Minnesota Officer Who Shot Daunte Wright Meant to Fire Taser

62,129 Views | 659 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by hokiewolf
IseWolf22
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packgrad said:

IseWolf22 said:

Civilized said:

packgrad said:

American police dealing with violent criminals are going to have violent interactions. Sitting in your desk chair saying how many they SHOULD have is woke virtue signaling. How many killings without cause did they have last year? Unlike you, I understand accidents happen. That is the nature of the business in high stress environments. Those people should be dealt with. Labeling the entire police force because of the rare exceptions when accidents do happen is simply trying to force a narrative.

I don't know why you dig in so hard against the notion that we can police better than we do.

POLICE don't even push back that hard against improvement. It's why you've seen an uptick in de-escalation training in recent years.

Cops in other first world countries deal with violent criminals in high stress environments too.

And yet, they do not kill nearly as many of their citizens as we do of ours. We kill more than any other first world nation. Several times more.

Should we not try to improve that situation? Can we not learn from other countries that have outcomes that are between 4x and 60x better than our police at not killing their citizens?
It floors me that people are so resistant to the notion that policing can't or shouldn't be less violent than what we have today. It implies that Americans just less morale, and more violent than every other developed nation's citizens. The media certainly sensationalizes everything, and they overplay race as a factor (class matters more). However, we have numerous opportunities for reform, from decriminalization, to training and accountability.

To start, we need MORE Police with better, longer training and generally higher pay. That said, there needs to be actual accountability as well. All these comments about lamenting about the "attacks" on police ignore the fact that historically it's been extraordinarily hard to punish bad officers. Only recently have some states started to make reforms here and it never would have happened without public pressure. Union arbitration overturns the majority of officer misconduct firings. Even if an officer is fired, as long as they aren't convicted of crime, they can move to another jurisdiction and no nationalized record exists to prevent them working again. Qualified immunity shields them from civil lawsuit for all types of misconduct, even when the judges agree that the act was egregious.

We also shouldn't be teaching officers "Killology" which creates a mindset that perpetrators are animals to be corralled instead of other people. De-escalation training is proven to work. And finally we just need less criminalization of non-violent offenses. The Drug war has failed. It's lost. Low level crap just antagonizes the relations between the poor and police, adds to overincarceration, and leads to recidivism.


Disagreed on less violent. Police need to be better trained in how to subdue people quickly. That is through aggressive, assertive violent action. We don't want police to use guns. We don't want police to use tasers. We don't want police to choke. We don't want police to use batons. We think just talking to the people resisting arrest will do it. Or letting them go and another group that Democrats are trying to phase out will go round them up.

Get rid of qualified immunity, or revamp it so it's not protective of bad cops. Fine.

I'm not sure what I feel on legalizing drugs. There was a time I supported it but now seeing the areas that have legalized drugs become vagrant cities and crime skyrocket, I'm not sure I agree with that anymore.

Nobody is teaching cops killology. That's just a liberal taking point. But quite frankly, police have the right to defend themselves. Unfortunately the left disagrees. You think we need more police, better training, and better pay. Good luck getting that with the direction the left is going.

You say the squad is the radicals on their side. Funny how their way keeps getting through. Areas where defunding the police has been pushed through has seen homicides sky rocket. If nobody supports these ideas, how are they being pushed through.

It used to be making people show papers to get into certain places was considered Hitler-esque. Now it's trying to be pushed through in all different segments of industry and the country. IDs were racist. Now, it isn't.

You say the radicals aren't supported and have no power yet somehow they keep getting their way.

I remember when "Silence is violence" and "Silence is support". Somehow that same mindset isn't used with the radical leftists.
If you want to throw in jui jitsu into the training budget, be my guest. But I can't buy the argument that policing needs to be more violent than it is today. Killology is absolutely a thing. David Grossman is the one evangelizing it and is one of the most used police trainers in America, giving seminars across the country. There is a subculture among Police that views themselves as warriors and "Sheepdogs" protecting the "sheep" against Wolves and anarchy. It's an antagonistic mindset where every interaction could be deadly, therefore cops are more likely to engage in an aggressive and hostile manner. I'll link an article on Killology below, but if you google the term and David Grossman you can find more from other sources.

Which cities with legal drugs do you think have skyrocketing crime? Because full decriminalization has just started being a thing recently, and is in place extremely few places. If you're looking at places like SF, their problem isn't drugs, it's a hyper liberal city council that's more interested in yelling at big tech than actually trying address the housing shortages or other problems affecting the homeless. Baltimore just saw large drops in reports of violent and property crime when they decided to stop arresting people for victimless crimes.

As far as AOC and defunding the police, this has only happened in extremely liberal cities where the left fringe controls the city council. Let them experiment with this and you'll likely see the pendulum swing the other way if/when residents are harmed. It's an extremely unpopular opinion nationally with something like 85% of people opposing, including majorities of Democrats and African Americans.


https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/08/warrior-cop-class-dave-grossman-killology.html
BBW12OG
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tuffy1006 said:

BBW12OG said:

When the "cops" are facing drug dealers, gangs, many who are here illegally and because they are in sanctuary cities they are released after being arrested, they need to be soldiers.

You know why? Because the gangs and cartels are armed better than they are.

Before you soap box gun control remember most of these guns ARE illegal and were purchased/stolen illegally.

You expect the "cops" to do "cop" work against paramilitary groups that have owned the streets for decades under Democrat rule?

Again.. I could care less about your politics. All I know is what I read. I'm not angry... I'm actually quite content that the lefties have gotten exactly what 74 million Americans knew what would happen when this **** show of an administration took over.

You can obfuscate all you want and fail to address anything I have said. Typical... you can be fake offended by me calling the left lefties... I could honestly give a ***** Even more so I could give a **** about your opinion of my wife, family or anyone I'm in contact with.

The fact you can't argue points and facts that I bring is telling. You have no substance just bluster.

Quite frankly you seem to be the one that is dissatisfied with your station in life. I'm comfortable enough to come on here, voice my opinion, provide facts, sources, links to support them.

What the hell have you done or contributed other than calling me a big meanie?
I sure am glad you idiots are dying off. Go have another makers....
Again...look up the word obfuscate... you obviously don't have a clue what it means..

By the way I'm 46.. will be 47 this year. I also prefer Woodford but Makers isn't bad. Not my go to but I wouldn't turn it down.

Now run along and see if you can't complete the latest Tik Tok challenge.

Adults are talking.
Civilized
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BBW12OG said:

You are dead wrong on this line...dead wrong...

Quote:

Stop sending cops armed with guns to community and mental health calls that don't require an armed response.
These "community and mental health" calls are the most dangerous and high risk for police officers. Many times these individuals are armed, have hostages (mostly family members) and are at high risk for using deadly force.

What are you going to do? Ask them to sit on the couch and talk to them? You don't think LEOs need to have guns to protect the innocent from the people they are being called to address?

You lefties have a sense of reality that is beyond belief. You watch too many BS television shows depicting sunshine and rainbow outcomes 90% of the time.

Tell me this, a schizophrenic takes four people hostage with a gun.... you want to send to 20 something psych majors to "talk him out" of killing the people who he thinks are trying to kill him?

It's all well and good on paper. When this happens and the two psych officers have their brains blown out I guess that is just part of the job right?

But the perp didn't get injured. Is that the left's end game?

Geez.... here in lies the problem. Too many people only see the Utopian outcome and not the reality.

Most, if not all, and I mean major, not two stoplight town Police Departments, have psych officers that are accompanied by field officers. That is SOP. And they do a damn good job.

It's funny to me that the very same people that have clamored for "defunding the police" are now clamoring for interventionists, psychologists etc...

Once again the hypocrisy of the left knows absolutely no boundaries.

You won't even slow down and stop being angry long enough to think.

Nobody is saying to send a geriatric Wal-mart greeter to a resolve a life-threatening hostage situation.

Between a third and two-thirds of calls are non-urgent, administrative, or otherwise do not require an armed response.

