Coronavirus

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GuerrillaPack
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8:35p, 7/16/21
Biden and the Leftist Establishment media continue with their campaign to pressure Big Tech social media sites (Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube) to censor those opposed to vaccines and the "official" narrative on covid. Biden says that these sites are "killing people" by allowing freedom of speech and people to speak out against vaccines.

Showing their true colors once again as flaming authoritarians, and the TRUE fascists.



"misinformation" is the buzzword they are using to label the views they want to censor.

The REAL misinformation is coming from the Establishment media and governments, which are essentially lying about everything related to "covid".

Here they have this clown surgeon general alleging that free speech is a "serious threat to public health":



Not only do these people want to force you to be injected, violating your human right to decide what goes into your own body...but also to silence and take away your freedom of speech to speak out against it.
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ciscopack
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8:05a, 7/17/21
After a Steep Plunge in Virus Cases, Every State Is Seeing an Uptick

The country is at an inflection point, and experts said it was uncertain what would come next. While nationwide cases and hospitalization numbers remain relatively low, more local hot spots are appearing and the national trends are moving in the wrong direction.

"This will definitely be a surge," said Michael Osterholm, director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. "It won't be as big as what happened in January. But we still have 100 million people in the United States who are susceptible to COVID-19."
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ciscopack
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4:09p, 7/17/21
Doctor sounds alarm on low vaccination rates: 'It's not a debate. It's science.'

"What's most concerning to me is not really the flu," Dr. Cedric Dark, an assistant professor at Baylor College of Medicine. "It's not even COVID sometimes. At this point, it's that we're going to take a step backwards scientifically and medically because we're allowing people who don't believe in vaccines to run this debate that's happening. And it's not a debate it's science."
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GuerrillaPack
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In reply to ciscopack • 4:54p, 7/17/21
And thousands of other doctors, such as Dr. Peter McCullough, cardiologist and Vice Chief of Medicine at Baylor University Medical Center (interview linked in my post at bottom of previous page in this thread), are opposed to the vaccines and the "official" narrative on "covid".

There is NOT a "monolithic" or "consensus" view on covid (and hundreds of other major issues). It only would seem that way if you only get your propaganda....errrr "news" from the far Left Establishment Lamestream media, which censors alternative viewpoints and only promotes the Leftist/Establishment view.

There IS a debate going on, no matter how much the Leftist Establishment would like to silence and totally censor all their opposition. That's why over half of Americans are still not fully jabbed. And TRUE science exposes the "official" narrative on "covid" to be a pack of lies.
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packgrad
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In reply to ciscopack • 5:08p, 7/17/21
ciscopack said:
Doctor sounds alarm on low vaccination rates: 'It's not a debate. It's science.'

"What's most concerning to me is not really the flu," Dr. Cedric Dark, an assistant professor at Baylor College of Medicine. "It's not even COVID sometimes. At this point, it's that we're going to take a step backwards scientifically and medically because we're allowing people who don't believe in vaccines to run this debate that's happening. And it's not a debate it's science."


Lol. It's science. Poor Cisco.
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Ripper
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5:23p, 7/17/21
The people with signs in their yard saying "Science is real" are the least science based people on the planet.
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GuerrillaPack
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In reply to Ripper • 5:34p, 7/17/21
Ripper said:
The people with signs in their yard saying "Science is real" are the least science based people on the planet.


True. These are the same people who deny the clear biological science that there are two genders, and now say there are 473 genders. And who deny that an unborn child is a living human being. And who would have us believe that the preposterous theories of evolution and the Big Bang are "scientific proof" that there is no God and we are all advanced apes on a rock hurling through space who came into existence after nothing exploded and created everything by pure chance. That kind of "science".

They completely reject real science, and promote pseudo science that advances their agenda. Same thing as it relates to the covid farce.
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GuerrillaPack
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5:50p, 7/17/21
This is what we need - mass civil disobedience and a refusal to obey the dictates of these tyrants. These governments are illegitimate, issuing unconstitutional edicts violating our God-given rights.

https://instagr.am/p/CRcZwq5Hi5d

Quote:
The Los Angeles County Sheriff Alex Villanueva on Friday said he would not use the department's "limited resources" to enforce the new mask mandate imposed on the county since it is "not backed by science."
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PackFansXL
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8:08p, 7/17/21
https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/07/convincing-the-skeptics/

Despite remarks made on anti-social media, this is a good article worth reading.
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GuerrillaPack
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8:59p, 7/17/21
https://instagr.am/p/CRchXrvDymF
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TheStorm
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7:03a, 7/18/21
Only 4 more days left to wait...
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caryking
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9:38a, 7/18/21
Here's the way I see things...

I was going to get the J&J vaccines. All of sudden, they pulled it from the shelves (well, you know what I mean) and that stopped me from getting it. Now, I could have gotten the mRNA versions; however, they honestly caused me apprehension...

So, I waited to see what was going to happen with the J&J version and started looking at the data. The deaths (even though what's reported is a small percentage) caused me concern. I am not an anti-vaccine person at all. I've had all kinds of shots when I was younger, get the flu shot yearly, and am in no way part of the anti-whatever crowd. Honestly, I am one of the least qualified people on earth to give advise!

