Packchem91 said:

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Daviewolf83 said:

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Here's the latest update out of Virginia on cases, hospitalizations, and deaths. This update is for the last 30 days.

96.85% of cases were unvaccinated
96.06% of covid hospitalizations were unvaccinated
96.88% of covid deaths were unvaccinated

Keep believing vaccines do not work, but they do. The following tweet sums up my thoughts on the argument regarding vaccinations.

get vaxxed or don't but keep in mind the only people you're "owning" are those you come in contact with on a daily basis, not strangers on the internet who do not know or care that you're alive

— cc (@cc_fla) August 6, 2021

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We keep hearing this debate on "follow the science". Maybe now it needs to be amended to say "follow the math".

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packgrad said:

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Packchem91 said:

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Daviewolf83 said:

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Here's the latest update out of Virginia on cases, hospitalizations, and deaths. This update is for the last 30 days.

96.85% of cases were unvaccinated
96.06% of covid hospitalizations were unvaccinated
96.88% of covid deaths were unvaccinated

Keep believing vaccines do not work, but they do. The following tweet sums up my thoughts on the argument regarding vaccinations.

get vaxxed or don't but keep in mind the only people you're "owning" are those you come in contact with on a daily basis, not strangers on the internet who do not know or care that you're alive

— cc (@cc_fla) August 6, 2021

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We keep hearing this debate on "follow the science". Maybe now it needs to be amended to say "follow the math".

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Sure. Follow it for schools too.

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Packchem91 said:

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packgrad said:

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Packchem91 said:

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Daviewolf83 said:

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Here's the latest update out of Virginia on cases, hospitalizations, and deaths. This update is for the last 30 days.

96.85% of cases were unvaccinated
96.06% of covid hospitalizations were unvaccinated
96.88% of covid deaths were unvaccinated

Keep believing vaccines do not work, but they do. The following tweet sums up my thoughts on the argument regarding vaccinations.

get vaxxed or don't but keep in mind the only people you're "owning" are those you come in contact with on a daily basis, not strangers on the internet who do not know or care that you're alive

— cc (@cc_fla) August 6, 2021

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We keep hearing this debate on "follow the science". Maybe now it needs to be amended to say "follow the math".

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Sure. Follow it for schools too.

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Huh?

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packgrad said:

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Packchem91 said:

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packgrad said:

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Packchem91 said:

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Daviewolf83 said:

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Here's the latest update out of Virginia on cases, hospitalizations, and deaths. This update is for the last 30 days.

96.85% of cases were unvaccinated
96.06% of covid hospitalizations were unvaccinated
96.88% of covid deaths were unvaccinated

Keep believing vaccines do not work, but they do. The following tweet sums up my thoughts on the argument regarding vaccinations.

get vaxxed or don't but keep in mind the only people you're "owning" are those you come in contact with on a daily basis, not strangers on the internet who do not know or care that you're alive

— cc (@cc_fla) August 6, 2021

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We keep hearing this debate on "follow the science". Maybe now it needs to be amended to say "follow the math".

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Sure. Follow it for schools too.

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Huh?

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Follow the math for schools. Masks, opening, etc.

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Cholesterol drug cuts coronavirus infection by 70%, researchers findhttps://t.co/1OO0wzkURA

— Fox News (@FoxNews) August 6, 2021

Quote:

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The drug was suggested to work by inhibiting the harmful overproduction of cytokines tied to coronavirus infection, and also treat airway inflammation. Additional properties could prevent blood clotting seen in late-stage disease in many COVID-19 patients, study authors noted.

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Packchem91 said:

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Some of that absolutely may be hype, scare tactics, sensationalistic news, etc....but I think these school boards probably (rightly or wrongly) feel an extra layer of responsibility about "all the kids and staff" than you or I may for our individual kids.

So another layer of uncertainty....mixed messaging on the impact on young kids, but certainly an unvaccinated group. No school board wants to be responsible for some major news event...so, wham.

