Coronavirus
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Last: 1 day ago by Werewolf
Graham Ledger discusses and suggests tools to fight tyranny legally. Do not allow the Marxists to divide America.
Legal Tools to Defend 170 Million Strong No Vax Americans! (redvoicemedia.com)
Legal Tools to Defend 170 Million Strong No Vax Americans! (redvoicemedia.com)
theyre in cahoots with each other in their pursuit of power, its in my belief that they wish this was a system like in Chicago where the Mayor holds all the power, luckily for us in NC it doesnt work that way.
theyre also trying to push this "rejuvenate Maple Avenue" project which is a street that runs from I-40 through the ghetto to downtown Burlington, this project is estimated around $25 million taxpayer dollars and im sure is to make some of their buddies profit of the construction while City Employees Wages fall further behind(supervisors have told the manager that they have lost good employees for a 0.25 raise...)
https://www.facebook.com/106655521752424/photos/a.115249750893001/123422556742387/
theyre also trying to push this "rejuvenate Maple Avenue" project which is a street that runs from I-40 through the ghetto to downtown Burlington, this project is estimated around $25 million taxpayer dollars and im sure is to make some of their buddies profit of the construction while City Employees Wages fall further behind(supervisors have told the manager that they have lost good employees for a 0.25 raise...)
https://www.facebook.com/106655521752424/photos/a.115249750893001/123422556742387/
nm
Oh, I am very familiar with Maple Avenue... Baltutis is the Burlington Beer Works guy IIRC, right? Don't live around there anymore (haven't for years now, but I grew up there and lived there as an adult for many years) and don't know him personally, but am familiar with the name as I have many friends that still live around there... also know a State grad that has / had worked there for years in Public Works... might have to check in with him on this one. Thanksmdreid said:
theyre in cahoots with each other in their pursuit of power, its in my belief that they wish this was a system like in Chicago where the Mayor holds all the power, luckily for us in NC it doesnt work that way.
theyre also trying to push this "rejuvenate Maple Avenue" project which is a street that runs from I-40 through the ghetto to downtown Burlington, this project is estimated around $25 million taxpayer dollars and im sure is to make some of their buddies profit of the construction while City Employees Wages fall further behind(supervisors have told the manager that they have lost good employees for a 0.25 raise...)
https://www.facebook.com/106655521752424/photos/a.115249750893001/123422556742387/
yea he's the Beer Works Guy,TheStorm said:Oh, I am very familiar with Maple Avenue... Baltutis is the Burlington Beer Works guy IIRC, right? Don't live around there anymore (haven't for years now, but I grew up there and lived there as an adult for many years) and don't know him personally, but am familiar with the name as I have many friends that still live around there... also know a State grad that has / had worked there for years in Public Works... might have to check in with him on this one. Thanksmdreid said:
theyre in cahoots with each other in their pursuit of power, its in my belief that they wish this was a system like in Chicago where the Mayor holds all the power, luckily for us in NC it doesnt work that way.
theyre also trying to push this "rejuvenate Maple Avenue" project which is a street that runs from I-40 through the ghetto to downtown Burlington, this project is estimated around $25 million taxpayer dollars and im sure is to make some of their buddies profit of the construction while City Employees Wages fall further behind(supervisors have told the manager that they have lost good employees for a 0.25 raise...)
https://www.facebook.com/106655521752424/photos/a.115249750893001/123422556742387/
no problem
Wayland said:There is a heavy does of extrapolation because we just haven't had enough time.dogplasma said:Okay, thanks. My questions were not challenges so much as looking for clarifications. When you said "or lack thereof" when referring to booster efficacy i was thinking about recent reports of studies showing positive responses for Pfizer and J&J boosters. But I don't think these are fully reviewed results. And I do agree that the promise of boosters was way ahead of the actual results. But then I can forgive that given that booster shots are generally a pretty common and expected requirement with other vaccines. I don't personally believe the FDA or CDC would authorize boosters without proof, but I also don't listen to the discussion or follow nearly as closely as you and others.Wayland said:No.dogplasma said:
But you're saying there's no proof that vaccine boosters are effective or worthwhile.