If there's hostages then call in SWAT but hostage responses isn't what we're talking about here. Mental health, addiction, homelessness, noise complaints, taking statements from car accidents and other petty crime complaints, car alarms going off, spraying fire hydrants, etc. Community responders are ideal respondents to these types of calls.

Not sending cops to these types of calls significantly reduces armed interactions and also increases trust in neighborhoods where trust of authorities is lacking.

statefan91
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FlossyDFlynt said:


Im not a lawyer in any sense, but I feel like 2nd degree manslaughter is going to be hard to prove. Feels like involuntary manslaughter would have been a more appropriate charge
Here's the statute, it seems like the word "conciously" will be doing a lot of work in the arguments:

2020 Minnesota Statutes
609.205 MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.

A person who causes the death of another by any of the following means is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both:

(1) by the person's culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another; or

(2) by shooting another with a firearm or other dangerous weapon as a result of negligently believing the other to be a deer or other animal; or

(3) by setting a spring gun, pit fall, deadfall, snare, or other like dangerous weapon or device; or

(4) by negligently or intentionally permitting any animal, known by the person to have vicious propensities or to have caused great or substantial bodily harm in the past, to run uncontrolled off the owner's premises, or negligently failing to keep it properly confined; or

(5) by committing or attempting to commit a violation of section 609.378 (neglect or endangerment of a child), and murder in the first, second, or third degree is not committed thereby.
If proven by a preponderance of the evidence, it shall be an affirmative defense to criminal liability under clause (4) that the victim provoked the animal to cause the victim's death.
History:
1963 c 753 art 1 s 609.205; 1984 c 628 art 3 s 11; 1985 c 294 s 6; 1986 c 444; 1989 c 290 art 6 s 5; 1995 c 244 s 14
BBW12OG
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Quote:

(1) by the person's culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another; or
Wow... yeah... they should have went for involuntary... but with that she "willfully" pulled the trigger.

You nailed it... the word consciously will be used and heard 1,000 times. Just by her video reaction I don't believe she knew she had her service weapon in her hand.

All it takes is a shred of doubt.

Man... that place is going to be in for a mess if Chauvin doesn't hang from the front steps of the courthouse. No way either of those two will ever be able to live anywhere in this country safely again.
BBW12OG
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Had Dear Leader not villianized every single person wearing a badge I would say you are correct. The minute an officer arrives in many if not most of these neighborhoods they are immediately pummeled with insults, bottles, rocks, debris etc......

The horse left the barn when Dear Leader took office and declared war on the police.

Good luck getting the toothpaste back in the tube.

You lefties created this mess. Now you have to deal with it.

Just like what is happening at the border. You are full of all these feel good ideas but you have no damn plan, solution or idea how to deal with these fairy tales until it's a full blown catastrophe.

That's what the left has been famous for for decades. Different leader...same ****ty results.
cowboypack02
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FlossyDFlynt said:

packgrad said:



Im not a lawyer in any sense, but I feel like 2nd degree manslaughter is going to be hard to prove. Feels like involuntary manslaughter would have been a more appropriate charge
I think she is being overcharged to appease the mob just like the guy that is on trial in MN was.....its probably not going to end well in either case
packgrad
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IseWolf22 said:

packgrad said:

IseWolf22 said:

Civilized said:

packgrad said:

American police dealing with violent criminals are going to have violent interactions. Sitting in your desk chair saying how many they SHOULD have is woke virtue signaling. How many killings without cause did they have last year? Unlike you, I understand accidents happen. That is the nature of the business in high stress environments. Those people should be dealt with. Labeling the entire police force because of the rare exceptions when accidents do happen is simply trying to force a narrative.

I don't know why you dig in so hard against the notion that we can police better than we do.

POLICE don't even push back that hard against improvement. It's why you've seen an uptick in de-escalation training in recent years.

Cops in other first world countries deal with violent criminals in high stress environments too.

And yet, they do not kill nearly as many of their citizens as we do of ours. We kill more than any other first world nation. Several times more.

Should we not try to improve that situation? Can we not learn from other countries that have outcomes that are between 4x and 60x better than our police at not killing their citizens?
It floors me that people are so resistant to the notion that policing can't or shouldn't be less violent than what we have today. It implies that Americans just less morale, and more violent than every other developed nation's citizens. The media certainly sensationalizes everything, and they overplay race as a factor (class matters more). However, we have numerous opportunities for reform, from decriminalization, to training and accountability.

To start, we need MORE Police with better, longer training and generally higher pay. That said, there needs to be actual accountability as well. All these comments about lamenting about the "attacks" on police ignore the fact that historically it's been extraordinarily hard to punish bad officers. Only recently have some states started to make reforms here and it never would have happened without public pressure. Union arbitration overturns the majority of officer misconduct firings. Even if an officer is fired, as long as they aren't convicted of crime, they can move to another jurisdiction and no nationalized record exists to prevent them working again. Qualified immunity shields them from civil lawsuit for all types of misconduct, even when the judges agree that the act was egregious.

We also shouldn't be teaching officers "Killology" which creates a mindset that perpetrators are animals to be corralled instead of other people. De-escalation training is proven to work. And finally we just need less criminalization of non-violent offenses. The Drug war has failed. It's lost. Low level crap just antagonizes the relations between the poor and police, adds to overincarceration, and leads to recidivism.


Disagreed on less violent. Police need to be better trained in how to subdue people quickly. That is through aggressive, assertive violent action. We don't want police to use guns. We don't want police to use tasers. We don't want police to choke. We don't want police to use batons. We think just talking to the people resisting arrest will do it. Or letting them go and another group that Democrats are trying to phase out will go round them up.

Get rid of qualified immunity, or revamp it so it's not protective of bad cops. Fine.

I'm not sure what I feel on legalizing drugs. There was a time I supported it but now seeing the areas that have legalized drugs become vagrant cities and crime skyrocket, I'm not sure I agree with that anymore.

Nobody is teaching cops killology. That's just a liberal taking point. But quite frankly, police have the right to defend themselves. Unfortunately the left disagrees. You think we need more police, better training, and better pay. Good luck getting that with the direction the left is going.

You say the squad is the radicals on their side. Funny how their way keeps getting through. Areas where defunding the police has been pushed through has seen homicides sky rocket. If nobody supports these ideas, how are they being pushed through.

It used to be making people show papers to get into certain places was considered Hitler-esque. Now it's trying to be pushed through in all different segments of industry and the country. IDs were racist. Now, it isn't.

You say the radicals aren't supported and have no power yet somehow they keep getting their way.

I remember when "Silence is violence" and "Silence is support". Somehow that same mindset isn't used with the radical leftists.
If you want to throw in jui jitsu into the training budget, be my guest. But I can't buy the argument that policing needs to be more violent than it is today. Killology is absolutely a thing. David Grossman is the one evangelizing it and is one of the most used police trainers in America, giving seminars across the country. There is a subculture among Police that views themselves as warriors and "Sheepdogs" protecting the "sheep" against Wolves and anarchy. It's an antagonistic mindset where every interaction could be deadly, therefore cops are more likely to engage in an aggressive and hostile manner. I'll link an article on Killology below, but if you google the term and David Grossman you can find more from other sources.

Which cities with legal drugs do you think have skyrocketing crime? Because full decriminalization has just started being a thing recently, and is in place extremely few places. If you're looking at places like SF, their problem isn't drugs, it's a hyper liberal city council that's more interested in yelling at big tech than actually trying address the housing shortages or other problems affecting the homeless. Baltimore just saw large drops in reports of violent and property crime when they decided to stop arresting people for victimless crimes.

As far as AOC and defunding the police, this has only happened in extremely liberal cities where the left fringe controls the city council. Let them experiment with this and you'll likely see the pendulum swing the other way if/when residents are harmed. It's an extremely unpopular opinion nationally with something like 85% of people opposing, including majorities of Democrats and African Americans.


https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/08/warrior-cop-class-dave-grossman-killology.html


Apologies on killology. I was wrong.