Now, we are where we are. At this point, I'm waiting. No reason to get the vaccine as time will give us the real positives and/or negatives of the current trial we are in. I've never signed up for a clinical trial and, at this point, I don't plan on changing that.

So, there you go... that's the way I am looking at this. Thoughts?
On the illegal or criminal immigrants…

“they built the country, the reason our economy is growing”

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RunsWithWolves26
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In reply to caryking • 9:43a, 7/18/21
Your choice to get it or not. For me, I got the Pfizer vaccine after taking with my brother who has a doctorate in pharmacy and a masters in clinical research. After listening to his advice and thoughts, I made the choice to get Pfizer. He works in a huge hospital and it makes him so angry to see people come in with covid and die from covid who aren't vaccinated. His words "a life that shouldn't have been lost, was lost." Just as I feel wearing a mask is a choice, I also feel the same about getting the vaccine. I hope you do get the vaccine just for your personal safety but I respect your decision not to get it if you don't feel you should.

Edited to add. No I am not in the camp that says if you aren't vaccinated you should be shunned or disrespected. I'm also not in the camp that those, like ymself, who wear a mask should be either.
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ChemE94
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10:41a, 7/18/21
I posted this on another site. I haven't read through this whole thread or followed the discussion, so sorry in advance if something like this has been posted already. Science, statistics, politics, and conspiracy theories aside - for folks who are on the fence/hell no ain't doing it about this vaccine, if your spouse or child was immunocompromised, would you get vaccinated to help protect them? That is our situation. I have a kid who is immunodeficient, for whom vaccination is not an option, and our family chose to get vaccinated as soon as we were eligible.

Literally millions of people in this country are immune suppressed/compromised. Folks who are organ donor recipients, cancer patients and survivors, people with autoimmune disorders like rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, and Crohn's disease and are on biologic medications or steroids, folks with genetic primary immune deficiencies, and hiv are all in this group where vaccines are significantly less effective, or in some instances, provide no benefit at all. For the vast majority of people the vaccine is so low risk, I really don't understand folks unwillingness to help protect people who are unable to help themselves. I know this is going to be a super polarizing, but I beg folks who read this who are noncommittal about getting vaccinated to please reconsider. Don't do it for yourself, do it to help those in need who cannot protect themselves. You may quite literally be helping to save a life.
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caryking
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In reply to ChemE94 • 11:06a, 7/18/21
ChemE94 said:
I posted this on another site. I haven't read through this whole thread or followed the discussion, so sorry in advance if something like this has been posted already. Science, statistics, politics, and conspiracy theories aside - for folks who are on the fence/hell no ain't doing it about this vaccine, if your spouse or child was immunocompromised, would you get vaccinated to help protect them? That is our situation. I have a kid who is immunodeficient, for whom vaccination is not an option, and our family chose to get vaccinated as soon as we were eligible.

Literally millions of people in this country are immune suppressed/compromised. Folks who are organ donor recipients, cancer patients and survivors, people with autoimmune disorders like rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, and Crohn's disease and are on biologic medications or steroids, folks with genetic primary immune deficiencies, and hiv are all in this group where vaccines are significantly less effective, or in some instances, provide no benefit at all. For the vast majority of people the vaccine is so low risk, I really don't understand folks unwillingness to help protect people who are unable to help themselves. I know this is going to be a super polarizing, but I beg folks who read this who are noncommittal about getting vaccinated to please reconsider. Don't do it for yourself, do it to help those in need who cannot protect themselves. You may quite literally be helping to save a life.
I just fundamentally disagree with your whole argument. You, my friend, are the type of person that appears to shame others with a different opinion and/or decision.

I guess you would recommend a person get the vaccine that is in the group that the CDC has called out warnings. You would recommend this in order to help people who are unable to help themselves.

What happened to the liberals who say: my body, my decision...
On the illegal or criminal immigrants…

“they built the country, the reason our economy is growing”

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ChemE94
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In reply to caryking • 11:54a, 7/18/21
I am not shaming anyone for their opinion, nor am I espousing a political view. I am merely asking for help. Call me whatever, but labeling someone a liberal or a conservative, pub or dem is just super helpful with advancing/contributing to this discussion (not!). I said for the vast majority of folks, the vaccine has proven to be low risk. If you are allergic to vaccine ingredients, have had issues with vaccinations in the past, or have a condition where the vaccine is contraindicated, clearly you shouldn't get it, but this is not the majority of folks. I generally believe those who are in a position to help should, and really find it odd that that in and of itself has become polarizing. The question I originally asked stands - if your spouse, child, mom or dad were immunocompromised, would you get vaccinated to help protect them?
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Civilized
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In reply to caryking • 11:59a, 7/18/21
pineknollshoresking said:
Here's the way I see things...

I was going to get the J&J vaccines. All of sudden, they pulled it from the shelves (well, you know what I mean) and that stopped me from getting it. Now, I could have gotten the mRNA versions; however, they honestly caused me apprehension...

So, I waited to see what was going to happen with the J&J version and started looking at the data. The deaths (even though what's reported is a small percentage) caused me concern. I am not an anti-vaccine person at all. I've had all kinds of shots when I was younger, get the flu shot yearly, and am in no way part of the anti-whatever crowd. Honestly, I am one of the least qualified people on earth to give advise!