I am saying there is limited data and the policy has basically already been decided regardless of ACIP's recommendations (even if they in fact align with those recommendations this time .... unlike last time).
I certainly think it is reasonable that based on specific risk profiles due to age or being immunocompromised that a booster may be reasonable. That is independent of the fact there exists lack of data. We just need to be honest and public with the fact that there are gaps.
I also think, right about now (assuming a winter wave) would be about the perfect time for those individuals to boost.
Based on the initial series, I would also expect protection against infection to wane within a few months. The initial series already protects against severe infection.
Actually, it would be an interesting exercise to boost the 'at risk' population and purposely NOT boost the vaccinated 'healthy' population, and allow the inevitable infections to move through the population so that hybrid protection of the greater population could then protect the at risk.
But again, that is a grand experiment and separate from the overarching advisory meetings or policy decisions AND we would need to do greater research into the possible costs and trade-offs (something that has been severely lacking across all policy decisions, not just vaccine).
I listen to the FDA advisory and CDC ACIP meetings, and, in general feel like we have the cart leading the horse as far as vaccine policy. I actually find the meetings have some great discussions and debate, but remain fascinated at how all that gets translated by leaders and media.
There just seems to be a bizarre disconnect, but maybe it is just me.
It is also fascinating again to hear Walensky talk today without nuance to boosters and how that specifically deviates from the ACIP recommendations to include clinical considerations and be specific to separate recommendations with language such as 'may get booster' and 'should get booster'.
It is irresponsible for her to say "if you are eligible for a booster.. get a booster" when ACIP has included clinical considerations and the specific language of 'MAY' in its recommendations. I am not saying to NOT take a booster, it certainly makes sense for some of those eligible, but if someone is eligible for a booster they should review those clinical considerations or talk with their PCP, not take the blanket advice of a political muppet.
This goes to what I was talking about yesterday. There is a disconnect between the intent of the recommendations from advisory/ACIP and what Walensky (as a proxy for the WH) is saying. It is a fascinating manipulation to remove all nuance from the recommendations.Today: CDC Director Walensky confirms that boosters may soon be mandatory to be considered “fully vaccinated.”
— Michael P Senger (@MichaelPSenger) October 22, 2021
“We have not yet changed the definition of fully vaccinated. We will continue to look at this. We may need to update our definition of fully vaccinated in the future.” pic.twitter.com/mVgfSteYxp
It was ACIPs contention yesterday that completion of the primary series was 'fully vaccinated' and had nothing to do with boosters not being available to all. The lack of nuance is just dirty.
At the same time Scandinavian countries are extending the moratorium on Moderna for those under 30.
So despite the pains of quoting this reporter... don't these quotes from members of the advisory committees seem to jive more with my take away from the meetings than Walensky's?? And this is coming from the NYT, of all places.
https://archive.md/NM50i
Quote:
All the advisers felt that they were obligated to make difficult choices, based on sparse research, in the middle of a public health emergency. But some said they felt compelled to vote for the shots because of the way the federal agencies framed the questions that they were asked to consider.
Other committee experts said that they wanted to avoid confusing the public further by dissenting, or that they voted according to their views of the evidence and were simply overruled.
"These are not evidence-based recommendations," said Dr. Sarah S. Long, a pediatric infectious disease expert at Drexel University College of Medicine in Philadelphia, and a member of the CDC's ACIP.
What was that Rochelle? Everyone eligible should get a booster?? What say you Dr. Daley of CDC advisory?
Quote:
"I don't think that we have evidence that everybody in those groups needs a booster today," said Dr. Matthew Daley, senior investigator at Kaiser Permanente Colorado and a member of the C.D.C. advisory committee.
Dr. Offit (who is on the FDA advisory). What do you have to say about Rochelle's guidance?
What about the data????Quote:
"You can see the hesitancy in all this," said Dr. Paul Offit, director of the Vaccine Education Center at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and a member of the F.D.A.'s vaccine advisory committee. "It's because in our hearts, I think people don't quite agree with this notion of a booster dose."
