Mail in voting-thoughts?

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SupplyChainPack
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In reply to Civilized • 12:02p, 8/23/20
Civilized said:
SupplyChainPack said:
That's the beauty of cheating by mail - it's next to impossible to prove.

How do election officials know that Aunt Sally, who is suffering from dementia, didn't really fill out that ballot? How do they know that John Smith, who moved to Fl 5 years ago but is still on the voter roles in his old state, didn't actually fill out that ballot that was delivered to his old address, but the guy who lived there filled it out for him?

That's just scratching the surface. There are numerous ways that somebody who is Godless and dishonest could and would commit voter fraud in a large scale mail in scheme

And let's face it, liberal Democrats are Godless, dishonest people. They WILL cheat in an election in which the opportunity to cheat is as easy as picking wildflowers in July.


And even if it does, why is that potential fraud more likely to result in favor for one candidate over another? Isn't it roughly equally likely that wayward ballots wind up in the hands of a Republican than of a Democrat?



That's like saying Mother Theresa and Hitler both have opportunity to commit mass murder and get away with it.

On the one hand, you really don't have to worry about it, on the other there no doubt that a great deal of blood will be shed.

Those who are Godless, dishonest, and amoral will tend to cheat, when given an easy opportunity. It's just a matter of common sense.
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cowboypack02
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In reply to Civilized • 12:42p, 8/23/20
Civilized said:
SupplyChainPack said:
That's the beauty of cheating by mail - it's next to impossible to prove.

How do election officials know that Aunt Sally, who is suffering from dementia, didn't really fill out that ballot? How do they know that John Smith, who moved to Fl 5 years ago but is still on the voter roles in his old state, didn't actually fill out that ballot that was delivered to his old address, but the guy who lived there filled it out for him?

That's just scratching the surface. There are numerous ways that somebody who is Godless and dishonest could and would commit voter fraud in a large scale mail in scheme

And let's face it, liberal Democrats are Godless, dishonest people. They WILL cheat in an election in which the opportunity to cheat is as easy as picking wildflowers in July.

Voter fraud isn't mild mischief, it's a felony.

Aunt Sally's niece who's visiting is really willing to commit a felony and check the Biden box to increase Biden's chances of winning by some tiny increment?

The guy who now lives in John Smith's old house and who has an equal chance of being a Republican, is willing to commit a felony to add one more vote for Biden?

And this can happen over and over and over again, all these felonies, as part of a concerted effort to get Biden elected?

That makes sense to you?

And even if it does, why is that potential fraud more likely to result in favor for one candidate over another? Isn't it roughly equally likely that wayward ballots wind up in the hands of a Republican than of a Democrat?

And besides, what you've described isn't 'on a large scale'. That's house by house.

How does mail-in fraud get committed on a consequential scale? You've said there are 'numerous ways' but didn't name any and there have never been any evidence of them happening before.


Jails and Prisons are full of people who didn't think they'd get caught committing a crime.
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Civilized
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In reply to cowboypack02 • 1:01p, 8/23/20
cowboypack02 said:


Jails and Prisons are full of people who didn't think they'd get caught committing a crime.

So you think the risk/reward is there for tens of thousands of people to commit a felony and commit voter fraud? When the risk is you get convicted of a felony and the reward is you contribute in an almost immeasurably small way to Biden maybe getting elected?

I'll answer for you. That's ridiculous. You would have a very hard time finding ten people that would do it, much less tens of thousands.

It's like the people out there talking about how university and athletic administrators are playing politics when they go online or cancel the season (B1G/Pac-12).

Their jobs and families and careers are impacted by the lost revenue from cancelling in-person classes and football seasons. There's a massive personal and professional financial incentive for them to keep kids on campus and also to play football this fall, but people think they're cancelling semesters and seasons because they want Biden in the White House.

It's preposterous.
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wilmwolf
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1:21p, 8/23/20
This discussion is always funny to me, and I always post something similar to what I'm about to post.

Outside of this discussion, pretty much everyone here would admit that every law in this country gets broken all day every day. There is nothing sacred. Murder, rape, pedophilia, bank robbery, drunk driving, identity theft, insurance fraud, Medicare fraud, telephone scams, bad checks, wire fraud, tax evasion, and on and on and on and on. We all know someone or of someone who has committed a serious crime, and there are probably people here guilty of various crimes.