Reading through the article though, it's entirely a hit piece written with an extreme leftist viewpoint. Did you read it and think it was at all objective? I remember when this all came out now, and it was part of the Castle all police are bad because of this guy campaign. I quickly read through the article and didn't have time to digest each viewpoint, but I agreed with a lot of Grossman's training. Not the part about making killing easy and being able to get over it. But how to approach encounters. I completely agree that police are sheepdogs. Police should approach most interactions like they could be deadly.

The writer made light of bullet proof vests, helmets, semi auto rifles and Humvees. Do you not want police to have these items? Does that do anything but make the job more dangerous for police?

Regarding cities with rising crimes because of drugs, it was mostly anecdotal. I listen to a lot of podcasts and the ones I listen to all talk about what a ****hole CA has become. Additionally last time I visited Denver, it was dirty, homeless everywhere, and our Uber guy talked about how much crime had increased since all the vagrants moved in after legalization. Not the Denver I remembered from 20 years ago. I'm a big "The Wire" fan. Think that's where I first heard "Juking the stats". I don't trust anything Baltimore says about crime numbers.

As far as AOC and her crew, I think it's important to continue calling them out. They know if they continue to say the same thing over and over and over, people start to bend to their will. A prime example is when there is a police shooting of (and only of) a black person now, somewhat rational people immediately say the police officer needs to be charged without seeing any evidence. We've been beaten over the head for so long now that police bad when Black person shot, no investigation or evidence is even needed for rioting, protest, and judgement. A better example is "white nationalism is the greatest threat to the country."
IseWolf22
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packgrad said:

IseWolf22 said:

packgrad said:

IseWolf22 said:

Civilized said:

packgrad said:

American police dealing with violent criminals are going to have violent interactions. Sitting in your desk chair saying how many they SHOULD have is woke virtue signaling. How many killings without cause did they have last year? Unlike you, I understand accidents happen. That is the nature of the business in high stress environments. Those people should be dealt with. Labeling the entire police force because of the rare exceptions when accidents do happen is simply trying to force a narrative.

I don't know why you dig in so hard against the notion that we can police better than we do.

POLICE don't even push back that hard against improvement. It's why you've seen an uptick in de-escalation training in recent years.

Cops in other first world countries deal with violent criminals in high stress environments too.

And yet, they do not kill nearly as many of their citizens as we do of ours. We kill more than any other first world nation. Several times more.

Should we not try to improve that situation? Can we not learn from other countries that have outcomes that are between 4x and 60x better than our police at not killing their citizens?
It floors me that people are so resistant to the notion that policing can't or shouldn't be less violent than what we have today. It implies that Americans just less morale, and more violent than every other developed nation's citizens. The media certainly sensationalizes everything, and they overplay race as a factor (class matters more). However, we have numerous opportunities for reform, from decriminalization, to training and accountability.

To start, we need MORE Police with better, longer training and generally higher pay. That said, there needs to be actual accountability as well. All these comments about lamenting about the "attacks" on police ignore the fact that historically it's been extraordinarily hard to punish bad officers. Only recently have some states started to make reforms here and it never would have happened without public pressure. Union arbitration overturns the majority of officer misconduct firings. Even if an officer is fired, as long as they aren't convicted of crime, they can move to another jurisdiction and no nationalized record exists to prevent them working again. Qualified immunity shields them from civil lawsuit for all types of misconduct, even when the judges agree that the act was egregious.

We also shouldn't be teaching officers "Killology" which creates a mindset that perpetrators are animals to be corralled instead of other people. De-escalation training is proven to work. And finally we just need less criminalization of non-violent offenses. The Drug war has failed. It's lost. Low level crap just antagonizes the relations between the poor and police, adds to overincarceration, and leads to recidivism.


Disagreed on less violent. Police need to be better trained in how to subdue people quickly. That is through aggressive, assertive violent action. We don't want police to use guns. We don't want police to use tasers. We don't want police to choke. We don't want police to use batons. We think just talking to the people resisting arrest will do it. Or letting them go and another group that Democrats are trying to phase out will go round them up.

Get rid of qualified immunity, or revamp it so it's not protective of bad cops. Fine.

I'm not sure what I feel on legalizing drugs. There was a time I supported it but now seeing the areas that have legalized drugs become vagrant cities and crime skyrocket, I'm not sure I agree with that anymore.

Nobody is teaching cops killology. That's just a liberal taking point. But quite frankly, police have the right to defend themselves. Unfortunately the left disagrees. You think we need more police, better training, and better pay. Good luck getting that with the direction the left is going.

You say the squad is the radicals on their side. Funny how their way keeps getting through. Areas where defunding the police has been pushed through has seen homicides sky rocket. If nobody supports these ideas, how are they being pushed through.

It used to be making people show papers to get into certain places was considered Hitler-esque. Now it's trying to be pushed through in all different segments of industry and the country. IDs were racist. Now, it isn't.

You say the radicals aren't supported and have no power yet somehow they keep getting their way.

I remember when "Silence is violence" and "Silence is support". Somehow that same mindset isn't used with the radical leftists.
If you want to throw in jui jitsu into the training budget, be my guest. But I can't buy the argument that policing needs to be more violent than it is today. Killology is absolutely a thing. David Grossman is the one evangelizing it and is one of the most used police trainers in America, giving seminars across the country. There is a subculture among Police that views themselves as warriors and "Sheepdogs" protecting the "sheep" against Wolves and anarchy. It's an antagonistic mindset where every interaction could be deadly, therefore cops are more likely to engage in an aggressive and hostile manner. I'll link an article on Killology below, but if you google the term and David Grossman you can find more from other sources.

Which cities with legal drugs do you think have skyrocketing crime? Because full decriminalization has just started being a thing recently, and is in place extremely few places. If you're looking at places like SF, their problem isn't drugs, it's a hyper liberal city council that's more interested in yelling at big tech than actually trying address the housing shortages or other problems affecting the homeless. Baltimore just saw large drops in reports of violent and property crime when they decided to stop arresting people for victimless crimes.

As far as AOC and defunding the police, this has only happened in extremely liberal cities where the left fringe controls the city council. Let them experiment with this and you'll likely see the pendulum swing the other way if/when residents are harmed. It's an extremely unpopular opinion nationally with something like 85% of people opposing, including majorities of Democrats and African Americans.


https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/08/warrior-cop-class-dave-grossman-killology.html


Apologies on killology. I was wrong.

Reading through the article though, it's entirely a hit piece written with an extreme leftist viewpoint. Did you read it and think it was at all objective? I remember when this all came out now, and it was part of the Castle all police are bad because of this guy campaign. I quickly read through the article and didn't have time to digest each viewpoint, but I agreed with a lot of Grossman's training. Not the part about making killing easy and being able to get over it. But how to approach encounters. I completely agree that police are sheepdogs. Police should approach most interactions like they could be deadly.

The writer made light of bullet proof vests, helmets, semi auto rifles and Humvees. Do you not want police to have these items? Does that do anything but make the job more dangerous for police?

Regarding cities with rising crimes because of drugs, it was mostly anecdotal. I listen to a lot of podcasts and the ones I listen to all talk about what a ****hole CA has become. Additionally last time I visited Denver, it was dirty, homeless everywhere, and our Uber guy talked about how much crime had increased since all the vagrants moved in after legalization. Not the Denver I remembered from 20 years ago. I'm a big "The Wire" fan. Think that's where I first heard "Juking the stats". I don't trust anything Baltimore says about crime numbers.

As far as AOC and her crew, I think it's important to continue calling them out. They know if they continue to say the same thing over and over and over, people start to bend to their will. A prime example is when there is a police shooting of (and only of) a black person now, somewhat rational people immediately say the police officer needs to be charged without seeing any evidence. We've been beaten over the head for so long now that police bad when Black person shot, no investigation or evidence is even needed for rioting, protest, and judgement. A better example is "white nationalism is the greatest threat to the country."
No, the article I posted on Killology is not unbiased, but I honestly didn't want to sort through all the search results to find the very best one. That's why I mentioned you could search his name or "killology" to find other sources.