"The door just got bigger and bigger and bigger, it got wider and wider with each step," Dr. Offit added. "The companies got what they wanted, the administration got what they wanted."
Quote:
In interviews, the experts bemoaned the limited data on the safety and efficacy of the booster shots. The data supporting extra doses of the Moderna and Johnson & Johnson vaccines was "of very low quality," Dr. Kathleen Dooling, a C.D.C. scientist, acknowledged at the committee meeting on Thursday.
Still, some said they felt they had to vote in favor of booster shots of the Moderna and Johnson & Johnson vaccines because they had already recommended boosters of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine and did not want to deny other Americans.
Dr. Meissner care to weigh in?
Quote:
"The problem that troubled me is that we don't know if boosters are necessary," said Dr. Cody Meissner, a professor of pediatrics at Tufts University School of Medicine and a member of the F.D.A. advisory committee.
But "if you're going do it for one group, I think fairness kind of dictates you have to do it for all the groups," he added.
How about those that don't want to be on the record?
Quote:
But several panelists who did not wish to speak on the record said privately that the final recommendations for booster shots were inevitable as soon as President Biden promised them to all adults.
"We are in a very difficult position to do much of anything other than what everybody has already announced that we've done," said Dr. Long, one of the few to publicly express her unhappiness.
Some administration officials "pay lip service to science and the evidence," she said.
Experts outside these committees also said that President Biden's promise of boosters, in August, made it difficult for the agencies to weigh the data objectively in September and October.
Quote:
In approving the boosters, however reluctantly, federal agencies and their advisers may have given Americans the impression that two doses were not protective enough, some experts said.
It is amazing how closely this mirrors my take away from the ACIP. I actually wonder if Walensky even listened to these meetings.... or rather... why would she have to? Her mind was already made up months ago.
This is frightening. They admit that there is no science/data to support recommending these shots...but they are compelled to approve them because Fuhrer Biden announced them.Wayland said:
So despite the pains of quoting this reporter... don't these quotes from members of the advisory committees seem to jive more with my take away from the meetings than Walensky's?? And this is coming from the NYT, of all places.
https://archive.md/NM50iQuote:
But several panelists who did not wish to speak on the record said privately that the final recommendations for booster shots were inevitable as soon as President Biden promised them to all adults.
"We are in a very difficult position to do much of anything other than what everybody has already announced that we've done," said Dr. Long, one of the few to publicly express her unhappiness.
Some administration officials "pay lip service to science and the evidence," she said.
Experts outside these committees also said that President Biden's promise of boosters, in August, made it difficult for the agencies to weigh the data objectively in September and October.
Are we now living in a quasi dictatorship? Czar Comrade Biden just announces whatever dictates he wants, and then it becomes "law"? The FDA just does whatever kid sniffer Joe tells them to do? I thought the FDA was supposed to "follow the science"??
I've heard that Biden's "mandate" for companies of over 100 employees to require employees to take the magic injections is still not actually enforceable. He just announced this dictate...but there may actually need to be laws passed (ie, via Congress) to make such a thing a real law that is enforceable.
"Ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." - John 15:19
Dude, if I could figure out a way to give you twenty stars, I would. Incredible post, putting that all together. It's stuff like this that makes it hard for people like myself, who believe in medical science, who know people in the industry working on these vaccines, to trust anything the government is doing. I believe "the science", but only when I believe it actually is science and doesn't have a political motivation behind it. Science should dictate policy, not the other way around.
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Don't know if anyone on here knew this already, or cares, but you can now get the flu vaccine at the same time as the Covid booster. The CDC (gasp) has approved this. Just thought I would pass it along since this wasn't the case during the first dose(s). Just discovered this today. Carry on!