Now, we are where we are. At this point, I'm waiting. No reason to get the vaccine as time will give us the real positives and/or negatives of the current trial we are in. I've never signed up for a clinical trial and, at this point, I don't plan on changing that.

So, there you go... that's the way I am looking at this. Thoughts?

My thoughts are that it's mostly a math problem.

Given your age and health, what's your risk of having serious complications or death from Covid versus having serious complications or death from the vaccine?

There are also significant lifestyle benefits of being vaccinated. Does it allow you to travel, eat out, go to State basketball games, etc. more often or with less worry?
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caryking
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In reply to Civilized • 12:13p, 7/18/21
Civilized said:
pineknollshoresking said:
Here's the way I see things...

I was going to get the J&J vaccines. All of sudden, they pulled it from the shelves (well, you know what I mean) and that stopped me from getting it. Now, I could have gotten the mRNA versions; however, they honestly caused me apprehension...

So, I waited to see what was going to happen with the J&J version and started looking at the data. The deaths (even though what's reported is a small percentage) caused me concern. I am not an anti-vaccine person at all. I've had all kinds of shots when I was younger, get the flu shot yearly, and am in no way part of the anti-whatever crowd. Honestly, I am one of the least qualified people on earth to give advise!

Now, we are where we are. At this point, I'm waiting. No reason to get the vaccine as time will give us the real positives and/or negatives of the current trial we are in. I've never signed up for a clinical trial and, at this point, I don't plan on changing that.

So, there you go... that's the way I am looking at this. Thoughts?

My thoughts are that it's mostly a math problem.

Given your age and health, what's your risk of having serious complications or death from Covid versus having serious complications or death from the vaccine?

There are also significant lifestyle benefits of being vaccinated. Does it allow you to travel, eat out, go to State basketball games, etc. more often or with less worry?
You know, how can we know? The one drug that may have been helpful at keeping people alive was seriously politicized because the f'ing president made comments about positive results from it.

If we only had a chance to see drugs work, saving lives, without the media talking **** (and some on this board) about Trump, the rush for vaccinations may not be as needed.

Again, all the supposed lack of doing things is moot!! WE NEVER HAD A CHANCE FOR AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE VACCINE!!! The liberals (that's right I said it) shut down the conversations and the possibilities. SHAME ON YOU PEOPLE!!!
On the illegal or criminal immigrants…

“they built the country, the reason our economy is growing”

Joe Biden
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Daviewolf83
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In reply to Civilized • 12:30p, 7/18/21
Civilized said:
pineknollshoresking said:
Here's the way I see things...

I was going to get the J&J vaccines. All of sudden, they pulled it from the shelves (well, you know what I mean) and that stopped me from getting it. Now, I could have gotten the mRNA versions; however, they honestly caused me apprehension...

So, I waited to see what was going to happen with the J&J version and started looking at the data. The deaths (even though what's reported is a small percentage) caused me concern. I am not an anti-vaccine person at all. I've had all kinds of shots when I was younger, get the flu shot yearly, and am in no way part of the anti-whatever crowd. Honestly, I am one of the least qualified people on earth to give advise!

Now, we are where we are. At this point, I'm waiting. No reason to get the vaccine as time will give us the real positives and/or negatives of the current trial we are in. I've never signed up for a clinical trial and, at this point, I don't plan on changing that.

So, there you go... that's the way I am looking at this. Thoughts?

My thoughts are that it's mostly a math problem.

Given your age and health, what's your risk of having serious complications or death from Covid versus having serious complications or death from the vaccine?

There are also significant lifestyle benefits of being vaccinated. Does it allow you to travel, eat out, go to State basketball games, etc. more often or with less worry?
In Germany, they have weighed the risks and are not recommending vaccination for those aged 12-17. They have looked at the mortality risk of the virus and compared it to the known health risks for the vaccines and have decided that the risks do not outweigh the benefits for this age group. The only exception are those who have health conditions that make them higher risk if they become infected with the virus. The UK is currently going through the same review now and some advisors to the health system in the UK are urging a similar approach to Germany. In this country, parents need to make the same calculation and if they decide to not vaccinate their children with a vaccine that is not fully approved for use, it is their decision and not the government's. Public schools and other governmental entities do not have a right to require vaccination until the vaccines are fully FDA approved.

The assumption that those at risk are protected by people getting vaccinated is a faulty assumption. The science shows immunocompromised people are at risk from people who are fully vaccinated. Vaccinated people can become infected and studies show a small percentage of vaccinated people can still transmit the virus to others. There are no absolutes. Immunocompromised people are also at risk from a lot of other viruses, such at the yearly flu, but we are not shaming people and coercing people to get vaccinated for all these other viruses to protect the vulnerable.

As many on this thread know, my daughter has Crohn's and has lived with the disease for several years. I have a very good friend who was diagnosed with the disease a couple of years ago. They have both been vaccinated and both have been tested for antibodies, following vaccination. My daughter believes she is sufficiently protected and has started to live her life more normally. My friend is still nervous and when we last ate dinner with her and her husband (at a restaurant, seated outdoors), we wore masks until our food arrived, ate, and then replaced our masks. I am vaccinated and my wife is vaccinated, but my friend was concerned that we could still transmit the virus to her if we were unknowingly infected. While her concern is extreme, it is also valid. Vaccines do not protect the immunocompromised absolutely.