I think the cities you mention have other confounding factors besides drug decriminalization. One of CA's biggest problems right now is overregulation of housing making it extremely costly (or even impossible) to build new housing. CA in general is pretty poorly run IMO. I do think Denver suffered some from being the very first state to legalize. A lot of deadbeats moved there when it was the only legal state.

I actually agree with calling out AOC and the squad. We probably have very similar opinions of them and the media. But I'm just not sure it makes sense here, in this online community, when there really isn't anyone trying to defend them
hokiewolf
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BBW12OG said:

hokiewolf said:

BBW12OG said:

Damn it packgrad stop making so much sense and providing factual arguments. The lefties came out of their holes for a few days and all you are doing is running them back into hiding! You know how they run and hide when they can't counter an argument!

Vaccine passports are OK and everyone should be required to have one.... voter ID is racist.

Requiring people to abide by the law enforcement officers is OK as long as it is something the lefties support...mask wearing, closed religious services, closed businesses, closed schools etc..........

*(but it is OK if you are a SOCIALIST politician then you can do what you want... Pelosi, Newsome, Cuomo, Harris etc....rules only apply to the rube Conservatives...not the liberal elites...)

Requiring people to abide by the law enforcement officers is bad when they are asked to put their hands up, drop the weapon, don't loot the Target, don't loot the Foot Locker, don't loot the Dollar General etc.... that too is racist.
you love the Strawman argument, don't you? Literally no one has said any of this in this thread. All anyone has said is that maybe we should be looking at a different way of policing.

Packgrads post above is a good one. It makes sense and adds to the discussion. Your post however, does none of that.
Where is the strawman argument? You say that but I honestly don't think you know what the word actually means.

You keep saying that we should be looking at a different way of policing but you haven't offered up one single recommendation, idea or thought.

You don't like my posting style and I get that. Saying it doesn't bring anything to the discussion is basically whining like a baby that doesn't get his or her way. You've done that plenty.

What you also have done yet again is fail to dispute any of the facts that I have listed and mentioned. When it doesn't fit your "narrative" you gloss over it, ignore it and use the word "strawman."

Every single thing I have mentioned is intertwined with the premise of the original post. They are ALL related. You may not see it and it is because you choose not to.

Now if you want to bring some ideas to the table feel free to do so. I'll gladly discuss them with you. But to keep saying "strawman" every time you can't refute a point is once again tiresome. But typical.

A strawman is a fallacious argument that distorts an opposing stance in order to make it easier to attack. Essentially, the person using the strawman pretends to attack their opponent's stance, while in reality they are actually attacking a distorted version of that stance, which their opponent doesn't necessarily support.
BBW12OG
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Quote:

A strawman is a fallacious argument that distorts an opposing stance in order to make it easier to attack. Essentially, the person using the strawman pretends to attack their opponent's stance, while in reality they are actually attacking a distorted version of that stance, which their opponent doesn't necessarily support.


So basically 9 out of 10 responses you make are a "strawman" argument. You really are the master of self own.

You haven't addressed one single point or fact yet and you are still on her bumping your gums on how I present "strawman" arguments. What a damn joke.

Here's one for you Hokie ..... why don't you address the topic at hand rather than rambling incessantly about me? Do you have a crush? Do you want me to send you an autographed picture?

Now there's your "strawman." Are you happy?

Last I checked this was about the accidental shooting of a wanted felon and the reaction from the politicians, community and how things need to change. Try and keep up.
hokiewolf
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BBW12OG said:

Quote:

A strawman is a fallacious argument that distorts an opposing stance in order to make it easier to attack. Essentially, the person using the strawman pretends to attack their opponent's stance, while in reality they are actually attacking a distorted version of that stance, which their opponent doesn't necessarily support.


So basically 9 out of 10 responses you make are a "strawman" argument. You really are the master of self own.

You haven't addressed one single point or fact yet and you are still on her bumping your gums on how I present "strawman" arguments. What a damn joke.

Here's one for you Hokie ..... why don't you address the topic at hand rather than rambling incessantly about me? Do you have a crush? Do you want me to send you an autographed picture?

Now there's your "strawman." Are you happy?

Last I checked this was about the accidental shooting of a wanted felon and the reaction from the politicians, community and how things need to change. Try and keep up.

Shouldn't you bold and put in all capitals "STRAWMAN"? I mean, I want consistency here.

And I have addressed the topic at hand in other posts.
Packchem91
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cowboypack02 said:

FlossyDFlynt said:

packgrad said:



Im not a lawyer in any sense, but I feel like 2nd degree manslaughter is going to be hard to prove. Feels like involuntary manslaughter would have been a more appropriate charge
I think she is being overcharged to appease the mob just like the guy that is on trial in MN was.....its probably not going to end well in either case
Yeah, surely it is to appeal to the press mob, but isn't this overcharging a common tool used by prosecutors -- gives them some room to negotiate downwards to get a conviction of some sort?
statefan91
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Packchem91 said:

cowboypack02 said:


I think she is being overcharged to appease the mob just like the guy that is on trial in MN was.....its probably not going to end well in either case
Yeah, surely it is to appeal to the press mob, but isn't this overcharging a common tool used by prosecutors -- gives them some room to negotiate downwards to get a conviction of some sort?
I tend to think it's used to absolve a DA of getting a policeman put in jail, overcharge to something that is unlikely to be proven and you have shown that you will arrest an charge an officer but the jury is the one who can't agree.
caryking
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IseWolf22 said:

Civilized said:

packgrad said:

American police dealing with violent criminals are going to have violent interactions. Sitting in your desk chair saying how many they SHOULD have is woke virtue signaling. How many killings without cause did they have last year? Unlike you, I understand accidents happen. That is the nature of the business in high stress environments. Those people should be dealt with. Labeling the entire police force because of the rare exceptions when accidents do happen is simply trying to force a narrative.

I don't know why you dig in so hard against the notion that we can police better than we do.

POLICE don't even push back that hard against improvement. It's why you've seen an uptick in de-escalation training in recent years.

Cops in other first world countries deal with violent criminals in high stress environments too.

And yet, they do not kill nearly as many of their citizens as we do of ours. We kill more than any other first world nation. Several times more.

Should we not try to improve that situation? Can we not learn from other countries that have outcomes that are between 4x and 60x better than our police at not killing their citizens?
It floors me that people are so resistant to the notion that policing can't or shouldn't be less violent than what we have today. It implies that Americans just less morale, and more violent than every other developed nation's citizens. The media certainly sensationalizes everything, and they overplay race as a factor (class matters more). However, we have numerous opportunities for reform, from decriminalization, to training and accountability.

To start, we need MORE Police with better, longer training and generally higher pay. That said, there needs to be actual accountability as well. All these comments about lamenting about the "attacks" on police ignore the fact that historically it's been extraordinarily hard to punish bad officers. Only recently have some states started to make reforms here and it never would have happened without public pressure. Union arbitration overturns the majority of officer misconduct firings. Even if an officer is fired, as long as they aren't convicted of crime, they can move to another jurisdiction and no nationalized record exists to prevent them working again. Qualified immunity shields them from civil lawsuit for all types of misconduct, even when the judges agree that the act was egregious.

We also shouldn't be teaching officers "Killology" which creates a mindset that perpetrators are animals to be corralled instead of other people. De-escalation training is proven to work. And finally we just need less criminalization of non-violent offenses. The Drug war has failed. It's lost. Low level crap just antagonizes the relations between the poor and police, adds to overincarceration, and leads to recidivism.
That's a lot of nothing... remember, Democrats control the cities where this stuff happens (for the most part). It is their hiring process, their tenure pay schedule, their policies that prohibit firing, and so...

De-escalating training is code word for "blame the police". If you would start from the premise of: the police want to do the right thing, then you may have a different opinion.

Let me draw a comparison to the same people. A doctor makes a mistake in surgery. We then get people who want to sue them for malpractice. If we start from the premise of: the doctors want to do the right thing, then we could mitigate the legal issues and probably wouldn't have such high health care cost.