Whatever data the CDC is basing that on, from personal experience, I wouldn't recommend that. My wife ran fluctuating fevers for nearly 72 hours afterward.dogplasma said:
Don't know if anyone on here knew this already, or cares, but you can now get the flu vaccine at the same time as the Covid booster. The CDC (gasp) has approved this. Just thought I would pass it along since this wasn't the case during the first dose(s). Just discovered this today. Carry on!
tHaTs AnEcDoTaL!!1 tHe CdC hAs ThE sCiEnCe!!1!Oldsouljer said:Whatever data the CDC is basing that on, from personal experience, I wouldn't recommend that. My wife ran fluctuating fevers for nearly 72 hours afterward.dogplasma said:
Don't know if anyone on here knew this already, or cares, but you can now get the flu vaccine at the same time as the Covid booster. The CDC (gasp) has approved this. Just thought I would pass it along since this wasn't the case during the first dose(s). Just discovered this today. Carry on!
"Ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." - John 15:19
Oldsouljer said:Whatever data the CDC is basing that on, from personal experience, I wouldn't recommend that. My wife ran fluctuating fevers for nearly 72 hours afterward.dogplasma said:
Don't know if anyone on here knew this already, or cares, but you can now get the flu vaccine at the same time as the Covid booster. The CDC (gasp) has approved this. Just thought I would pass it along since this wasn't the case during the first dose(s). Just discovered this today. Carry on!
I'll preface by saying i haven't gotten my booster, and I'm not sure i will. I did get the flu shot. I'm sure there are others, but I'm the only doctor i know that is hesitant to boost. Most i know already have and were eager.
That said, many of the ones that got the booster got the flu shot simultaneously, and i haven't heard of anybody with a reaction. It has surprised me, because 50% of us had 12-24 reactions to the initial covid vax, and i figured with revved up immunity, we'd all suffer with the booster. Shows what i know.
Mormad said:Oldsouljer said:Whatever data the CDC is basing that on, from personal experience, I wouldn't recommend that. My wife ran fluctuating fevers for nearly 72 hours afterward.dogplasma said:
Don't know if anyone on here knew this already, or cares, but you can now get the flu vaccine at the same time as the Covid booster. The CDC (gasp) has approved this. Just thought I would pass it along since this wasn't the case during the first dose(s). Just discovered this today. Carry on!
I'll preface by saying i haven't gotten my booster, and I'm not sure i will. I did get the flu shot. I'm sure there are others, but I'm the only doctor i know that is hesitant to boost. Most i know already have and were eager.
That said, many of the ones that got the booster got the flu shot simultaneously, and i haven't heard of anybody with a reaction. It has surprised me, because 50% of us had 12-24 reactions to the initial covid vax, and i figured with revved up immunity, we'd all suffer with the booster. Shows what i know.
Do you have a specific concern about the booster Mormad or is it more "diminishing returns" upside relative to the initial vax that skews the risk/reward unfavorably for you?
I left out that she has a secondary condition resulting in a slightly suppressed immune system, so she may not be a typical patient. That said, one area of Immunology that I'm not conversant with, and I'd like to know more, is immune duration. Case in point, I had a titer signature for a smallpox vaccination for a number of years, why then are corona virus immune responses seemingly not long term, or so some would report.Mormad said:Oldsouljer said:Whatever data the CDC is basing that on, from personal experience, I wouldn't recommend that. My wife ran fluctuating fevers for nearly 72 hours afterward.dogplasma said:
Don't know if anyone on here knew this already, or cares, but you can now get the flu vaccine at the same time as the Covid booster. The CDC (gasp) has approved this. Just thought I would pass it along since this wasn't the case during the first dose(s). Just discovered this today. Carry on!
I'll preface by saying i haven't gotten my booster, and I'm not sure i will. I did get the flu shot. I'm sure there are others, but I'm the only doctor i know that is hesitant to boost. Most i know already have and were eager.
That said, many of the ones that got the booster got the flu shot simultaneously, and i haven't heard of anybody with a reaction. It has surprised me, because 50% of us had 12-24 reactions to the initial covid vax, and i figured with revved up immunity, we'd all suffer with the booster. Shows what i know.
