ELECTION 2020

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Tobaccoroadsportscafe
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Civilized said:

IseWolf22 said:

Packchem91 said:

jadawson said:

This election does not appear to have been a rebuke of the republican party. They still have a good chance of maintaining control of the Senate or atleast being evenly split, and they picked up seats in the House.

This is just a rebuke against Donald Trump and his divisive rhetoric and lack of a moral compass. There is nothing inspiring about Joe Biden as a candidate even for Democrats. He is not the reason there is a record number of ballots this election and nobody was excited to vote for him. He (will likely) win because he's not Donald Trump and people are tired of Trump and willing to come out in droves to vote for anyone that is not him. Much like in 2016 I think part of Trump's advantage was that he was not Hillary Clinton with all of her baggage, the same is true of him this time around.

The republican party just needs to do some self-analysis as to the direction they want to go. If they move back towards the center and get rid of the QAnon/conspiracy fringe that is seeping into control then i think they will find a lot more independents willing to go their way. Whether that happens or not is up in the air, they seem pretty satisfied with where they are right now outside of the results they are disputing.
Post of the day. Even as a Republican, I am happy to be rid of Trump. He's disgusted me his entire career, was disappointed he was our nominee 4 years ago, and though I'm 100% glad Hillary was not our president, Trump has been to divisive to be put into the most important job in the world.

I hope Biden will reach out across the aisle, and I hope the GOP will find some viable young candidates who aren't there to appease the far right wings of the party. I'd much rather steal some of the moderate left than the far right.

And the evangelicals need to line up behind someone with morals next time.
There is going to be post mortems in both parties and their will be major fights over the direction of the party.

The close loss gives Trumpism a leg to stand on when they argue that Republicans should embrace nationalism, and the culture war. Serious voices on the right want to reject classical liberalism and embrace us vs. them tactics to "win" the direction of the country. Trump isn't going away. Don Jr. will try to stay a voice in the party, and might run in 2024 or possibly for something like a senate seat. Cotton, Hawley, Gaetz, etc. will try to stay in this mold.
Instead the GOP should embrace moderates, minorities, and libertarians. Pursue small government solutions and focus on solutions that make the system more fair for everyone. Hailey, Kaisch, and others will represent that wing.

Democrats will also have their own series of fights. Already the Bernie wing is blaming Biden and moderate democrats for not winning the Senate. They are moral crusaders and wont just fall in line behind Pelosi.
100%

Heard a recap yesterday of a House Democrat conference call that lasted over three hours and was incredibly contentious. Huge schism between the far left socialism wing and mainstream/moderates. Basically the moderates were absolutely livid the right was able to so successfully seize on the anti-socialism theme so successfully up and down-ballot. The right being able to do so clearly cost the Dems the Senate and a more resounding House majority. It was actually discussed that no one in the party should ever use the word 'socialism' again.

There's a recognition with moderate Dems that far left, socialism rhetoric damages the party brand.

Dems have a tough slog ahead but theirs is a marriage of convenience to a large extent; the party has always been more of a coalition of partially overlapping interests rather than a highly unified base.

This election may quickly be viewed by the right as best case scenario. They get rid of their Trump problem, maintain control of the Senate (probably), and win back a meaningful number of House seats so Biden is quite limited in his ability to facilitate the left's agenda from the Oval Office. Regroup, and emerge stronger and more united in 2024.


Civilized with the truth again.
jkpackfan
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SexualChocolate said:

After all the lawsuits and fraud is investigated, I hope Trump concedes. Gore eventually conceded then took it back then conceded again, lol. A peaceful transfer of power is essential for this country to move forward.
You mean like you guys did in 2016?
packgrad
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jkpackfan said:

SexualChocolate said:

After all the lawsuits and fraud is investigated, I hope Trump concedes. Gore eventually conceded then took it back then conceded again, lol. A peaceful transfer of power is essential for this country to move forward.
You mean like you guys did in 2016?


Exactly. One day I hope Democrats and leftist "Independents" will expect as much out of Democrats as they do Republicans
jadawson
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jkpackfan said:

SexualChocolate said:

After all the lawsuits and fraud is investigated, I hope Trump concedes. Gore eventually conceded then took it back then conceded again, lol. A peaceful transfer of power is essential for this country to move forward.
You mean like you guys did in 2016?


What about the transition wasn't peaceful? Obama left office, trump moved in, Hillary conceded. I'm missing your point. Obama showed up to Trumps inauguration, as did Hillary. Do you think Trump will go to Biden's?
jkpackfan
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Sure but was anything but peaceful. The dems and the media have been on him since day 1 with the Russia conspiracy bs.
PackBacker07
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Y'all means ALL.
jadawson
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jkpackfan said:

Sure but was anything but peaceful. The dems and the media have been on him since day 1 with the Russia conspiracy bs.


Ok, but "peaceful transfer of power" is a defined term for democratic governments and how a president is treated by the media or a party has nothing at all to with it.

I would also bring up the lies about Obama from fox and others throughout his presidency but that's for a different argument
Cthepack
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What was the Russia probe about? I thought it was how they interfered to help Trump win the election.
packgrad
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Was the illegal spying on the Trump campaign part of the peaceful transition?
jadawson
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Cthepack said:

What was the Russia probe about? I thought it was how they interfered to help Trump win the election.