When my daughter was diagnosed and began taking her treatments (one that has been effective, so far), she was made very aware of the risks of the treatment to her overall health. She was told at the time that her risk of serious disease and death would increase. For example, her risk of certain cancers is higher. Her risk of serious illness from the yearly flu is higher. She understands the risks and she has decided to live her life as normally as she can.
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caryking
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In reply to Daviewolf83 • 12:36p, 7/18/21
Daviewolf83 said:
Civilized said:
pineknollshoresking said:
Here's the way I see things...

I was going to get the J&J vaccines. All of sudden, they pulled it from the shelves (well, you know what I mean) and that stopped me from getting it. Now, I could have gotten the mRNA versions; however, they honestly caused me apprehension...

So, I waited to see what was going to happen with the J&J version and started looking at the data. The deaths (even though what's reported is a small percentage) caused me concern. I am not an anti-vaccine person at all. I've had all kinds of shots when I was younger, get the flu shot yearly, and am in no way part of the anti-whatever crowd. Honestly, I am one of the least qualified people on earth to give advise!

Now, we are where we are. At this point, I'm waiting. No reason to get the vaccine as time will give us the real positives and/or negatives of the current trial we are in. I've never signed up for a clinical trial and, at this point, I don't plan on changing that.

So, there you go... that's the way I am looking at this. Thoughts?

My thoughts are that it's mostly a math problem.

Given your age and health, what's your risk of having serious complications or death from Covid versus having serious complications or death from the vaccine?

There are also significant lifestyle benefits of being vaccinated. Does it allow you to travel, eat out, go to State basketball games, etc. more often or with less worry?
In Germany, they have weighed the risks and are not recommending vaccination for those aged 12-17. They have looked at the mortality risk of the virus and compared it to the known health risks for the vaccines and have decided that the risks do not outweigh the benefits for this age group. The only exception are those who have health conditions that make them higher risk if they become infected with the virus. The UK is currently going through the same review now and some advisors to the health system in the UK are urging a similar approach to Germany. In this country, parents need to make the same calculation and if they decide to not vaccinate their children with a vaccine that is not fully approved for use, it is their decision and not the government's. Public schools and other governmental entities do not have a right to require vaccination until the vaccines are fully FDA approved.

The assumption that those at risk are protected by people getting vaccinated is a faulty assumption. The science shows immunocompromised people are at risk from people who are fully vaccinated. Vaccinated people can become infected and studies show a small percentage of vaccinated people can still transmit the virus to others. There are no absolutes. Immunocompromised people are also at risk from a lot of other viruses, such at the yearly flu, but we are not shaming people and coercing people to get vaccinated for all these other viruses to protect the vulnerable.

As many on this thread know, my daughter has Crohn's and has lived with the disease for several years. I have a very good friend who was diagnosed with the disease a couple of years ago. They have both been vaccinated and both have been tested for antibodies, following vaccination. My daughter believes she is sufficiently protected and has started to live her life more normally. My friend is still nervous and when we last ate dinner with her and her husband (at a restaurant, seated outdoors), we wore masks until our food arrived, ate, and then replaced our masks. I am vaccinated and my wife is vaccinated, but my friend was concerned that we could still transmit the virus to her if we were unknowingly infected. While her concern is extreme, it is also valid. Vaccines do not protect the immunocompromised absolutely.

When my daughter was diagnosed and began taking her treatments (one that has been effective, so far), she was made very aware of the risks of the treatment to her overall health. She was told at the time that her risk of serious disease and death would increase. For example, her risk of certain cancers is higher. Her risk of serious illness from the yearly flu is higher. She understands the risks and she has decided to live her life as normally as she can.
Such a well stated and rational post. Thank You!!!
On the illegal or criminal immigrants…

“they built the country, the reason our economy is growing”

Joe Biden
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Civilized
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In reply to caryking • 2:36p, 7/18/21
pineknollshoresking said:
Such a well stated and rational post. Thank You!!!

That's the way Davie rolls, as we all know.
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Civilized
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In reply to caryking • 2:51p, 7/18/21
pineknollshoresking said:
Civilized said:
pineknollshoresking said:
Here's the way I see things...

I was going to get the J&J vaccines. All of sudden, they pulled it from the shelves (well, you know what I mean) and that stopped me from getting it. Now, I could have gotten the mRNA versions; however, they honestly caused me apprehension...

So, I waited to see what was going to happen with the J&J version and started looking at the data. The deaths (even though what's reported is a small percentage) caused me concern. I am not an anti-vaccine person at all. I've had all kinds of shots when I was younger, get the flu shot yearly, and am in no way part of the anti-whatever crowd. Honestly, I am one of the least qualified people on earth to give advise!

Now, we are where we are. At this point, I'm waiting. No reason to get the vaccine as time will give us the real positives and/or negatives of the current trial we are in. I've never signed up for a clinical trial and, at this point, I don't plan on changing that.