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I think you might find this article to be helpful. I have a similar view as Mormad. I got the vaccine, but am not planning to get the booster any time soon. Likely will get it next year, unless I see some more compelling information than what has been reported. I do not take drugs that have marginal benefit and I put the booster in that category, at least as it relates to my personal situation.Oldsouljer said:I left out that she has a secondary condition resulting in a slightly suppressed immune system, so she may not be a typical patient. That said, one area of Immunology that I'm not conversant with, and I'd like to know more, is immune duration. Case in point, I had a titer signature for a smallpox vaccination for a number of years, why then are corona virus immune responses seemingly not long term, or so some would report.Mormad said:Oldsouljer said:Whatever data the CDC is basing that on, from personal experience, I wouldn't recommend that. My wife ran fluctuating fevers for nearly 72 hours afterward.dogplasma said:
Don't know if anyone on here knew this already, or cares, but you can now get the flu vaccine at the same time as the Covid booster. The CDC (gasp) has approved this. Just thought I would pass it along since this wasn't the case during the first dose(s). Just discovered this today. Carry on!
I'll preface by saying i haven't gotten my booster, and I'm not sure i will. I did get the flu shot. I'm sure there are others, but I'm the only doctor i know that is hesitant to boost. Most i know already have and were eager.
That said, many of the ones that got the booster got the flu shot simultaneously, and i haven't heard of anybody with a reaction. It has surprised me, because 50% of us had 12-24 reactions to the initial covid vax, and i figured with revved up immunity, we'd all suffer with the booster. Shows what i know.
Don't Panic Over Waning Antibodies
If you are older or immuno-compromised, getting a booster probably makes sense. If you are healthy and not in an at risk group, I am not sure it is necessary, based on my understanding of immunity and T-Cells. My father is in his late 80's, has health issues and will get a booster next week. My daughter (immuno-compromised) is discussing with her doctor and will take their advice.
I've never had any issue with a flu shot. J&J knocked me down for about 12 hours when I had that. Obviously I've never had flu plus Covid (Moderna) but I'll let you know how it goes. I'd rather get both at once than have to go twice.Oldsouljer said:Whatever data the CDC is basing that on, from personal experience, I wouldn't recommend that. My wife ran fluctuating fevers for nearly 72 hours afterward.dogplasma said:
Don't know if anyone on here knew this already, or cares, but you can now get the flu vaccine at the same time as the Covid booster. The CDC (gasp) has approved this. Just thought I would pass it along since this wasn't the case during the first dose(s). Just discovered this today. Carry on!
I have zero concern that it's not safe. Whether the booster provides a lot of benefit or only a little, I'm of the opinion that some improvement is better than none, especially since I see my aging parents regularly. My understanding is that boosters are more important for those like myself that got the J&J shot. It's also been a little over six months since my original dose.
NEW: Pfizer vaccine recommended for approval in kids by FDA Advisory Committee.
— Andy Slavitt 🇺🇸💉 (@ASlavitt) October 26, 2021
Great news
Civilized said:Mormad said:Oldsouljer said:Whatever data the CDC is basing that on, from personal experience, I wouldn't recommend that. My wife ran fluctuating fevers for nearly 72 hours afterward.dogplasma said:
Don't know if anyone on here knew this already, or cares, but you can now get the flu vaccine at the same time as the Covid booster. The CDC (gasp) has approved this. Just thought I would pass it along since this wasn't the case during the first dose(s). Just discovered this today. Carry on!
I'll preface by saying i haven't gotten my booster, and I'm not sure i will. I did get the flu shot. I'm sure there are others, but I'm the only doctor i know that is hesitant to boost. Most i know already have and were eager.
That said, many of the ones that got the booster got the flu shot simultaneously, and i haven't heard of anybody with a reaction. It has surprised me, because 50% of us had 12-24 reactions to the initial covid vax, and i figured with revved up immunity, we'd all suffer with the booster. Shows what i know.
Do you have a specific concern about the booster Mormad or is it more "diminishing returns" upside relative to the initial tax that skews the risk/reward unfavorably for you?