It was about whether Russia interfered in the election at all, which a bipartisan committee determined they at least attempted to. Whether it was in cahoots with the trump campaign to get him elected is the part that wasn't proven
Packchem91
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IseWolf22 said:

Packchem91 said:

GoPack2008 said:

Packchem91 said:

Its amazing to think back -- the South Carolina (which of course is a Red state) primary -- Joe Biden is dead in the water, flubbing his campaign, no momentum, behind the socialist wing of the party.

The Democratic party convinces all the other moderate candidates to suddenly drop out before Super Tuesday....because Biden they think is still the best candidate to beat Trump, and they have to stop Saunders, who would have never beaten Trump....and voila.

Its kind of ironic now that all the Left / Media is calling out Trump for trying to suppress the vote. They did pretty much the same thing by pulling all the candidates months ago. But I guess as long as its not Trump, its all good?
Wha?

The evidence was clear that Biden was going to romp the rest of the way. Bernie's claim was he would drive turnout, but he wasn't doing that in the primaries.

Consolidating the party behind a single nominee is not...even remotely analogous to voter suppression.

Voter suppression is about making it harder to vote, for example closing polling places, understaffing/underfunding polling places in specific areas. Candidates agreeing to drop out and consolidate behind one nominee is none of that.
How was it clear he was going to be the candidate? He'd struggled in 3 primaries before doing well in one?

I get its not the same as voter suppression -- but its certainly a powerful entity taking away diversity of vote from the voters to ensure the guy they wanted was going to be the primary choice.


DNC learned lessons from Trump's 2016 takeover of the GOP. Trump never had 50%+ support in the primaries, but he racked up wins against a fractured field with a solid base. If other candidates had cleared out earlier, he likely would not have won the nomination.
If you're a party official, it's completely reasonable to realize that Bernie is on track to do the same thing, and have a sit down with the moderate candidates. Discuss their chances and convince them they don't want their candidacy to end with Bernie as the nominee.
And I don't disagree with that approach frankly -- and heck knows, I wish GOP had done same 4 years ago.

But lets not act (not you, just in general) like Dem voters further down the line were given an equal chance to vote on the candidates --- while I'm sure some would have dropped out AFTER Super Tuesday, lets not act like those candidates dropped out on their own accord. They were pretty much forced out --- and now will likely get plum positions.

And thats the way it works....and while that doesn't live up to "voter suppression", its a far cry from allowing the primary voters to make their full choice?

Ultimately, just like I believe 90% of college sports fans are identical regardless of whom they support....I believe politicians -- and those in charge who "make the decisions" -- are as well.

Trump is most certainly one of those who is a horrible exception.

Cthepack
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It was continually reported by the media that trump was involved with the Russians. Hell the person he ran against continues to say she was cheated and trump was involved.
jadawson
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packgrad said:

Was the illegal spying on the Trump campaign part of the peaceful transition?


The FBI monitored carter page during the election and there was no involvement from Obama. Just because trump says Obama ordered it doesn't make it true

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-spying-trump-campaign/
Packchem91
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IseWolf22 said:

Packchem91 said:

jadawson said:

This election does not appear to have been a rebuke of the republican party. They still have a good chance of maintaining control of the Senate or atleast being evenly split, and they picked up seats in the House.

This is just a rebuke against Donald Trump and his divisive rhetoric and lack of a moral compass. There is nothing inspiring about Joe Biden as a candidate even for Democrats. He is not the reason there is a record number of ballots this election and nobody was excited to vote for him. He (will likely) win because he's not Donald Trump and people are tired of Trump and willing to come out in droves to vote for anyone that is not him. Much like in 2016 I think part of Trump's advantage was that he was not Hillary Clinton with all of her baggage, the same is true of him this time around.

The republican party just needs to do some self-analysis as to the direction they want to go. If they move back towards the center and get rid of the QAnon/conspiracy fringe that is seeping into control then i think they will find a lot more independents willing to go their way. Whether that happens or not is up in the air, they seem pretty satisfied with where they are right now outside of the results they are disputing.
Post of the day. Even as a Republican, I am happy to be rid of Trump. He's disgusted me his entire career, was disappointed he was our nominee 4 years ago, and though I'm 100% glad Hillary was not our president, Trump has been to divisive to be put into the most important job in the world.

I hope Biden will reach out across the aisle, and I hope the GOP will find some viable young candidates who aren't there to appease the far right wings of the party. I'd much rather steal some of the moderate left than the far right.

And the evangelicals need to line up behind someone with morals next time.
There is going to be post mortems in both parties and their will be major fights over the direction of the party.

The close loss gives Trumpism a leg to stand on when they argue that Republicans should embrace nationalism, and the culture war. Serious voices on the right want to reject classical liberalism and embrace us vs. them tactics to "win" the direction of the country. Trump isn't going away. Don Jr. will try to stay a voice in the party, and might run in 2024 or possibly for something like a senate seat. Cotton, Hawley, Gaetz, etc. will try to stay in this mold.
Instead the GOP should embrace moderates, minorities, and libertarians. Pursue small government solutions and focus on solutions that make the system more fair for everyone. Hailey, Kaisch, and others will represent that wing.

Democrats will also have their own series of fights. Already the Bernie wing is blaming Biden and moderate democrats for not winning the Senate. They are moral crusaders and wont just fall in line behind Pelosi.
Whats crazy to me is --- Trump was so stupid, he really p'd away a golden opportunity to actually do something very few, if any, recent GOP candidates have been able to do --- make major inroads with black, and the hugely growing Hispanic voters.