So, there you go... that's the way I am looking at this. Thoughts?

My thoughts are that it's mostly a math problem.

Given your age and health, what's your risk of having serious complications or death from Covid versus having serious complications or death from the vaccine?

There are also significant lifestyle benefits of being vaccinated. Does it allow you to travel, eat out, go to State basketball games, etc. more often or with less worry?
You know, how can we know? The one drug that may have been helpful at keeping people alive was seriously politicized because the f'ing president made comments about positive results from it.

If we only had a chance to see drugs work, saving lives, without the media talking **** (and some on this board) about Trump, the rush for vaccinations may not be as needed.

Again, all the supposed lack of doing things is moot!! WE NEVER HAD A CHANCE FOR AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE VACCINE!!! The liberals (that's right I said it) shut down the conversations and the possibilities. SHAME ON YOU PEOPLE!!!

There are no absolutes in COVID, or in life. We make decisions based on the best available information understanding that there are no guarantees.

3.6 billion doses of the vaccine have been administered worldwide; 330M in the US. The number of verified deaths from the vaccine is essentially nil. Nearly all of the serious COVID cases and deaths are now from unvaccinated people.

There is clearly a small subset of people for whom the vaccine isn't a fit.

There's a ton of information out there, and it's easy to get overwhelmed. The most important point source of information and guidance is your medical team. Do/es your doctor(s) think you should get it? (That's a rhetorical question, I'm obviously not asking you to answer it here).

What your medical providers would do if they were in your shoes should have outsize weight in your considerations.
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caryking
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In reply to Civilized • 3:57p, 7/18/21
Civilized said:
pineknollshoresking said:
Civilized said:
pineknollshoresking said:
Here's the way I see things...

I was going to get the J&J vaccines. All of sudden, they pulled it from the shelves (well, you know what I mean) and that stopped me from getting it. Now, I could have gotten the mRNA versions; however, they honestly caused me apprehension...

So, I waited to see what was going to happen with the J&J version and started looking at the data. The deaths (even though what's reported is a small percentage) caused me concern. I am not an anti-vaccine person at all. I've had all kinds of shots when I was younger, get the flu shot yearly, and am in no way part of the anti-whatever crowd. Honestly, I am one of the least qualified people on earth to give advise!

Now, we are where we are. At this point, I'm waiting. No reason to get the vaccine as time will give us the real positives and/or negatives of the current trial we are in. I've never signed up for a clinical trial and, at this point, I don't plan on changing that.

So, there you go... that's the way I am looking at this. Thoughts?

My thoughts are that it's mostly a math problem.

Given your age and health, what's your risk of having serious complications or death from Covid versus having serious complications or death from the vaccine?

There are also significant lifestyle benefits of being vaccinated. Does it allow you to travel, eat out, go to State basketball games, etc. more often or with less worry?
You know, how can we know? The one drug that may have been helpful at keeping people alive was seriously politicized because the f'ing president made comments about positive results from it.

If we only had a chance to see drugs work, saving lives, without the media talking **** (and some on this board) about Trump, the rush for vaccinations may not be as needed.

Again, all the supposed lack of doing things is moot!! WE NEVER HAD A CHANCE FOR AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE VACCINE!!! The liberals (that's right I said it) shut down the conversations and the possibilities. SHAME ON YOU PEOPLE!!!

There are no absolutes in COVID, or in life. We make decisions based on the best available information understanding that there are no guarantees.

3.6 billion doses of the vaccine have been administered worldwide; 330M in the US. The number of verified deaths from the vaccine is essentially nil. Nearly all of the serious COVID cases and deaths are now from unvaccinated people.

There is clearly a small subset of people for whom the vaccine isn't a fit.

There's a ton of information out there, and it's easy to get overwhelmed. The most important point source of information and guidance is your medical team. Do/es your doctor(s) think you should get it? (That's a rhetorical question, I'm obviously not asking you to answer it here).

What your medical providers would do if they were in your shoes should have outsize weight in your considerations.
Civ, you missed my point, it appears... we had a significant reaction to Trumps comments on hydroxychloroquine that made it taboo to use. In fact, the following is directly from the WHO website:

FACT: Clinical trials confirm that hydroxychloroquine does not prevent illness or death from COVID-19.

I think you will find numerous scientist saying the complete opposite! This is the kind of stuff that really causes me concern regarding the vaccine in general. Everything has become so damn political in our health sciences that it causes me caution!

