said a lot of nothing but said a lot. Here's something I'm sure you have never really had to deal with in your millenial upbringing.

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. Everyone doesn't get a trophy in real life.

BBW12OG said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

So I understand your argument, until the black population is held accountable for the crimes that are committed in their neighborhoods, it's acceptable for the police to kill unarmed persons of all races?

---

Wow... that's what you took from that?

Pretty pathetic response.

I guess you got your participation trophies shined up the other day and have nothing to do.

Let me put it to you in plain English.

It is a cultural thing. The black communities often times make fun of the members who value the nuclear family, education and adapting to what they refer to as "white society." That's a fact.

Instead they prefer to follow the leads of the gang members, rappers, criminals etc... who constantly say there is no other life than this.

Ask Charles Barkley. He said the same damn thing. Until they decide to let the police know who is committing the crimes and who is responsible for the violence it won't stop.

Until they decide that there isn't a "white society" there is a normal society that doesn't glamorize gangs, dealing drugs, calling women *****es and ho's you are going to continue the cycle of crime and violence that has existed since the SOCIALIST PARTY put it in place in order to maintain a voting base back in the 50's. FACT.

Funny how you, Civ and the rest of your lefty brigade completely ignored the fact that 9 kids were shot at a 12 year-old's birthday party in Louisiana.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/kids-injured-shooting-birthday-party-louisiana-77173370

If a white guy had done it every news outlet in the world would be there and I guarantee you and the lefty brigade would be clamoring for gun control, end to white on black violence.

Good to see the hypocrisy in the left once again knows no bounds. As long as it is black on black crime and violence there aren't votes to be won right? Throw in a good ol' white boy shooting a black guy and man we are going to call the brigade together and shore up our votes and make some campaign dollars off it.

You said a lot of nothing but said a lot. Here's something I'm sure you have never really had to deal with in your millenial upbringing.

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. Everyone doesn't get a trophy in real life.

---

Buddy, if you want to start a new thread on the shooting in LA I'd be glad to comment on it with my thoughts, but that's not really the topic at hand.

hokiewolf said:

---

BBW12OG said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

So I understand your argument, until the black population is held accountable for the crimes that are committed in their neighborhoods, it's acceptable for the police to kill unarmed persons of all races?

---

Wow... that's what you took from that?

Pretty pathetic response.

I guess you got your participation trophies shined up the other day and have nothing to do.

Let me put it to you in plain English.

It is a cultural thing. The black communities often times make fun of the members who value the nuclear family, education and adapting to what they refer to as "white society." That's a fact.

Instead they prefer to follow the leads of the gang members, rappers, criminals etc... who constantly say there is no other life than this.

Ask Charles Barkley. He said the same damn thing. Until they decide to let the police know who is committing the crimes and who is responsible for the violence it won't stop.

Until they decide that there isn't a "white society" there is a normal society that doesn't glamorize gangs, dealing drugs, calling women *****es and ho's you are going to continue the cycle of crime and violence that has existed since the SOCIALIST PARTY put it in place in order to maintain a voting base back in the 50's. FACT.

Funny how you, Civ and the rest of your lefty brigade completely ignored the fact that 9 kids were shot at a 12 year-old's birthday party in Louisiana.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/kids-injured-shooting-birthday-party-louisiana-77173370

If a white guy had done it every news outlet in the world would be there and I guarantee you and the lefty brigade would be clamoring for gun control, end to white on black violence.

Good to see the hypocrisy in the left once again knows no bounds. As long as it is black on black crime and violence there aren't votes to be won right? Throw in a good ol' white boy shooting a black guy and man we are going to call the brigade together and shore up our votes and make some campaign dollars off it.

You said a lot of nothing but said a lot. Here's something I'm sure you have never really had to deal with in your millenial upbringing.

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. Everyone doesn't get a trophy in real life.

---

Buddy, if you want to start a new thread on the shooting in LA I'd be glad to comment on it with my thoughts, but that's not really the topic at hand.

---

It's OK. You proved my point once again.

Pine - you know how to make the lefties run and hide? Hit them with facts.

I'd really like to know what your point is other than you hate socialists, the current administration and have a real terrible idea of what happens in low income communities you've probably never been in

And I don't run and hide because I don't run fast.

hokiewolf said:

---

I'd really like to know what your point is other than you hate socialists, the current administration and have a real terrible idea of what happens in low income communities you've probably never been in

And I don't run and hide because I don't run fast.

---

I'd be willing to bet BBW has a good understanding of low income neighborhoods. In fact, for me, I've spent time in Section 8 housing, because I had friends that lived there.