I mean, pre-covid, he absolutely could point to the rising tide theory giving POC jobs, and better jobs. But his stubbornness to be painted into a racist corner with the far right wing, made sure most POC would never vote for him. Just simple things like word choices, carefully worded statements, a couple of reach outs across the aisle....and I think he would have gained a ton of votes from blacks.
Instead, most still saw him as THE shining example of the problem in America. And its those votes --- in surely record volumes -- that have ended his tenure.

But...something in messaging, for the GOP to build on.
ciscopack
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Steve Williams said:

On the one hand I have to give Trump credit. On a national scale you basically had Trump, Carlson, Hannity, Ingrahm and Limbaugh versus Twitter, Google, Yahoo, Apple, MSN, CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, NPR, MSNBC and some of Fox. The deck was so stacked against him and still, with anti-Trump rhetoric shoved down the throats of Americans for the last four years, he still damned near won. I voted almost straight Republican despite being a registered Democrat simply because I don't want a nation where talking heads and media can dictate the direction of our country.
I could ask my brother but I'm letting him cool off. What do you do during the Primaries? Do you vote for Democrats who you think can't win? I always wondered about people who don't have a party do during Primaries....I assume they just Vote in the general election?

Here I was thinking for a long, long while, Twitter and Facebook were allowing Trump to spread his lies? I turn to Newsmax late at night at times to catch some WWII footage...when the drivel has stopped. If Trump had really worked to defeat Covid.....more people would have jobs, more normal life would be going on today (instead of a 2nd record day of Covid cases), more people would be living and he'd be the President for the next 4 years. Fox ain't for Trump? Support these...


Packchem91
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Civilized said:

IseWolf22 said:

Packchem91 said:

jadawson said:

This election does not appear to have been a rebuke of the republican party. They still have a good chance of maintaining control of the Senate or atleast being evenly split, and they picked up seats in the House.

This is just a rebuke against Donald Trump and his divisive rhetoric and lack of a moral compass. There is nothing inspiring about Joe Biden as a candidate even for Democrats. He is not the reason there is a record number of ballots this election and nobody was excited to vote for him. He (will likely) win because he's not Donald Trump and people are tired of Trump and willing to come out in droves to vote for anyone that is not him. Much like in 2016 I think part of Trump's advantage was that he was not Hillary Clinton with all of her baggage, the same is true of him this time around.

The republican party just needs to do some self-analysis as to the direction they want to go. If they move back towards the center and get rid of the QAnon/conspiracy fringe that is seeping into control then i think they will find a lot more independents willing to go their way. Whether that happens or not is up in the air, they seem pretty satisfied with where they are right now outside of the results they are disputing.
Post of the day. Even as a Republican, I am happy to be rid of Trump. He's disgusted me his entire career, was disappointed he was our nominee 4 years ago, and though I'm 100% glad Hillary was not our president, Trump has been to divisive to be put into the most important job in the world.

I hope Biden will reach out across the aisle, and I hope the GOP will find some viable young candidates who aren't there to appease the far right wings of the party. I'd much rather steal some of the moderate left than the far right.

And the evangelicals need to line up behind someone with morals next time.
There is going to be post mortems in both parties and their will be major fights over the direction of the party.

The close loss gives Trumpism a leg to stand on when they argue that Republicans should embrace nationalism, and the culture war. Serious voices on the right want to reject classical liberalism and embrace us vs. them tactics to "win" the direction of the country. Trump isn't going away. Don Jr. will try to stay a voice in the party, and might run in 2024 or possibly for something like a senate seat. Cotton, Hawley, Gaetz, etc. will try to stay in this mold.
Instead the GOP should embrace moderates, minorities, and libertarians. Pursue small government solutions and focus on solutions that make the system more fair for everyone. Hailey, Kaisch, and others will represent that wing.

Democrats will also have their own series of fights. Already the Bernie wing is blaming Biden and moderate democrats for not winning the Senate. They are moral crusaders and wont just fall in line behind Pelosi.
100%

Heard a recap yesterday of a House Democrat conference call that lasted over three hours and was incredibly contentious. Huge schism between the far left socialism wing and mainstream/moderates. Basically the moderates were absolutely livid the right was able to so successfully seize on the anti-socialism theme so successfully up and down-ballot. The right being able to do so clearly cost the Dems the Senate and a more resounding House majority. It was actually discussed that no one in the party should ever use the word 'socialism' again.

There's a recognition with moderate Dems that far left, socialism rhetoric damages the party brand.

Dems have a tough slog ahead but theirs is a marriage of convenience to a large extent; the party has always been more of a coalition of partially overlapping interests rather than a highly unified base.

This election may quickly be viewed by the right as best case scenario. They get rid of their Trump problem, maintain control of the Senate (probably), and win back a meaningful number of House seats so Biden is quite limited in his ability to facilitate the left's agenda from the Oval Office. Regroup, and emerge stronger and more united in 2024.
Agreed. I heard Chris Wallace say the other night that it was probably best also for Biden that he lost the Senate. And while that sounds crazy, his point was, it was Biden's nature to be moderate. If he owned both houses, he would be much more easily pulled far left on agenda. Instead, to get anything passed, he would have to compromise more to the middle....which is where he wanted to be anyway.
IseWolf22
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Packchem91 said:

IseWolf22 said:

Packchem91 said:

GoPack2008 said:

Packchem91 said:

Its amazing to think back -- the South Carolina (which of course is a Red state) primary -- Joe Biden is dead in the water, flubbing his campaign, no momentum, behind the socialist wing of the party.

