If State misses the NCAA Tournament for the 2nd year in a row, does State try to talk Avent into retiring?
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NC State’s season took an abrupt u-turn when they got swept at home by Clemson a couple of weeks ago, and with it, their tournament outlook changed dramatically.
How did we end up here?
10 days ago the talk was about hosting, but now State might be a bubble team – if you want to be optimistic. You can’t get swept at home by anybody, particularly Clemson, even though they look better now. This happened last year against Wake Forest and it cost State. It cost them again this year even if they still find a way to dance.
The upside projecting State a month ago was looking at the schedule and thinking eventually their poor luck would turn. Well, they went 3-3 at home against FSU and Clemson, so the comfortable schedule is gone.
Their luck turned with a couple of tight wins against FSU (State is now 4-3 in one run ACC games, even though their +1 run differential indicates a team that should be .500 in ACC play, not four games under), but they simply have not played as well as they did earlier in the year -- even though they weren’t winning those games. I haven’t been inspired by the last four games of non-conference play, either, despite the win over ECU.
Looking back, a couple of losses sting, but none as much as the last BC game. If that’s a win, State is probably fine, but it wasn’t. An inexplicable loss at the time has gotten worse as the season has gone on.
State’s resume is being carried by their RPI of 24. I haven’t figured out how it’s at 24, but the non conference schedule has somehow held up. There’s no dead weight in the ACC, so that’s certainly helped the case, too.
The positives are that State has no ugly losses on the resume. They’re 22-1 in games against teams outside the top 50. The series win over Louisville has lost steam, but it’s still nice. Wins over Coastal and ECU should matter, but the committee did not care about it last year, so who knows.
7-13 in top 50 games, lack of quality series wins, and ACC record are the biggest barriers for State. The Pack really needs the Louisville series to mean more than it does. If State wasn’t 8-12 it’s not as big of an issue, but at the same time, they wouldn’t be 8-12 with another series win. This is where the BC loss hurts the most.
There’s nine ACC games left plus the ACC Tournament, although the committee has repeatedly shown they don’t care about the latter. Additionally, the Pack is currently only 0.5 games clear of missing the conference tournament, which is another problem to worry about.
6-3 would get the Pack to 14-15 in the league, likely with a top-20 RPI. That gets you in. The Pack is currently 2-5 in league series this year which is something that was an issue last year, hence why series wins are important against fellow bubble teams Notre Dame and UNC. Note that I don’t think 6-3 is a lock if it involves a series loss to one of those teams.
I don’t see the Pack getting in with a 5-4 finish. That would put them at 13-16, which would not be an unprecedented inclusion to the tournament, but it’s a major uphill battle. With the lack of quality series wins, I don’t think it’s enough. And are you really going to count on the NCAA committee to do any sort of favor for NC State?
I’ve been the high man on this team all year but I’m now in “prove-it” mode. They are 2-5 in ACC series this year after going 4-6 last year. How can you project them to suddenly win three series in a row and/or six games out of nine? They’ve only done that once the last two seasons: a sweep vs GT and then two of three on the road at Clemson last year.
Will this team go quietly into the night? Absolutely not; they will be heard from down the stretch. Despite how high the ceiling is, this group has not been able to string together multiple weeks of playing up to their potential, so it’s hard to suddenly think they will as this season enters do-or-die time.
I think Avent has earned the right to go out on his terms but the conversation starts early if he misses again.DJncsu13 said:
Just asking a question here with no intended opinion attached.
If State misses the NCAA Tournament for the 2nd year in a row, does State try to talk Avent into retiring?