BTW, tell the people that have lost a loved one, from the vaccine, "it isn't a fit"...
On the illegal or criminal immigrants…

“they built the country, the reason our economy is growing”

Joe Biden
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packgrad
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4:03p, 7/18/21
Hard to take the data seriously when there are different standards for reporting the virus and the vaccine. They are still backdating deaths from a year ago as Covid deaths while not reporting deaths after being vaccinated as vaccine deaths. It's pretty much all propaganda at this point. It's unfortunate
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In reply to packgrad • 6:42p, 7/18/21
packgrad said:
Hard to take the data seriously when there are different standards for reporting the virus and the vaccine. They are still backdating deaths from a year ago as Covid deaths while not reporting deaths after being vaccinated as vaccine deaths. It's pretty much all propaganda at this point. It's unfortunate
Agree!!!!
On the illegal or criminal immigrants…

“they built the country, the reason our economy is growing”

Joe Biden
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Mormad
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In reply to ChemE94 • 6:47p, 7/18/21
ChemE94 said:
I am not shaming anyone for their opinion, nor am I espousing a political view. I am merely asking for help. Call me whatever, but labeling someone a liberal or a conservative, pub or dem is just super helpful with advancing/contributing to this discussion (not!). I said for the vast majority of folks, the vaccine has proven to be low risk. If you are allergic to vaccine ingredients, have had issues with vaccinations in the past, or have a condition where the vaccine is contraindicated, clearly you shouldn't get it, but this is not the majority of folks. I generally believe those who are in a position to help should, and really find it odd that that in and of itself has become polarizing. The question I originally asked stands - if your spouse, child, mom or dad were immunocompromised, would you get vaccinated to help protect them?


Absolutely
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In reply to Daviewolf83 • 6:50p, 7/18/21
Daviewolf83 said:
Civilized said:
pineknollshoresking said:
Here's the way I see things...

I was going to get the J&J vaccines. All of sudden, they pulled it from the shelves (well, you know what I mean) and that stopped me from getting it. Now, I could have gotten the mRNA versions; however, they honestly caused me apprehension...

So, I waited to see what was going to happen with the J&J version and started looking at the data. The deaths (even though what's reported is a small percentage) caused me concern. I am not an anti-vaccine person at all. I've had all kinds of shots when I was younger, get the flu shot yearly, and am in no way part of the anti-whatever crowd. Honestly, I am one of the least qualified people on earth to give advise!

Now, we are where we are. At this point, I'm waiting. No reason to get the vaccine as time will give us the real positives and/or negatives of the current trial we are in. I've never signed up for a clinical trial and, at this point, I don't plan on changing that.

So, there you go... that's the way I am looking at this. Thoughts?

My thoughts are that it's mostly a math problem.

Given your age and health, what's your risk of having serious complications or death from Covid versus having serious complications or death from the vaccine?

There are also significant lifestyle benefits of being vaccinated. Does it allow you to travel, eat out, go to State basketball games, etc. more often or with less worry?


The assumption that those at risk are protected by people getting vaccinated is a faulty assumption.



Sadly, there will be plenty of misinterpretation of this statement here
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In reply to packgrad • 7:06p, 7/18/21
packgrad said:
Hard to take the data seriously when there are different standards for reporting the virus and the vaccine. They are still backdating deaths from a year ago as Covid deaths while not reporting deaths after being vaccinated as vaccine deaths. It's pretty much all propaganda at this point. It's unfortunate


Idk, man. Sometimes i think people here focus on the inconsequential. Since the vaccines we've seen a drop in cases, hospitalizations, and death. That's not propaganda. And it matters. Nobody knows the true number of vaccine deaths, but do you not feel confident that the vaccine has saved more lives and it has ended? And by a vast amount? Do you not think the number of deaths from COVID-19 has been reduced by the vaccines? Does the minutia change that?
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caryking
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In reply to Mormad • 7:07p, 7/18/21
Mormad said:
Daviewolf83 said:
Civilized said:
pineknollshoresking said:
Here's the way I see things...

I was going to get the J&J vaccines. All of sudden, they pulled it from the shelves (well, you know what I mean) and that stopped me from getting it. Now, I could have gotten the mRNA versions; however, they honestly caused me apprehension...

So, I waited to see what was going to happen with the J&J version and started looking at the data. The deaths (even though what's reported is a small percentage) caused me concern. I am not an anti-vaccine person at all. I've had all kinds of shots when I was younger, get the flu shot yearly, and am in no way part of the anti-whatever crowd. Honestly, I am one of the least qualified people on earth to give advise!

Now, we are where we are. At this point, I'm waiting. No reason to get the vaccine as time will give us the real positives and/or negatives of the current trial we are in. I've never signed up for a clinical trial and, at this point, I don't plan on changing that.

So, there you go... that's the way I am looking at this. Thoughts?

My thoughts are that it's mostly a math problem.

Given your age and health, what's your risk of having serious complications or death from Covid versus having serious complications or death from the vaccine?

There are also significant lifestyle benefits of being vaccinated. Does it allow you to travel, eat out, go to State basketball games, etc. more often or with less worry?


The assumption that those at risk are protected by people getting vaccinated is a faulty assumption.



Sadly, there will be plenty of misinterpretation of this statement here
Well, help clear it up for everyone...
On the illegal or criminal immigrants…

“they built the country, the reason our economy is growing”

Joe Biden
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packgrad
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In reply to Mormad • 7:27p, 7/18/21
Mormad said:
packgrad said:
Hard to take the data seriously when there are different standards for reporting the virus and the vaccine. They are still backdating deaths from a year ago as Covid deaths while not reporting deaths after being vaccinated as vaccine deaths. It's pretty much all propaganda at this point. It's unfortunate


Idk, man. Sometimes i think people here focus on the inconsequential. Since the vaccines we've seen a drop in cases, hospitalizations, and death. That's not propaganda. And it matters. Nobody knows the true number of vaccine deaths, but do you not feel confident that the vaccine has saved more lives and it has ended? And by a vast amount? Do you not think the number of deaths from COVID-19 has been reduced by the vaccines? Does the minutia change that?