The Democratic party convinces all the other moderate candidates to suddenly drop out before Super Tuesday....because Biden they think is still the best candidate to beat Trump, and they have to stop Saunders, who would have never beaten Trump....and voila.

Its kind of ironic now that all the Left / Media is calling out Trump for trying to suppress the vote. They did pretty much the same thing by pulling all the candidates months ago. But I guess as long as its not Trump, its all good?
Wha?

The evidence was clear that Biden was going to romp the rest of the way. Bernie's claim was he would drive turnout, but he wasn't doing that in the primaries.

Consolidating the party behind a single nominee is not...even remotely analogous to voter suppression.

Voter suppression is about making it harder to vote, for example closing polling places, understaffing/underfunding polling places in specific areas. Candidates agreeing to drop out and consolidate behind one nominee is none of that.
How was it clear he was going to be the candidate? He'd struggled in 3 primaries before doing well in one?

I get its not the same as voter suppression -- but its certainly a powerful entity taking away diversity of vote from the voters to ensure the guy they wanted was going to be the primary choice.


DNC learned lessons from Trump's 2016 takeover of the GOP. Trump never had 50%+ support in the primaries, but he racked up wins against a fractured field with a solid base. If other candidates had cleared out earlier, he likely would not have won the nomination.
If you're a party official, it's completely reasonable to realize that Bernie is on track to do the same thing, and have a sit down with the moderate candidates. Discuss their chances and convince them they don't want their candidacy to end with Bernie as the nominee.
And I don't disagree with that approach frankly -- and heck knows, I wish GOP had done same 4 years ago.

But lets not act (not you, just in general) like Dem voters further down the line were given an equal chance to vote on the candidates --- while I'm sure some would have dropped out AFTER Super Tuesday, lets not act like those candidates dropped out on their own accord. They were pretty much forced out --- and now will likely get plum positions.

And thats the way it works....and while that doesn't live up to "voter suppression", its a far cry from allowing the primary voters to make their full choice?

Ultimately, just like I believe 90% of college sports fans are identical regardless of whom they support....I believe politicians -- and those in charge who "make the decisions" -- are as well.

Trump is most certainly one of those who is a horrible exception.


I mean if you're really advocating to give voters a full range of choices that's great. I'd love that.

How about we start by allowing any candidate on all 50 ballots to participate in at least one presidential debate without an arbitrary 15% polling threshold (when most polls only include 2 Reps and Dems)
Let's reform our system and move to something like ranked choice voting which allows people to actually vote their conscious.
jkpackfan
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jadawson said:

jkpackfan said:

Sure but was anything but peaceful. The dems and the media have been on him since day 1 with the Russia conspiracy bs.


Ok, but "peaceful transfer of power" is a defined term for democratic governments and how a president is treated by the media or a party has nothing at all to with it.

I would also bring up the lies about Obama from fox and others throughout his presidency but that's for a different argument
Lol but but Obama.

Obama basically had a couple of people spreading this while Trump has had almost every mainstream network and journalist in the country against him since day one...Not even close to being the same.

I've gotten off topic with this more than I intended to.
jkpackfan
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IseWolf22 said:

Packchem91 said:

IseWolf22 said:

Packchem91 said:

GoPack2008 said:

Packchem91 said:

Its amazing to think back -- the South Carolina (which of course is a Red state) primary -- Joe Biden is dead in the water, flubbing his campaign, no momentum, behind the socialist wing of the party.

The Democratic party convinces all the other moderate candidates to suddenly drop out before Super Tuesday....because Biden they think is still the best candidate to beat Trump, and they have to stop Saunders, who would have never beaten Trump....and voila.

Its kind of ironic now that all the Left / Media is calling out Trump for trying to suppress the vote. They did pretty much the same thing by pulling all the candidates months ago. But I guess as long as its not Trump, its all good?
Wha?

The evidence was clear that Biden was going to romp the rest of the way. Bernie's claim was he would drive turnout, but he wasn't doing that in the primaries.

Consolidating the party behind a single nominee is not...even remotely analogous to voter suppression.

Voter suppression is about making it harder to vote, for example closing polling places, understaffing/underfunding polling places in specific areas. Candidates agreeing to drop out and consolidate behind one nominee is none of that.
How was it clear he was going to be the candidate? He'd struggled in 3 primaries before doing well in one?

I get its not the same as voter suppression -- but its certainly a powerful entity taking away diversity of vote from the voters to ensure the guy they wanted was going to be the primary choice.


DNC learned lessons from Trump's 2016 takeover of the GOP. Trump never had 50%+ support in the primaries, but he racked up wins against a fractured field with a solid base. If other candidates had cleared out earlier, he likely would not have won the nomination.
If you're a party official, it's completely reasonable to realize that Bernie is on track to do the same thing, and have a sit down with the moderate candidates. Discuss their chances and convince them they don't want their candidacy to end with Bernie as the nominee.
And I don't disagree with that approach frankly -- and heck knows, I wish GOP had done same 4 years ago.

But lets not act (not you, just in general) like Dem voters further down the line were given an equal chance to vote on the candidates --- while I'm sure some would have dropped out AFTER Super Tuesday, lets not act like those candidates dropped out on their own accord. They were pretty much forced out --- and now will likely get plum positions.

