GoPack2008 said:

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caryking said:

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Civilized said:

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SupplyChainPack said:

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See the bar analogy above to understand why your demand for evidence is problematic here.

If you think about it for awhile, you will probably begin to understand.

(Also, there are numerous evidences - you just refuse to accept them.)

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LOL.

If there are 'numerous evidences' why didn't Trump's team produce them when compelled to do so by the courts?

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So what?

I'm just curious as to why people do not support an ID to vote. Fo the life of me, what can we do, that is meaningful, without an ID?

We have, based on the framers, of the constitution, God Given right (some people may call this natural rights) and we still have to show an ID to buy a firearm. The second amendment does "NOT" give us the right to have a firearm; rather, it recognizes the God Given right and states the government will not infringe upon this rights.

With that said, a God Given right has been usurped by a tyrannical government and took it away, freely... Why then can we not require someone to show an ID to vote?

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I can assure you that the framers didn't see any rights as being granted by God.

What actual problem does voter ID solve?

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You'd be totally wrong about that.

(Without even taking the warmups off...)

Read the words below carefully and slowly, and let us know if you recognize them from anywhere...

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Voting by mail is not secure. Here is an example why....





https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8468231/Republican-sheriff-running-Congress-claims-Texas-postal-worker-threw-campaign-mailers.html

SupplyChainPack said:

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You'd be totally wrong about that.

(Without even taking the warmups off...)

Read the words below carefully and slowly, and let us know if you recognize them from anywhere...

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

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Founding fathers included deists and freethinkers/atheists but most of those that were deists, especially Jefferson and Franklin, had a very cerebral, depersonalized brand to their religion. They were VERY careful to not make religion be a divisive issue in their work and felt strongly that religion was a personal and private relationship between a man and his god.

Jefferson and Franklin considered these rights to be existential and often referenced them as being derived from 'nature' and initially wrote that phrase differently; Adams' Puritan influence and Congress' input led to the eventual "...by their Creator."

The crafting of the Declaration is an incredible testament to balancing and honoring reason and rational thought and also the respect for a higher power that most founders possessed.

It also set the the tone, which we should all be reminded of frequently, that our government accommodates both the deists and the atheists among us and that religion shouldn't be a central or divisive force in public, civic discourse.

Nah. They almost all of them were Christian. Almost all Protestant. Some were even ordained ministers.

GoPack2008 said:

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What actual problem does voter ID solve?

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My thoughts exactly. I'm not fundamentally opposed to voter ID but I don't understand the fervor behind it or the need to make it such an urgent issue compared to so many other things.

SupplyChainPack said:

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Nah. They almost all of them were Christian. Almost all Protestant. Some were even ordained ministers.

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The irony of this conversation is that the founders' incredible work means that it doesn't matter what the actual breakdown was. They built in room for Christians, Christian deists, non-Christian deists, atheists, and other religions such that there is always both freedom to practice (or not) and freedom from the church influencing the government.

But regarding "almost all" of the founders being Christian, it's way more complex than that. Brittanica breaks down some of the nuance including the common misconception that "deist" is a synonym for "Christian."

"Although orthodox Christians participated at every stage of the new republic, Deism influenced a majority of the Founders. The movement opposed barriers to moral improvement and to social justice. It stood for rational inquiry, for skepticism about dogma and mystery, and for religious toleration. Many of its adherents advocated universal education, freedom of the press, and separation of church and state. If the nation owes much to the Judeo-Christian tradition, it is also indebted to Deism, a movement of reason and equality that influenced the Founding Fathers to embrace liberal political ideals remarkable for their time."

https://www.britannica.com/topic/The-Founding-Fathers-Deism-and-Christianity-1272214

Probably stating the obvious, but The Constitution is free of religion except where it prohibits the government from endorsing one or where it allows people to practice any one they want. So, when talking about rights (if that's the discussion), I'm not sure how the founder's religious beliefs matter.

dogplasma said:

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Probably stating the obvious, but The Constitution is free of religion except where it prohibits the government from endorsing one or where it allows people to practice any one they want. So, when talking about rights (if that's the discussion), I'm not sure how the founder's religious beliefs matter.