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Daviewolf83 said:

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Here's the latest update out of Virginia on cases, hospitalizations, and deaths. This update is for the last 30 days.

96.85% of cases were unvaccinated
96.06% of covid hospitalizations were unvaccinated
96.88% of covid deaths were unvaccinated

Keep believing vaccines do not work, but they do. The following tweet sums up my thoughts on the argument regarding vaccinations.

get vaxxed or don't but keep in mind the only people you're "owning" are those you come in contact with on a daily basis, not strangers on the internet who do not know or care that you're alive

— cc (@cc_fla) August 6, 2021

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bgr3 said:

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Packchem91 said:

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Some of that absolutely may be hype, scare tactics, sensationalistic news, etc....but I think these school boards probably (rightly or wrongly) feel an extra layer of responsibility about "all the kids and staff" than you or I may for our individual kids.

So another layer of uncertainty....mixed messaging on the impact on young kids, but certainly an unvaccinated group. No school board wants to be responsible for some major news event...so, wham.

---

Yup. Spineless, liability lawyer "leadership", cowering to the loudest voices of the sensationalist mob. Who cares if it actually helps kids safety and development as long as it keeps us from having a hit piece written?

If you thought we were going to go into the school year without another round of extortion from teachers' unions I feel sorry for you.

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Civilized said:

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The point is obviously that unvaxxed people who choose to remain unvaxxed out of willful embracing of vaccine misinformation or ignorance about vaccine safety/efficacy or just to prove a point are cutting off their nose to spite their face.

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bgr3 said:

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Packchem91 said:

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bgr3 said:

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Packchem91 said:

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Some of that absolutely may be hype, scare tactics, sensationalistic news, etc....but I think these school boards probably (rightly or wrongly) feel an extra layer of responsibility about "all the kids and staff" than you or I may for our individual kids.

So another layer of uncertainty....mixed messaging on the impact on young kids, but certainly an unvaccinated group. No school board wants to be responsible for some major news event...so, wham.

---

Yup. Spineless, liability lawyer "leadership", cowering to the loudest voices of the sensationalist mob. Who cares if it actually helps kids safety and development as long as it keeps us from having a hit piece written?

If you thought we were going to go into the school year without another round of extortion from teachers' unions I feel sorry for you.

---

Do you attribute teacher's unions pressure is the reason for ARK Governor Hutchison's change in view on this? Or that he was looking at real data from his medical advisors in the state where they've seen a huge uptick?

I assume your scenario plays a role. But I also think, again, its a lot easier to go risk-averse on a decision on behalf of thousands of kids than it is for yourself.

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It is easy to go risk-averse if you just ignore every risk in the world other than those posed by COVID. If you ignore the risk of learning loss it's easy to go risk averse. If you ignore the risks of increasing isolation/depression/suicide among the youth it's easy to go risk averse. If you ignore the risks of increasing the sedentary lifestyles of youth because their sports and gyms are closed its easy to go risk averse. If you ignore the higher risk children have of dying in a car wreck on the way to school then of getting COVID and dying at school its easy to go risk averse.

But hey, at least when teenagers kill themselves at home the school administrators aren't going to get blamed for it. You are right about the big thing though, that kind of shortsighted policy making is a lot easier. And it is NOT about the children.

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packgrad said:

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Hilarious that you think your family's experience with the virus and vaccine are due to misinformation because they don't match your opinion.

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Packchem91 said:

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bgr3 said:

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Packchem91 said:

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bgr3 said:

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Packchem91 said:

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Some of that absolutely may be hype, scare tactics, sensationalistic news, etc....but I think these school boards probably (rightly or wrongly) feel an extra layer of responsibility about "all the kids and staff" than you or I may for our individual kids.

So another layer of uncertainty....mixed messaging on the impact on young kids, but certainly an unvaccinated group. No school board wants to be responsible for some major news event...so, wham.

---

Yup. Spineless, liability lawyer "leadership", cowering to the loudest voices of the sensationalist mob. Who cares if it actually helps kids safety and development as long as it keeps us from having a hit piece written?

