Cthepack said:

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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The same Republicans screaming at democrats after the 2016 election telling them to shut up because Trump won fair and square will be the same ones screaming at democrats that Biden isn't a legit president. The same democrats screaming at republicans saying Trump wasn't a legit candidate will be the same ones screaming at the Republicans that Biden won fair and square. And round and round and round we go.

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In a nut shell why we will never get anything done. It is more about winning than to make improvements for the US citizens. Hate the two party system. Term limits are needed.

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I couldn't agree with you anymore if I could! If the ****ing president has term limits, why not the ****heads in congress?!?! You are right. It doesn't make two ****s who the president is. Nothing will get done that actually benefits ALL Americans. All that will be done is what benefits whatever party is in charge. It hadn't been aboit ALL Americans in 250 years.

jkpackfan said:

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And just like that, Covid is over

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no just a bunch of dumb people. conflating the actions of a few thousand people with the calls of media/scientists/Biden campaign is very disingenuous.

Biden's first statement after several media outlets calling it for him was to say he's creating a Covid taskforce on Monday, but don't let that stop the Daily Caller though...

If the last four years have taught me anything, its that way too many people care who is in the White House day in and day out. I can obviously only speak for myself, but I do my best not to pay attention on the day to day agenda of a President. I still keep up with the big stuff, but I dont read their tweets, I dont hang on to every single press conference, and in general dont let it affect my day to day life. Pretty sure social media is the reason for it (Trumps twitter single handedly cost him the election IMO), but whoever is in the White House doesnt really do anything for me on a day to day basis.

There are obviously downstream affects based on who is in the White House, but thats completely out of my control, so I dont worry about it.

Just an observation

Cthepack said:

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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The same Republicans screaming at democrats after the 2016 election telling them to shut up because Trump won fair and square will be the same ones screaming at democrats that Biden isn't a legit president. The same democrats screaming at republicans saying Trump wasn't a legit candidate will be the same ones screaming at the Republicans that Biden won fair and square. And round and round and round we go.

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In a nut shell why we will never get anything done. It is more about winning than to make improvements for the US citizens. Hate the two party system. Term limits are needed.

---

Just using 25 years as a cut off there are 4 republicans and 3 democrats than have been senators for over 25 years. Patrick Leahy from Vermont has been in the senate for 45 years.

In the house there are 10 democrats and 5 republicans that have been Reps for over 25 years. That's at least 12 different times being elected as a rep. Don Young from Alaska has been a rep for 47 years.

Term limits and (imo) age limits should be instituted. Don Young, Dianne Feinstein and Chuck Grassley are all 87. I don't mean to be ageist but i don't really want 87 year olds to be deciding the future of a country they likely won't be alive to be a part of.

Term limits are SEVERELY needed in Congress and I hope to see them in my lifetime (narrator: he won't).

jadawson said:

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jkpackfan said:

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And just like that, Covid is over

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no just a bunch of dumb people. conflating the actions of a few thousand people with the calls of media/scientists/Biden campaign is very disingenuous.

Biden's first statement after several media outlets calling it for him was to say he's creating a Covid taskforce on Monday, but don't let that stop the Daily Caller though...

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Why does he need a task force? More dem/ government waste.

DrummerboyWolf said:

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PackBacker07 said:

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Pennsylvania called for President-elect Biden. The race is OVER.

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Not true. The media controls nothing. There are votes to be counted or discounted. lawsuits to be filed. No election has been certified yet. You know not of what you speak. The Republican led legislatures in Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania, North Carolina can vote how ever they want. If they feel that the vote was fraudulent then they can elect Trump. They send the electors to vote for President. It's in the Constitution, but I am sure you knew that.

Biden may ultimately win, but he has not won yet just because the media says so.

---

I should thank you. Dumbassery like this is why I have made a killing betting on this election.

I don't mind some hard outlook on people coming here, we don't need an open door. There is a process, you apply and go through it, if you want to immigrate here. There must be a number control. We must help countries people are coming from, so they'll want to stay home, so they see a future there.Traveling is one thing but riding a boat or a plane here and claiming you're an American is another. Go trough the process many do and we can't take everyone, other countries must do their part!