I do think the vaccines have helped. I unfortunately also feel the books have been cooked though so there is not an accurate representation of Covid deaths. The reporting and statistics have been agenda based.

A patient can die of heart disease and test positive for Covid and be counted as a Covid death. A person with heart disease can die shortly after getting vaccinated and be considered a death from heart disease. That is my issue. Add to that the fact I went into Afib twice after getting the vaccine when I've never had it in my life. There is no follow up on how I've handled the vaccination so issues like mine don't get represented.
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Oldsouljer
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In reply to caryking • 7:49p, 7/18/21
pineknollshoresking said:
Civilized said:
pineknollshoresking said:
Civilized said:
pineknollshoresking said:
Here's the way I see things...

I was going to get the J&J vaccines. All of sudden, they pulled it from the shelves (well, you know what I mean) and that stopped me from getting it. Now, I could have gotten the mRNA versions; however, they honestly caused me apprehension...

So, I waited to see what was going to happen with the J&J version and started looking at the data. The deaths (even though what's reported is a small percentage) caused me concern. I am not an anti-vaccine person at all. I've had all kinds of shots when I was younger, get the flu shot yearly, and am in no way part of the anti-whatever crowd. Honestly, I am one of the least qualified people on earth to give advise!

Now, we are where we are. At this point, I'm waiting. No reason to get the vaccine as time will give us the real positives and/or negatives of the current trial we are in. I've never signed up for a clinical trial and, at this point, I don't plan on changing that.

So, there you go... that's the way I am looking at this. Thoughts?

My thoughts are that it's mostly a math problem.

Given your age and health, what's your risk of having serious complications or death from Covid versus having serious complications or death from the vaccine?

There are also significant lifestyle benefits of being vaccinated. Does it allow you to travel, eat out, go to State basketball games, etc. more often or with less worry?
You know, how can we know? The one drug that may have been helpful at keeping people alive was seriously politicized because the f'ing president made comments about positive results from it.

If we only had a chance to see drugs work, saving lives, without the media talking **** (and some on this board) about Trump, the rush for vaccinations may not be as needed.

Again, all the supposed lack of doing things is moot!! WE NEVER HAD A CHANCE FOR AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE VACCINE!!! The liberals (that's right I said it) shut down the conversations and the possibilities. SHAME ON YOU PEOPLE!!!

There are no absolutes in COVID, or in life. We make decisions based on the best available information understanding that there are no guarantees.

3.6 billion doses of the vaccine have been administered worldwide; 330M in the US. The number of verified deaths from the vaccine is essentially nil. Nearly all of the serious COVID cases and deaths are now from unvaccinated people.

There is clearly a small subset of people for whom the vaccine isn't a fit.

There's a ton of information out there, and it's easy to get overwhelmed. The most important point source of information and guidance is your medical team. Do/es your doctor(s) think you should get it? (That's a rhetorical question, I'm obviously not asking you to answer it here).

What your medical providers would do if they were in your shoes should have outsize weight in your considerations.
Civ, you missed my point, it appears... we had a significant reaction to Trumps comments on hydroxychloroquine that made it taboo to use. In fact, the following is directly from the WHO website:

FACT: Clinical trials confirm that hydroxychloroquine does not prevent illness or death from COVID-19.

I think you will find numerous scientist saying the complete opposite! This is the kind of stuff that really causes me concern regarding the vaccine in general. Everything has become so damn political in our health sciences that it causes me caution!

BTW, tell the people that have lost a loved one, from the vaccine, "it isn't a fit"...
The WHO website...LOL
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Packchem91
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In reply to Mormad • 9:29p, 7/18/21
Mormad said:
packgrad said:
Hard to take the data seriously when there are different standards for reporting the virus and the vaccine. They are still backdating deaths from a year ago as Covid deaths while not reporting deaths after being vaccinated as vaccine deaths. It's pretty much all propaganda at this point. It's unfortunate


Idk, man. Sometimes i think people here focus on the inconsequential. Since the vaccines we've seen a drop in cases, hospitalizations, and death. That's not propaganda. And it matters. Nobody knows the true number of vaccine deaths, but do you not feel confident that the vaccine has saved more lives and it has ended? And by a vast amount? Do you not think the number of deaths from COVID-19 has been reduced by the vaccines? Does the minutia change that?
Agreed -- and the further we get away from this past late winter/early spring when it was really bad, the further washed down that story gets.
There are extremes in how to react on either side (see LA County as an example), but even if you discount a full 1/3 of all reported Covid deaths....400k would be enough to warrant a significant reaction / change.
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Packchem91
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In reply to caryking • 9:43p, 7/18/21
pineknollshoresking said:
Civilized said:
pineknollshoresking said:
Civilized said:
pineknollshoresking said:
Here's the way I see things...

I was going to get the J&J vaccines. All of sudden, they pulled it from the shelves (well, you know what I mean) and that stopped me from getting it. Now, I could have gotten the mRNA versions; however, they honestly caused me apprehension...