If you thought we were going to go into the school year without another round of extortion from teachers' unions I feel sorry for you.

---

Do you attribute teacher's unions pressure is the reason for ARK Governor Hutchison's change in view on this? Or that he was looking at real data from his medical advisors in the state where they've seen a huge uptick?

I assume your scenario plays a role. But I also think, again, its a lot easier to go risk-averse on a decision on behalf of thousands of kids than it is for yourself.

---

It is easy to go risk-averse if you just ignore every risk in the world other than those posed by COVID. If you ignore the risk of learning loss it's easy to go risk averse. If you ignore the risks of increasing isolation/depression/suicide among the youth it's easy to go risk averse. If you ignore the risks of increasing the sedentary lifestyles of youth because their sports and gyms are closed its easy to go risk averse. If you ignore the higher risk children have of dying in a car wreck on the way to school then of getting COVID and dying at school its easy to go risk averse.

But hey, at least when teenagers kill themselves at home the school administrators aren't going to get blamed for it. You are right about the big thing though, that kind of shortsighted policy making is a lot easier. And it is NOT about the children.

---

So your thoughts on why ARK is trying to undo its decision on the mask mandate to allow schools to mask?

All those other factors you reference are VERY real, for sure. Sports and gyms are open now, though, aren't they? I've seen kids out playing on fields all summer....though I guess your point is if they get reclosed.
I'd like to think most of the decision makers are applying reasonable logic to include considerations for the things you reference. But human behavior is ALWAYS going to favor the current flavor-of-the-day, and have a bigger influence on decision-making than the long-term impacts. Its almost always that way

i mean....there are medical boards saying "for unvaccinated kids the best way to avoid Covid is to wear a mask and social distance since they can't be vaccinated", but then parents freaking out because a school board -- applying that medical guidance -- says schools have to wear a mask.

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Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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Hilarious that you think your family's experience with the virus and vaccine are due to misinformation because they don't match your opinion.

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Yeah medical misinformation is super hilarious.

Their experience is anecdotal and hyperbolic, small sample size, and not supported by any science or math other than junk social media "science." That's not just "my opinion," it's the opinion of anyone assessing their inputs and outputs in a reasonably dispassionate way knowing the benefits and risks of vaccination and not vaccinating.

Homeopathy is not more effective than vaccination.

The virus does not appear to confer more or more durable immunity than vaccination.

COVID vaccination does not produce more severe side effects than the disease itself.

Vaccination has not routinely caused side effects that make people miss work for a week or more.

Those reasons are factually untrue based on large sample sizes. There's no reason to sugar-coat that.

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packgrad said:

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Packchem91 said:

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bgr3 said:

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Packchem91 said:

---

bgr3 said:

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Packchem91 said:

---

Some of that absolutely may be hype, scare tactics, sensationalistic news, etc....but I think these school boards probably (rightly or wrongly) feel an extra layer of responsibility about "all the kids and staff" than you or I may for our individual kids.

So another layer of uncertainty....mixed messaging on the impact on young kids, but certainly an unvaccinated group. No school board wants to be responsible for some major news event...so, wham.

---

Yup. Spineless, liability lawyer "leadership", cowering to the loudest voices of the sensationalist mob. Who cares if it actually helps kids safety and development as long as it keeps us from having a hit piece written?

If you thought we were going to go into the school year without another round of extortion from teachers' unions I feel sorry for you.

---

Do you attribute teacher's unions pressure is the reason for ARK Governor Hutchison's change in view on this? Or that he was looking at real data from his medical advisors in the state where they've seen a huge uptick?

I assume your scenario plays a role. But I also think, again, its a lot easier to go risk-averse on a decision on behalf of thousands of kids than it is for yourself.

---

It is easy to go risk-averse if you just ignore every risk in the world other than those posed by COVID. If you ignore the risk of learning loss it's easy to go risk averse. If you ignore the risks of increasing isolation/depression/suicide among the youth it's easy to go risk averse. If you ignore the risks of increasing the sedentary lifestyles of youth because their sports and gyms are closed its easy to go risk averse. If you ignore the higher risk children have of dying in a car wreck on the way to school then of getting COVID and dying at school its easy to go risk averse.

