packgrad said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Pacfanweb said:

---

1100 Americans die at the hands of police each year.
Most are white.
Most, the police did nothing wrong.
The questionable ones are very, very few when you consider the millions of police/public interactions that happen every year.
And they are even fewer, when you consider that the police are generally dealing with bad people to start with when they end up shooting somebody. When you're chasing down criminals there is a lot bigger chance that it might end up violently. Nature of the job.
It's not like they only write traffic tickets and end up shooting 1100 people as a result.

---

There are almost 6x more white people than black people in this country so you'd expect 'most' police killings to be of white people. In fact, if white people and black people were equally likely to die at the hands of police, 6x more white people than black people would be dying at the hands of police each year.

But that's not what's happening.

Per capita, black Americans are 3x more likely to be killed by police than white people.

Per capita, black Americans are 1.3x more likely to be unarmed compared to white people.

---

Do the per capita on crime now. Then you'll see why your numbers are bs. Based on police interactions, white people are more likely to be killed by police.

---

Great point!

Black men constitute 6 percent of the US adult population but are approximately 35 percent of the prison population and are incarcerated at a rate 6x that of white males.

Black men's prison sentences on average are approximately 20% longer than those of white Americans charged with the same crime. They are also approximately 20% less likely to receive sentence reductions once incarcerated.

Black Americans are 2x likelier than white Americans to live in poverty and 2.2x likelier to live in deep poverty.

Black American families have average net worths 10x less than those of average white American families.

Black Americans are 1.5x likelier than white Americans to develop Type 2 diabetes.

Black Americans are 1.4x likelier to develop heart disease.

Black Americans are 1.3x likelier to be obese.

What are the causes of these massive outcome disparities between black Americans and white Americans?

packgrad said:

---

Civilized said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Civilized said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Making stuff up? Lol. If you're not smart enough to see what's happening in NYC, for example, then me explaining it to you on a message board isn't going to help.

---

Civil unrest has been occasionally happening throughout the history of our country. It's sporadic, not indicative of normal times, and not something you base broad policing policies off of.

You won't show me data that indicates use-of-force training results in higher crime, because that data doesn't exist.

Because use-of-force doesn't result in higher crime. It just results in fewer people being killed by police, which is win-win.

---

Use of force training has done wonders in big cities this week. Congratulations.

---

Why do you keep talking about this week like that's a statistically significant sample size?

Talk to me about the last six or seven years, since de-escalation training has been implemented in departments around the country.

See if your argument holds up.

Preview: It won't.

---

Is Minneapolis a big city? That's what started all of this.

Preview. It is.

---

Minneapolis Police Use Force Against Black People at 7 Times the Rate of Whites

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/03/us/minneapolis-police-use-of-force.html

Civilized said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Pacfanweb said:

---

1100 Americans die at the hands of police each year.
Most are white.
Most, the police did nothing wrong.
The questionable ones are very, very few when you consider the millions of police/public interactions that happen every year.
And they are even fewer, when you consider that the police are generally dealing with bad people to start with when they end up shooting somebody. When you're chasing down criminals there is a lot bigger chance that it might end up violently. Nature of the job.
It's not like they only write traffic tickets and end up shooting 1100 people as a result.

---

There are almost 6x more white people than black people in this country so you'd expect 'most' police killings to be of white people. In fact, if white people and black people were equally likely to die at the hands of police, 6x more white people than black people would be dying at the hands of police each year.

But that's not what's happening.

Per capita, black Americans are 3x more likely to be killed by police than white people.

Per capita, black Americans are 1.3x more likely to be unarmed compared to white people.

---

Do the per capita on crime now. Then you'll see why your numbers are bs. Based on police interactions, white people are more likely to be killed by police.

---

Great point!

Black men constitute 6 percent of the US adult population but are approximately 35 percent of the prison population and are incarcerated at a rate 6x that of white males.

Black men's prison sentences on average are approximately 20% longer than those of white Americans charged with the same crime. They are also approximately 20% less likely to receive sentence reductions once incarcerated.

Black Americans are 2x likelier than white Americans to live in poverty and 2.2x likelier to live in deep poverty.

Black American families have average net worths 10x less than those of average white American families.

Black Americans are 1.5x likelier than white Americans to develop Type 2 diabetes.

Black Americans are 1.4x likelier to develop heart disease.

Black Americans are 1.3x likelier to be obese.

What are the causes of these massive outcome disparities between black Americans and white Americans?

---

Way to avoid the point. Why did you need to move the goalposts? Just an unbelievable amount of misdirection. Diabetes!!! LOLOLOL.

Civilized said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Civilized said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Civilized said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Making stuff up? Lol. If you're not smart enough to see what's happening in NYC, for example, then me explaining it to you on a message board isn't going to help.

---

Civil unrest has been occasionally happening throughout the history of our country. It's sporadic, not indicative of normal times, and not something you base broad policing policies off of.

You won't show me data that indicates use-of-force training results in higher crime, because that data doesn't exist.

Because use-of-force doesn't result in higher crime. It just results in fewer people being killed by police, which is win-win.

---

Use of force training has done wonders in big cities this week. Congratulations.

---

Why do you keep talking about this week like that's a statistically significant sample size?

Talk to me about the last six or seven years, since de-escalation training has been implemented in departments around the country.

See if your argument holds up.

Preview: It won't.

---

Is Minneapolis a big city? That's what started all of this.