I had a friend commit suicide on Wednesday. He was as good a person that I know or that you know! He was a father, he was a church leader, he was a Deacon and he sang in the choir for ~25 years, he was a hunting and fishing buddy (closer to my brother and dad than me) and he was a Republican. I certainly hope the election was not the last straw! I wish I could have talked to him or even better, my brother could have. He thought my passed dad and mom (Dems) were the best people on earth and they thought the same of him!!! He's had health problems the last 5-6 years and he's struggled and he's hurt and he had been to all kinds of specialist and they could not find the problem. He quit the choir pre-covid, a few months before and he quit walking with his wife because he could no longer do it. I hunted Dove with him last year and myself and him took the toughest part of the field, in the hot sun, because we could hang. We killed the most dove too! We laughed and the guys with the $800 - $3000 shotguns wanted to know what I was shooting with. 1982 Remington 1100, $197+ 4% tax, K-Mart Rocky Mt. with shells from Wal-Mart was the answer; Rex laughed with me. Rex had tried for a long while to get on disability and if anyone needed it, he did. He was disabled and he could not get on. My brother told me that he was the wrong color (white). I knew a painter and his buddy that have been collecting for 35 years (white too); when they got on disability, they each bought a racing go-kart and raced them. I had a cousin about 10 years ago, could not get on. He had diabetes and 1 leg and he ended up with no legs. Sure, he did not take care of himself but he was disabled; it might have been Medicare or Medicaid he could not get on....I can't remember? Treating people the same works both ways. Rest in Peace Rex; if you see mom and dad, tell them hello.

Cthepack said:

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jadawson said:

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jkpackfan said:

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And just like that, Covid is over

---

no just a bunch of dumb people. conflating the actions of a few thousand people with the calls of media/scientists/Biden campaign is very disingenuous.

Biden's first statement after several media outlets calling it for him was to say he's creating a Covid taskforce on Monday, but don't let that stop the Daily Caller though...

---

Why does he need a task force? More dem/ government waste.

---

because he thinks the government needs to do more about it, as he stated all campaign and in debates. If you disagree with him that's fine but this was expected. I was just bringing it up because the tweet seemed to suggest that now that the democrats have won the election that covid would be over as if it was only a campaign tool. That is clearly not true.

Cthepack said:

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ciscopack said:

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When will massive PARDONS start?

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Who do you anticipate will be pardoned? Trump has a ways to go to catch Obama, do you think he will pardon as many as Obama did?

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Donald J. Trump is the answer to question #1. #2, I have no idea?

GoPack2008 said:

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DrummerboyWolf said:

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PackBacker07 said:

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Pennsylvania called for President-elect Biden. The race is OVER.

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Not true. The media controls nothing. There are votes to be counted or discounted. lawsuits to be filed. No election has been certified yet. You know not of what you speak. The Republican led legislatures in Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania, North Carolina can vote how ever they want. If they feel that the vote was fraudulent then they can elect Trump. They send the electors to vote for President. It's in the Constitution, but I am sure you knew that.

Biden may ultimately win, but he has not won yet just because the media says so.

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I should thank you. Dumbassery like this is why I have made a killing betting on this election.

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Nobody believes you.

jadawson said:

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Cthepack said:

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jadawson said:

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jkpackfan said:

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And just like that, Covid is over

---

no just a bunch of dumb people. conflating the actions of a few thousand people with the calls of media/scientists/Biden campaign is very disingenuous.

Biden's first statement after several media outlets calling it for him was to say he's creating a Covid taskforce on Monday, but don't let that stop the Daily Caller though...

---

Why does he need a task force? More dem/ government waste.

---

because he thinks the government needs to do more about it, as he stated all campaign and in debates. If you disagree with him that's fine but this was expected. I was just bringing it up because the tweet seemed to suggest that now that the democrats have won the election that covid would be over as if it was only a campaign tool. That is clearly not true.

---

We also heard that Trump should have used the "playbook" that Joe and Obama left him. Is the playbook not good enough for Joe? Biden is either wasting money or does not have confidence in the playbook, which is it?

jadawson said:

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Cthepack said:

---

jadawson said:

---

jkpackfan said:

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And just like that, Covid is over

---

no just a bunch of dumb people. conflating the actions of a few thousand people with the calls of media/scientists/Biden campaign is very disingenuous.

Biden's first statement after several media outlets calling it for him was to say he's creating a Covid taskforce on Monday, but don't let that stop the Daily Caller though...