Also outside of this discussion, pretty much everyone here would admit that politicians could, can, and have done anything to get elected. Anything. Dirty money, bribes, slander, whatever it takes. Most of us think that the majority of politicians are crooks regardless of party affiliation, only out for lining their own pockets and pushing their own agendas. We overlook our party doing it, but are quick to point out the other party any time they get busted breaking the law, taking money, gerrymandering, and all the other nefarious things that politicians do.

But voter fraud? Oh no, that doesn't happen. People will steal your grandma's social security, but they won't take her vote. Politicians will do anything to get and keep power, but not that. That's sacred. We will believe that foreign powers screw with our elections, but people won't commit voter fraud. Nope, that's a crime!

I don't put it past anyone, any party, to commit voter fraud. If done smartly it's a crime that can be virtually impossible to be caught doing. Maybe it's one vote, maybe it's ten, maybe it's a hundred, can we really say those don't matter after the elections we've witnessed in our lifetimes? Is it going to be widespread, is one party going to do it more than the other, will it affect the outcome? I'm not saying any of those things. But to think it never happens is obtuse.
Just a guy on the sunshine squad.
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statefan91
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In reply to wilmwolf • 1:55p, 8/23/20
I think the problem is that all of the laws and things mentioned above is that there's copious amounts of proof those things occur. There's not really much by way of voter fraud statistics.
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Civilized
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In reply to statefan91 • 2:28p, 8/23/20
statefan91 said:
I think the problem is that all of the laws and things mentioned above is that there's copious amounts of proof those things occur. There's not really much by way of voter fraud statistics.

Exactly.

I don't think anyone is saying it doesn't ever happen. In a country with 15x million potential voters someone, somewhere has done something nefarious. 100% likelihood of that.

What's in question is whether the system can be rigged to scale fraud and change major election outcomes, especially at the national level.

There's no evidence that voter fraud has ever been successfully scaled in this country.
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wilmwolf
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In reply to statefan91 • 2:33p, 8/23/20
Eh. The types of voter fraud that would be easiest to commit are the type that would be difficult to detect. If someone casts a vote in my name, I will know it, but if someone casts a vote for my 88 year old invalid neighbor, who would every know, what study would ever show that? Common sense and an understanding of human nature says it happens more than any study shows. With all the dirty things that happen in politics and elections, there's just no way it doesn't happen. And with the close elections we've had just in our lifetimes, it's silly to think that it couldn't influence the outcome. Does it? Probably not. But it could.
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statefan91
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In reply to wilmwolf • 2:44p, 8/23/20
Ok - so it's definitely a huge problem but we also don't have any way to prove it is what we're saying here?
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wilmwolf
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In reply to statefan91 • 2:46p, 8/23/20
statefan91 said:
Ok - so it's definitely a huge problem but we also don't have any way to prove it is what we're saying here?
Please quote where in my posts I said it was a huge problem. I'll hang up and listen.
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statefan91
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In reply to wilmwolf • 4:24p, 8/23/20
wilmwolf80 said:
statefan91 said:
Ok - so it's definitely a huge problem but we also don't have any way to prove it is what we're saying here?
Please quote where in my posts I said it was a huge problem. I'll hang up and listen.


If it's not a huge problem then you support mail-in voting?
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wilmwolf
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In reply to statefan91 • 4:51p, 8/23/20
statefan91 said:
wilmwolf80 said:
statefan91 said:
Ok - so it's definitely a huge problem but we also don't have any way to prove it is what we're saying here?
Please quote where in my posts I said it was a huge problem. I'll hang up and listen.


If it's not a huge problem then you support mail-in voting?


I already expressed my thoughts on this year's election red herring previously in this thread. Nothing I've posted today has anything to do with mail in voting, only about the ridiculous idea that voter fraud is the only crime in the US that nobody commits.
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lumberpack5
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6:07p, 8/23/20
Adult children have been voting for their parents and grandparents for decades. Adults have steered their children on whom to vote for for decades. For every Democrat prowling the nursing home for old people votes that is a Republican doing the same. It's simply not the problem that it's made out to be because most voter "fraud" is going to cancel itself out.

Real voter fraud can occur with rigging machines and other electronic or digital forms of voting.

However the most insidious form of voter fraud in the US is dark money and a system that forces an under educated public to attempt to figure out what is truth and what is a lie.
I like the athletic type
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lumberpack5
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In reply to wilmwolf • 6:10p, 8/23/20
wilmwolf80 said:
Eh. The types of voter fraud that would be easiest to commit are the type that would be difficult to detect. If someone casts a vote in my name, I will know it, but if someone casts a vote for my 88 year old invalid neighbor, who would every know, what study would ever show that? Common sense and an understanding of human nature says it happens more than any study shows. With all the dirty things that happen in politics and elections, there's just no way it doesn't happen. And with the close elections we've had just in our lifetimes, it's silly to think that it couldn't influence the outcome. Does it? Probably not. But it could.
That is part of the American system.