I don't wish that kind of living on anyone. Thanks to our Democratic friends, they created the environment that has become section 8 living. This is a perfect example of government doing something they shouldn't!!

This I agree with you on, but there's got to be a way in which you can help induce ownership in lieu of providing housing. Not sure how we get there though without some sort of investment.

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

This I agree with you on, but there's got to be a way in which you can help induce ownership in lieu of providing housing. Not sure how we get there though without some sort of investment.

---

Create jobs and careers...thus minimizing poverty and the need for government supported programs.

---

And you have to make sure the people living in these areas who are able to work actually work. Government handouts to secure the voter base has been the MO since the 1950's and hasn't changed one bit since.

They know it and they capitalize on it.

Add in the race baiting politicians and MSM propaganda partners and you see what you get.

Once again my post was edited for pointing out that I was told by a moderator to not start new topics on subjects being discussed in the current topic. Come on.... what was wrong with telling the truth?

metcalfmafia said:

---

BBW12OG anytime he is typing out a post.

---

Which one are you?

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

This I agree with you on, but there's got to be a way in which you can help induce ownership in lieu of providing housing. Not sure how we get there though without some sort of investment.

---

Create jobs and careers...thus minimizing poverty and the need for government supported programs.

---

I wish it were that simple, but I don't think it is. Unfortunately there are some who have made bad choices that put them in the predicament they are in. You have to remove the stigma of nonviolent criminal convictions with respect to being able to enter the workforce, you probably have to provide additional education because education wasn't important to some in HS, and you have to show that the opportunity you are presenting provides for career growth if they so choose to go down this path in lieu of the current status quo.

You're also going to have to have more investment in mental health services, and I think this is key factor as well and is something that is not a money maker for the healthcare industry.

A lot of that takes investment, and I don't see where that investment in time and money is going to come from.

hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

This I agree with you on, but there's got to be a way in which you can help induce ownership in lieu of providing housing. Not sure how we get there though without some sort of investment.

---

Create jobs and careers...thus minimizing poverty and the need for government supported programs.

---

I wish it were that simple, but I don't think it is. Unfortunately there are some who have made bad choices that put them in the predicament they are in. You have to remove the stigma of nonviolent criminal convictions with respect to being able to enter the workforce, you probably have to provide additional education because education wasn't important to some in HS, and you have to show that the opportunity you are presenting provides for career growth if they so choose to go down this path in lieu of the current status quo.

You're also going to have to have more INVESTMENT in mental health services, and I think this is key factor as well and is something that is not a money maker for the healthcare industry.

A lot of that takes investment, and I don't see where that investment in time and money is going to come from.

---

Hokie you are really showing how inept you are at debate.

Your first sentence in bold is "well, they only broke the law so let's let them off with multiple warnings..."

Your second sentence echoes exactly what I have said numerous times only I say it like it is. The black community for the most part does not emphasize education and in some communities if not most you are called an "Uncle Tom" for wanting to be educated and "acting" smart. It's not accepted in that culture as a positive for the most part. There are outliers as with anything in life but this is the status quo.

Your third sentence sums up your leftist millenial mindset. We aren't going to hold YOU responsible for breaking the law, not taking advantage of the free education that is afforded every single child in the United States and most likely people in this situation will certainly qualify for free college whether it is Community or University level and then we are going to beg you to take a job.

You sum it up by using the word "investment" three times. What you are saying is that the United States Government and it's taxpayers should spend more money for these type of people who have already had the same opportunities as every other American, forgive them for their criminal behavior, re-educate them and give them jobs all the expense of people who did it right the first time.

You my friend really are something else. I can tell you never sat in a Civics class, a Political Science class or a World History class. If you did you didn't listen, pay attention or the education system failed you.

Your entire post is nothing but wait for it...... SOCIALISM.

To the ****ing "T" you just described exactly what I have been saying the lefties want for this country. At no point in your SELF OWNING post did you mention personal responsibility, individual accountability or the people actually contributing anything at all to the process other than being a warm body taking advantage of the tax paying citizens that chose to do things the right way from the start.

Now you can run, hide, deflect and pretend you just didn't get your little rear end shoved into a locker again but it is here for all of the world to see.

Now run along... your participation trophies may need some attention to remind you how "awesome" you are and that "everybody's a winner."

That is a very good point and one problem that does need to change that would make a huge difference. That's what's so troubling about some of the critical race theory stuff, it doubles down on that lie.

Also, what do you think about public schools getting away from getting kids interested in trades? The move to a college education becoming so important to getting into a good job market also I think contributes to some not taking their education seriously because they don't want to go to college.

Lol, I'm probably older than you.

Also, why do you think investment means tax money? I never said that.