And thats the way it works....and while that doesn't live up to "voter suppression", its a far cry from allowing the primary voters to make their full choice?

Ultimately, just like I believe 90% of college sports fans are identical regardless of whom they support....I believe politicians -- and those in charge who "make the decisions" -- are as well.

Trump is most certainly one of those who is a horrible exception.


I mean if you're really advocating to give voters a full range of choices that's great. I'd love that.

How about we start by allowing any candidate on all 50 ballots to participate in at least one presidential debate without an arbitrary 15% polling threshold (when most polls only include 2 Reps and Dems)
Let's reform our system and move to something like ranked choice voting which allows people to actually vote their conscious and.
Definitely agree with that. The 2 party system is killing us.
IseWolf22
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Packchem91 said:

IseWolf22 said:

Packchem91 said:

jadawson said:

This election does not appear to have been a rebuke of the republican party. They still have a good chance of maintaining control of the Senate or atleast being evenly split, and they picked up seats in the House.

This is just a rebuke against Donald Trump and his divisive rhetoric and lack of a moral compass. There is nothing inspiring about Joe Biden as a candidate even for Democrats. He is not the reason there is a record number of ballots this election and nobody was excited to vote for him. He (will likely) win because he's not Donald Trump and people are tired of Trump and willing to come out in droves to vote for anyone that is not him. Much like in 2016 I think part of Trump's advantage was that he was not Hillary Clinton with all of her baggage, the same is true of him this time around.

The republican party just needs to do some self-analysis as to the direction they want to go. If they move back towards the center and get rid of the QAnon/conspiracy fringe that is seeping into control then i think they will find a lot more independents willing to go their way. Whether that happens or not is up in the air, they seem pretty satisfied with where they are right now outside of the results they are disputing.
Post of the day. Even as a Republican, I am happy to be rid of Trump. He's disgusted me his entire career, was disappointed he was our nominee 4 years ago, and though I'm 100% glad Hillary was not our president, Trump has been to divisive to be put into the most important job in the world.

I hope Biden will reach out across the aisle, and I hope the GOP will find some viable young candidates who aren't there to appease the far right wings of the party. I'd much rather steal some of the moderate left than the far right.

And the evangelicals need to line up behind someone with morals next time.
There is going to be post mortems in both parties and their will be major fights over the direction of the party.

The close loss gives Trumpism a leg to stand on when they argue that Republicans should embrace nationalism, and the culture war. Serious voices on the right want to reject classical liberalism and embrace us vs. them tactics to "win" the direction of the country. Trump isn't going away. Don Jr. will try to stay a voice in the party, and might run in 2024 or possibly for something like a senate seat. Cotton, Hawley, Gaetz, etc. will try to stay in this mold.
Instead the GOP should embrace moderates, minorities, and libertarians. Pursue small government solutions and focus on solutions that make the system more fair for everyone. Hailey, Kaisch, and others will represent that wing.

Democrats will also have their own series of fights. Already the Bernie wing is blaming Biden and moderate democrats for not winning the Senate. They are moral crusaders and wont just fall in line behind Pelosi.
Whats crazy to me is --- Trump was so stupid, he really p'd away a golden opportunity to actually do something very few, if any, recent GOP candidates have been able to do --- make major inroads with black, and the hugely growing Hispanic voters.

I mean, pre-covid, he absolutely could point to the rising tide theory giving POC jobs, and better jobs. But his stubbornness to be painted into a racist corner with the far right wing, made sure most POC would never vote for him. Just simple things like word choices, carefully worded statements, a couple of reach outs across the aisle....and I think he would have gained a ton of votes from blacks.
Instead, most still saw him as THE shining example of the problem in America. And its those votes --- in surely record volumes -- that have ended his tenure.

But...something in messaging, for the GOP to build on.
Look back at 2016. Trump came into power with all 3 branches of government. The 2018 senate map was very favorable. If Trump actually made progress on pulling us out of the middle east, passed healthcare reform that wasn't just a repeal without a replacement, forcefully disavowed white nationalists, etc, his entire term looks completely different.
But that's on Trump. He had the votes and couldn't get anything done besides tax reform. And tax reform would have been much more popular if he hadn't cut the top rates (Maybe we could have reduced the deficit). He had a revolving door at cabinet which further watered down his agenda. That's lack of leadership and decision making
packgrad
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Dan always a voice of reason. Edit to add. There's a subsequent tweet that I thought would post as well. Oh well, click and you can see it.

Civilized
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If he thinks these irregularities have been flagrant, I'd be curious to understand what irregularities he considers normal.
PackBacker07
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Trumpertons are taking this well.

Y'all means ALL.
packgrad
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Civilized said:

If he thinks these irregularities have been flagrant, I'd be curious to understand what irregularities he considers normal.


I tend to think he knows more about the situation than you do.
packgrad
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PackBacker07 said:

Trumpertons are taking this well.




The Bidenbots are ready to arrest and hang the dissenters.

Ripper
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Ha! Olbermann is a putz.
GoPack2008
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packgrad said:

GoPack2008 said:

ncsualum05 said:

I know some of you think this was all legitimate and needs to be over soon, but buckle up b/c it's not. There will be multiple recounts, lawsuits, challenges, etc.

Georgia just confirmed this morning that there will be a recount. Even with a slight Biden lead there are military ballots left to be counted that will probably put Trump back up by a couple thousand. But regardless... it's going for a recount. With republican control at the state level I do not know what is going on in and around Atlanta but it stinks to high heaven. Shame on leadership there if they don't have things under control. Hopefully it's transparent.