You should have got to the old lady first.



On a more serious note my father use to take old Republican ladies to the polls. He did it for years and he was a DEMOCRAT. I said Dad, what the hell are you doing. He said "son if we can't beat a few old ladies we don't deserve to win".

I miss that America.
I like the athletic type
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SupplyChainPack
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In reply to Civilized • 7:42p, 8/23/20
Civilized said:
cowboypack02 said:


Jails and Prisons are full of people who didn't think they'd get caught committing a crime.

So you think the risk/reward is there for tens of thousands of people to commit a felony and commit voter fraud? When the risk is you get convicted of a felony and the reward is you contribute in an almost immeasurably small way to Biden maybe getting elected?

I'll answer for you. That's ridiculous. You would have a very hard time finding ten people that would do it, much less tens of thousands.

It's like the people out there talking about how university and athletic administrators are playing politics when they go online or cancel the season (B1G/Pac-12).

Their jobs and families and careers are impacted by the lost revenue from cancelling in-person classes and football seasons. There's a massive personal and professional financial incentive for them to keep kids on campus and also to play football this fall, but people think they're cancelling semesters and seasons because they want Biden in the White House.

It's preposterous.


First of all, tens of thousands of Godless Democrats lying and cheating wouldn't be surprising in the least. Rather, it would merely be a reflection of how they conduct their lives. Why would they suspend that behavior for an election?

Second, you don't need tens of thousands to participate, but simply a good nucleolus of crooked election officials and volunteers.

Dems can come up with that with their eyes closed.
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Civilized
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In reply to SupplyChainPack • 9:20p, 8/23/20
SupplyChainPack said:

First of all, tens of thousands of Godless Democrats lying and cheating wouldn't be surprising in the least. Rather, it would merely be a reflection of how they conduct their lives. Why would they suspend that behavior for an election?

Second, you don't need tens of thousands to participate, but simply a good nucleolus of crooked election officials and volunteers.

Dems can come up with that with their eyes closed.

Godless Republicans lying and cheating?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-north-carolina/north-carolina-republican-operative-charged-in-election-fraud-scheme-idUSKCN1QG2FS
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SupplyChainPack
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10:21p, 8/23/20
You know that Mark Harris was cleared of any wrong doing don't you?

https://firstinfreedomdaily.com/da-clears-mark-harris-of-wrongdoing-in-notorious-9th-district-electoral-fraud-case/
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cowboypack02
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In reply to Civilized • 8:02a, 8/24/20
Civilized said:
cowboypack02 said:


Jails and Prisons are full of people who didn't think they'd get caught committing a crime.

So you think the risk/reward is there for tens of thousands of people to commit a felony and commit voter fraud? When the risk is you get convicted of a felony and the reward is you contribute in an almost immeasurably small way to Biden maybe getting elected?

I'll answer for you. That's ridiculous. You would have a very hard time finding ten people that would do it, much less tens of thousands.

It's like the people out there talking about how university and athletic administrators are playing politics when they go online or cancel the season (B1G/Pac-12).

Their jobs and families and careers are impacted by the lost revenue from cancelling in-person classes and football seasons. There's a massive personal and professional financial incentive for them to keep kids on campus and also to play football this fall, but people think they're cancelling semesters and seasons because they want Biden in the White House.

It's preposterous.
Your right Civilized....its just preposterous that fraud happens.....

https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/search?state=NC


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Civilized
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In reply to cowboypack02 • 9:41a, 8/24/20
cowboypack02 said:
Your right Civilized....its just preposterous that fraud happens.....

https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/search?state=NC

You're so myopic, and you're proving my point. It IS preposterous that it happens on a large scale.

You've just identified 32 cases involving 72 individuals. Dating back to 1986. An average of around 2 people per year in the state.

That seem widespread to you? That seem like it's going to skew elections?
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cowboypack02
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In reply to Civilized • 11:18a, 8/24/20
Civilized said:
cowboypack02 said:
Your right Civilized....its just preposterous that fraud happens.....

https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/search?state=NC

You're so myopic, and you're proving my point. It IS preposterous that it happens on a large scale.

You've just identified 32 cases involving 72 individuals. Dating back to 1986. An average of around 2 people per year in the state.

That seem widespread to you? That seem like it's going to skew elections?
So you didn't bother to look at the national cases...gotcha.