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Correct. That some had religious beliefs is a different question than whether they viewed certain rights as being god-given.

From Ben Ginsberg:

" The president's words make his and the Republican Party's rhetoric look less like sincere concern and more like transactional hypocrisy designed to provide an electoral advantage. And they come as Republicans trying to make their cases in courts must deal with the basic truth that four decades of dedicated investigation have produced only isolated incidents of election fraud.

These are painful conclusions for me to reach. Before retiring from law practice last month, I spent 38 years in the GOP's legal trenches. I was part of the 1990s redistricting that ended 40 years of Democratic control and brought 30 years of GOP successes in Congress and state legislatures. I played a central role in the 2000 Florida recount and several dozen Senate, House and state contests. I served as counsel to all three Republican national party committees and represented four of the past six Republican presidential nominees (including, through my law firm, Trump 2020)."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/09/08/republicans-have-insufficient-evidence-call-elections-rigged-fraudulent/%3foutputType=amp

Looks like the Republicans are abusing the mail-in voting plan

Those cheating cheaters...

Should be fine.....


"Public Interest Legal Foundation Identifies 349,773 Dead People on Voter Rolls Nationwide"



https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/stacey-lennox/2020/09/17/public-interest-legal-foundation-identifies-349773-dead-people-on-voter-rolls-nationwide-n938540

North Carolina partisan board of elections following other states in opening up the state to ballot harvesting and full blown massive voter fraud.

We need to be paying attention to what our state board of elections is doing.


https://firstinfreedomdaily.com/twitter-censors-nc-lawmakers-for-tweeting-about-emerging-ncsbe-scandal-implicating-governor-roy-cooper-and-ag-josh-stein/

Republicans throwing hissy fits about mail in ballots is so dumb. It's not even partisan. It's just stupid.

There's zero evidence their concern is warranted and yet they're acting like it's an existential threat to democracy.

Are you sure?

*US Postal Service investigating trays of mail, absentee ballots found in Wisconsin ditch"


https://www.foxnews.com/politics/mail-absentee-ballots-found-wisconsin-ditch

Civilized said:

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Republicans throwing hissy fits about mail in ballots is so dumb. It's not even partisan. It's just stupid.

There's zero evidence their concern is warranted and yet they're acting like it's an existential threat to democracy.

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Republicans have ALWAYS voted by mail more than Dems. They want to keep it that way. Change the rules to fit you, makes for a great democracy! Take Merritt Garland as an example, a Moderate who should be in the Supreme Court.


Republicans quietly push mail-in voting despite Trump claims

How the Trump Campaign Pushes Voting by Mail on Facebook

The Donald and the first lady vote by mail and prior to going to Washington, Mike P. and the 2nd lady vote by mail, Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner vote by mail when they can remember to send them in or in on time, Kayleigh McEnany vote by mail as does Bill Barr, Betsy DeVos, Larry Kudlow, and Wilbur Ross. RNC Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel repeatedly voted by mail and then she sued CA for allowing others to do so. Campaign Manager Brad Parscale voted by mail!

Have your cake and eat it too.

For those who don't believe that Democrats are using mail-in ballots to cheat on a large scale and systematic way, you need to take a few minutes to view this:

"

Minnesota law limits the number of absentee ballots that a person other than the voter can have to three.

The Project Veritas investigation found three locations inside Ward 6, a ballot harvesting triangle, where the scheme operates: the Riverside Plaza apartments, the senior citizen community at Horn Towers, and the Minneapolis Elections and Voter Services office at 980 E. Hennepin Ave., which also functions as a voting location and ballot drop-off site.