Preview. It is.

---

Minneapolis Police Use Force Against Black People at 7 Times the Rate of Whites

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/03/us/minneapolis-police-use-of-force.html

---

But training in big cities fixed that. Remember?

NYT Lol. That newspaper is propaganda. Their staff just protested because an opinion article was printed from a republican congressman. Great source.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/03/media/new-york-times-tom-cotton-op-ed/index.html

packgrad said:

---

Way to avoid the point. Why did you need to move the goalposts? Just an unbelievable amount of misdirection. Diabetes!!! LOLOLOL.

---

What's funny about negative public health outcomes for Black Americans (or any Americans)?

Black Americans are also 2.4x more likely than white Americans to die from COVID.

1.9x less likely to graduate from high school.

1.8x less likely to obtain a bachelor's degree.

Show me one major measurable outcome where Black Americans fare better than White Americans.

Wealth. Income. Crime. Health. Education. Being a victim of violence at the hands of police.

Show me. Since you can't, explore why those outcomes - all of them - are so different for black Americans than white Americans.

Or just keep LOLOL'ing.

packgrad said:

---

But training in big cities fixed that. Remember?

NYT Lol. That newspaper is propaganda. Their staff just protested because an opinion article was printed from a republican congressman. Great source.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/03/media/new-york-times-tom-cotton-op-ed/index.html

---

Cite a different source then. Go find data that indicates that I'm wrong about the success of de-escalation training.

Good luck!

Civilized said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Way to avoid the point. Why did you need to move the goalposts? Just an unbelievable amount of misdirection. Diabetes!!! LOLOLOL.

---

What's funny about negative public health outcomes for Black Americans (or any Americans)?

Black Americans are also 2.4x more likely than white Americans to die from COVID.

1.9x less likely to graduate from high school.

1.8x less likely to obtain a bachelor's degree.

Show me one major measurable outcome where Black Americans fare better than White Americans.

Wealth. Income. Crime. Health. Education. Being a victim of violence at the hands of police.

Show me. Since you can't, explore why those outcomes - all of them - are so different for black Americans than white Americans.

Or just keep LOLOL'ing.

---

And still none of this has anything to do with what you said. Lol.

Civilized said:

---

packgrad said:

---

But training in big cities fixed that. Remember?

NYT Lol. That newspaper is propaganda. Their staff just protested because an opinion article was printed from a republican congressman. Great source.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/03/media/new-york-times-tom-cotton-op-ed/index.html

---

Cite a different source then. Go find data that indicates that I'm wrong about the success of de-escalation training.

Good luck!

---

Not my job to prove your point. Minneapolis fits in the "last I heard" post where you copy and pasted from an article category. They were unsuccessful in this situation.

Civilized said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Pacfanweb said:

---

1100 Americans die at the hands of police each year.
Most are white.
Most, the police did nothing wrong.
The questionable ones are very, very few when you consider the millions of police/public interactions that happen every year.
And they are even fewer, when you consider that the police are generally dealing with bad people to start with when they end up shooting somebody. When you're chasing down criminals there is a lot bigger chance that it might end up violently. Nature of the job.
It's not like they only write traffic tickets and end up shooting 1100 people as a result.

---

There are almost 6x more white people than black people in this country so you'd expect 'most' police killings to be of white people. In fact, if white people and black people were equally likely to die at the hands of police, 6x more white people than black people would be dying at the hands of police each year.

But that's not what's happening.

Per capita, black Americans are 3x more likely to be killed by police than white people.

Per capita, black Americans are 1.3x more likely to be unarmed compared to white people.

---

Do the per capita on crime now. Then you'll see why your numbers are bs. Based on police interactions, white people are more likely to be killed by police.

---

Great point!

Black men constitute 6 percent of the US adult population but are approximately 35 percent of the prison population and are incarcerated at a rate 6x that of white males.

Black men's prison sentences on average are approximately 20% longer than those of white Americans charged with the same crime. They are also approximately 20% less likely to receive sentence reductions once incarcerated.

Black Americans are 2x likelier than white Americans to live in poverty and 2.2x likelier to live in deep poverty.

Black American families have average net worths 10x less than those of average white American families.

Black Americans are 1.5x likelier than white Americans to develop Type 2 diabetes.

Black Americans are 1.4x likelier to develop heart disease.

Black Americans are 1.3x likelier to be obese.

What are the causes of these massive outcome disparities between black Americans and white Americans?

---

If you get right down to it, education.

Blacks (as a whole) don't value education, so they don't put the effort into it, and their outcomes in life aren't as good.

And that's a culture thing. I don't know how the cycle can be broken, but that's exactly what's wrong. Everything else stems from that.

If their outcomes in life were better, less of them would turn to crime and most all their other problems would decrease as well.

Civilized said:

---

Pacfanweb said:

---

1100 Americans die at the hands of police each year.
Most are white.
Most, the police did nothing wrong.
The questionable ones are very, very few when you consider the millions of police/public interactions that happen every year.
And they are even fewer, when you consider that the police are generally dealing with bad people to start with when they end up shooting somebody. When you're chasing down criminals there is a lot bigger chance that it might end up violently. Nature of the job.
It's not like they only write traffic tickets and end up shooting 1100 people as a result.

---

There are almost 6x more white people than black people in this country so you'd expect 'most' police killings to be of white people. In fact, if white people and black people were equally likely to die at the hands of police, 6x more white people than black people would be dying at the hands of police each year.