---

Why does he need a task force? More dem/ government waste.

---

because he thinks the government needs to do more about it, as he stated all campaign and in debates. If you disagree with him that's fine but this was expected. I was just bringing it up because the tweet seemed to suggest that now that the democrats have won the election that covid would be over as if it was only a campaign tool. That is clearly not true.

---

He stated the whole election: he has no plan! Shouldn't we expect him to have a plan already? Creating a task force tells me he doesn't have a plan.

At the end of the day, my suspicion is no government solution can control this as it really isn't there responsibility to control this. Individuals need to control this by the actions they feel fit their personal situation.

caryking said:

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jadawson said:

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Cthepack said:

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jadawson said:

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jkpackfan said:

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And just like that, Covid is over

---

no just a bunch of dumb people. conflating the actions of a few thousand people with the calls of media/scientists/Biden campaign is very disingenuous.

Biden's first statement after several media outlets calling it for him was to say he's creating a Covid taskforce on Monday, but don't let that stop the Daily Caller though...

---

Why does he need a task force? More dem/ government waste.

---

because he thinks the government needs to do more about it, as he stated all campaign and in debates. If you disagree with him that's fine but this was expected. I was just bringing it up because the tweet seemed to suggest that now that the democrats have won the election that covid would be over as if it was only a campaign tool. That is clearly not true.

---

He stated the whole election: he has no plan! Shouldn't we expect him to have a plan already? Creating a task force tells me he doesn't have a plan.

At the end of the day, my suspicion is no government solution can control this as it really isn't there responsibility to control this. Individuals need to control this by the actions they feel fit their personal situation.

---

He should use the "play book"! I heard as recently as the past two weeks Obama criticizing Trump for not using it, why can't Joe use it?

Cthepack said:

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jadawson said:

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Cthepack said:

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jadawson said:

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jkpackfan said:

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And just like that, Covid is over

---

no just a bunch of dumb people. conflating the actions of a few thousand people with the calls of media/scientists/Biden campaign is very disingenuous.

Biden's first statement after several media outlets calling it for him was to say he's creating a Covid taskforce on Monday, but don't let that stop the Daily Caller though...

---

Why does he need a task force? More dem/ government waste.

---

because he thinks the government needs to do more about it, as he stated all campaign and in debates. If you disagree with him that's fine but this was expected. I was just bringing it up because the tweet seemed to suggest that now that the democrats have won the election that covid would be over as if it was only a campaign tool. That is clearly not true.

---

We also heard that Trump should have used the "playbook" that Joe and Obama left him. Is the playbook not good enough for Joe? Biden is either wasting money or does not have confidence in the playbook, which is it?

---

it's not a "playbook" it was an office with the National Secuirty Council office that was tasked with coordinating with the CDC on how to act if/when a pandemic took place. This was started by Bush in the 2000's as scientists were warning back then that humanity was due for another global pandemic. Obama continued the office during his term and Trump even continued it for the first year of his term. Then it was eliminated along with the CDC being defunded some in 2017/2018 leaving the government with nobody set up to respond to this type of thing.

They did leave documents and plans for the federal government, but Trump didn't use those either and they involved utilizing the offices that Trump eliminated

I have no problem with Trump's tax breaks ending in 2025 or whenever they were. I feel the next president should determine that. Let them own the decisions and implications of their terms.

packgrad said:

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I have no problem with Trump's tax breaks ending in 2025 or whenever they were. I feel the next president should determine that. Let them own the decisions and implications of their terms.

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That's fair, but if that was his thinking then the corporate tax cuts should end then as well.

jadawson said:

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packgrad said:

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I have no problem with Trump's tax breaks ending in 2025 or whenever they were. I feel the next president should determine that. Let them own the decisions and implications of their terms.

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That's fair, but if that was his thinking then the corporate tax cuts should end then as well.

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I agree. I don't know how he could make a permanent decision on that though. Not disagreeing with you that he didn't. Just seems illogical to allow a president to make permanent decisions on tax (again, not saying you're wrong. I truly have no idea).

packgrad said:

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jadawson said:

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packgrad said:

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I have no problem with Trump's tax breaks ending in 2025 or whenever they were. I feel the next president should determine that. Let them own the decisions and implications of their terms.

