RunsWithWolves26 said:

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Civilized said:

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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You just made a long post and what you listed may very be true but you completely ignored his comment even after quoting him.

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My bad if so.

What did I ignore?

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His comment pertained to blacks killing blacks. I'm thinking you may have quoted him and responded by mistake

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Pacfanweb said:

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I'm just suggesting...really...proving, that both sides have lots to work on. Blacks can't keep complaining about police treatment, or killing of blacks when blacks themselves kill FAR more of each other than cops ever do. And nobody says much about that, other than lip service.

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My post was a response to the bolded portion of his quote above, and also to his stance on 'blacks commit crime at higher rates' than whites that comprise most of the rest of his post.

Regarding the bolded portion of his post, blacks demonstrably have plenty to complain about with regard to police treatment. That was my whole post. Blacks are policed, arrested, convicted, and sentenced much more aggressively than whites.

These protests are clearly not just about George Floyd, they're about black American's place in the policing and criminal justice systems in this country.

Any murders are too many, but cop killings and black-on-black killings have no direct relationship. Why do they have to do with one another?

Murders are rarely random; you murder who you know. Most murderers and murder victims are the same race, across all races, because the perp and victim know each other. Last I looked, around 85% of murders committed by white or black people were perpetrated by a killer that was the same race as the victim.

Like 82% of white murders are committed by white perps. Nobody talks about white-on-white murders either; there's nothing to talk about.

cowboypack02 said:

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You guys are having quite the back and forth but I wanted to weigh in here on where I think the breakdown is....

I think that what hurts the African American community the most is the lack of 2 parents in the household. 74.3% of all while children under the age of 18 live in a 2 parent household, while only 37.8% of African American minors can say the same.

To break that down even further over 33% of African American children live with an unmarried mother, compared to 6.5% of white children.

That is a huge difference in cultures and what children are exposed to. Children in single parent households typically struggle with poverty, lack of education, and less access to healthcare. This of course leads to a whole litany of other issues such as exposure to crime and drug use at a young age, as well as less of an emphasis on education and healthcare.

I don't know how to fix the family structure there, but I think by solving that it will help solve alot of the problems that plague African American kids.

My two cents...

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I agree with this very much. Instability is terribly impactful on kids. My wife sees this so much in the school system with struggling single moms and/or food and housing insecurity, and the behavioral and educational impacts of that on kids in early education.

Children in families with cohabiting parents or a lone parent are twice as likely not to graduate from high school.

When you have two adults cooperating to raise kids, there is way more time, money, and resources to pour into the kids' opportunities.

Stability begets good outcomes and more stability; Instability does the exact opposite.

Civilized said:

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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Civilized said:

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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You just made a long post and what you listed may very be true but you completely ignored his comment even after quoting him.

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My bad if so.

What did I ignore?

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His comment pertained to blacks killing blacks. I'm thinking you may have quoted him and responded by mistake

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Pacfanweb said:

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I'm just suggesting...really...proving, that both sides have lots to work on. Blacks can't keep complaining about police treatment, or killing of blacks when blacks themselves kill FAR more of each other than cops ever do. And nobody says much about that, other than lip service.

---

My post was a response to the bolded portion of his quote above, and also to his stance on 'blacks commit crime at higher rates' than whites that comprise most of the rest of his post.

Regarding the bolded portion of his post, blacks demonstrably have plenty to complain about with regard to police treatment. That was my whole post. Blacks are policed, arrested, convicted, and sentenced much more aggressively than whites.

These protests are clearly not just about George Floyd, they're about black American's place in the policing and criminal justice systems in this country.

Any murders are too many, but cop killings and black-on-black killings have no direct relationship. Why do they have to do with one another?

Murders are rarely random; you murder who you know. Most murderers and murder victims are the same race, across all races, because the perp and victim know each other. Last I looked, around 85% of murders committed by white or black people were perpetrated by a killer that was the same race as the victim.

Like 82% of white murders are committed by white perps. Nobody talks about white-on-white murders either; there's nothing to talk about.

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Ok. Just checking. Basically you're responding back to part of his comment and ignoring the other portion of it. Kinda goes back to what I said earlier. No one wants to see the other side's points.