But that's not what's happening.

Per capita, black Americans are 3x more likely to be killed by police than white people.

Per capita, black Americans are 1.3x more likely to be unarmed compared to white people.

---

Per capita, blacks are far more likely to be COMMITTING crimes than white people....so basically, they have "per capita" more interactions with the police as a result, which greatly increases the likelihood of some of those interactions going badly.

It's simply a numbers thing. Less blacks, but more of them (as a percentage) commit crimes, so more of them are confronted by the police, and more of those confrontations end poorly.

It's still a very small percentage of those interactions that end with killings/beatings/etc, but still, more of them (as a percentage) than whites.

But it's not because the police are inherently racist...it's simply because of the numbers of blacks that commit crimes. That doesn't in ANY way excuse what bad cops do, or say that no cops are racist....but most are not, yet the very few that are get blown WAY out of proportion, compared to the tens of thousands of police/public interactions daily.

And the history of blacks in America...civil rights, etc and all the mistreatment and past wrongs certainly puts police under more of a spotlight when dealing with blacks than with anyone else.

packgrad said:

---

Civilized said:

---

packgrad said:

---

But training in big cities fixed that. Remember?

NYT Lol. That newspaper is propaganda. Their staff just protested because an opinion article was printed from a republican congressman. Great source.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/03/media/new-york-times-tom-cotton-op-ed/index.html

---

Cite a different source then. Go find data that indicates that I'm wrong about the success of de-escalation training.

Good luck!

---

Not my job to prove your point. Minneapolis fits in the "last I heard" post where you copy and pasted from an article category. They were unsuccessful in this situation.

---

I've made a clear data-driven case that black Americans experience worse outcomes in every measurable way than white Americans, and said it's worth talking about why that is.

You're dancing around saying anything of substance. You don't refute what I say using data. You don't really do anything else except rail against the boogeyman.

So what exactly are you saying?

That use-of-force training doesn't demonstrably improve outcomes for police departments and citizens alike? If you believe this, show us the data that refutes the point.

That black American don't experience worse outcomes in every measurable way than white Americans? If you believe this, show us the data that refutes the point.

Or are you just looking to be angry at looters (easy to do, none of us like looters) and the NY Times, and not really think about anything deeper?

Civilized said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Civilized said:

---

packgrad said:

---

But training in big cities fixed that. Remember?

NYT Lol. That newspaper is propaganda. Their staff just protested because an opinion article was printed from a republican congressman. Great source.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/03/media/new-york-times-tom-cotton-op-ed/index.html

---

Cite a different source then. Go find data that indicates that I'm wrong about the success of de-escalation training.

Good luck!

---

Not my job to prove your point. Minneapolis fits in the "last I heard" post where you copy and pasted from an article category. They were unsuccessful in this situation.

---

I've made a clear data-driven case that black Americans experience worse outcomes in every measurable way than white Americans, and said it's worth talking about why that is.

You're dancing around saying anything of substance. You don't refute what I say using data. You don't really do anything else except rail against the boogeyman.

So what exactly are you saying?

That use-of-force training doesn't demonstrably improve outcomes for police departments and citizens alike? If you believe this, show us the data that refutes the point.

That black American don't experience worse outcomes in every measurable way than white Americans? If you believe this, show us the data that refutes the point.

Or are you just looking to be angry at looters (easy to do, none of us like looters) and the NY Times, and not really think about anything deeper?

---

Because your ridiculous misdirection "I've made a clear data-driven case that black Americans experience worse outcomes in every measurable way than white Americans" has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. Start another thread if you want to talk about that.

Minneapolis has use of force training and it did nothing to prevent this. As a matter of fact, a Minneapolis police officer caused all of this.

If you want to talk about black people and diabetes, fine. Do so on another thread. It literally has absolutely nothing to do with a video of a white police officer pushing down an old white man in NY, where presumably the officer also had use of force training.

Pacfanweb said:

---

Per capita, blacks are far more likely to be COMMITTING crimes than white people....so basically, they have "per capita" more interactions with the police as a result, which greatly increases the likelihood of some of those interactions going badly.

It's simply a numbers thing. Less blacks, but more of them (as a percentage) commit crimes, so more of them are confronted by the police, and more of those confrontations end poorly.

It's still a very small percentage of those interactions that end with killings/beatings/etc, but still, more of them (as a percentage) than whites.

But it's not because the police are inherently racist...it's simply because of the numbers of blacks that commit crimes. That doesn't in ANY way excuse what bad cops do, or say that no cops are racist....but most are not, yet the very few that are get blown WAY out of proportion, compared to the tens of thousands of police/public interactions daily.

And the history of blacks in America...civil rights, etc and all the mistreatment and past wrongs certainly puts police under more of a spotlight when dealing with blacks than with anyone else.

---

We don't know how many crimes black Americans commit vs. other races because all races and neighborhoods are not policed equally, and all defendants are not charged or represented equally in our criminal justice system.

Black Americans almost certainly do not commit 6x more crime per capita than white Americans (the relative rate at which they're incarcerated compared to whites).

They are just convicted at that rate (while being charged more frequently than whites and while having a higher rate of appointed public defenders). And once convicted, they clearly have longer sentences for the same crimes, and are less likely to have their sentences reduced than whites, none of which your assertion speaks to.