I'm no dummy and I realize we have exceptions to the rule; however, those exception are probably far rarer than we might even think.

I do not believe, based on what I have read, that this female police officer, did this with any negative intent. So, I start with that premise... based on what I have read, she should not be charged as its an unfortunate result of the job.
BBW12OG
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statefan91 said:

Packchem91 said:

cowboypack02 said:


I think she is being overcharged to appease the mob just like the guy that is on trial in MN was.....its probably not going to end well in either case
Yeah, surely it is to appeal to the press mob, but isn't this overcharging a common tool used by prosecutors -- gives them some room to negotiate downwards to get a conviction of some sort?
I tend to think it's used to absolve a DA of getting a policeman put in jail, overcharge to something that is unlikely to be proven and you have shown that you will arrest an charge an officer but the jury is the one who can't agree.
If Chauvin is found guilty on all charges the city will burn in celebration. If he is acquitted America will burn in protest.

The outcome of that trial will no doubt have an affect on what happens to this officer. You can doubt it, deny it or pretend it won't. It 100% will.

My question is this... what the hell is left for the "peaceful protesters" to destroy? Which one of my "white" lefty brethren wants to jump in front?





The media has made this all about dividing this country further to ensure that the SOCIALIST PARTY's agendas are fulfilled or at least stoke enough fires in order to clamor of drastic changes to our 2nd Amendment Rights, policing and the amount of control the government wields over us. FACT.
caryking
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Civilized said:

pineknollshoresking said:

I don't know Civ; however, the following is what I envision when I read his post:

  • A person sitting in a winged back leather chair
  • Probably has a beard
  • Smoking a pipe
  • Pontificating every thought before he write something
  • Pretends to be an Ivy League professor

All this above allows him to exude an elitist post of superiority. Now, before anybody jumps on me, like I said above, I don't know Civ. This is only my filter when reading his post.

LOLOL

Do I stroke my mythical beard while gazing off into the distance when contemplating my next knowledge drop?

It would be an absolute trip to have an IPS barbecue, beer, and bourbon meetup sometime. Hilarious to see how posters compared in real life to their online persona.
Civ, you like that? I hope you took that with good humor. I thought I would share my filter when I read your post.

I agree with the IPS barbecue deal. That would be a trip. Tell me Civ... who do you most want to meet? I have two people: You and BBW! I'll bet we would have a blast hanging out talking about politics, life, State sports, and a bunch of other topics...
BBW12OG
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Gate F at Carter Finley under the huge Oak Trees that were in the gully was a favorite meeting place..... There's a story.... iF tHey only knew....

Figure it out.
caryking
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BBW12OG said:

Gate F at Carter Finley under the huge Oak Trees that were in the gully was a favorite meeting place..... There's a story.... iF tHey only knew....

Figure it out.
Not following that one... BTW, gate F?
hokiewolf
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pineknollshoresking said:


That's a lot of nothing... remember, Democrats control the cities where this stuff happens (for the most part). It is their hiring process, their tenure pay schedule, their policies that prohibit firing, and so...

De-escalating training is code word for "blame the police". If you would start from the premise of: the police want to do the right thing, then you may have a different opinion.

Let me draw a comparison to the same people. A doctor makes a mistake in surgery. We then get people who want to sue them for malpractice. If we start from the premise of: the doctors want to do the right thing, then we could mitigate the legal issues and probably wouldn't have such high health care cost.

I'm no dummy and I realize we have exceptions to the rule; however, those exception are probably far rarer than we might even think.

I do not believe, based on what I have read, that this female police officer, did this with any negative intent. So, I start with that premise... based on what I have read, she should not be charged as its an unfortunate result of the job.
That's an interesting premise and I've never thought of it that way. I've always looked at it as two people in conflict and the need to use techniques to try and de-escalate the situation so as to not provoke violent reaction. But I think you are right when the language is applied by those with political agendas rather than those like most of us just want to see change.

Great point though
BBW12OG
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pineknollshoresking said:

BBW12OG said:

Gate F at Carter Finley under the huge Oak Trees that were in the gully was a favorite meeting place..... There's a story.... iF tHey only knew....

Figure it out.
Not following that one... BTW, gate F?

A bunch of us always gathered to tailgate at Gate F.....
TheStorm
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hokiewolf said:

packgrad said:

hokiewolf said:

packgrad said:

hokiewolf said:

packgrad said:

hokiewolf said:

BBW12OG said:

Here is more on the guy who was shot. More information is coming out but at this point one of the warrants he skipped out on was for choking a woman and robbing her of $800 or so dollars. Yeah.... I am the one that pre-judged this kid.



What's the point?


It says it right in the headline.
I'm really trying to understand the point you two are making, I really am. Is it because he's wanted for a crime or has a past criminal history make his death more justified in your eyes? Does it make him subhuman so he deserves what he got? I don't get this and I didn't get it with George Floyd either. It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.


That's interesting. I don't think you're trying at all. Has anybody said it's justified? I think it's interesting that you continue to try to put words in peoples mouths. I really do. Both didn't deserve to die. Both probably could have prevented it by not resisting arrest. Both are being made martyrs on tv. But don't bring up that they are both not good people. We have to drive an agenda about police. And how we should let people that resist arrest run free. And militarized police can then go apprehend them. Zzzzzz
Ok, thank you I understand. But the whole resisting arrest thing / escalation by police thinking needs to change or officers need better training to deal with these situations so they don't end in a death of someone who is not armed. That is my point. To your last point I do agree with you in that the path we continue to travel as a country on this issue is a dangerous one because it allows for dangerous ideas to become mainstream. Police need better funding, not less. They need better support from the community, not less. But there needs to be a change in how policing is done because this ain't working.


I think the police are being so mislabeled we won't be able to hire the people necessary to properly train them.

My training for the police would make them more violent, by hands. I think we need to train them like the military. I think they should get hand combat training several times a year, if not monthly. I think there should be no quotas. Women, unless they prove themselves physically equal, should not be accepted. I think they should have real basic training to root out those not fit enough. I think mental health screening needs improvement.

We won't ever get good enough quality people though. Because we have presidents like Obama and congresspeople like Talib that ignore the other 28000 arrests everyday. That ignore they are protected by police forces. That try to drive an agenda. The police are the problem. Not the community. Because victimhood sells. Self accountability is irrelevant.
I agree with that, there should absolutely be personal accountability but at the same token there needs to be a path to rehabilitation and reacceptance into society. The stigma of the criminal record needs to be changed. I think if you do that, you'll have less repeat offenders.
Nope. Every single post you've made here indicates that you don't believe in personal accountability...

... and that is the crux of the issue in society today.

There is no personal accountability anymore. The only reason that kid resisted is because it's been encouraged... he has been taught that it doesn't matter what he does, that he can get away with it.

Where were the protests for the white woman from Pennsylvania riding with her husband in their car through North Carolina on I-95 on their way to a vacation in Florida. Fine upstanding young man, feels he's been disrespected because of a lane change pulls around to the passenger side and fires two shots at the woman...

This is on the interstate here in our state. That could have been you and your wife.

No personal accountability. Empowered to do whatever the **** they want without repercussion.

And you're all for it.
Civilized
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TheStorm said:

hokiewolf said:

packgrad said:

hokiewolf said:

packgrad said:

hokiewolf said:

packgrad said:

hokiewolf said:

BBW12OG said:

Here is more on the guy who was shot. More information is coming out but at this point one of the warrants he skipped out on was for choking a woman and robbing her of $800 or so dollars. Yeah.... I am the one that pre-judged this kid.



What's the point?


It says it right in the headline.
I'm really trying to understand the point you two are making, I really am. Is it because he's wanted for a crime or has a past criminal history make his death more justified in your eyes? Does it make him subhuman so he deserves what he got? I don't get this and I didn't get it with George Floyd either. It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.