I am hesitant because I'm somewhat nervous about a complication from the booster because of immunity gained from previous injections, and I'm not sure the evidence is strong enough for me despite my frequent occupational exposure. I shouldn't be nervous, because all of my closest friends and colleagues who got the booster did so without anything more than arm soreness. Again, less reaction than the initial injection. But 10d out of work for me would suck. I'm not salaried. And i don't want to quarantine from my family. So I'm weighing my options and watching closely what is happening around me. Unfortunately, i have seen a lot of sht with this dz. I'm biased by mostly seeing or hearing about the sickest of the sick. So many do fine. So many don't. In the recent surge of admissions, docs here used what they had learned to better manage the sick. Many were "saved" by use of management options in the protocol, but will never be the same from a health standpoint, and a number of the admissions that you hear about now are actually re-admits of these folks who have come back to die. It's an ugly ugly dz that is unpredictable in its action and I'm for any treatment that can minimize its impact on our lives, but for some reason i find myself strangely hesitant to boost despite the relative eagerness and complete acceptance of my peers who have witnessed the dz first hand.
Again, the take away from the meeting (which I listened to from 8:30am until almost 5 today) was more...statefan91 said:NEW: Pfizer vaccine recommended for approval in kids by FDA Advisory Committee.
— Andy Slavitt 🇺🇸💉 (@ASlavitt) October 26, 2021
Great news
"We have been given a binary choice and are not allowed any nuance.
And since we feel there are at least some cases where a vaccine may be appropriate even if the greater risk/benefit may not be there.... and we don't have great data.
And we have people in a panic that won't move forward until they can get their kids vaccinated....
... but it probably shouldn't be mandated at this point without further study and safety data.
And if we vote no, then even those cases where it might be appropriate (and we really do wish we could add nuance and do something other but vote Yes/No to the question before us).
Then... Yes"
There were still a lot of questions left unanswered.
For example. Dr Meissner voted 'Yes', despite this statement.
Dr. Cody Meissner speaking at the FDA vote for EUA status - very bravely tells it like it is. We don’t know how safe it is, the risk is so low already for healthy children, if we approve it … mandates will follow which is bad. Just know - Dr Meissner is the exception :/ pic.twitter.com/YZ6vBl8Yfb
— Justin Hart (@justin_hart) October 26, 2021
statefan91 said:NEW: Pfizer vaccine recommended for approval in kids by FDA Advisory Committee.
— Andy Slavitt 🇺🇸💉 (@ASlavitt) October 26, 2021
Great news
Yay! More mandates for people completely unaffected. GREAT NEWS!!!!!
My wife is on her 29th year teaching. Never had a mandate for flu shots for the children, or teachers. Bet they change that for the kids for Covid. Already in the works for the teachers.
The number of parents of young children who have never gotten their kids the flu shot, but will rush to get them the covid shot is going to be staggering. That’s despite the fact that the seasonal flu is far more deadly to young children than covid is. pic.twitter.com/vR6g5xfnBR
— Clay Travis (@ClayTravis) October 26, 2021
Well I haven't checked in on this in a while but thought I'd report Covid has finally come into the home. It hit the kindergartners last week and my twins are positive. We are stuck at home. Daughter, wife and I negative side far. Bright note…stuffy nose but not bothering them too bad. Played and danced and did school work today. Acting fairly normal. Still nutty kids. No fever. Only medicine they've had is something at night time to help.
ncsualum05 said:
Well I haven't checked in on this in a while but thought I'd report Covid has finally come into the home. It hit the kindergartners last week and my twins are positive. We are stuck at home. Daughter, wife and I negative side far. Bright note…stuffy nose but not bothering them too bad. Played and danced and did school work today. Acting fairly normal. Still nutty kids. No fever. Only medicine they've had is something at night time to help.
Oh no!
Sorry to hear it man. Glad the wee ones are no worse for the wear, so far!
Mormad said:Civilized said:Mormad said:Oldsouljer said:Whatever data the CDC is basing that on, from personal experience, I wouldn't recommend that. My wife ran fluctuating fevers for nearly 72 hours afterward.dogplasma said:
Don't know if anyone on here knew this already, or cares, but you can now get the flu vaccine at the same time as the Covid booster. The CDC (gasp) has approved this. Just thought I would pass it along since this wasn't the case during the first dose(s). Just discovered this today. Carry on!