But for the sake of argument, if you allow that black Americans commit more crimes per capita than other races, why might that be?

Because committing crime is fun? Because they see it being a smart decision for their future? Because they lack the discipline or smarts to know better?

Why would any people of sound mind turn to crime when there are clearly better options?

Keep diving deeper. Say black Americans do commit more crimes.

Does opportunity disparity play a role? White American families have 10x the wealth black families do. That provides social, educational, health, and financial opportunities that aren't present in the black community. You're more likely to commit crime when you're desperate.

Do socioeconomic disparities between black Americans and other races such as relative rates of entrenched poverty, exposure to poor neighborhoods, poor access to public education, and poor access to early childhood education play a role in the over-representation of blacks Americans in the criminal justice system? You're more likely to commit crime when you're under-educated.

Do you think it's coincidence that black Americans find themselves in this place in our country, when they were also subject to slavery and extreme racial discrimination for over 300 years, and more moderate but still significant discrimination since the 1960's civil rights movement?

Put yourself in the black community's shoes. If white Americans had been enslaved for over 250 years and weren't allowed to even vote for another ~80 years after that (and were allowed to vote just 50 years ago) and were suffering extraordinarily poor outcomes in every measurable way relative to other races, what would your outlook be?

packgrad said:

---

Civilized said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Civilized said:

---

packgrad said:

---

But training in big cities fixed that. Remember?

NYT Lol. That newspaper is propaganda. Their staff just protested because an opinion article was printed from a republican congressman. Great source.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/03/media/new-york-times-tom-cotton-op-ed/index.html

---

Cite a different source then. Go find data that indicates that I'm wrong about the success of de-escalation training.

Good luck!

---

Not my job to prove your point. Minneapolis fits in the "last I heard" post where you copy and pasted from an article category. They were unsuccessful in this situation.

---

I've made a clear data-driven case that black Americans experience worse outcomes in every measurable way than white Americans, and said it's worth talking about why that is.

You're dancing around saying anything of substance. You don't refute what I say using data. You don't really do anything else except rail against the boogeyman.

So what exactly are you saying?

That use-of-force training doesn't demonstrably improve outcomes for police departments and citizens alike? If you believe this, show us the data that refutes the point.

That black American don't experience worse outcomes in every measurable way than white Americans? If you believe this, show us the data that refutes the point.

Or are you just looking to be angry at looters (easy to do, none of us like looters) and the NY Times, and not really think about anything deeper?

---

Because your ridiculous misdirection "I've made a clear data-driven case that black Americans experience worse outcomes in every measurable way than white Americans" has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. Start another thread if you want to talk about that.

Minneapolis has use of force training and it did nothing to prevent this. As a matter of fact, a Minneapolis police officer caused all of this.

If you want to talk about black people and diabetes, fine. Do so on another thread. It literally has absolutely nothing to do with a video of a white police officer pushing down an old white man in NY, where presumably the officer also had use of force training.

---

Did you take Stat 101 at State? You're talking about a sample size of two. Use a statistically significant sample size.

Police departments in America's 30 largest cities killed 30 percent fewer people in 2019 than in 2013, the year before the Ferguson protests began.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/police-are-killing-fewer-people-in-big-cities-but-more-in-suburban-and-rural-america/

Minneapolis only banned combat-style training a year ago, and the Minneapolis Police Union kept offering and encouraging "Bulletproof Warrior" training to cops after it was banned by the City, maintaining it was necessary for "survival."

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/05/bob-kroll-minneapolis-warrior-police-training/

Civilized said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Pacfanweb said:

---

1100 Americans die at the hands of police each year.
Most are white.
Most, the police did nothing wrong.
The questionable ones are very, very few when you consider the millions of police/public interactions that happen every year.
And they are even fewer, when you consider that the police are generally dealing with bad people to start with when they end up shooting somebody. When you're chasing down criminals there is a lot bigger chance that it might end up violently. Nature of the job.
It's not like they only write traffic tickets and end up shooting 1100 people as a result.

---

There are almost 6x more white people than black people in this country so you'd expect 'most' police killings to be of white people. In fact, if white people and black people were equally likely to die at the hands of police, 6x more white people than black people would be dying at the hands of police each year.

But that's not what's happening.

Per capita, black Americans are 3x more likely to be killed by police than white people.

Per capita, black Americans are 1.3x more likely to be unarmed compared to white people.

---

Do the per capita on crime now. Then you'll see why your numbers are bs. Based on police interactions, white people are more likely to be killed by police.

---

Great point!

Black men constitute 6 percent of the US adult population but are approximately 35 percent of the prison population and are incarcerated at a rate 6x that of white males.

Black men's prison sentences on average are approximately 20% longer than those of white Americans charged with the same crime. They are also approximately 20% less likely to receive sentence reductions once incarcerated.

Black Americans are 2x likelier than white Americans to live in poverty and 2.2x likelier to live in deep poverty.

Black American families have average net worths 10x less than those of average white American families.

Black Americans are 1.5x likelier than white Americans to develop Type 2 diabetes.

Black Americans are 1.4x likelier to develop heart disease.

Black Americans are 1.3x likelier to be obese.

What are the causes of these massive outcome disparities between black Americans and white Americans?

---

Man, cops are not only killing everyone, they're making them fat and giving them diabetes!

Kgar2121 said:

---

Man, cops are not only killing everyone, they're making them fat and giving them diabetes!