So, I waited to see what was going to happen with the J&J version and started looking at the data. The deaths (even though what's reported is a small percentage) caused me concern. I am not an anti-vaccine person at all. I've had all kinds of shots when I was younger, get the flu shot yearly, and am in no way part of the anti-whatever crowd. Honestly, I am one of the least qualified people on earth to give advise!

Now, we are where we are. At this point, I'm waiting. No reason to get the vaccine as time will give us the real positives and/or negatives of the current trial we are in. I've never signed up for a clinical trial and, at this point, I don't plan on changing that.

So, there you go... that's the way I am looking at this. Thoughts?

My thoughts are that it's mostly a math problem.

Given your age and health, what's your risk of having serious complications or death from Covid versus having serious complications or death from the vaccine?

There are also significant lifestyle benefits of being vaccinated. Does it allow you to travel, eat out, go to State basketball games, etc. more often or with less worry?
You know, how can we know? The one drug that may have been helpful at keeping people alive was seriously politicized because the f'ing president made comments about positive results from it.

If we only had a chance to see drugs work, saving lives, without the media talking **** (and some on this board) about Trump, the rush for vaccinations may not be as needed.

Again, all the supposed lack of doing things is moot!! WE NEVER HAD A CHANCE FOR AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE VACCINE!!! The liberals (that's right I said it) shut down the conversations and the possibilities. SHAME ON YOU PEOPLE!!!

There are no absolutes in COVID, or in life. We make decisions based on the best available information understanding that there are no guarantees.

3.6 billion doses of the vaccine have been administered worldwide; 330M in the US. The number of verified deaths from the vaccine is essentially nil. Nearly all of the serious COVID cases and deaths are now from unvaccinated people.

There is clearly a small subset of people for whom the vaccine isn't a fit.

There's a ton of information out there, and it's easy to get overwhelmed. The most important point source of information and guidance is your medical team. Do/es your doctor(s) think you should get it? (That's a rhetorical question, I'm obviously not asking you to answer it here).

What your medical providers would do if they were in your shoes should have outsize weight in your considerations.
Civ, you missed my point, it appears... we had a significant reaction to Trumps comments on hydroxychloroquine that made it taboo to use. In fact, the following is directly from the WHO website:

FACT: Clinical trials confirm that hydroxychloroquine does not prevent illness or death from COVID-19.

I think you will find numerous scientist saying the complete opposite! This is the kind of stuff that really causes me concern regarding the vaccine in general. Everything has become so damn political in our health sciences that it causes me caution!

BTW, tell the people that have lost a loved one, from the vaccine, "it isn't a fit"...
I ask this in all sincerity....who are these scientists?

This has been a topic for a year, and despite my strong belief that many people would do many weird things to avoid aligning with Trump on things....I just don't buy that the entire scientific and medical research community would be quiet and let a product taht was (1) available and (2) proven effective at preventing Covid or even preventing worsening conditions go by the wayside.

Many things change over time as more is learned about Covid, and I admittedly haven't paid much attention to this drug, but when I googled it, I still don't find much advocates its use for Covid...but maybe I'm missing some of the major medical and scientific journals taht are?

**For the record, if a loved one were sick, I'd advocate any thing that might give them a fighting chance...
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Mormad
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In reply to packgrad • 9:56p, 7/18/21
packgrad said:
Mormad said:
packgrad said:
Hard to take the data seriously when there are different standards for reporting the virus and the vaccine. They are still backdating deaths from a year ago as Covid deaths while not reporting deaths after being vaccinated as vaccine deaths. It's pretty much all propaganda at this point. It's unfortunate


Idk, man. Sometimes i think people here focus on the inconsequential. Since the vaccines we've seen a drop in cases, hospitalizations, and death. That's not propaganda. And it matters. Nobody knows the true number of vaccine deaths, but do you not feel confident that the vaccine has saved more lives and it has ended? And by a vast amount? Do you not think the number of deaths from COVID-19 has been reduced by the vaccines? Does the minutia change that?


I do think the vaccines have helped. I unfortunately also feel the books have been cooked though so there is not an accurate representation of Covid deaths. The reporting and statistics have been agenda based.

A patient can die of heart disease and test positive for Covid and be counted as a Covid death. A person with heart disease can die shortly after getting vaccinated and be considered a death from heart disease. That is my issue. Add to that the fact I went into Afib twice after getting the vaccine when I've never had it in my life. There is no follow up on how I've handled the vaccination so issues like mine don't get represented.


A patient dying of heart dz after surgery is still consider a mortality in the perioperative period and goes in the surgeon's and hospital's quality statistics. A person dying of heart dz WITH covid is both a cardiovascular death and a covid death from a health surveillance standpoint. A person dying a cardiac death FROM covid is a covid death, and both are typically listed on the cod. A person dying of heart dz after vax goes on both lists too, and rightfully so. If your afib hasn't been studied to determine if it's related to the vax, is that your fault, your provider's fault, or the government's fault? There's no gman looking over our shoulders telling us how to fill out death certificates or pressuring is to make things look bad. And docs certainly have no secondary gain from this sht. So where are these stats you're worried about coming from?
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9:57p, 7/18/21
I don't know a provider who believes hydroxy made a difference
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