I'll preface by saying i haven't gotten my booster, and I'm not sure i will. I did get the flu shot. I'm sure there are others, but I'm the only doctor i know that is hesitant to boost. Most i know already have and were eager.
That said, many of the ones that got the booster got the flu shot simultaneously, and i haven't heard of anybody with a reaction. It has surprised me, because 50% of us had 12-24 reactions to the initial covid vax, and i figured with revved up immunity, we'd all suffer with the booster. Shows what i know.
Do you have a specific concern about the booster Mormad or is it more "diminishing returns" upside relative to the initial tax that skews the risk/reward unfavorably for you?
I am hesitant because I'm somewhat nervous about a complication from the booster because of immunity gained from previous injections, and I'm not sure the evidence is strong enough for me despite my frequent occupational exposure. I shouldn't be nervous, because all of my closest friends and colleagues who got the booster did so without anything more than arm soreness. Again, less reaction than the initial injection. But 10d out of work for me would suck. I'm not salaried. And i don't want to quarantine from my family. So I'm weighing my options and watching closely what is happening around me. Unfortunately, i have seen a lot of sht with this dz. I'm biased by mostly seeing or hearing about the sickest of the sick. So many do fine. So many don't. In the recent surge of admissions, docs here used what they had learned to better manage the sick. Many were "saved" by use of management options in the protocol, but will never be the same from a health standpoint, and a number of the admissions that you hear about now are actually re-admits of these folks who have come back to die. It's an ugly ugly dz that is unpredictable in its action and I'm for any treatment that can minimize its impact on our lives, but for some reason i find myself strangely hesitant to boost despite the relative eagerness and complete acceptance of my peers who have witnessed the dz first hand.
Thanks much Mormad!
Very helpful for those of us contemplating some of these same decisions, and are talking with family members who are debating the same.
Anecdotally, my mom was very excited to get her booster Monday. Her arm was exceptionally sore, so much so that she had trouble sleeping Monday night, but other than that no ill effects. She's at least nominally higher risk, in her 70s with a couple of health issues. For her it was a no-brainer; for so many others it's less clear how best to proceed.
Thanks again as always for your input.
Getting my booster today, apparently my tracking device quit working.
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Wayland said:Again, the take away from the meeting (which I listened to from 8:30am until almost 5 today) was more...statefan91 said:NEW: Pfizer vaccine recommended for approval in kids by FDA Advisory Committee.
— Andy Slavitt 🇺🇸💉 (@ASlavitt) October 26, 2021
Great news
"We have been given a binary choice and are not allowed any nuance.
And since we feel there are at least some cases where a vaccine may be appropriate even if the greater risk/benefit may not be there.... and we don't have great data.
And we have people in a panic that won't move forward until they can get their kids vaccinated....
... but it probably shouldn't be mandated at this point without further study and safety data.
And if we vote no, then even those cases where it might be appropriate (and we really do wish we could add nuance and do something other but vote Yes/No to the question before us).
Then... Yes"
There were still a lot of questions left unanswered.
For example. Dr Meissner voted 'Yes', despite this statement.Dr. Cody Meissner speaking at the FDA vote for EUA status - very bravely tells it like it is. We don’t know how safe it is, the risk is so low already for healthy children, if we approve it … mandates will follow which is bad. Just know - Dr Meissner is the exception :/ pic.twitter.com/YZ6vBl8Yfb
— Justin Hart (@justin_hart) October 26, 2021
Good for Dr. Meissner for speaking his concerns. I get his yes vote i think. Many times when we have practice meetings I'll disagree with the direction of the group, but will vote yes to support the group who feels the decision is best for the group. Maybe he was doing the same? Idk. I do worry that mandates will follow, and i just disagree that mandates are the appropriate course of action. Education, yes. Availability, yes.
Mandates, no. The problem with my thinking is that the education of and the belief systems of the populace is all over the place, and therefore i don't think we're doing a good job helping even reasonable people make educated decisions for themselves and their loved ones.
Were the chances that the FDA WOULD NOT recommend Pfizer for ages 5-11 higher than 0.00%? Becuase it sure seems like a roundabout/deliberate rubber stamp.