As you know, I'm not a big EA fan, but I absolutely agree he's earned the right to go out on his own terms. I'm just hoping it is sooner rather than later. If we make a home run hire like Clemson did, the excitement around the fanbase will really reenergize the fundraising for stadium improvements.wilmwolf80 said:
Elliott isn't going to be forced out, not with the money committed to the renovations. He'll coach until he doesn't want to. He might choose to hang them up if he gets to 1000 wins at NC State this season anyway, but two seasons removed from Omaha, I don't think it would be well received if he was pushed into it
Like have a real chance at a National Championship like we were 22 months ago? I don't understand. I'd take a College World series every 8-10 years with what we put in to baseball.89_Grad said:I'm getting to stage where I'm wondering whether "if you keep doing what you've always done, you are going to get what you've always gotten."wilmwolf80 said:
Elliott isn't going to be forced out, not with the money committed to the renovations. He'll coach until he doesn't want to. He might choose to hang them up if he gets to 1000 wins at NC State this season anyway, but two seasons removed from Omaha, I don't think it would be well received if he was pushed into it
BobbyCox95 said:
Wild to be talking about Avent being asked to not be here or retire early. We are exactly 2 years removed from a very real chance at winning a National Championship. Were basically in the drivers seat from being in the Championship series. 2 College World Series, 5 Super Regionals (basically sweet 16) and 18 NCAA tourneys since '97. He has been by far our most successful coach since Valvano in what I would call our major sports, with well below average facilities to work with and we're talking about asking him to retire after not making the tourney for 2 years? Mind boggling to me.
But that's a once in a lifetime predicament. Has nothing to do with his coaching/recruiting ability. I don't blame him for any of that because that's something noone has ever been thru before. Rules were being made as we went along.78wilsonpack said:BobbyCox95 said:
Wild to be talking about Avent being asked to not be here or retire early. We are exactly 2 years removed from a very real chance at winning a National Championship. Were basically in the drivers seat from being in the Championship series. 2 College World Series, 5 Super Regionals (basically sweet 16) and 18 NCAA tourneys since '97. He has been by far our most successful coach since Valvano in what I would call our major sports, with well below average facilities to work with and we're talking about asking him to retire after not making the tourney for 2 years? Mind boggling to me.
I know this will not be popular here but again it's my opinion.
I agree with a lot of what you said. Who knows how the World Series would have turned out. However, I think he invited the NCAA or whomever to question and test all the players in the locker room when during a pandemic he made the public statement about "theirs a bug going around in the locker room" or something to that effect. Again. We might have been tested regardless but why make that comment. I'm not saying you lie if asked. But somethings you don't volunteer.
89_Grad said:As you know, I'm not a big EA fan, but I absolutely agree he's earned the right to go out on his own terms. I'm just hoping it is sooner rather than later. If we make a home run hire like Clemson did, the excitement around the fanbase will really reenergize the fundraising for stadium improvements.wilmwolf80 said:
Elliott isn't going to be forced out, not with the money committed to the renovations. He'll coach until he doesn't want to. He might choose to hang them up if he gets to 1000 wins at NC State this season anyway, but two seasons removed from Omaha, I don't think it would be well received if he was pushed into it
At present, as someone who has purchased season tickets for many years, I'm getting to stage where I'm wondering whether "if you keep doing what you've always done, you are going to get what you've always gotten." I've only been to about 1/3 or the games this year. I know if I dropped the season tickets, I'd probably go even less than I do. Part of it is busy season at work, but honestly, if I'm driving away from office and we are already losing when I check on radio, I keep on heading for home.
They are underwhelming but I doubt that's why. I could see EA being here another 6-8 years.Nairo said:
I wonder if we are holding back a few bullets on the stadium project until we bring on a new coach, because the current plans are underwhelming and aren't going to move the needle much amidst the arms race across the rest of college baseball.89_Grad said:As you know, I'm not a big EA fan, but I absolutely agree he's earned the right to go out on his own terms. I'm just hoping it is sooner rather than later. If we make a home run hire like Clemson did, the excitement around the fanbase will really reenergize the fundraising for stadium improvements.wilmwolf80 said:
Elliott isn't going to be forced out, not with the money committed to the renovations. He'll coach until he doesn't want to. He might choose to hang them up if he gets to 1000 wins at NC State this season anyway, but two seasons removed from Omaha, I don't think it would be well received if he was pushed into it
At present, as someone who has purchased season tickets for many years, I'm getting to stage where I'm wondering whether "if you keep doing what you've always done, you are going to get what you've always gotten." I've only been to about 1/3 or the games this year. I know if I dropped the season tickets, I'd probably go even less than I do. Part of it is busy season at work, but honestly, if I'm driving away from office and we are already losing when I check on radio, I keep on heading for home.