Michigan and Wisconsin need to be investigated. There is plenty of fraud evidence there. It's all over social media... Jack Dorsey is trying to delete but they can't get all of it. Recounts with transparency are necessary. Illegal ballots need to get thrown out.

Nevada... same deal. Looks like they've found some evidence there as well.

Arizona... I don't know if Trump ends up winning it but it looks like it's been trending his way.

Pennsylvania... don't even get me started.

Guys we've never seen something on this mass scale be so shady. Multiple states were not allowing poll watchers to accurately watch counting for transparency. You have people going home at 11 on election night and then some staying back and accepting truck loads of ballots at 4 am. Most ballots all for Biden with not down ballot voting. It's very strange. Turnout in urban areas that favor democrats were level in most major cities across the country but there happens to be a turnout surge in Milwaukee, Detroit, Philly, Atlanta. That is so convenient. Great targeted get out the vote effort? Doubtful.

Is Biden more popular than Obama was?

If you hate Trump fine... many do. It's possible Biden could still win legitimately. But I refuse to accept this as it is and I hope that we get a clear result with all LEGAL ballots at the end of this.

If a party can call a president illegitimate and a Russian agent, investigate it for 3 years, impeach him over a Ukraine phone call, ignore and even censor the Biden's over seas corruption, accuse a supreme court nominee of being a gang rapist, then why in god's name could they not rig an election?

More dangerous nonsense because you can't accept reality. Your dude lost.


More dangerous nonsense because you can't accept reality. Neither have lost yet.


The election is over. The remaining ballots in PA are leaning Biden, and Trump is off the pace he needs in the remaining AZ ballots.

Expect the race to be called when PA hits 30-40k margin for Biden. It's over.
packgrad
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GoPack2008 said:

packgrad said:

GoPack2008 said:

ncsualum05 said:

I know some of you think this was all legitimate and needs to be over soon, but buckle up b/c it's not. There will be multiple recounts, lawsuits, challenges, etc.

Georgia just confirmed this morning that there will be a recount. Even with a slight Biden lead there are military ballots left to be counted that will probably put Trump back up by a couple thousand. But regardless... it's going for a recount. With republican control at the state level I do not know what is going on in and around Atlanta but it stinks to high heaven. Shame on leadership there if they don't have things under control. Hopefully it's transparent.

Michigan and Wisconsin need to be investigated. There is plenty of fraud evidence there. It's all over social media... Jack Dorsey is trying to delete but they can't get all of it. Recounts with transparency are necessary. Illegal ballots need to get thrown out.

Nevada... same deal. Looks like they've found some evidence there as well.

Arizona... I don't know if Trump ends up winning it but it looks like it's been trending his way.

Pennsylvania... don't even get me started.

Guys we've never seen something on this mass scale be so shady. Multiple states were not allowing poll watchers to accurately watch counting for transparency. You have people going home at 11 on election night and then some staying back and accepting truck loads of ballots at 4 am. Most ballots all for Biden with not down ballot voting. It's very strange. Turnout in urban areas that favor democrats were level in most major cities across the country but there happens to be a turnout surge in Milwaukee, Detroit, Philly, Atlanta. That is so convenient. Great targeted get out the vote effort? Doubtful.

Is Biden more popular than Obama was?

If you hate Trump fine... many do. It's possible Biden could still win legitimately. But I refuse to accept this as it is and I hope that we get a clear result with all LEGAL ballots at the end of this.

If a party can call a president illegitimate and a Russian agent, investigate it for 3 years, impeach him over a Ukraine phone call, ignore and even censor the Biden's over seas corruption, accuse a supreme court nominee of being a gang rapist, then why in god's name could they not rig an election?

More dangerous nonsense because you can't accept reality. Your dude lost.


More dangerous nonsense because you can't accept reality. Neither have lost yet.


The election is over. The remaining ballots in PA are leaning Biden, and Trump is off the pace he needs in the remaining AZ ballots.

Expect the race to be called when PA hits 30-40k margin for Biden. It's over.


It is very dangerous to say the race is over when it clearly is not. Your side, in particular, has shown instance after instance of not being able to handle bad news. It is extremely dangerous to put forth such propaganda before the race has been decided.
Ripper
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It's too bad the D's had to cheat to beat Trump. I have to hand it to them. They are crafty and play for keeps.
Pacfanweb
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packgrad said:

Dan always a voice of reason. Edit to add. There's a subsequent tweet that I thought would post as well. Oh well, click and you can see it.


Packchem91
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IseWolf22 said:

Packchem91 said:

IseWolf22 said:

Packchem91 said:

jadawson said:

This election does not appear to have been a rebuke of the republican party. They still have a good chance of maintaining control of the Senate or atleast being evenly split, and they picked up seats in the House.

This is just a rebuke against Donald Trump and his divisive rhetoric and lack of a moral compass. There is nothing inspiring about Joe Biden as a candidate even for Democrats. He is not the reason there is a record number of ballots this election and nobody was excited to vote for him. He (will likely) win because he's not Donald Trump and people are tired of Trump and willing to come out in droves to vote for anyone that is not him. Much like in 2016 I think part of Trump's advantage was that he was not Hillary Clinton with all of her baggage, the same is true of him this time around.