That's interesting. I don't think you're trying at all. Has anybody said it's justified? I think it's interesting that you continue to try to put words in peoples mouths. I really do. Both didn't deserve to die. Both probably could have prevented it by not resisting arrest. Both are being made martyrs on tv. But don't bring up that they are both not good people. We have to drive an agenda about police. And how we should let people that resist arrest run free. And militarized police can then go apprehend them. Zzzzzz
Ok, thank you I understand. But the whole resisting arrest thing / escalation by police thinking needs to change or officers need better training to deal with these situations so they don't end in a death of someone who is not armed. That is my point. To your last point I do agree with you in that the path we continue to travel as a country on this issue is a dangerous one because it allows for dangerous ideas to become mainstream. Police need better funding, not less. They need better support from the community, not less. But there needs to be a change in how policing is done because this ain't working.


I think the police are being so mislabeled we won't be able to hire the people necessary to properly train them.

My training for the police would make them more violent, by hands. I think we need to train them like the military. I think they should get hand combat training several times a year, if not monthly. I think there should be no quotas. Women, unless they prove themselves physically equal, should not be accepted. I think they should have real basic training to root out those not fit enough. I think mental health screening needs improvement.

We won't ever get good enough quality people though. Because we have presidents like Obama and congresspeople like Talib that ignore the other 28000 arrests everyday. That ignore they are protected by police forces. That try to drive an agenda. The police are the problem. Not the community. Because victimhood sells. Self accountability is irrelevant.
I agree with that, there should absolutely be personal accountability but at the same token there needs to be a path to rehabilitation and reacceptance into society. The stigma of the criminal record needs to be changed. I think if you do that, you'll have less repeat offenders.
Nope. Every single post you've made here indicates that you don't believe in personal accountability...

... and that is the crux of the issue in society today.

There is no personal accountability anymore. The only reason that kid resisted is because it's been encouraged... he has been taught that it doesn't matter what he does, that he can get away with it.

Where were the protests for the white woman from Pennsylvania riding with her husband in their car through North Carolina on I-95 on their way to a vacation in Florida. Fine upstanding young man, feels he's been disrespected because of a lane change pulls around to the passenger side and fires two shots at the woman...

This is on the interstate here in our state. That could have been you and your wife.

No personal accountability. Empowered to do whatever the **** they want without repercussion.

And you're all for it.

Hokie has told you what he's for you're obviously just not listening.

What does the woman who was tragically murdered along I-95 have to do with a cop accidentally killing a man she was trying to subdue, or with anything Hokie has said?
TheStorm
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tuffy1006 said:


I sure am glad you idiots are dying off. Go have another makers....
Another tried and true supporter of "zero personal accountability", I see... now just waiting for that obligatory "OK Boomer" tagline... that'll show me!
hokiewolf
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TheStorm said:

hokiewolf said:

packgrad said:

hokiewolf said:

packgrad said:

hokiewolf said:

packgrad said:

hokiewolf said:

BBW12OG said:

Here is more on the guy who was shot. More information is coming out but at this point one of the warrants he skipped out on was for choking a woman and robbing her of $800 or so dollars. Yeah.... I am the one that pre-judged this kid.



What's the point?


It says it right in the headline.
I'm really trying to understand the point you two are making, I really am. Is it because he's wanted for a crime or has a past criminal history make his death more justified in your eyes? Does it make him subhuman so he deserves what he got? I don't get this and I didn't get it with George Floyd either. It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.


That's interesting. I don't think you're trying at all. Has anybody said it's justified? I think it's interesting that you continue to try to put words in peoples mouths. I really do. Both didn't deserve to die. Both probably could have prevented it by not resisting arrest. Both are being made martyrs on tv. But don't bring up that they are both not good people. We have to drive an agenda about police. And how we should let people that resist arrest run free. And militarized police can then go apprehend them. Zzzzzz
Ok, thank you I understand. But the whole resisting arrest thing / escalation by police thinking needs to change or officers need better training to deal with these situations so they don't end in a death of someone who is not armed. That is my point. To your last point I do agree with you in that the path we continue to travel as a country on this issue is a dangerous one because it allows for dangerous ideas to become mainstream. Police need better funding, not less. They need better support from the community, not less. But there needs to be a change in how policing is done because this ain't working.


I think the police are being so mislabeled we won't be able to hire the people necessary to properly train them.

My training for the police would make them more violent, by hands. I think we need to train them like the military. I think they should get hand combat training several times a year, if not monthly. I think there should be no quotas. Women, unless they prove themselves physically equal, should not be accepted. I think they should have real basic training to root out those not fit enough. I think mental health screening needs improvement.

We won't ever get good enough quality people though. Because we have presidents like Obama and congresspeople like Talib that ignore the other 28000 arrests everyday. That ignore they are protected by police forces. That try to drive an agenda. The police are the problem. Not the community. Because victimhood sells. Self accountability is irrelevant.
I agree with that, there should absolutely be personal accountability but at the same token there needs to be a path to rehabilitation and reacceptance into society. The stigma of the criminal record needs to be changed. I think if you do that, you'll have less repeat offenders.
Nope. Every single post you've made here indicates that you don't believe in personal accountability...

... and that is the crux of the issue in society today.

There is no personal accountability anymore. The only reason that kid resisted is because it's been encouraged... he has been taught that it doesn't matter what he does, that he can get away with it.

Where were the protests for the white woman from Pennsylvania riding with her husband in their car through North Carolina on I-95 on their way to a vacation in Florida. Fine upstanding young man, feels he's been disrespected because of a lane change pulls around to the passenger side and fires two shots at the woman...

This is on the interstate here in our state. That could have been you and your wife.

No personal accountability. Empowered to do whatever the **** they want without repercussion.

And you're all for it.
TheStorm
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Civilized said:


What does the woman who was tragically murdered along I-95 have to do with a cop accidentally killing a man she was trying to subdue, or with anything Hokie has said?
Civ with his usual Strawman appearance... where were you and your fifty posts about the innocent woman after it happened? where were your posts about the mass shootings in Virginia Beach? three separate mass shooting events in DC over the last six weeks? the mass shootings in Maryland? the Capital Hill Police officer that was killed recently? (although I do remember that you commented on the one that was killed a couple months ago)...

Why are any of those lives that were lost any less important than this kid's life?

Is it because that innocent woman wasn't resisting arrest? Nope. That can't be it.

You can't say that you support personal accountability and then not hold people responsible for their actions... this stuff isn't hard. It's as basic as it can be.

Treat people the way that you want to be treated in return and obey the basic laws and rules of common decency and **** like this just doesn't happen. Period.
caryking
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hokiewolf said:

pineknollshoresking said:


That's a lot of nothing... remember, Democrats control the cities where this stuff happens (for the most part). It is their hiring process, their tenure pay schedule, their policies that prohibit firing, and so...

De-escalating training is code word for "blame the police". If you would start from the premise of: the police want to do the right thing, then you may have a different opinion.

Let me draw a comparison to the same people. A doctor makes a mistake in surgery. We then get people who want to sue them for malpractice. If we start from the premise of: the doctors want to do the right thing, then we could mitigate the legal issues and probably wouldn't have such high health care cost.

I'm no dummy and I realize we have exceptions to the rule; however, those exception are probably far rarer than we might even think.

I do not believe, based on what I have read, that this female police officer, did this with any negative intent. So, I start with that premise... based on what I have read, she should not be charged as its an unfortunate result of the job.
That's an interesting premise and I've never thought of it that way. I've always looked at it as two people in conflict and the need to use techniques to try and de-escalate the situation so as to not provoke violent reaction. But I think you are right when the language is applied by those with political agendas rather than those like most of us just want to see change.

Great point though
Hokie, what I find interesting is:

  • Disenfranchised people being treated like martyrs when something tragic happens to them. They get pissed and do things, that I think you probably know is a problem (burning towns when things happen)
  • Society then fuels the martyrdom and the cycle begins
  • Storm brings up an example of what he thinks is bad behavior and ultimately tragic for another family
  • Civ then ask, what does that have to do with the Minneapolis shooting?

Well, both instances are tragic for the families. Both instances, based on Storms opinion, are a result of individual accountability. The glorification or maybe demonization of the Police officers (really all Police officers) actions and further outcry makes people like Storm (me too) question people's intent.