---

Do you think education, poverty, crime, health, and wealth are interdependent?

You guys are having quite the back and forth but I wanted to weigh in here on where I think the breakdown is....

I think that what hurts the African American community the most is the lack of 2 parents in the household. 74.3% of all while children under the age of 18 live in a 2 parent household, while only 37.8% of African American minors can say the same.

To break that down even further over 33% of African American children live with an unmarried mother, compared to 6.5% of white children.

That is a huge difference in cultures and what children are exposed to. Children in single parent households typically struggle with poverty, lack of education, and less access to healthcare. This of course leads to a whole litany of other issues such as exposure to crime and drug use at a young age, as well as less of an emphasis on education and healthcare.

I don't know how to fix the family structure there, but I think by solving that it will help solve alot of the problems that plague African American kids.

My two cents...

Civilized said:

---

Pacfanweb said:

---

Per capita, blacks are far more likely to be COMMITTING crimes than white people....so basically, they have "per capita" more interactions with the police as a result, which greatly increases the likelihood of some of those interactions going badly.

It's simply a numbers thing. Less blacks, but more of them (as a percentage) commit crimes, so more of them are confronted by the police, and more of those confrontations end poorly.

It's still a very small percentage of those interactions that end with killings/beatings/etc, but still, more of them (as a percentage) than whites.

But it's not because the police are inherently racist...it's simply because of the numbers of blacks that commit crimes. That doesn't in ANY way excuse what bad cops do, or say that no cops are racist....but most are not, yet the very few that are get blown WAY out of proportion, compared to the tens of thousands of police/public interactions daily.

And the history of blacks in America...civil rights, etc and all the mistreatment and past wrongs certainly puts police under more of a spotlight when dealing with blacks than with anyone else.

---

We don't know how many crimes black Americans commit vs. other races because all races and neighborhoods are not policed equally, and all defendants are not charged or represented equally in our criminal justice system.

Black Americans almost certainly do not commit 6x more crime per capita than white Americans (the relative rate at which they're incarcerated compared to whites).

They are just convicted at that rate (while being charged more frequently than whites and while having a higher rate of appointed public defenders). And once convicted, they clearly have longer sentences for the same crimes, and are less likely to have their sentences reduced than whites, none of which your assertion speaks to.

But for the sake of argument, if you allow that black Americans commit more crimes per capita than other races, why might that be?

Because committing crime is fun? Because they see it being a smart decision for their future? Because they lack the discipline or smarts to know better?

Why would any people of sound mind turn to crime when there are clearly better options?

Keep diving deeper. Say black Americans do commit more crimes.

Does opportunity disparity play a role? White American families have 10x the wealth black families do. That provides social, educational, health, and financial opportunities that aren't present in the black community. You're more likely to commit crime when you're desperate.

Do socioeconomic disparities between black Americans and other races such as relative rates of entrenched poverty, exposure to poor neighborhoods, poor access to public education, and poor access to early childhood education play a role in the over-representation of blacks Americans in the criminal justice system? You're more likely to commit crime when you're under-educated.

Do you think it's coincidence that black Americans find themselves in this place in our country, when they were also subject to slavery and extreme racial discrimination for over 300 years, and more moderate but still significant discrimination since the 1960's civil rights movement?

Put yourself in the black community's shoes. If white Americans had been enslaved for over 250 years and weren't allowed to even vote for another ~80 years after that (and were allowed to vote just 50 years ago) and were suffering extraordinarily poor outcomes in every measurable way relative to other races, what would your outlook be?

---

Some validity to what you're saying, I will admit.

But here's the other side:

The Civil Rights Movement fought for equal rights, correct? Today's young black people, their grandparents and great-grandparents marched, were hosed, sat in, were beaten, etc....so they could have equal rights, right?

And since the late 60's....or early 70's, they've had them. They fought to eat at the same places. Sit where they want to on buses. Water fountains. Go to the same schools.

Now...was it all comfortable and everyone was amenable to it immediately? No, of course not.

But I can tell you this: Education leads to better outcomes.

And for roughly the last 45-50 years, black kids have been sitting next to white kids in public schools, learning from the same teachers.

What have they done with that opportunity? Have they taken that bull by the horns, like their grandparents and great-grandparents who fought for these rights wanted them to? Have they developed a culture that values learning and excelling in school, so they can be better off as adults?

Have they?

Or have they done the exact opposite? Have they developed almost a counter culture, where they try to be as different as possible, and they look down on any of their black friends who try to become more educated and better themselves?
I can tell you for a fact this is the case.

73% of black babies born to unwed mothers. Blacks still have a low graduation rate compared to whites, and have also been surpassed by hispanics.

You can go on and on with some of these statistics. They all look bad for the black community.

The solution....I can't tell you what the magic formula is, but I can tell you that education is the key. Some how, some way, blacks have to change and start valuing their education. Take advantage of the opportunities that schools offer. Better themselves.

Better educated people will likely not have as high a single-mother rate, which isn't a good thing. They'll have better outcomes as adults, which will lead to less crime.

It's not the only thing that has to change, but IMO it's the major thing. Now maybe some other things have to change to get the education to be more desirable to blacks, but there's no doubt that education is the key to it all.