You sum it up by using the word "investment" three times. What you are saying is that the United States Government and it's taxpayers should spend more money for these type of people who have already had the same opportunities as every other American, forgive them for their criminal behavior, re-educate them and give them jobs all the expense of people who did it right the first time.

Yes, you have to give some people a do over in order for them to climb out of the hole they dug themselves. That's starts with taking responsibility for your life and moving forward, but it's going to take something to get them started. Sometimes people need a second chance. If they're committed to bettering themselves, what's wrong with making an investment in their success. It'll pay back in time if you do it right.

hokiewolf said:

---

Lol, I'm probably older than you.

Also, why do you think investment means tax money? I never said that.

You sum it up by using the word "investment" three times. What you are saying is that the United States Government and it's taxpayers should spend more money for these type of people who have already had the same opportunities as every other American, forgive them for their criminal behavior, re-educate them and give them jobs all the expense of people who did it right the first time.

Yes, you have to give some people a do over in order for them to climb out of the hole they dug themselves. That's starts with taking responsibility for your life and moving forward, but it's going to take something to get them started. Sometimes people need a second chance. If they're committed to bettering themselves, what's wrong with making an investment in their success. It'll pay back in time if you do it right.

---

Where is this money coming from. You lefties think a Leprechaun is riding in on a Unicorn and going to shower money down to fix all these issues? No. There is not such thing as free money.

Doubtful. If you are you certainly talk like a privileged millenial. As far as you referring to me as never been in a "low income" area I don't have explain myself to you or anyone else but I will tell you I thought I was a "cool kid" up until middle school because I got free lunch. The situation improved dramatically over the next 4 years and life became better. I still paid my own way through college with loans and working the entire time.

I paid my loans back. I haven't asked anyone for a dime to help me and I have a clean criminal record. Not that hard to do.

So where do you suggest this magical money is going to come from? You keep throwing it out there like most lefties do without substantiating a damn thing. Let's hear it. The floor is yours.

It should come from private investment and charity and the only thing government should do is incentivize those who have the ability to provide for those two avenues. I think Governement is a poor spender of money in that pennies on the dollar go to the actual intended recipient.

Congrats on your achievements, I also paid for my own education and didnt get a lot of help, but I realize that we arent a homogeneous society where everyone has the same outcome. Sometimes people do need some help, and that help needs to sometimes come with no strings attached.

I just want you to say the words "I believe in SOCIALISM."

That's exactly what you are proposing. I see you didn't acknowledge the fact that I debated your previous post line by line pointing out where I disagreed with you and pointed out that you in fact are pushing and supporting SOCIALISTS' ideologies.

And you still have failed yet again to put any of the responsibility on the individual person. Since you seem to have missed out on a few concepts in your educational journey please take a look at this. You clearly are a hard lean toward SOCIALISM, and you've proven it once again. You just forgot to hide it and said the quiet part out loud.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualism

ncsualum05 said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

This I agree with you on, but there's got to be a way in which you can help induce ownership in lieu of providing housing. Not sure how we get there though without some sort of investment.

---

I could be wrong but is this not what Trump administration was trying to do with Opportunity Zones? My understanding was they were incentivizing developers to make big investments in poor areas and revitalize them. And to Steve's point the public school system does need to be revamped but since that doesn't seem likely wasn't the promotion of school choice also aligned with this to help low income families who couldn't climb the ladder?

It seems our government and many others don't want to truly do the things it takes to break this cycle but Trump along with some allies seemed like they were trying to do what they could.

---

OZ's incentivize developers to buy/build/develop rentals in traditionally underserved or underdeveloped areas.

The strategy has community benefits, but those benefits do not include increasing home ownership.

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

This I agree with you on, but there's got to be a way in which you can help induce ownership in lieu of providing housing. Not sure how we get there though without some sort of investment.

---

Create jobs and careers...thus minimizing poverty and the need for government supported programs.

---

I think I agree with you here; however, I want to make a few statements...

• Government doesn't create jobs (well, it creates bloat in the massive agency's, both Federal and State)
• Private sector creates jobs
• Government can create the environment for jobs (less taxes and regulations)
• Biden's proposal have shown they do not create this environment
• Globalist (both parties) and Wall Street kill American jobs
• Immigration (illegal) kills American jobs, rather salaries

I know we have a lot of Trump haters here; however, I believe this hatred has usurped reasonable thinking about issues at hand. His policies (although misled by some of the people in his cabinet) were right on for the betterment of this country. The only ones left behind were the ones complaining and not taking initiative.

People like Mike Pompeo, Peter Navarro, Richard Grenell, Steve Cortes in the Trump admin are the good guys. Most of the rest, were not...