As you stated above, my premise on things/issues come from different perspective, that are interesting. This country needs to slow down the rhetoric! Unfortunately, I do not believe that will happen. I believe (no conspiracy theory) this is all part of a big plan to destabilize this country in order to remake it.
Civilized
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TheStorm said:

Civilized said:


What does the woman who was tragically murdered along I-95 have to do with a cop accidentally killing a man she was trying to subdue, or with anything Hokie has said?
Civ with his usual Strawman appearance... where were you and your fifty posts about the innocent woman after it happened? where were your posts about the mass shootings in Virginia Beach? three separate mass shooting events in DC over the last six weeks? the mass shootings in Maryland? the Capital Hill Police officer that was killed recently? (although I do remember that you commented on the one that was killed a couple months ago)...

Why are any of those lives that were lost any less important than this kid's life?

Is it because that innocent woman wasn't resisting arrest? Nope. That can't be it.

You can't say that you support personal accountability and then not hold people responsible for their actions... this stuff isn't hard. It's as basic as it can be.

Treat people the way that you want to be treated in return and obey the basic laws and rules of common decency and **** like this just doesn't happen. Period.

I still don't know what you're talking about.

A cop accidentally shooting and killing a man has nothing to do with personal responsibility.

You're acting like we can't hold criminals responsible for committing murder and also hold cops accountable for, and try to do everything we can to prevent cops from, killing American citizens at a higher rate than any other developed country in the world.

Like you say, this isn't hard.
caryking
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Civilized said:

TheStorm said:

Civilized said:


What does the woman who was tragically murdered along I-95 have to do with a cop accidentally killing a man she was trying to subdue, or with anything Hokie has said?
Civ with his usual Strawman appearance... where were you and your fifty posts about the innocent woman after it happened? where were your posts about the mass shootings in Virginia Beach? three separate mass shooting events in DC over the last six weeks? the mass shootings in Maryland? the Capital Hill Police officer that was killed recently? (although I do remember that you commented on the one that was killed a couple months ago)...

Why are any of those lives that were lost any less important than this kid's life?

Is it because that innocent woman wasn't resisting arrest? Nope. That can't be it.

You can't say that you support personal accountability and then not hold people responsible for their actions... this stuff isn't hard. It's as basic as it can be.

Treat people the way that you want to be treated in return and obey the basic laws and rules of common decency and **** like this just doesn't happen. Period.

I still don't know what you're talking about.

A cop accidentally shooting and killing a man has nothing to do with personal responsibility.

You're acting like we can't hold criminals responsible for committing murder and also hold cops accountable for, and try to do everything we can to prevent cops from, killing American citizens at a higher rate than any other developed country in the world.

Like you say, this isn't hard.
Civ, what is the likelihood the young man would be killed if he didn't resist arrest?
packgrad
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Civilized said:

TheStorm said:

hokiewolf said:

packgrad said:

hokiewolf said:

packgrad said:

hokiewolf said:

packgrad said:

hokiewolf said:

BBW12OG said:

Here is more on the guy who was shot. More information is coming out but at this point one of the warrants he skipped out on was for choking a woman and robbing her of $800 or so dollars. Yeah.... I am the one that pre-judged this kid.



What's the point?


It says it right in the headline.
I'm really trying to understand the point you two are making, I really am. Is it because he's wanted for a crime or has a past criminal history make his death more justified in your eyes? Does it make him subhuman so he deserves what he got? I don't get this and I didn't get it with George Floyd either. It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.


That's interesting. I don't think you're trying at all. Has anybody said it's justified? I think it's interesting that you continue to try to put words in peoples mouths. I really do. Both didn't deserve to die. Both probably could have prevented it by not resisting arrest. Both are being made martyrs on tv. But don't bring up that they are both not good people. We have to drive an agenda about police. And how we should let people that resist arrest run free. And militarized police can then go apprehend them. Zzzzzz
Ok, thank you I understand. But the whole resisting arrest thing / escalation by police thinking needs to change or officers need better training to deal with these situations so they don't end in a death of someone who is not armed. That is my point. To your last point I do agree with you in that the path we continue to travel as a country on this issue is a dangerous one because it allows for dangerous ideas to become mainstream. Police need better funding, not less. They need better support from the community, not less. But there needs to be a change in how policing is done because this ain't working.


I think the police are being so mislabeled we won't be able to hire the people necessary to properly train them.

My training for the police would make them more violent, by hands. I think we need to train them like the military. I think they should get hand combat training several times a year, if not monthly. I think there should be no quotas. Women, unless they prove themselves physically equal, should not be accepted. I think they should have real basic training to root out those not fit enough. I think mental health screening needs improvement.

We won't ever get good enough quality people though. Because we have presidents like Obama and congresspeople like Talib that ignore the other 28000 arrests everyday. That ignore they are protected by police forces. That try to drive an agenda. The police are the problem. Not the community. Because victimhood sells. Self accountability is irrelevant.
I agree with that, there should absolutely be personal accountability but at the same token there needs to be a path to rehabilitation and reacceptance into society. The stigma of the criminal record needs to be changed. I think if you do that, you'll have less repeat offenders.
Nope. Every single post you've made here indicates that you don't believe in personal accountability...

... and that is the crux of the issue in society today.

There is no personal accountability anymore. The only reason that kid resisted is because it's been encouraged... he has been taught that it doesn't matter what he does, that he can get away with it.

Where were the protests for the white woman from Pennsylvania riding with her husband in their car through North Carolina on I-95 on their way to a vacation in Florida. Fine upstanding young man, feels he's been disrespected because of a lane change pulls around to the passenger side and fires two shots at the woman...

This is on the interstate here in our state. That could have been you and your wife.

No personal accountability. Empowered to do whatever the **** they want without repercussion.

And you're all for it.

Hokie has told you what he's for you're obviously just not listening.

What does the woman who was tragically murdered along I-95 have to do with a cop accidentally killing a man she was trying to subdue, or with anything Hokie has said?


It just emphasizes faux outrage. You only "care" (message board "care". I doubt anybody on here is doing anything of substance to institute the change that is "so badly" needed) based on color if cnn tells you to. That's what it has to do with.
BBW12OG
How long do you want to ignore this user?
How many other countries have a Chicago, St. Louis, Baltimore, D.C. type crime? How many countries have "sanctuary cities" where MS-13 members are running the towns?

You speak like America has open season on black people.

Blacks make up 13% of the population but yet they are responsible for over 50% of all violent crimes.

Now...you do your own math and charts but quit conflating an issue out of context.
Civilized
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packgrad said:

Civilized said:

TheStorm said:

hokiewolf said:

packgrad said:

hokiewolf said:

packgrad said:

hokiewolf said:

packgrad said:

hokiewolf said:

BBW12OG said:

Here is more on the guy who was shot. More information is coming out but at this point one of the warrants he skipped out on was for choking a woman and robbing her of $800 or so dollars. Yeah.... I am the one that pre-judged this kid.



What's the point?


It says it right in the headline.
I'm really trying to understand the point you two are making, I really am. Is it because he's wanted for a crime or has a past criminal history make his death more justified in your eyes? Does it make him subhuman so he deserves what he got? I don't get this and I didn't get it with George Floyd either. It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.


That's interesting. I don't think you're trying at all. Has anybody said it's justified? I think it's interesting that you continue to try to put words in peoples mouths. I really do. Both didn't deserve to die. Both probably could have prevented it by not resisting arrest. Both are being made martyrs on tv. But don't bring up that they are both not good people. We have to drive an agenda about police. And how we should let people that resist arrest run free. And militarized police can then go apprehend them. Zzzzzz
Ok, thank you I understand. But the whole resisting arrest thing / escalation by police thinking needs to change or officers need better training to deal with these situations so they don't end in a death of someone who is not armed. That is my point. To your last point I do agree with you in that the path we continue to travel as a country on this issue is a dangerous one because it allows for dangerous ideas to become mainstream. Police need better funding, not less. They need better support from the community, not less. But there needs to be a change in how policing is done because this ain't working.