Lets extrapolate those numbers since you only looked at NC.

Using the same numbers as NC we have had approximately 1600 cases of voter fraud that involves 3600 people since 1986. To drill down slightly further since we only have elections every other year there have been 18 election years since 1986. This means that we have seen an average of 88.8 cases of fraud per election cycle....

That isn't large scale to you?

We can really have some fun with numbers here if you want...

There are 665280 police and sheriff patrol officers in the US as of may 2019 according to the US department of labor and statistics.

In 2019 there were 1004 people fatally shot by police with 235 of those people being black. This doesn't take into account any type of armed/unarmed or justified vs non justified fatalities at all.

There are mass riots in almost every major city over the actions of .0353232% of police and my guess is that its alot lower than that because the 235 takes into account justified killings, but i didn't want you to think i was skewing the numbers at all


According to you in the George Floyd thread we have a problem with the police when only .0353232% of police are involved in the death of a black person but an average of 88.8 cases of election fraud isnt an issue?

Can you help me out there?



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Civilized
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In reply to cowboypack02 • 1:34p, 8/24/20
cowboypack02 said:
Civilized said:
cowboypack02 said:
Your right Civilized....its just preposterous that fraud happens.....

https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/search?state=NC

You're so myopic, and you're proving my point. It IS preposterous that it happens on a large scale.

You've just identified 32 cases involving 72 individuals. Dating back to 1986. An average of around 2 people per year in the state.

That seem widespread to you? That seem like it's going to skew elections?
So you didn't bother to look at the national cases...gotcha.

Lets extrapolate those numbers since you only looked at NC.

Using the same numbers as NC we have had approximately 1600 cases of voter fraud that involves 3600 people since 1986. To drill down slightly further since we only have elections every other year there have been 18 election years since 1986. This means that we have seen an average of 88.8 cases of fraud per election cycle....

That isn't large scale to you?

We can really have some fun with numbers here if you want...

There are 665280 police and sheriff patrol officers in the US as of may 2019 according to the US department of labor and statistics.

In 2019 there were 1004 people fatally shot by police with 235 of those people being black. This doesn't take into account any type of armed/unarmed or justified vs non justified fatalities at all.

There are mass riots in almost every major city over the actions of .0353232% of police and my guess is that its alot lower than that because the 235 takes into account justified killings, but i didn't want you to think i was skewing the numbers at all


According to you in the George Floyd thread we have a problem with the police when only .0353232% of police are involved in the death of a black person but an average of 88.8 cases of election fraud isnt an issue?

Can you help me out there?

No, 88 per cycle isn't large scale. There are 7 million registered voters in NC.
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SupplyChainPack
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5:24p, 8/24/20
How many tens of thousands of times do you think that people actually exceed the speed limit per actual traffic citation issued?
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PackBacker07
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In reply to SupplyChainPack • 5:34p, 8/24/20
What about the Godless Republicans who lie and cheat?
Y'all means ALL.
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Civilized
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In reply to SupplyChainPack • 5:52p, 8/24/20
If voter fraud was such a massive problem before, why weren't Republicans concerned about it then?
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SupplyChainPack
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In reply to PackBacker07 • 6:02p, 8/24/20
Nobody should be able to get away with casting fraudulent votes, regardless of party affiliation.

It just happens to a substantially greater problem with Godless Democrats , who have no foundational morality to instruct them that lying, cheating, and gaming the system are wrong. Rather, theirs is a morality of "what can I get away with".

In short, every effort should be made to ensure that the democratic part of our democratic republic functions with the highest integrity, continually working to reduce/eliminate the opportunity for dishonesty in the electoral process.

That any one would oppose this is puzzling - unless you understand their motivations.
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SupplyChainPack
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In reply to Civilized • 6:08p, 8/24/20
Civilized said:
If voter fraud was such a massive problem before, why weren't Republicans concerned about it then?


There have been efforts to curtail voter fraud for decades. These have been ceaselessly fought with all of the rigor that Democrats can muster - which is rather substantial.
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Civilized
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In reply to SupplyChainPack • 6:10p, 8/24/20
SupplyChainPack said:
Nobody should be able to get away with casting fraudulent votes, regardless of party affiliation.

It just happens to a substantially greater problem with Godless Democrats , who have no foundational morality to instruct them that lying, cheating, and gaming the system are wrong. Rather, theirs is a morality of "what can I get away with".

Link?
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Civilized
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In reply to SupplyChainPack • 6:18p, 8/24/20
SupplyChainPack said:
Civilized said:
If voter fraud was such a massive problem before, why weren't Republicans concerned about it then?