Hennepin County Attorney Jeff Wojciechowski told a Project Veritas journalist on a recorded line the ballot harvesting conduct described to him was: 'Illegal, and we will be investigating.'"

https://pjmedia.com/jchristianadams/2020/09/27/project-veritas-strikes-again-voter-fraud-aids-rep-ilhan-omar-n973527

SupplyChainPack said:

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"

Minnesota law limits the number of absentee ballots that a person other than the voter can have to three.

The Project Veritas investigation found three locations inside Ward 6, a ballot harvesting triangle, where the scheme operates: the Riverside Plaza apartments, the senior citizen community at Horn Towers, and the Minneapolis Elections and Voter Services office at 980 E. Hennepin Ave., which also functions as a voting location and ballot drop-off site.

Hennepin County Attorney Jeff Wojciechowski told a Project Veritas journalist on a recorded line the ballot harvesting conduct described to him was: 'Illegal, and we will be investigating.'"

https://pjmedia.com/jchristianadams/2020/09/27/project-veritas-strikes-again-voter-fraud-aids-rep-ilhan-omar-n973527

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I mean one off examples don't prove anything other than exceptions to the rule. Or have we already forgotten how a rogue man acted in our own great state?

https://www.npr.org/2019/07/30/746800630/north-carolina-gop-operative-faces-new-felony-charges-that-allege-ballot-fraud

This is what needs to be happening. Investigators need to be looking for it and call it out wherever they find it. If we keep a sharp eye we can eliminate a lot of the fraud... hopefully. Minimize it and hope the election is not gnat's ass tight in states with the most egregious issues.

Justin Levitt, a professor at Loyola Law School who tracks voting rights litigation, said the GOP fraud argument "has not found much purchase in the courts."

"When actual judges are reviewing cases, they demand whether you're progressive or conservative actual facts," he said. "And the courts have not been kind to the unsupported claims of, 'There's going to be fraud,' all-caps, exclamation points everywhere."

Courts view GOP fraud claims skeptically as Democrats score key legal victories over mail voting
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts-voting-fraud-claims-republicans/2020/09/28/ceff1184-fda2-11ea-b555-4d71a9254f4b_story.html

"All-caps, exclamation points everywhere?"

It's like this guy is a lurker on IPS or something.

Civilized said:

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Justin Levitt, a professor at Loyola Law School who tracks voting rights litigation, said the GOP fraud argument "has not found much purchase in the courts."

"When actual judges are reviewing cases, they demand whether you're progressive or conservative actual facts," he said. "And the courts have not been kind to the unsupported claims of, 'There's going to be fraud,' all-caps, exclamation points everywhere."

Courts view GOP fraud claims skeptically as Democrats score key legal victories over mail voting
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts-voting-fraud-claims-republicans/2020/09/28/ceff1184-fda2-11ea-b555-4d71a9254f4b_story.html

"All-caps, exclamation points everywhere?"

It's like this guy is a lurker on IPS or something.

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Just because our federal courts are loaded with partisan hack "judges" - who are anything but legitimate judges- doesn't mean that substantial voter fraud isn't happening.

I will refer you to the Minnesota case above.

Hahaha. Agree on all counts.

statefan91 said:

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Looks like the Republicans are abusing the mail-in voting plan

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Them doing it ain't a problem! Cook the book. If anyone is going to cheat...

Hanging chad, Russia, anything...

What do you think those say? Three times as many "requested" from Democrats. Five times as many returned and "accepted" from Democrats.

packgrad said:

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Hahaha. Agree on all counts.

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Fantasy 2024 ticket of of Nikki "Angelface" Haley and Tulsi?

They'd have the American male vote covered for sure.

Nothing to see here.....





Remember, if you take the time to watch this.... what you're seeing can't be real, because it's just a crazy conspiracy theory.

Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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Hahaha. Agree on all counts.

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Fantasy 2024 ticket of of Nikki "Angelface" Haley and Tulsi?

They'd have the American male vote covered for sure.

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Lol. I'm in.

Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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Hahaha. Agree on all counts.

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Fantasy 2024 ticket of of Nikki "Angelface" Haley and Tulsi?

They'd have the American male vote covered for sure.

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We can and have done much worse