I think the police are being so mislabeled we won't be able to hire the people necessary to properly train them.

My training for the police would make them more violent, by hands. I think we need to train them like the military. I think they should get hand combat training several times a year, if not monthly. I think there should be no quotas. Women, unless they prove themselves physically equal, should not be accepted. I think they should have real basic training to root out those not fit enough. I think mental health screening needs improvement.

We won't ever get good enough quality people though. Because we have presidents like Obama and congresspeople like Talib that ignore the other 28000 arrests everyday. That ignore they are protected by police forces. That try to drive an agenda. The police are the problem. Not the community. Because victimhood sells. Self accountability is irrelevant.
I agree with that, there should absolutely be personal accountability but at the same token there needs to be a path to rehabilitation and reacceptance into society. The stigma of the criminal record needs to be changed. I think if you do that, you'll have less repeat offenders.
Nope. Every single post you've made here indicates that you don't believe in personal accountability...

... and that is the crux of the issue in society today.

There is no personal accountability anymore. The only reason that kid resisted is because it's been encouraged... he has been taught that it doesn't matter what he does, that he can get away with it.

Where were the protests for the white woman from Pennsylvania riding with her husband in their car through North Carolina on I-95 on their way to a vacation in Florida. Fine upstanding young man, feels he's been disrespected because of a lane change pulls around to the passenger side and fires two shots at the woman...

This is on the interstate here in our state. That could have been you and your wife.

No personal accountability. Empowered to do whatever the **** they want without repercussion.

And you're all for it.

Hokie has told you what he's for you're obviously just not listening.

What does the woman who was tragically murdered along I-95 have to do with a cop accidentally killing a man she was trying to subdue, or with anything Hokie has said?


It just emphasizes faux outrage. You only "care" (message board "care". I doubt anybody on here is doing anything of substance to institute the change that is "so badly" needed) based on color if cnn tells you to. That's what it has to do with.

Why do you think that the right corners the market on rational analysis while the left just brainlessly follows MSM edicts?

We all self-select what media we consume to a certain extent, but that's implicit and true of all of us.

I don't put you in a right-wing box and I don't assume that you mindlessly follow the podcasts you listen to or the New York Post or Washington Examiner or Fox News or whatever media you consume.

Why don't you afford me the same courtesy?
Civilized
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BBW12OG said:

How many other countries have a Chicago, St. Louis, Baltimore, D.C. type crime? How many countries have "sanctuary cities" where MS-13 members are running the towns?

You speak like America has open season on black people.

Blacks make up 13% of the population but yet they are responsible for over 50% of all violent crimes.

Now...you do your own math and charts but quit conflating an issue out of context.

I don't know what you're talking about either. You and Storm are all over the place this morning.

Nothing you've just said has anything to do with a police officer accidentally shooting and killing another American.
TheStorm
How long do you want to ignore this user?
And as far as comparing what goes on in other countries v. what is currently going on here... in those other countries people accept and know that the police aren't going to *****foot around if you do something wrong.

I used to travel extensively to both Europe and South America for work in a past life and it was commonplace to see their police toting machine guns in airports, subways, train stations, etc... I think they call it a deterent.

Hell, I remember my wife and I entering Italy on a train from Switzerland... and soon after we crossed the border the first contact we had was the barrel of a machine gun coming through the pocket door into our seating compartment for the passport check. They take your passport with them and you don't ask them when they are bringing it back. They bring it back when they are good and ready. When you stay in a hotel they keep your passport at the front desk.

Here in this country we ask our police officers to do their job (which most of you forget is mostly to protect us and keep us safe by enforcing and upholding our laws) with one hand tied behind their backs... now the lefties think they can do it with both hands cuffed behind their backs - while they shelter those that don't take "personal accountability" (there's that pesky phrase again) for their actions.

It's a shame that kid had to lose his life and no one is disputing that and that police officer will pay the consequences of her actions for that. But it never would have happened if the kid had not resisted to begin with.

She was a 26 year veteran of police duty... has she been out just randomly shooting black men throughout her career? or white, yellow, brown or red for that matter...
caryking
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Civilized said:

packgrad said:

Civilized said:

TheStorm said:

hokiewolf said:

packgrad said:

hokiewolf said:

packgrad said:

hokiewolf said:

packgrad said:

hokiewolf said:

BBW12OG said:

Here is more on the guy who was shot. More information is coming out but at this point one of the warrants he skipped out on was for choking a woman and robbing her of $800 or so dollars. Yeah.... I am the one that pre-judged this kid.



What's the point?


It says it right in the headline.
I'm really trying to understand the point you two are making, I really am. Is it because he's wanted for a crime or has a past criminal history make his death more justified in your eyes? Does it make him subhuman so he deserves what he got? I don't get this and I didn't get it with George Floyd either. It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.


That's interesting. I don't think you're trying at all. Has anybody said it's justified? I think it's interesting that you continue to try to put words in peoples mouths. I really do. Both didn't deserve to die. Both probably could have prevented it by not resisting arrest. Both are being made martyrs on tv. But don't bring up that they are both not good people. We have to drive an agenda about police. And how we should let people that resist arrest run free. And militarized police can then go apprehend them. Zzzzzz
Ok, thank you I understand. But the whole resisting arrest thing / escalation by police thinking needs to change or officers need better training to deal with these situations so they don't end in a death of someone who is not armed. That is my point. To your last point I do agree with you in that the path we continue to travel as a country on this issue is a dangerous one because it allows for dangerous ideas to become mainstream. Police need better funding, not less. They need better support from the community, not less. But there needs to be a change in how policing is done because this ain't working.


I think the police are being so mislabeled we won't be able to hire the people necessary to properly train them.

My training for the police would make them more violent, by hands. I think we need to train them like the military. I think they should get hand combat training several times a year, if not monthly. I think there should be no quotas. Women, unless they prove themselves physically equal, should not be accepted. I think they should have real basic training to root out those not fit enough. I think mental health screening needs improvement.

We won't ever get good enough quality people though. Because we have presidents like Obama and congresspeople like Talib that ignore the other 28000 arrests everyday. That ignore they are protected by police forces. That try to drive an agenda. The police are the problem. Not the community. Because victimhood sells. Self accountability is irrelevant.
I agree with that, there should absolutely be personal accountability but at the same token there needs to be a path to rehabilitation and reacceptance into society. The stigma of the criminal record needs to be changed. I think if you do that, you'll have less repeat offenders.
Nope. Every single post you've made here indicates that you don't believe in personal accountability...

... and that is the crux of the issue in society today.

There is no personal accountability anymore. The only reason that kid resisted is because it's been encouraged... he has been taught that it doesn't matter what he does, that he can get away with it.

Where were the protests for the white woman from Pennsylvania riding with her husband in their car through North Carolina on I-95 on their way to a vacation in Florida. Fine upstanding young man, feels he's been disrespected because of a lane change pulls around to the passenger side and fires two shots at the woman...

This is on the interstate here in our state. That could have been you and your wife.

No personal accountability. Empowered to do whatever the **** they want without repercussion.

And you're all for it.

Hokie has told you what he's for you're obviously just not listening.

What does the woman who was tragically murdered along I-95 have to do with a cop accidentally killing a man she was trying to subdue, or with anything Hokie has said?


It just emphasizes faux outrage. You only "care" (message board "care". I doubt anybody on here is doing anything of substance to institute the change that is "so badly" needed) based on color if cnn tells you to. That's what it has to do with.

Why do you think that the right corners the market on rational analysis while the left just brainlessly follows MSM edicts?

We all self-select what media we consume to a certain extent, but that's implicit and true of all of us.

I don't put you in a right-wing box and I don't assume that you mindlessly follow the podcasts you listen to or the New York Post or Washington Examiner or Fox News or whatever media you consume.

Why don't you afford me the same courtesy?
Civ, answer my question above...

What's the likelihood the young man would be killed if he didn't resist arrest?

You should be able to give an opinion without needing any media (actually, you don't need statistics) to assist with your thinking...
 
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