Edited to ask. Why are dozens of black people killed by black people each month in Chicago not worth the outrage that one black man killed by a cop gets? I'm asking honestly. I know this country is full of selective outrage but dozens per month as compared to on average .8 per month by cops, seems as though it should warrant a response bigger then George Floyd has.

RunsWithWolves26 said:

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Ok. Just checking. Basically you're responding back to part of his comment and ignoring the other portion of it. Kinda goes back to what I said earlier. No one wants to see the other side's points.

Edited to ask. Why are dozens of black people killed by black people each month in Chicago not worth the outrage that one black man killed by a cop gets? I'm asking honestly. I know this country is full of selective outrage but dozens per month as compared to on average .8 per month by cops, seems as though it should warrant a response bigger then George Floyd has.

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I still don't understand what part of his post I'm ignoring. I responded to 95% of his post about black policing and criminal justice, and said I don't see what black on black murder has to do with the black community's outrage about the way they're policed or handled in the criminal justice system.

The way they're handled in criminal justice is unique to them, and unique in our system. No other ethnic group has such negative outcomes. Not even close.

I completely agree with you that gang violence is a huge problem.

Civilized said:

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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Ok. Just checking. Basically you're responding back to part of his comment and ignoring the other portion of it. Kinda goes back to what I said earlier. No one wants to see the other side's points.

Edited to ask. Why are dozens of black people killed by black people each month in Chicago not worth the outrage that one black man killed by a cop gets? I'm asking honestly. I know this country is full of selective outrage but dozens per month as compared to on average .8 per month by cops, seems as though it should warrant a response bigger then George Floyd has.

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I still don't understand what part of his post I'm ignoring. I responded to 95% of his post about black policing and criminal justice, and said I don't see what black on black murder has to do with the black community's outrage about the way they're policed or handled in the criminal justice system.

The way they're handled in criminal justice is unique to them, and unique in our system. No other ethnic group has such negative outcomes. Not even close.

I completely agree with you that gang violence is a huge problem.

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Why isn't the black community outraged over the hundreds and maybe thousands of blacks that kill blacks every year? Is it because it wasn't a white copy so they don't want to attack themselves? I'm seriously asking. Is it because they don't want to look in the mirror and own it or is it because they don't want to be the target, it's easier that it was a white cop that did it? I just can't figure out how hundreds of blacks kill each other every year yet they never March the streets, never protest, never get as upset as they are now. Regardless, nothing I say is going to change your mind it even cause thought to happen. It's as I said above. Some people only want to see their side of things. I see your side and agree with some of it. You fail to see or even acknowledge with an answer, why the black community doesn't go crazy over all the black on black murders.

Edited to add. 88% of the time in 2017 when a black person was murdered, it was another black person that did it. Why not the outrage for this??

"Blacks are policed, arrested, convicted, and sentenced much more aggressively than whites."
I mostly addressed this.
They are policed most heavily because their neighborhoods are where the most 911 calls come from.
They are also policed more heavily because they commit crimes at such a high rate.

The convictions and sentencing follows suit.
And I also mentioned that their outcomes in court cases probably have something to do with their economic status... As I said before, people with more money can hire better attorneys. It doesn't have anything to do with being black, it has something to do with being poor.
Hispanics also have less favorable outcomes when they go to court... They just don't commit as many crimes.

Finally, I believe that blacks commit so many crimes because they tend to be less successful in life. And that's due primarily to education. Now you can come up with an a number of reasons why they don't educate themselves, but education is the key.

Pacfanweb said:

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"Blacks are policed, arrested, convicted, and sentenced much more aggressively than whites."
I mostly addressed this.
They are policed most heavily because their neighborhoods are where the most 911 calls come from.
They are also policed more heavily because they commit crimes at such a high rate.

The convictions and sentencing follows suit.
And I also mentioned that their outcomes in court cases probably have something to do with their economic status... As I said before, people with more money can hire better attorneys. It doesn't have anything to do with being black, it has something to do with being poor.
Hispanics also have less favorable outcomes when they go to court... They just don't commit as many crimes.

Finally, I believe that blacks commit so many crimes because they tend to be less successful in life. And that's due primarily to education. Now you can come up with an a number of reasons why they don't educate themselves, but education is the key.