The republican party just needs to do some self-analysis as to the direction they want to go. If they move back towards the center and get rid of the QAnon/conspiracy fringe that is seeping into control then i think they will find a lot more independents willing to go their way. Whether that happens or not is up in the air, they seem pretty satisfied with where they are right now outside of the results they are disputing.
Post of the day. Even as a Republican, I am happy to be rid of Trump. He's disgusted me his entire career, was disappointed he was our nominee 4 years ago, and though I'm 100% glad Hillary was not our president, Trump has been to divisive to be put into the most important job in the world.

I hope Biden will reach out across the aisle, and I hope the GOP will find some viable young candidates who aren't there to appease the far right wings of the party. I'd much rather steal some of the moderate left than the far right.

And the evangelicals need to line up behind someone with morals next time.
There is going to be post mortems in both parties and their will be major fights over the direction of the party.

The close loss gives Trumpism a leg to stand on when they argue that Republicans should embrace nationalism, and the culture war. Serious voices on the right want to reject classical liberalism and embrace us vs. them tactics to "win" the direction of the country. Trump isn't going away. Don Jr. will try to stay a voice in the party, and might run in 2024 or possibly for something like a senate seat. Cotton, Hawley, Gaetz, etc. will try to stay in this mold.
Instead the GOP should embrace moderates, minorities, and libertarians. Pursue small government solutions and focus on solutions that make the system more fair for everyone. Hailey, Kaisch, and others will represent that wing.

Democrats will also have their own series of fights. Already the Bernie wing is blaming Biden and moderate democrats for not winning the Senate. They are moral crusaders and wont just fall in line behind Pelosi.
Whats crazy to me is --- Trump was so stupid, he really p'd away a golden opportunity to actually do something very few, if any, recent GOP candidates have been able to do --- make major inroads with black, and the hugely growing Hispanic voters.

I mean, pre-covid, he absolutely could point to the rising tide theory giving POC jobs, and better jobs. But his stubbornness to be painted into a racist corner with the far right wing, made sure most POC would never vote for him. Just simple things like word choices, carefully worded statements, a couple of reach outs across the aisle....and I think he would have gained a ton of votes from blacks.
Instead, most still saw him as THE shining example of the problem in America. And its those votes --- in surely record volumes -- that have ended his tenure.

But...something in messaging, for the GOP to build on.
Look back at 2016. Trump came into power with all 3 branches of government. The 2018 senate map was very favorable. If Trump actually made progress on pulling us out of the middle east, passed healthcare reform that wasn't just a repeal without a replacement, forcefully disavowed white nationalists, etc, his entire term looks completely different.
But that's on Trump. He had the votes and couldn't get anything done besides tax reform. And tax reform would have been much more popular if he hadn't cut the top rates (Maybe we could have reduced the deficit). He had a revolving door at cabinet which further watered down his agenda. That's lack of leadership and decision making
Yeah, the lack of healthcare reform looks bad. I mean, the guy was just not a POTUS. It's difficult to lead when you can't even maintain a staff. I'd love to see a scorecard in 2 years of key staff changes for Biden vs key staff changes for Trump.
We talk about how this impacts NC State football, with all the staff changes - heck, imagine what it does for a job as big as POTUS
ncsualum05
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Packchem91 said:

IseWolf22 said:

Packchem91 said:

IseWolf22 said:

Packchem91 said:

jadawson said:

This election does not appear to have been a rebuke of the republican party. They still have a good chance of maintaining control of the Senate or atleast being evenly split, and they picked up seats in the House.

This is just a rebuke against Donald Trump and his divisive rhetoric and lack of a moral compass. There is nothing inspiring about Joe Biden as a candidate even for Democrats. He is not the reason there is a record number of ballots this election and nobody was excited to vote for him. He (will likely) win because he's not Donald Trump and people are tired of Trump and willing to come out in droves to vote for anyone that is not him. Much like in 2016 I think part of Trump's advantage was that he was not Hillary Clinton with all of her baggage, the same is true of him this time around.

The republican party just needs to do some self-analysis as to the direction they want to go. If they move back towards the center and get rid of the QAnon/conspiracy fringe that is seeping into control then i think they will find a lot more independents willing to go their way. Whether that happens or not is up in the air, they seem pretty satisfied with where they are right now outside of the results they are disputing.
Post of the day. Even as a Republican, I am happy to be rid of Trump. He's disgusted me his entire career, was disappointed he was our nominee 4 years ago, and though I'm 100% glad Hillary was not our president, Trump has been to divisive to be put into the most important job in the world.

I hope Biden will reach out across the aisle, and I hope the GOP will find some viable young candidates who aren't there to appease the far right wings of the party. I'd much rather steal some of the moderate left than the far right.

And the evangelicals need to line up behind someone with morals next time.
There is going to be post mortems in both parties and their will be major fights over the direction of the party.

The close loss gives Trumpism a leg to stand on when they argue that Republicans should embrace nationalism, and the culture war. Serious voices on the right want to reject classical liberalism and embrace us vs. them tactics to "win" the direction of the country. Trump isn't going away. Don Jr. will try to stay a voice in the party, and might run in 2024 or possibly for something like a senate seat. Cotton, Hawley, Gaetz, etc. will try to stay in this mold.
Instead the GOP should embrace moderates, minorities, and libertarians. Pursue small government solutions and focus on solutions that make the system more fair for everyone. Hailey, Kaisch, and others will represent that wing.