---

That's fair, but if that was his thinking then the corporate tax cuts should end then as well.

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I agree. I don't know how he could make a permanent decision on that though. Not disagreeing with you that he didn't. Just seems illogical to allow a president to make permanent decisions on tax (again, not saying you're wrong. I truly have no idea).

---

I mean its "permanent" in that there is no scheduled time for the tax cut to end like there is for the individual tax cut. It's can always be changed by a future congress but it would require a new law.

Sorry if my use of "permanent" was misleading just meant to contrast it to the temporary individual one.

jadawson said:

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Cthepack said:

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jadawson said:

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Cthepack said:

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jadawson said:

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jkpackfan said:

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And just like that, Covid is over

---

no just a bunch of dumb people. conflating the actions of a few thousand people with the calls of media/scientists/Biden campaign is very disingenuous.

Biden's first statement after several media outlets calling it for him was to say he's creating a Covid taskforce on Monday, but don't let that stop the Daily Caller though...

---

Why does he need a task force? More dem/ government waste.

---

because he thinks the government needs to do more about it, as he stated all campaign and in debates. If you disagree with him that's fine but this was expected. I was just bringing it up because the tweet seemed to suggest that now that the democrats have won the election that covid would be over as if it was only a campaign tool. That is clearly not true.

---

We also heard that Trump should have used the "playbook" that Joe and Obama left him. Is the playbook not good enough for Joe? Biden is either wasting money or does not have confidence in the playbook, which is it?

---

it's not a "playbook" it was an office with the National Secuirty Council office that was tasked with coordinating with the CDC on how to act if/when a pandemic took place. This was started by Bush in the 2000's as scientists were warning back then that humanity was due for another global pandemic. Obama continued the office during his term and Trump even continued it for the first year of his term. Then it was eliminated along with the CDC being defunded some in 2017/2018 leaving the government with nobody set up to respond to this type of thing.

They did leave documents and plans for the federal government, but Trump didn't use those either and they involved utilizing the offices that Trump eliminated

---

No. Obama specifically referenced a 70 page pandemic "playbook". Google it. But directly to your answer why would it take a task force to reinstate an "Office"? Waste already starting before he even takes office. If they knew what to do (as Joe and Obama have claimed) well just go and do it. Stop the typical government approach!!

Cthepack said:

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jadawson said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

jadawson said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

jadawson said:

---

jkpackfan said:

---

And just like that, Covid is over

---

no just a bunch of dumb people. conflating the actions of a few thousand people with the calls of media/scientists/Biden campaign is very disingenuous.

Biden's first statement after several media outlets calling it for him was to say he's creating a Covid taskforce on Monday, but don't let that stop the Daily Caller though...

---

Why does he need a task force? More dem/ government waste.

---

because he thinks the government needs to do more about it, as he stated all campaign and in debates. If you disagree with him that's fine but this was expected. I was just bringing it up because the tweet seemed to suggest that now that the democrats have won the election that covid would be over as if it was only a campaign tool. That is clearly not true.

---

We also heard that Trump should have used the "playbook" that Joe and Obama left him. Is the playbook not good enough for Joe? Biden is either wasting money or does not have confidence in the playbook, which is it?

---

it's not a "playbook" it was an office with the National Secuirty Council office that was tasked with coordinating with the CDC on how to act if/when a pandemic took place. This was started by Bush in the 2000's as scientists were warning back then that humanity was due for another global pandemic. Obama continued the office during his term and Trump even continued it for the first year of his term. Then it was eliminated along with the CDC being defunded some in 2017/2018 leaving the government with nobody set up to respond to this type of thing.

They did leave documents and plans for the federal government, but Trump didn't use those either and they involved utilizing the offices that Trump eliminated

---

No. Obama specifically referenced a 70 page pandemic "playbook". Google it. But directly to your answer why would it take a task force to reinstate an "Office"? Waste already starting before he even takes office. If they knew what to do (as Joe and Obama have claimed) well just go and do it. Stop the typical government approach!!

---

well for starters he's not president yet....

He can't do anything until january. This taskforce isn't going to be able to do anything but plan until january because they have no official power. Do you not understand how election cycles work?

And there's no taxpayer money being spent because he's not president, how is it waste?