---

Address this:

In New York City black people are arrested for marijuana possession at 8x the rate of white people. In Manhattan, it's 15x as much. Yet, black New Yorkers use marijuana at approximately the same rate as white New Yorkers.

According to National Registry of Exonerations studies black people are 5x more likely to go to prison for drug possession than white people. They are also 12x more likely to be wrongly convicted of drug crimes.

Blacks and whites use marijuana at approximately the same rate nationwide.

Why, then, are blacks being arrested for marijuana possession, convicted, and wrongfully convicted at staggeringly higher rates than whites when the two communities use marijuana at the same rate?

Totally agree; great post. This BLM movement is about the racial violence and inequality. To mention black on black crime is a moving of the goal posts of the highest order.

PackBacker07 said:

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Totally agree; great post. This BLM movement is about the racial violence and inequality. To mention black on black crime is a moving of the goal posts of the highest order.

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I'm not moving anything. I'm outraged over the George Floyd situation. But in also outraged over the black on black crime. Am I not allowed to be outraged by both? I'm simply asking why one gets more attention then the other. I get all the answers people want to throw at it but facts are facts. Whether by cop or by your own people, murder is terrible. Why shouldn't their be outrage over both sides of it? Moving of the goalpost of the "highest order." Seriously? I literally ask a question as to why one is so outrageous and the other is tolerated. Murder is murder. Period. Again, people see what they want to see. They can't look at anything two ways. It's their way or the highway. BLM is about racism violence and inequality? Where the hell is the movement over violence against each other? Y'all have fun talking back and forth to each other and getting nowhere. Address the ISSUES not just a single ISSUE.

This is incredible. The mayor placated for the mob all week but was forced to do the Game of Thrones style walk of shame tonight. Just shows how quick the liberal left will turn on you. Anybody could be next. Cant wait to see what happens when/if Biden is asked this question.

Defunding the police is not the answer Democrat's are gonna push for a lawless community as a result of this awful situation

Td21pack said:

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Defunding the police is not the answer Democrat's are gonna push for a lawless community as a result of this awful situation

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Rather than defunding I'd much rather see that money applied to more training on de-escalation and more police community outreach.

Get officers into neighborhoods with traditionally higher crime rates for reasons other than patrolling them. Host block fairs, pickup basketball games, barbecues where kids eat free, wellness checks on senior residents, meals-on-wheels deliveries, whatever. Engage. Listen. Talk.

Allow officers time and resources to develop relationship with neighborhood leaders and influencers and residents. More compassionate connection and stronger relationships between police and the community would improve outcomes for both.

Bas2020 said:

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statefan91 said:

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Bas2020 said:

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77 year old black man shot in the head by looters while protecting his business . Crazy that people in this country are still supporting the looters and Antifa . Hopefully this tragic death will be the end of things .

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Who is supporting looters? People are supporting protesters that are saddened to see a black man killed by police.

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Bill Deblassio for one . He flat out said he supports the looters , heck his daughter was one . Read twitter and there are hundreds of public figures supporting violence . Not hard to find .

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Funny. The entirety of the protests and marches in NYC hate DeBlasio. His own staffers have denounced him.

If you think he supports anything other than the police union, you're living in a fantasy-land of your own making.

Civilized said:

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Pacfanweb said:

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"Blacks are policed, arrested, convicted, and sentenced much more aggressively than whites."
I mostly addressed this.
They are policed most heavily because their neighborhoods are where the most 911 calls come from.
They are also policed more heavily because they commit crimes at such a high rate.

The convictions and sentencing follows suit.
And I also mentioned that their outcomes in court cases probably have something to do with their economic status... As I said before, people with more money can hire better attorneys. It doesn't have anything to do with being black, it has something to do with being poor.
Hispanics also have less favorable outcomes when they go to court... They just don't commit as many crimes.

Finally, I believe that blacks commit so many crimes because they tend to be less successful in life. And that's due primarily to education. Now you can come up with an a number of reasons why they don't educate themselves, but education is the key.

---

Address this:

In New York City black people are arrested for marijuana possession at 8x the rate of white people. In Manhattan, it's 15x as much. Yet, black New Yorkers use marijuana at approximately the same rate as white New Yorkers.