Wake? And even though they aren't P5, in baseball Coastal (close enough to NC) and ECU have more to offer than State does from facilities - both have been successful.3rdGenPacker said:
I'm not saying keep him or don't keep him. I think he's earned the right to leave on his own terms.
BUT, NC State should recruit really well as long as the facilities maintain minimum viability. I've explained this before, but I'll do it again here.
NC is in the top 5-6 states for baseball talent. (FL, TX, CA, GA are probably top 4)
Baseball doesn't give full rides - so the cost of attendance is an important factor for most families (11.7 total scholarships spread across 27 players I believe, with a minimum of 10% I think now - used to be 25%)
There are only 2 NC schools in a Power 5 conference - UNC and NC State.
Therefore, NC State and UNC should pretty much have their choice of the best players in one of the best states for baseball - kids want to play at the highest level and most families can't afford Duke or Wake, even with 50% help, especially compared to the public school options with 50% help.
So, the rosters for both schools should be very talented year in and year out. That's why schools like ECU and UNCW are good regularly as well.
If baseball were to give out free rides like football or basketball, that would change the recruiting process completely and create more of an arms race.
I meant to say public schools. Again, this is about the money available to the athletes. If Wake is $60K and State/UNC are $25K and I'm getting offered 40% at each, that still leaves more than 30K for my family to pay for me to attend Wake. Same goes for Campbell and Duke. Coastal is out of state, so for NC kids, it's going to be more expensive. And yes, that's one of the reasons ECU and UNCW have been able to build good baseball programs in lesser conferences.WolfQuacker said:Wake? And even though they aren't P5, in baseball Coastal (close enough to NC) and ECU have more to offer than State does from facilities - both have been successful.3rdGenPacker said:
I'm not saying keep him or don't keep him. I think he's earned the right to leave on his own terms.
BUT, NC State should recruit really well as long as the facilities maintain minimum viability. I've explained this before, but I'll do it again here.
NC is in the top 5-6 states for baseball talent. (FL, TX, CA, GA are probably top 4)
Baseball doesn't give full rides - so the cost of attendance is an important factor for most families (11.7 total scholarships spread across 27 players I believe, with a minimum of 10% I think now - used to be 25%)
There are only 2 NC schools in a Power 5 conference - UNC and NC State.
Therefore, NC State and UNC should pretty much have their choice of the best players in one of the best states for baseball - kids want to play at the highest level and most families can't afford Duke or Wake, even with 50% help, especially compared to the public school options with 50% help.
So, the rosters for both schools should be very talented year in and year out. That's why schools like ECU and UNCW are good regularly as well.
If baseball were to give out free rides like football or basketball, that would change the recruiting process completely and create more of an arms race.
Not disagreeing with most of what you are saying, but I don't think ECU/Wake/Campbell/CC are automatic wins in recruiting.
There are 12 remaining ACC teams (no Syracuse), otherwise a terrific post with solid stats that both justifies NC State's inclusion and articulates what Avent has been saying for weeks.BigLefty24 said:
Of note:
In a sport where parity from top to bottom is the norm, the ACC is 234-69 for a 76% win percentage against non-conference teams. 21 of those 69 losses are at the hands of FSU and Pitt. Remove those two teams and the remaining 13 ACC teams are 212-48 against non conference teams, for an 82% win percentage.
That's an incredible record in a sport where team parity is the norm, and you have teams like Campbell, ECU, and Coastal Carolina in the top 10-15 in the country. That performance out of conference by the ACC is remarkable. No other way to spin it.