Democrats will also have their own series of fights. Already the Bernie wing is blaming Biden and moderate democrats for not winning the Senate. They are moral crusaders and wont just fall in line behind Pelosi.
Whats crazy to me is --- Trump was so stupid, he really p'd away a golden opportunity to actually do something very few, if any, recent GOP candidates have been able to do --- make major inroads with black, and the hugely growing Hispanic voters.

I mean, pre-covid, he absolutely could point to the rising tide theory giving POC jobs, and better jobs. But his stubbornness to be painted into a racist corner with the far right wing, made sure most POC would never vote for him. Just simple things like word choices, carefully worded statements, a couple of reach outs across the aisle....and I think he would have gained a ton of votes from blacks.
Instead, most still saw him as THE shining example of the problem in America. And its those votes --- in surely record volumes -- that have ended his tenure.

But...something in messaging, for the GOP to build on.
Look back at 2016. Trump came into power with all 3 branches of government. The 2018 senate map was very favorable. If Trump actually made progress on pulling us out of the middle east, passed healthcare reform that wasn't just a repeal without a replacement, forcefully disavowed white nationalists, etc, his entire term looks completely different.
But that's on Trump. He had the votes and couldn't get anything done besides tax reform. And tax reform would have been much more popular if he hadn't cut the top rates (Maybe we could have reduced the deficit). He had a revolving door at cabinet which further watered down his agenda. That's lack of leadership and decision making
Yeah, the lack of healthcare reform looks bad. I mean, the guy was just not a POTUS. It's difficult to lead when you can't even maintain a staff. I'd love to see a scorecard in 2 years of key staff changes for Biden vs key staff changes for Trump.
We talk about how this impacts NC State football, with all the staff changes - heck, imagine what it does for a job as big as POTUS
Well part of that staff deal is on him but he was also an outsider walking into the belly of the beast. He had no idea how many little turncoat *****es there would be that wanted to betray him even inside the White House. Part of that could've been b/c the entire DC establishment and media were performing a coup of sorts to convince everyone that he was a Russian agent which of course only people in DC believed. Think that might've had something to do with those turbulent first 2 years?

I think I'm all in on Biden being a China puppet. But DC is for that so.... oh well.
Packchem91
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^And part of it, likely most of it, was just that he was a complete lying SOB who said pretty much anything, regardless of its veracity, often putting his staff into positions where they could not possibly succeed?

I mean, its just like his comments now post-election. There is a way to calmly and reasonably question some of the things taht may be awkward.....then there is the Trumpian way that reflects badly on pretty much all of his advisors and people who support him?
wolfman18
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GoPack2008
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packgrad said:

GoPack2008 said:

packgrad said:

GoPack2008 said:

ncsualum05 said:

I know some of you think this was all legitimate and needs to be over soon, but buckle up b/c it's not. There will be multiple recounts, lawsuits, challenges, etc.

Georgia just confirmed this morning that there will be a recount. Even with a slight Biden lead there are military ballots left to be counted that will probably put Trump back up by a couple thousand. But regardless... it's going for a recount. With republican control at the state level I do not know what is going on in and around Atlanta but it stinks to high heaven. Shame on leadership there if they don't have things under control. Hopefully it's transparent.

Michigan and Wisconsin need to be investigated. There is plenty of fraud evidence there. It's all over social media... Jack Dorsey is trying to delete but they can't get all of it. Recounts with transparency are necessary. Illegal ballots need to get thrown out.

Nevada... same deal. Looks like they've found some evidence there as well.

Arizona... I don't know if Trump ends up winning it but it looks like it's been trending his way.

Pennsylvania... don't even get me started.

Guys we've never seen something on this mass scale be so shady. Multiple states were not allowing poll watchers to accurately watch counting for transparency. You have people going home at 11 on election night and then some staying back and accepting truck loads of ballots at 4 am. Most ballots all for Biden with not down ballot voting. It's very strange. Turnout in urban areas that favor democrats were level in most major cities across the country but there happens to be a turnout surge in Milwaukee, Detroit, Philly, Atlanta. That is so convenient. Great targeted get out the vote effort? Doubtful.

Is Biden more popular than Obama was?

If you hate Trump fine... many do. It's possible Biden could still win legitimately. But I refuse to accept this as it is and I hope that we get a clear result with all LEGAL ballots at the end of this.

If a party can call a president illegitimate and a Russian agent, investigate it for 3 years, impeach him over a Ukraine phone call, ignore and even censor the Biden's over seas corruption, accuse a supreme court nominee of being a gang rapist, then why in god's name could they not rig an election?

More dangerous nonsense because you can't accept reality. Your dude lost.


More dangerous nonsense because you can't accept reality. Neither have lost yet.


The election is over. The remaining ballots in PA are leaning Biden, and Trump is off the pace he needs in the remaining AZ ballots.

Expect the race to be called when PA hits 30-40k margin for Biden. It's over.


It is very dangerous to say the race is over when it clearly is not. Your side, in particular, has shown instance after instance of not being able to handle bad news. It is extremely dangerous to put forth such propaganda before the race has been decided.


It's not dangerous to say anything of the sort. The math is there. Biden has had the edge in the mail in ballots in PA, even in red counties. There is absolutely no reason to think that trend reverses now.

Decision desks are going to make the call when the margin gets a bit higher. But it's over in PA, and that's the election.

AZ and GA will end up close but that won't matter from a 270 EV perspective.
 
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