According to National Registry of Exonerations studies black people are 5x more likely to go to prison for drug possession than white people. They are also 12x more likely to be wrongly convicted of drug crimes.

Blacks and whites use marijuana at approximately the same rate nationwide.

Why, then, are blacks being arrested for marijuana possession, convicted, and wrongfully convicted at staggeringly higher rates than whites when the two communities use marijuana at the same rate?

---

Pretty simple.
First, more people call to complain/report marijuana in those neighborhoods, which is stated in the article you read.
Second, all those arrests for pot, white/black/hispanic, were not JUST for pot. Many were a marijuana charge along with something else. And since blacks commit crimes at a higher rate than anyone else, there you go.
Third, more police presence in black/hispanic neighborhoods....because that's where the crime is. So they naturally talk to and find illegal things more often...because they are present, and that's where most of the crime is.

As far as the convictions, already covered that. Blacks have worse outcomes, income-wise, than do whites. They have less money, therefore less money to hire a better attorney, therefore their court cases don't go as well for them. That's pretty simple to understand, I think.

And as I've said before, education is the key. Get them to value and really work at education, and the rest will slowly come around.

On a side note, pot should be legal, and taxed. But that's another conversation.

GoPack2008 said:

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Bas2020 said:

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statefan91 said:

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Bas2020 said:

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77 year old black man shot in the head by looters while protecting his business . Crazy that people in this country are still supporting the looters and Antifa . Hopefully this tragic death will be the end of things .

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Who is supporting looters? People are supporting protesters that are saddened to see a black man killed by police.

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Bill Deblassio for one . He flat out said he supports the looters , heck his daughter was one . Read twitter and there are hundreds of public figures supporting violence . Not hard to find .

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Funny. The entirety of the protests and marches in NYC hate DeBlasio. His own staffers have denounced him.

If you think he supports anything other than the police union, you're living in a fantasy-land of your own making.

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That's another big problem. Police don't easily give up their own, and that's BS. If there's a bad cop and other cops know it, they shouldn't protect him and we know they do. They should turn on him and help get rid of him, but we know for a fact that isn't the way it works, and it's a huge part of the problem IMO.
If the police themselves don't police the police, who will?

Bas2020 said:

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Civilized said:

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Td21pack said:

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Defunding the police is not the answer Democrat's are gonna push for a lawless community as a result of this awful situation

---

Rather than defunding I'd much rather see that money applied to more training on de-escalation and more police community outreach.

Get officers into neighborhoods with traditionally higher crime rates for reasons other than patrolling them. Host block fairs, pickup basketball games, barbecues where kids eat free, wellness checks on senior residents, meals-on-wheels deliveries, whatever. Engage. Listen. Talk.

Allow officers time and resources to develop relationship with neighborhood leaders and influencers and residents. More compassionate connection and stronger relationships between police and the community would improve outcomes for both.

---

That's all great and makes sense . Question of course naturally arises that why haven't Democrat leaders done anything about it the last 50 years in which they've had total control in all these metro areas ?

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De-escalation and use of force training is a relatively new concept in policing. It's been highly successful where it's been implemented but only started being rolled out signficantly in the last 5 or 6 years across the country.

The problem isn't limited to Democratic cities. Police killings are going down rather dramatically over the last 7 years in big cities due to the success of use of force training, but there's been a commensurate increase in police killings in suburban and rural areas such that the overall rate of police killing hasn't declined over the same period.

More conservative-controlled suburban and rural areas are now facing the same challenge. What is their leadership going to do about it?

There's nothing inherently political about the issue of citizen treatment in policing and the justice system. Boots on the ground law enforcement shouldn't be partisan.

If you want to see how complicit big tech is in controlling the liberal narrative, google "police murdered in big cities" "police killed in large cities", "how many police killed in large cities".

Pacfanweb said:

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Civilized said:

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Pacfanweb said:

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"Blacks are policed, arrested, convicted, and sentenced much more aggressively than whites."
I mostly addressed this.
They are policed most heavily because their neighborhoods are where the most 911 calls come from.
They are also policed more heavily because they commit crimes at such a high rate.