Not making an argument about the vax because I have no idea, but just regarding the "process."
Not making an argument about the vax because I have no idea, but just regarding the "process."
Fair argument, for sure
FWIW. Here is a statement by the one member of the FDA Advisory who voted 'Abstain' in the vote.
Statement on abstention from FDA adviser Michael Kurilla.
— Emily Kopp (@emilyakopp) October 26, 2021
It really shows all of the complexity underneath the 17-0-1 vote. Don’t think many VRBPAC members would disagree with these points. pic.twitter.com/5sLDeS7fKB
Way -- thanks for posting these items....been slammed at work and just catching up on these.Wayland said:
FWIW. Here is a statement by the one member of the FDA Advisory who voted 'Abstain' in the vote.Statement on abstention from FDA adviser Michael Kurilla.
— Emily Kopp (@emilyakopp) October 26, 2021
It really shows all of the complexity underneath the 17-0-1 vote. Don’t think many VRBPAC members would disagree with these points. pic.twitter.com/5sLDeS7fKB
Two questions, and i apologize if you addressed above (I have not read every post due to time)
1) Given Meissner and Kurilla's concerns, why did they not vote "No"? Would a single "no" vote have killed the approval?
2) Since we hear so much about "science", when a politician (or media source) first starts to ask for a mandate on children....will this doctors concerns be played back that his medical view is that only a limited quantity of kids actually need it? (was there any tally of how many of the voters thought similarly in giving blessing)?
I'd have to go back and listen to the explanation of votes again since it is not fresh in my mind.Packchem91 said:Way -- thanks for posting these items....been slammed at work and just catching up on these.Wayland said:
FWIW. Here is a statement by the one member of the FDA Advisory who voted 'Abstain' in the vote.Statement on abstention from FDA adviser Michael Kurilla.
— Emily Kopp (@emilyakopp) October 26, 2021
It really shows all of the complexity underneath the 17-0-1 vote. Don’t think many VRBPAC members would disagree with these points. pic.twitter.com/5sLDeS7fKB
Two questions, and i apologize if you addressed above (I have not read every post due to time)
1) Given Meissner and Kurilla's concerns, why did they not vote "No"? Would a single "no" vote have killed the approval?
2) Since we hear so much about "science", when a politician (or media source) first starts to ask for a mandate on children....will this doctors concerns be played back that his medical view is that only a limited quantity of kids actually need it? (was there any tally of how many of the voters thought similarly in giving blessing)?
Of all the panels that I have listened to, this was certainly the one that was the most vocal (almost universally) about the concerns about the fine line in risk/benefit. Maybe those that were a firm 'Yes' without conditions were just quiet on this one (there were one or two who were certainly PRO including, I think, the uniformed member who I think is on ACIP as well). It certainly wasn't just Meissner or Kurilla who expressed concerns, but again without a roster in front of me while discussions were going on I don't have a good tally.
I don't think a single 'No' vote would have changed anything other than optics. Most of these have run on 'majority'.
I think the 'Yes' votes come down to, they think there are 'at least' some cases where vaccinations in this age range would be beneficial. And I don't disagree, but I again the headlines I saw last night and how the vote was portrayed come off a lot different than the discussions.
It is becoming uncomfortable at how little data is required at this point to move forward.
The political pressure is palpable. I wish I could hear what people like Dr Marks really think, as Director - Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research (CBER), I feel like he was biting his lip at times over the frustration that they could only vote yes or no on the provided question, no changes.
update, I feel unwellhokiewolf said:
Getting my booster today, apparently my tracking device quit working.
Originator of the Tony Adams Scale
Hope you feel better
Just a guy on the sunshine squad.
The Gatekeeper.
Homer Dumbarse.
StateFan2001's favorite poster.
The Gatekeeper.
Homer Dumbarse.
StateFan2001's favorite poster.
hokiewolf said:update, I feel unwellhokiewolf said:
Getting my booster today, apparently my tracking device quit working.
No bueno man. How does it compare to the first go-round?
Feel better soon!
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