Thought this should be separate:

Arrest rates: They are higher in proportion. It's not just conviction rates. I'd say blacks probably DO get worse sentencing outcomes, due to financial reasons.
That's pretty simple: Those that can afford better lawyers, get better legal outcomes. That's not a failing of the justice system, really...it's just a further example of lack of education harming blacks.
Those who are more educated and make more money, driver nicer cars, live in nicer homes and areas, and if they have any legal issues, can hire better lawyers and have better outcomes in court.

Those who are less educated and have worse financial outcomes, pretty much experience the opposite of all that. It's not racism, or the system being stacked against blacks, or cops/DA's treating them any differently...they simply commit crime at a higher rate, and since they are less educated/worse outcomes they also get convicted at a higher rate.

As of 2016:
All arrests: 8,421,481

White: 5,858,330 or 69.6% of arrests
Black: 2,263,112 or 26.9% of arrests
Hispanic: 1,221,066 or 18.4% of arrests

Population percentages:

White 76.5%
Black 13.4%
Hispanic: 18.3%

Now....you talked about conviction rate. I'm talking just the arrest rate. Clearly, blacks are convicted at a higher rate because they're arrested at a higher rate. The conviction rate might be skewed some more due to financial reasons. Likely is, I'd say.

But you have 13.4% of the population making up basically 27% of all arrests. They aren't getting arrested because cops target them or are racist.(for the most part) it's because they simply commit that much more crime.
If cops were racist, why is the Hispanic arrest level so much lower?

Am I in any way suggesting that cops can't be better? That we shouldn't look into that at all? No.

I'm just suggesting...really...proving, that both sides have lots to work on. Blacks can't keep complaining about police treatment, or killing of blacks when blacks themselves kill FAR more of each other than cops ever do. And nobody says much about that, other than lip service.

Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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But training in big cities fixed that. Remember?

NYT Lol. That newspaper is propaganda. Their staff just protested because an opinion article was printed from a republican congressman. Great source.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/03/media/new-york-times-tom-cotton-op-ed/index.html

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Cite a different source then. Go find data that indicates that I'm wrong about the success of de-escalation training.

Good luck!

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Not my job to prove your point. Minneapolis fits in the "last I heard" post where you copy and pasted from an article category. They were unsuccessful in this situation.

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I've made a clear data-driven case that black Americans experience worse outcomes in every measurable way than white Americans, and said it's worth talking about why that is.

You're dancing around saying anything of substance. You don't refute what I say using data. You don't really do anything else except rail against the boogeyman.

So what exactly are you saying?

That use-of-force training doesn't demonstrably improve outcomes for police departments and citizens alike? If you believe this, show us the data that refutes the point.

That black American don't experience worse outcomes in every measurable way than white Americans? If you believe this, show us the data that refutes the point.

Or are you just looking to be angry at looters (easy to do, none of us like looters) and the NY Times, and not really think about anything deeper?

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Because your ridiculous misdirection "I've made a clear data-driven case that black Americans experience worse outcomes in every measurable way than white Americans" has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. Start another thread if you want to talk about that.

Minneapolis has use of force training and it did nothing to prevent this. As a matter of fact, a Minneapolis police officer caused all of this.

If you want to talk about black people and diabetes, fine. Do so on another thread. It literally has absolutely nothing to do with a video of a white police officer pushing down an old white man in NY, where presumably the officer also had use of force training.

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Did you take Stat 101 at State? You're talking about a sample size of two. Use a statistically significant sample size.

Police departments in America's 30 largest cities killed 30 percent fewer people in 2019 than in 2013, the year before the Ferguson protests began.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/police-are-killing-fewer-people-in-big-cities-but-more-in-suburban-and-rural-america/

Minneapolis only banned combat-style training a year ago, and the Minneapolis Police Union kept offering and encouraging "Bulletproof Warrior" training to cops after it was banned by the City, maintaining it was necessary for "survival."

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/05/bob-kroll-minneapolis-warrior-police-training/

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Ok, great. How many years of training do officers need before it counts? Minneapolis has the training. Chauvin was a training officer training 2 of the 3 other officers with him, so he presumably had even more training.

Minneapolis banned the scary worded "Bulletproof Warrior" a year ago. How long until that counts?

One police officer did something and now we're trying to put it on all police officers. One police officer who had the training you said was needed to prevent this.

Back to the thread topic.

Civ, I can't believe people are so dense as to argue with you on this. Of course, socioeconomic factors play a significant role in crime.

packgrad said:

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Ok, great. How many years of training do officers need before it counts? Minneapolis has the training. Chauvin was a training officer training 2 of the 3 other officers with him, so he presumably had even more training.

Minneapolis banned the scary worded "Bulletproof Warrior" a year ago. How long until that counts?

One police officer did something and now we're trying to put it on all police officers. One police officer who had the training you said was needed to prevent this.

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Since 1982, drunk driving deaths in this country have fallen 50% and have fallen 71% for drivers under 21. This cannot be attributed to increased overall driver or auto safety, as overall auto crash fatalities have only declined 17%.

Much of this decrease is attributed to the success of MADD and the Foundation for Advancing Alcohol Responsibility and their various coalition campaigns.

Yet, despite the tremendous success of these campaigns, 10,500 people died in car crashes due to drunk driving last year.

Should I go find specific examples of bad DUI outcomes and some use that to justify the case that the overall effort isn't working?