The convictions and sentencing follows suit.
And I also mentioned that their outcomes in court cases probably have something to do with their economic status... As I said before, people with more money can hire better attorneys. It doesn't have anything to do with being black, it has something to do with being poor.
Hispanics also have less favorable outcomes when they go to court... They just don't commit as many crimes.

Finally, I believe that blacks commit so many crimes because they tend to be less successful in life. And that's due primarily to education. Now you can come up with an a number of reasons why they don't educate themselves, but education is the key.

---

Address this:

In New York City black people are arrested for marijuana possession at 8x the rate of white people. In Manhattan, it's 15x as much. Yet, black New Yorkers use marijuana at approximately the same rate as white New Yorkers.

According to National Registry of Exonerations studies black people are 5x more likely to go to prison for drug possession than white people. They are also 12x more likely to be wrongly convicted of drug crimes.

Blacks and whites use marijuana at approximately the same rate nationwide.

Why, then, are blacks being arrested for marijuana possession, convicted, and wrongfully convicted at staggeringly higher rates than whites when the two communities use marijuana at the same rate?

---

Pretty simple.
First, more people call to complain/report marijuana in those neighborhoods, which is stated in the article you read.
Second, all those arrests for pot, white/black/hispanic, were not JUST for pot. Many were a marijuana charge along with something else. And since blacks commit crimes at a higher rate than anyone else, there you go.
Third, more police presence in black/hispanic neighborhoods....because that's where the crime is. So they naturally talk to and find illegal things more often...because they are present, and that's where most of the crime is.

As far as the convictions, already covered that. Blacks have worse outcomes, income-wise, than do whites. They have less money, therefore less money to hire a better attorney, therefore their court cases don't go as well for them. That's pretty simple to understand, I think.

And as I've said before, education is the key. Get them to value and really work at education, and the rest will slowly come around.

On a side note, pot should be legal, and taxed. But that's another conversation.

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"And since blacks commit crimes at a higher rate than anyone else, there you go" is precisely the problem in your analysis.

There you go...what? There you go, making stuff up to fit your narrative?

Craft a narrative to explain this away:

As reported in the book "Suspect Citizens": 20 million traffic stops across the country analyzed. A massive data set.

Blacks are 2x likely as whites to get pulled over and 4x as likely to be subjected to a search despite being LESS likely than whites for that search to produce contraband. (32% of whites searched produce contraband and 29% of blacks searched do).

You can't explain away pulling over and searching black Americans at 2x and 4x the rates of whites by anything other than racial bias, and you see that bias play out in many different ways in policing and criminal justice. There is no underlying increased criminality to support targeting black American drivers.

If you pull over 2x as many whites as you do currently, and search 4x as many whites, you'd realize you have a lot more white criminals out there than you think you do, and you'd stop seeing black Americans as significantly more likely to commit crimes than whites, per capita.

Again, blacks are LESS likely to produce contraband than whites over a sample size of 20 million traffic stops.

Take some of that energy you're using to craft false narratives and go look at the data. It's irrefutable.

It's not a false narrative that black neighborhoods have more 911 calls.

It's not a false narrative that black people commit murders at a FAR higher rate than whites do:
Here's 2013 since that was the first one that popped up, but it's pretty much always the same:

Total murders: 5,723

Committed by:
Whites: 2,755 48%
Blacks: 2,698 47%

Not a "false narrative". We aren't imagining things. These numbers are from the FBI and are irrefutable. Whether the numbers from that book were fairly analyzed and are "irrefutable" remains to be seen. They might be, they might not be. It simply might not be telling the whole story, which is sadly typical these days.
If they are accurate, then I'm totally willing to agree that some things need to change.

But my numbers here are NOT debatable. Roughly 13% of the population commits damn near HALF the murders.
You think that's an outlier and other crime is more even?

Think again:

2017 Robbery: 73,764 total
By:
White: 32,128 43%
Black: 40,024 54%


Rape: 18,063 total
By:
White: 12,187 67%
Black: 5,182 28.6%

Aggravated Assault: 302,941 total

White: 188,087 62%
Black: 101,513 33%

Burglary: 154,970

White: 104,671 67%
Black: 46,227 29%


Motor Vehicle Theft: 70,617

White: 46,621 66%
Black: 21,415 30%


Larceny-Theft: 740,546

White: 501,231 67%
Black: 215,650 29%


Violent Crime: 404,236

White: 236,590 58%
Black: 151,744 37%

Property Crime: 973,219

White: 657,574 67%
Black: 285,080 29%


Shall I keep going?