President-elect Biden about to give his victory speech momentarily.

jadawson said:

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Cthepack said:

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jadawson said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

jadawson said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

jadawson said:

---

jkpackfan said:

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And just like that, Covid is over

---

no just a bunch of dumb people. conflating the actions of a few thousand people with the calls of media/scientists/Biden campaign is very disingenuous.

Biden's first statement after several media outlets calling it for him was to say he's creating a Covid taskforce on Monday, but don't let that stop the Daily Caller though...

---

Why does he need a task force? More dem/ government waste.

---

because he thinks the government needs to do more about it, as he stated all campaign and in debates. If you disagree with him that's fine but this was expected. I was just bringing it up because the tweet seemed to suggest that now that the democrats have won the election that covid would be over as if it was only a campaign tool. That is clearly not true.

---

We also heard that Trump should have used the "playbook" that Joe and Obama left him. Is the playbook not good enough for Joe? Biden is either wasting money or does not have confidence in the playbook, which is it?

---

it's not a "playbook" it was an office with the National Secuirty Council office that was tasked with coordinating with the CDC on how to act if/when a pandemic took place. This was started by Bush in the 2000's as scientists were warning back then that humanity was due for another global pandemic. Obama continued the office during his term and Trump even continued it for the first year of his term. Then it was eliminated along with the CDC being defunded some in 2017/2018 leaving the government with nobody set up to respond to this type of thing.

They did leave documents and plans for the federal government, but Trump didn't use those either and they involved utilizing the offices that Trump eliminated

---

No. Obama specifically referenced a 70 page pandemic "playbook". Google it. But directly to your answer why would it take a task force to reinstate an "Office"? Waste already starting before he even takes office. If they knew what to do (as Joe and Obama have claimed) well just go and do it. Stop the typical government approach!!

---

well for starters he's not president yet....

He can't do anything until january. This taskforce isn't going to be able to do anything but plan until january because they have no official power. Do you not understand how election cycles work?

And there's no taxpayer money being spent because he's not president, how is it waste?

---

You think it is ok to create a task force when you have been saying there is a playbook and we know what to do? I think that is waste if it happens now or in Jan.

Civilized said:

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Cthepack said:

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jadawson said:

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Cthepack said:

---

jadawson said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

jadawson said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

jadawson said:

---

jkpackfan said:

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And just like that, Covid is over

---

no just a bunch of dumb people. conflating the actions of a few thousand people with the calls of media/scientists/Biden campaign is very disingenuous.

Biden's first statement after several media outlets calling it for him was to say he's creating a Covid taskforce on Monday, but don't let that stop the Daily Caller though...

---

Why does he need a task force? More dem/ government waste.

---

because he thinks the government needs to do more about it, as he stated all campaign and in debates. If you disagree with him that's fine but this was expected. I was just bringing it up because the tweet seemed to suggest that now that the democrats have won the election that covid would be over as if it was only a campaign tool. That is clearly not true.

---

We also heard that Trump should have used the "playbook" that Joe and Obama left him. Is the playbook not good enough for Joe? Biden is either wasting money or does not have confidence in the playbook, which is it?

---

it's not a "playbook" it was an office with the National Secuirty Council office that was tasked with coordinating with the CDC on how to act if/when a pandemic took place. This was started by Bush in the 2000's as scientists were warning back then that humanity was due for another global pandemic. Obama continued the office during his term and Trump even continued it for the first year of his term. Then it was eliminated along with the CDC being defunded some in 2017/2018 leaving the government with nobody set up to respond to this type of thing.

They did leave documents and plans for the federal government, but Trump didn't use those either and they involved utilizing the offices that Trump eliminated

---

No. Obama specifically referenced a 70 page pandemic "playbook". Google it. But directly to your answer why would it take a task force to reinstate an "Office"? Waste already starting before he even takes office. If they knew what to do (as Joe and Obama have claimed) well just go and do it. Stop the typical government approach!!

---

well for starters he's not president yet....

He can't do anything until january. This taskforce isn't going to be able to do anything but plan until january because they have no official power. Do you not understand how election cycles work?

And there's no taxpayer money being spent because he's not president, how is it waste?

---

You think it is ok to create a task force when you have been saying there is a playbook and we know what to do? I think that is waste if it happens now or in Jan.

---

If you're planning to micromanage Biden's tenure to this degree you're gonna be exhausted in 4 years.