"Broadcast networks ABC, CBS, and NBC have been consistent cheerleaders for the nationwide protests against police brutality, offering nearly 12 hours of coverage (710 minutes) over the past seven days on just their flagship morning and evening news shows. But despite dedicating all of those hours of airtime to the protests and riots, these networks have barely breathed a word about those who have died in the resulting violence.

MRC analysts examined all three broadcast networks' major morning and evening newscasts between May 28 and June 3, and found that the total airtime spent on those who died during the past week of riots accounted to just four and a half minutes, or less than one percent of the total protest-related coverage.

CBS spent just a single minute (61 seconds) on individuals killed during the riots, amounting to half a percent of their 201 minutes of protest coverage. ABC gave the victims 91 seconds, or 0.76 percent of their total 200 minutes spent on the demonstrations. On NBC, the victims received just over two minutes, or 0.7% of the network's 309 minutes of protest-related programming.

According to the Associated Press, at least ten individuals have been killed in the riots over the past week, including at least three unarmed African-Americans."

https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/bill-dagostino/2020/06/04/study-993-percent-broadcast-networks-protest-coverage-ignores

Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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Ok, great. How many years of training do officers need before it counts? Minneapolis has the training. Chauvin was a training officer training 2 of the 3 other officers with him, so he presumably had even more training.

Minneapolis banned the scary worded "Bulletproof Warrior" a year ago. How long until that counts?

One police officer did something and now we're trying to put it on all police officers. One police officer who had the training you said was needed to prevent this.

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Since 1982, drunk driving deaths in this country have fallen 50% and have fallen 71% for drivers under 21. This cannot be attributed to increased overall driver or auto safety, as overall auto crash fatalities have only declined 17%.

Much of this decrease is attributed to the success of MADD and the Foundation for Advancing Alcohol Responsibility and their various coalition campaigns.

Yet, despite the tremendous success of these campaigns, 10,500 people died in car crashes due to drunk driving last year.

Should I go find specific examples of bad DUI outcomes and some use that to justify the case that the overall effort isn't working?

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Umm. The rioters are using the singular event to say it isn't working.

Doesn't appear these suspects match the demographic that is considered newsworthy.

packgrad said:

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Doesn't appear these suspects match the demographic that is considered newsworthy.

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Scanned CBS twitter feed and not a mention of this. BBBBBUUUUUUTTTT a white guy tearing up flyers saying BLM and honoring George Floyd is news.

Also, White people not posting what black people want is news.

Nothing about these suspects though.

Heh! It's going to take a lot more than outing the systemic racism that permeates this country and the resulting genocidal cops to get self absorbed white people to stop posting selfies and updating others on every minute of their lives on social media.

This thread is a prime example of what I've been saying for years and years. You have two people going back and forth, neither willing to see the others views or take the time to understand the others opinions. Two people steadfast in their belief they are right and the other is wrong. Just as the two political parties are. You have two sides unwilling to even consider what the other is saying. Therefore, you solve nothing and accomplish nothing. Just as things work now and have for years in DC. While this is happening, you have a large amount of the population, sitting in the middle, willing and able to see both sides but never being heard because the two sides are determined they are right and the other is wrong. It's a never ending cycle of back and forth that after time, brings you right back to where you started and that is nowhere.

When does the Asian Privilege Outrage begin ?

Pacfanweb said:

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I'm just suggesting...really...proving, that both sides have lots to work on. Blacks can't keep complaining about police treatment, or killing of blacks when blacks themselves kill FAR more of each other than cops ever do. And nobody says much about that, other than lip service.

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Your'e right that black Americans get arrested more. What are the reasons why?

Given the link between poverty, lack of education, lack of housing security, lack of food security, and crime, you'd expect there to be some uptick of crime in the black community since they're disproportionately affected.

But what about racial profiling and bias in policing and the justice system? Go read "Suspect Citizens." 20 million traffic stops analyzed. Huge data set. Blacks are twice as likely as whites to get pulled over and four times as likely to be subjected to a search despite being LESS likely than whites for that search to produce contraband. (32% of whites searched produce contraband and 29% of blacks searched do).

In Kansas City blacks are 2.7x more likely to be pulled over in an 'investigatory stop' (no citation issued), and five times more likely to be searched.

The Justice Department corroborated this; in one recent study of theirs they determined black drivers are 3x more likely to be searched than white drivers nationwide.

Blacks facing low-level criminal charges are 68 percent less likely to have their charges dismissed in court compared to white Americans.

In Milwaukee between 2010 and 2017 in nearly half of the more than 700,000 such stops the police failed to demonstrate reasonable suspicion as required by the Constitution. In those searches black people were 6x more likely to be stopped and searched than white people, and less than 1 percent of those searches turned up any contraband.

In a study in Oakland several years ago, a study of interactions between officers and citizens taken from body cameras found that "officers speak with consistently less respect toward black versus white community members, even after controlling for the race of the officer, the severity of the infraction, the location of the stop, and the outcome of the stop."

A study in New York City showed that black people are arrested for marijuana at 8x the rate of white people. In Manhattan, it's 15x as much. Black neighborhoods produce far more arrests than white neighborhoods, despite data showing a similar rate at which residents use marijuana.

A study sampling 6,000 college students at non-HBCU's and 6,000 black students at HBCU's found students from HBCUs reported significantly lower rates of marijuana, cocaine, sedatives, hallucinogens, and other illicit drug use than students at non-HBCUs.