Whites commit crime at roughly 5% less than their percentage of the population.

Blacks commit crime at over twice their percentage of the population.

And you wonder why police treat them differently?

I'm not saying it's right, and I'm not saying the police can't do better....but the facts are the facts...if you're going to be FAR more likely, as a people, to commit crime, you can't be too surprised when law enforcement sees you and thinks you're more likely to be up to something.

I was typing and didn't see the post calling for a return to the topic.

My apologies, I agree. Will gladly move mine to a new topic if one is created.

Pacfanweb said:

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It's not a false narrative that black neighborhoods have more 911 calls.

It's not a false narrative that black people commit murders at a FAR higher rate than whites do:
Here's 2013 since that was the first one that popped up, but it's pretty much always the same:

Total murders: 5,723

Committed by:
Whites: 2,755 48%
Blacks: 2,698 47%

Not a "false narrative". We aren't imagining things. These numbers are from the FBI and are irrefutable. Whether the numbers from that book were fairly analyzed and are "irrefutable" remains to be seen. They might be, they might not be. It simply might not be telling the whole story, which is sadly typical these days.
If they are accurate, then I'm totally willing to agree that some things need to change.

But my numbers here are NOT debatable. Roughly 13% of the population commits damn near HALF the murders.
You think that's an outlier and other crime is more even?

Think again:

2017 Robbery: 73,764 total
By:
White: 32,128 43%
Black: 40,024 54%


Rape: 18,063 total
By:
White: 12,187 67%
Black: 5,182 28.6%

Aggravated Assault: 302,941 total

White: 188,087 62%
Black: 101,513 33%

Burglary: 154,970

White: 104,671 67%
Black: 46,227 29%


Motor Vehicle Theft: 70,617

White: 46,621 66%
Black: 21,415 30%


Larceny-Theft: 740,546

White: 501,231 67%
Black: 215,650 29%


Violent Crime: 404,236

White: 236,590 58%
Black: 151,744 37%

Property Crime: 973,219

White: 657,574 67%
Black: 285,080 29%


Shall I keep going?

Whites commit crime at roughly 5% less than their percentage of the population.

Blacks commit crime at over twice their percentage of the population.

And you wonder why police treat them differently?

I'm not saying it's right, and I'm not saying the police can't do better....but the facts are the facts...if you're going to be FAR more likely, as a people, to commit crime, you can't be too surprised when law enforcement sees you and thinks you're more likely to be up to something.

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Facts often hurt people's feelings these days .

It would suck being a Muslim and getting stared at or profiled when you go to an airport - but that happens by whites and blacks .

We all profile each other wether we want to admit it or not - even people we may call friends we assume we can judge them based on x, y, z. Appearance , race , facial expressions , clothing etc . Heck light and dark skinned blacks judge each other differently .

Pacfanweb said:

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Whites commit crime at roughly 5% less than their percentage of the population.

Blacks commit crime at over twice their percentage of the population.

And you wonder why police treat them differently?

I'm not saying it's right, and I'm not saying the police can't do better....but the facts are the facts...if you're going to be FAR more likely, as a people, to commit crime, you can't be too surprised when law enforcement sees you and thinks you're more likely to be up to something.

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You keep conflating "committing" crime and "being convicted of" crime. All those stats you cite are conviction statistics, not statistics on committing crime.

Do you understand they're not the same thing?

Either you don't understand the difference, or you're assuming that convictions are a proxy for committing crime which is an erroneous assumption.

To have been judged to have "committed" a crime and show up in a statistic, you must be 1. arrested, 2. charged and 3. convicted.

A white person that never gets arrested, never gets charged, gets off altogether, or gets it reduced to a less serious offense will not show up as having committed the crime he's accused of. Black Americans get arrested, charged, and convicted at higher rates than white Americans THAT ARE ALSO SUSPECTED OF CRIME.