State is 21-2 in the non-conference with a non-conference RPI of #5 in the nation. At some point, you gotta say to yourself, should a subpar record in the ACC disqualify you from being selected to the NCAA? The numbers across the board say hell no, they shouldnt.
State beat the brakes off of a top 10 Coastal Carolina team. Split a home and home with a top 15 ranked ECU.
I don't know if State will be selected, but they are 100% one of a select 15-20 teams that has the talent to make it to Omaha.
Yet, we need to "move on" from Avent. Sigh..Rob McLamb said:There are 12 remaining ACC teams (no Syracuse), otherwise a terrific post with solid stats that both justifies NC State's inclusion and articulates what Avent has been saying for weeks.BigLefty24 said:
Of note:
In a sport where parity from top to bottom is the norm, the ACC is 234-69 for a 76% win percentage against non-conference teams. 21 of those 69 losses are at the hands of FSU and Pitt. Remove those two teams and the remaining 13 ACC teams are 212-48 against non conference teams, for an 82% win percentage.
That's an incredible record in a sport where team parity is the norm, and you have teams like Campbell, ECU, and Coastal Carolina in the top 10-15 in the country. That performance out of conference by the ACC is remarkable. No other way to spin it.
State is 21-2 in the non-conference with a non-conference RPI of #5 in the nation. At some point, you gotta say to yourself, should a subpar record in the ACC disqualify you from being selected to the NCAA? The numbers across the board say hell no, they shouldnt.
State beat the brakes off of a top 10 Coastal Carolina team. Split a home and home with a top 15 ranked ECU.
I don't know if State will be selected, but they are 100% one of a select 15-20 teams that has the talent to make it to Omaha.
I'm late to this thread, I've been out on the west coast for work for a hot minute and just now got some energy for message boards. hahacastlewood107 said:
It seems to me when EA decides to retire, we are basically giving the job to Hart and that's the reason he has stuck around, right?
I am somewhat ignorant of the landscape but what is the secret sauce with the Campbell coach? They are in regionals every year -- eliminated us in 2019 -- and now look like a host for the first time ever.
All of this sucess in freakin' Buies Creek!
CLTWolf said:I'm late to this thread, I've been out on the west coast for work for a hot minute and just now got some energy for message boards. hahacastlewood107 said:
It seems to me when EA decides to retire, we are basically giving the job to Hart and that's the reason he has stuck around, right?
I am somewhat ignorant of the landscape but what is the secret sauce with the Campbell coach? They are in regionals every year -- eliminated us in 2019 -- and now look like a host for the first time ever.
All of this sucess in freakin' Buies Creek!
Justin Haire has been really good at finding the kids in state that State/unc/Wake/ECU "ignore" and he's also been good at bringing in some really talented JUCOs. The sauce isn't really so secret, he's just a good coach that has good assistants and can recruit. Big South isn't exactly a super tough conference either but they do have some good ball players, regardless.
No way. I think he'd be successful and I'm pretty sure he's turned down some really good opportunities to stay in Raleigh over the years.I40Wolf said:CLTWolf said:I'm late to this thread, I've been out on the west coast for work for a hot minute and just now got some energy for message boards. hahacastlewood107 said:
It seems to me when EA decides to retire, we are basically giving the job to Hart and that's the reason he has stuck around, right?
I am somewhat ignorant of the landscape but what is the secret sauce with the Campbell coach? They are in regionals every year -- eliminated us in 2019 -- and now look like a host for the first time ever.
All of this sucess in freakin' Buies Creek!
Justin Haire has been really good at finding the kids in state that State/unc/Wake/ECU "ignore" and he's also been good at bringing in some really talented JUCOs. The sauce isn't really so secret, he's just a good coach that has good assistants and can recruit. Big South isn't exactly a super tough conference either but they do have some good ball players, regardless.
Would you be upset if Hart took over?