According to National Registry of Exonerations studies black people are 5x more likely to go to prison for drug possession than white people. They are also 12x more likely to be wrongly convicted of drug crimes.

Mock jury studies involve gauging mock juror reactions to different types of suspect. Mock jurors are more likely to evaluate ambiguous, race-neutral evidence against the dark-skinned suspect as incriminating and more likely to find the dark-skinned suspect guilty.

I didn't have to look hard for this information. There's a mountain of evidence out there that the police and justice system isn't equal-opportunity when it comes to crime identification and sentencing outcomes.

This is the reality of Black Americans today. You're not significantly more likely to be a low-level criminal (as evidenced by relative rates of finding contraband during police searches, the relative rates of drug use between blacks and whites, etc.) but you are significantly more likely to be profiled and searched, and if you are arrested, you will have a poorer outcome once in the system. You'll have worse representation, have a longer sentence, and be less likely to have your sentence reduced.

When George Floyd and other lighting rods light a fuse in our society, it's all this information that's the powder keg. It's not just about George Floyd (tragic as that singular event may have been). The protests speak to a broader and deeper frustration and distrust of policing and criminal justice in this country that impacts black Americans every day.

packgrad said:

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Civilized said:

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Should I go find specific examples of bad DUI outcomes and some use that to justify the case that the overall effort isn't working?

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Umm. The rioters are using the singular event to say it isn't working.

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Policing and criminal justice clearly isn't working for black Americans. Read my post directly above.

Rioters aren't just angry about Floyd. They're angry about Floyd, and the totality of their experience with policing and the criminal justice system.

Civilized said:

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Pacfanweb said:

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I'm just suggesting...really...proving, that both sides have lots to work on. Blacks can't keep complaining about police treatment, or killing of blacks when blacks themselves kill FAR more of each other than cops ever do. And nobody says much about that, other than lip service.

---

Your'e right that black Americans get arrested more. What are the reasons why?

Given the link between poverty, lack of education, lack of housing security, lack of food security, and crime, you'd expect there to be some uptick of crime in the black community since they're disproportionately affected.

But what about racial profiling and bias in policing and the justice system? Go read "Suspect Citizens." 20 million traffic stops analyzed. Huge data set. Blacks are twice as likely as whites to get pulled over and four times as likely to be subjected to a search despite being LESS likely than whites for that search to produce contraband. (32% of whites searched produce contraband and 29% of blacks searched do).

In Kansas City blacks are 2.7x more likely to be pulled over in an 'investigatory stop' (no citation issued), and five times more likely to be searched.

The Justice Department corroborated this; in one recent study of theirs they determined black drivers are 3x more likely to be searched than white drivers nationwide.

Blacks facing low-level criminal charges are 68 percent less likely to have their charges dismissed in court compared to white Americans.

In Milwaukee between 2010 and 2017 in nearly half of the more than 700,000 such stops the police failed to demonstrate reasonable suspicion as required by the Constitution. In those searches black people were 6x more likely to be stopped and searched than white people, and less than 1 percent of those searches turned up any contraband.

In a study in Oakland several years ago, a study of interactions between officers and citizens taken from body cameras found that "officers speak with consistently less respect toward black versus white community members, even after controlling for the race of the officer, the severity of the infraction, the location of the stop, and the outcome of the stop."

A study in New York City showed that black people are arrested for marijuana at 8x the rate of white people. In Manhattan, it's 15x as much. Black neighborhoods produce far more arrests than white neighborhoods, despite data showing a similar rate at which residents use marijuana.

A study sampling 6,000 college students at non-HBCU's and 6,000 black students at HBCU's found students from HBCUs reported significantly lower rates of marijuana, cocaine, sedatives, hallucinogens, and other illicit drug use than students at non-HBCUs.

According to National Registry of Exonerations studies black people are 5x more likely to go to prison for drug possession than white people. They are also 12x more likely to be wrongly convicted of drug crimes.

Mock jury studies involve gauging mock juror reactions to different types of suspect. Mock jurors are more likely to evaluate ambiguous, race-neutral evidence against the dark-skinned suspect as incriminating and more likely to find the dark-skinned suspect guilty.

I didn't have to look hard for this information. There's a mountain of evidence out there that the police and justice system isn't equal-opportunity when it comes to crime identification and sentencing outcomes.

This is the reality of Black Americans today. You're not significantly more likely to be a low-level criminal (as evidenced by relative rates of finding contraband during police searches, the relative rates of drug use between blacks and whites, etc.) but you are significantly more likely to be profiled and searched, and if you are arrested, you will have a poorer outcome once in the system. You'll have worse representation, have a longer sentence, and be less likely to have your sentence reduced.

When George Floyd and other lighting rods light a fuse in our society, it's all this information that's the powder keg. It's not just about George Floyd (tragic as that singular event may have been). The protests speak to a broader and deeper frustration and distrust of policing and criminal justice in this country that impacts black Americans every day.

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You just made a long post and what you listed may very be true but you completely ignored his comment even after quoting him.

RunsWithWolves26 said:

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You just made a long post and what you listed may very be true but you completely ignored his comment even after quoting him.

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My bad if so.

What did I ignore?

Civilized said:

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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You just made a long post and what you listed may very be true but you completely ignored his comment even after quoting him.

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My bad if so.

What did I ignore?

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His comment pertained to blacks killing blacks. I'm thinking you may have quoted him and responded by mistake