Tootie4Pack said:

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Look, you guys have been going back and forth for two days discussing crime statistics and police policy and standards and training. Some of it really good discussion , some of it back and forth to seemingly piss each other off.

This topic title is David Dorn. A 38 year police veteran who was loved and admired and respected by so many people in the St Louis area. He served his community in so many ways and his fellow officers and citizens speak very highly of him. He was brutally murdered, as was George Floyd.

If you want to continue this police policy discussion and talk about crime statistics , I respectfully ask that you please open another topic. Please keep the discussion on the subject in the post title. In this constantly changing world we live in, please pay Mr Dorn our respects for him by leaving this topic to discuss his service as a police officer for 38 years.

He may have been retired , but he died serving others.
Thank you for your service Mr Dorn.

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I would loved to have gotten Mr. Dorn's thoughts about the protests and riots that tragically took his life.

The reasons there were protests and riots are impossible to untangle from his death and that's what much of this thread is intended to debate.

However, to be clear, thank you for your service and RIP Mr. Dorn.

Civilized said:

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Tootie4Pack said:

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Look, you guys have been going back and forth for two days discussing crime statistics and police policy and standards and training. Some of it really good discussion , some of it back and forth to seemingly piss each other off.

This topic title is David Dorn. A 38 year police veteran who was loved and admired and respected by so many people in the St Louis area. He served his community in so many ways and his fellow officers and citizens speak very highly of him. He was brutally murdered, as was George Floyd.

If you want to continue this police policy discussion and talk about crime statistics , I respectfully ask that you please open another topic. Please keep the discussion on the subject in the post title. In this constantly changing world we live in, please pay Mr Dorn our respects for him by leaving this topic to discuss his service as a police officer for 38 years.

He may have been retired , but he died serving others.
Thank you for your service Mr Dorn.

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I would loved to have gotten Mr. Dorn's thoughts about the protests and riots that tragically took his life.

The reasons there were protests and riots are impossible to untangle from his death and that's what much of this thread is intended to debate.

However, to be clear, thank you for your service and RIP Mr. Dorn.

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Seeing how he was going down to get the looters out, I would say he was opposed to the looting and riots that took his life. But at least you finally acknowledged who the thread is about.

packgrad said:

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Seeing how he was going down to get the looters out, I would say he was opposed to the looting and riots that took his life. But at least you finally acknowledged who the thread is about.

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Given his history as a captain and officer of the law I'm certain he would have been opposed to the violence and looting that was tangential to the peaceful protesting and that resulted in his untimely death.

I also speculate he would be supportive of his death spurring conversation and debate regarding the underlying issues that fueled the protests that ended up setting off rioting and looting.

Not debating and talking about these issues is the worst possible thing we can do.

Civilized said:

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Pacfanweb said:

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Whites commit crime at roughly 5% less than their percentage of the population.

Blacks commit crime at over twice their percentage of the population.

And you wonder why police treat them differently?

I'm not saying it's right, and I'm not saying the police can't do better....but the facts are the facts...if you're going to be FAR more likely, as a people, to commit crime, you can't be too surprised when law enforcement sees you and thinks you're more likely to be up to something.

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You keep conflating "committing" crime and "being convicted of" crime. All those stats you cite are conviction statistics, not statistics on committing crime.

Do you understand they're not the same thing?

Either you don't understand the difference, or you're assuming that convictions are a proxy for committing crime which is an erroneous assumption.

To have been judged to have "committed" a crime and show up in a statistic, you must be 1. arrested, 2. charged and 3. convicted.

A white person that never gets arrested, never gets charged, gets off altogether, or gets it reduced to a less serious offense will not show up as having committed the crime he's accused of. Black Americans get arrested, charged, and convicted at higher rates than white Americans THAT ARE ALSO SUSPECTED OF CRIME.

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Dude....if you have more arrests, it's not because the police are simply LOOKING for more black people that murdered or robbed folks.
It's because more of them (as a percentage) murdered or robbed others in the first place...THAT is why more are arrested.

If it's just because cops are "targeting blacks" then that would imply that loads of whites are going scot-free after committing the same crimes, simply because the cops aren't targeting them.

But they're not. The cops don't patrol in North Ridge or Wakefield heavily because they are racist and there's really just as much crime there. And they don't patrol Southeast Raleigh heavily because they are racist and want to bust black people.
It's because "that's where the crime is".