---

Not at all. What was the biggest topic Biden campaigned on? I say it was how trump handled the pandemic. Do you not agree? Funny how now the biggest point is he talked about is micro managing. Biden was the one that made it clear he required a task force now that he is president elect. As a candidate he had a play book and already knew what to do.

Cthepack said:

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Civilized said:

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Cthepack said:

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jadawson said:

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Cthepack said:

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jadawson said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

jadawson said:

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Cthepack said:

---

jadawson said:

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jkpackfan said:

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And just like that, Covid is over

---

no just a bunch of dumb people. conflating the actions of a few thousand people with the calls of media/scientists/Biden campaign is very disingenuous.

Biden's first statement after several media outlets calling it for him was to say he's creating a Covid taskforce on Monday, but don't let that stop the Daily Caller though...

---

Why does he need a task force? More dem/ government waste.

---

because he thinks the government needs to do more about it, as he stated all campaign and in debates. If you disagree with him that's fine but this was expected. I was just bringing it up because the tweet seemed to suggest that now that the democrats have won the election that covid would be over as if it was only a campaign tool. That is clearly not true.

---

We also heard that Trump should have used the "playbook" that Joe and Obama left him. Is the playbook not good enough for Joe? Biden is either wasting money or does not have confidence in the playbook, which is it?

---

it's not a "playbook" it was an office with the National Secuirty Council office that was tasked with coordinating with the CDC on how to act if/when a pandemic took place. This was started by Bush in the 2000's as scientists were warning back then that humanity was due for another global pandemic. Obama continued the office during his term and Trump even continued it for the first year of his term. Then it was eliminated along with the CDC being defunded some in 2017/2018 leaving the government with nobody set up to respond to this type of thing.

They did leave documents and plans for the federal government, but Trump didn't use those either and they involved utilizing the offices that Trump eliminated

---

No. Obama specifically referenced a 70 page pandemic "playbook". Google it. But directly to your answer why would it take a task force to reinstate an "Office"? Waste already starting before he even takes office. If they knew what to do (as Joe and Obama have claimed) well just go and do it. Stop the typical government approach!!

---

well for starters he's not president yet....

He can't do anything until january. This taskforce isn't going to be able to do anything but plan until january because they have no official power. Do you not understand how election cycles work?

And there's no taxpayer money being spent because he's not president, how is it waste?

---

You think it is ok to create a task force when you have been saying there is a playbook and we know what to do? I think that is waste if it happens now or in Jan.

---

If you're planning to micromanage Biden's tenure to this degree you're gonna be exhausted in 4 years.

---

Not at all. What was the biggest topic Biden campaigned on? I say it was how trump handled the pandemic. Do you not agree? Funny how now the biggest point is he talked about is micro managing. Biden was the one that made it clear he required a task force now that he is president elect. As a candidate he had a play book and already knew what to do.

---

He is doing what he said he would do, and that's listen to the experts and science.

So why did he continue to criticize trump about not following the playbook? Joe is not going to? Or it was not complete? No other way to look at it.

I would say it is total waste because if you know what to do you do not need a task force. Both Obama and Biden have said they know what to do.

I was no fan of either candidate. I am not a pub or a dem. Part of what I do is make government contracts more efficient. I work first hand with companies that supply the government. The waste is incredible. The task force approach is typical government waste. Bottom line just go out and get it done like private companies have to.

Cthepack said:

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I would say it is total waste because if you know what to do you do not need a task force. Both Obama and Biden have said they know what to do.

I was no fan of either candidate. I am not a pub or a dem. Part of what I do is make government contracts more efficient. I work first hand with companies that supply the government. The waste is incredible. The task force approach is typical government waste. Bottom line just go out and get it done like private companies have to.

---

He's not the government so he can't be a part of "typical government waste" and he can't "get it done" because he's not the president. This is literally all he can do until January. I don't even know what you're complaining about anymore.

So he is not going to assemble a task force? I understand he is going to as the first thing he needs to do. Pretty simple concept to understand.

He and Obama campaigned against trump on not using the playbook. Playbook again is a typical government terminology. But Joe is not going to use the playbook. He is going to add waste and start over. Seems pretty counter intuitive to say there is a playbook, critique others for not using it, then do not use it yourself.