There have been efforts to curtail voter fraud for decades. These have been ceaselessly fought with all of the rigor that Democrats can muster - which is rather substantial.

There have been efforts to reduce barriers to voting for decades. These have been ceaselessly fought with all of the rigor that Republicans can muster - which is rather substantial.
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SupplyChainPack
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In reply to Civilized • 6:34p, 8/24/20
Civilized said:
SupplyChainPack said:
Nobody should be able to get away with casting fraudulent votes, regardless of party affiliation.

It just happens to a substantially greater problem with Godless Democrats , who have no foundational morality to instruct them that lying, cheating, and gaming the system are wrong. Rather, theirs is a morality of "what can I get away with".

Link?


Here you go:


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SupplyChainPack
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In reply to Civilized • 6:38p, 8/24/20
Civilized said:
SupplyChainPack said:
Civilized said:
If voter fraud was such a massive problem before, why weren't Republicans concerned about it then?


There have been efforts to curtail voter fraud for decades. These have been ceaselessly fought with all of the rigor that Democrats can muster - which is rather substantial.

There have been efforts to reduce barriers to voting for decades. These have been ceaselessly fought with all of the rigor that Republicans can muster - which is rather substantial.


Oh, it's sooooo hard to get a photo ID!!! OH WOE IS ME, WHATEVER WILL I DO? I WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO VOTE AGAIN BECAUSE I'M TOO STUPID TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET AN ID.

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!!!!!
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statefan91
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In reply to SupplyChainPack • 6:53p, 8/24/20
Technically that's a poll tax if you're requiring someone buy something to be able to vote. Are you proposing universal State ID cards free of charge to go along with ID being required at polling locations?
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ncsualum05
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10:05a, 8/25/20
You can put on your mask and go vote. Go early. But in person voting is the only way I'd ever be comfortable doing it. I know people do absentee but I'm thankful I don't have to. Some of the states doing this universal mail-in are scary. Now I know a few have done it for decades and that's fine but most places are not set up. And of course you can commit fraud... and they'll try. There's always been miscounts in ballots or ballot harvesting in every election. The difference is the number of mail in and absentee was relatively low. Now you're talking about a massive portion of the country doing it when you could have margins of 1% in a handful of battleground states. This could decide the presidency, and many important senate and governor races. It's too damn big to be put in the mail. The states doing the automatic mail out to everyone even without a form to request are the ones that have nefarious intent IMO. Democrats are pushing this. Republicans are not. Maybe both cheat... but one is all in it appears.
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statefan91
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In reply to ncsualum05 • 10:12a, 8/25/20
ncsualum05 said:
You can put on your mask and go vote. Go early. But in person voting is the only way I'd ever be comfortable doing it. I know people do absentee but I'm thankful I don't have to. Some of the states doing this universal mail-in are scary. Now I know a few have done it for decades and that's fine but most places are not set up. And of course you can commit fraud... and they'll try. There's always been miscounts in ballots or ballot harvesting in every election. The difference is the number of mail in and absentee was relatively low. Now you're talking about a massive portion of the country doing it when you could have margins of 1% in a handful of battleground states. This could decide the presidency, and many important senate and governor races. It's too damn big to be put in the mail. The states doing the automatic mail out to everyone even without a form to request are the ones that have nefarious intent IMO. Democrats are pushing this. Republicans are not. Maybe both cheat... but one is all in it appears.
Are there any States that are sending out ballots to everyone that wasn't already doing it as part of their normal voting approach?
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GoPack2008
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In reply to Ripper • 5:06p, 8/25/20
Ripper said:
GoPack2008 said:
^i can't remember the last time I had a major issue mailing or receiving anything via USPS. I've had plenty of issues with UPS and Fedex.

I suspect neither of our individual experiences is representative.
USPS screws up just like every other entity. Quit being a weenie and go vote at your local polling place. Jesus, *** is wrong with people. If you are old and/or comorbid, then get an absentee ballot.
Wow, so angry.

I'm not really sure how you wound up here. I never said I wouldn't vote in person, just that it made sense to have more options for people.
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GoPack2008
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5:09p, 8/25/20
I guess SCP finally got banned from the Brickyard for his bonkers transphobic satanic paranoia.
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SupplyChainPack
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12:06p, 8/26/20
Some good insights on this issue here:


Postal Efficiency Plan Distorted by Politics and Poor Communication

https://www.dailysignal.com/2020/08/25/postal-efficiency-plan-distorted-by-politics-and-poor-communication/
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