There aren't huge numbers of robberies, murders, rapes, assaults, etc. just waiting for the cops to notice in other neighborhoods.

Yes, those are arrest numbers, but more blacks aren't being arrested for violent crime just because they're black...they're being arrested because THEY DID IT. For the most part.

Conviction rate, again...it's a result of economics. Poorer people can't afford the better attorneys, so they get harsher outcomes.
Is it possible that some other factors also are present. Sure. I can fully admit that, but you need to stop with the goalpost moving and deflecting and admit that the arrest #'s 100% prove that blacks are more likely to commit these crimes in the first place, and that they aren't being arrested for them simply because the color of their skin. Otherwise, this debate is useless, because you're not open minded enough to admit that's a huge problem.

Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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Seeing how he was going down to get the looters out, I would say he was opposed to the looting and riots that took his life. But at least you finally acknowledged who the thread is about.

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Given his history as a captain and officer of the law I'm certain he would have been opposed to the violence and looting that was tangential to the peaceful protesting and that resulted in his untimely death.

I also speculate he would be supportive of his death spurring conversation and debate regarding the underlying issues that fueled the protests that ended up setting off rioting and looting.

Not debating and talking about these issues is the worst possible thing we can do.

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Why would you speculate that? Because he was black?

Pacfanweb said:

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Dude....if you have more arrests, it's not because the police are simply LOOKING for more black people that murdered or robbed folks.
It's because more of them (as a percentage) murdered or robbed others in the first place...THAT is why more are arrested.

If it's just because cops are "targeting blacks" then that would imply that loads of whites are going scot-free after committing the same crimes, simply because the cops aren't targeting them.

But they're not. The cops don't patrol in North Ridge or Wakefield heavily because they are racist and there's really just as much crime there. And they don't patrol Southeast Raleigh heavily because they are racist and want to bust black people.
It's because "that's where the crime is".

There aren't huge numbers of robberies, murders, rapes, assaults, etc. just waiting for the cops to notice in other neighborhoods.

Yes, those are arrest numbers, but more blacks aren't being arrested for violent crime just because they're black...they're being arrested because THEY DID IT. For the most part.

Conviction rate, again...it's a result of economics. Poorer people can't afford the better attorneys, so they get harsher outcomes.
Is it possible that some other factors also are present. Sure. I can fully admit that, but you need to stop with the goalpost moving and deflecting and admit that the arrest #'s 100% prove that blacks are more likely to commit these crimes in the first place, and that they aren't being arrested for them simply because the color of their skin. Otherwise, this debate is useless, because you're not open minded enough to admit that's a huge problem.

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The police definitely are looking for more black people that commit crime, though.

It's why, in a data set with 20 million traffic stops, black Americans were twice as likely to be pulled and 4x as likely to be searched. And those searches turn up LESS contraband with blacks as compared to whites.

So explicit bias obviously does exist in policing and plays a huge role in more minor offenses like traffic stops, which can lead to more minor drug offenses. Again, if they pulled 2x as many white people as they do, and searched 4x as many as they do, they'd find more alcohol and drugs in their cars and you'd have more total white "criminals."

But you're right that for more serious crimes police mostly go where the evidence leads. If they have a composite sketch of a killer that's a white dude they're not out there prowling black neighborhoods looking for a black dude to bring in and charge.

Implicit racial bias plays just as much a role as explicit bias, and it's more nuanced.

To ultimately get convicted, you've first got to get charged with a crime. Prosecutors make those decisions. And they decide much more frequently with black defendants than white, to move forward with charges. White defendants in Wisconsin for instance are 25 percent more likely than their black counterparts to have criminal charges dropped or reduced to less serious crimes. That reduces "white crime" statistics relative to "black crime."

To counter this racial bias, that results in a disproportionate number of blacks being charged with crimes and fewer whites being charged than you'd expect given the raw number of arrests of suspects, you're starting to see a move towards "blind charging," which is where all information regarding the race of of suspect is redacted from the prosecutor's report.

If there isn't bias in charging black suspects (and not charging whites), why the new and much-needed movement by judicial systems towards blind charging?