But hey, at least when teenagers kill themselves at home the school administrators aren't going to get blamed for it. You are right about the big thing though, that kind of shortsighted policy making is a lot easier. And it is NOT about the children.

---

So your thoughts on why ARK is trying to undo its decision on the mask mandate to allow schools to mask?

All those other factors you reference are VERY real, for sure. Sports and gyms are open now, though, aren't they? I've seen kids out playing on fields all summer....though I guess your point is if they get reclosed.
I'd like to think most of the decision makers are applying reasonable logic to include considerations for the things you reference. But human behavior is ALWAYS going to favor the current flavor-of-the-day, and have a bigger influence on decision-making than the long-term impacts. Its almost always that way

i mean....there are medical boards saying "for unvaccinated kids the best way to avoid Covid is to wear a mask and social distance since they can't be vaccinated", but then parents freaking out because a school board -- applying that medical guidance -- says schools have to wear a mask.

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"Medical boards" like the AAP? More like political organizations.

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bgr3 said:

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Civilized said:

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The point is obviously that unvaxxed people who choose to remain unvaxxed out of willful embracing of vaccine misinformation or ignorance about vaccine safety/efficacy or just to prove a point are cutting off their nose to spite their face.

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Fair enough, but at the end of the day, it is their nose to cut off.

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Civilized said:

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caryking said:

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Packchem91 said:

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Civilized said:

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caryking said:

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Have you seen the data out of Israel? Two things as I understand it:

• 90% + are vaccinated
• Same % are getting COVID
• Now they are saying that vaccines have about a 6 month life

So, the vaccines are more like prophylactic than a real vaccine... ok, I know that last statement is out there; however, what's the real difference at this point...

---

This is the exact same circumstance that we discussed two weeks ago in the UK.

If 50% of new cases are in the vaxxed, and 50% in the unvaxxed, but 90% are vaccinated it means vaccines are working extremely well.

Think of it this way, if you take a sample of 100 adults in Israel, 10 would be unvaxxed and 90 would be vaxxed. Of the 10 unvaxxed, 3 may pop positive. Of the 90 vaxxed, 3 would pop positive. 10 unvaxxed Israelis are generating the same number of positives as 90 vaxxed Israelis. That's great real-world effectiveness at preventing infection.

And that doesn't even speak to the effectiveness of vaccines at preventing serious or fatal COVID.

Also nobody is saying the vaccines have a 6 month "life." It's being speculated that vaccine protection against infection starts to wane after 6 months, however protection against serious or fatal COVID seems to continue to be robust.

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You keep spelling out that math, and some people keep ignoring it.

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I must be bad at math, let me try this...

100 adults in Israel, 90 are vaxxed, 10 are unvaxxed. Of the 100 adults in Israel, 10 go into the hospital. Of the ten, 9 are vaxxed, 1 is not. So, if you multiply that out, the number doesn't change. The vaxxed are going in at a higher rate.

Please tell me where my math is wrong... and according to the real world Israeli doctor, he contends that the shelf life of the vaccine is 6 months.

I see what may have caused the issue. I said "same percent getting COVID". I should have said the same percent is going into the hospital with COVID.

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Respectfully Cary, there's not a location in the world that is reporting similar rates of hospitalization for vaxxed and unvaxxed individuals. All available data indicates vaccination confers very serious protection against hospitalization and death no matter how you slice it.

It's being widely reported that unvaxxed and vaxxed INFECTIONS are occurring in similar ABSOLUTE numbers in most locations. That's a critical distinction that people either can't or won't process.

In other words, in the UK and Israel and many other countries, you are seeing roughly the same QUANTITY of vaxxed and unvaxxed people popping positive, not the same PROPORTION of vaxxed/unvaxxed positives.

In other words, for a given sample group of people you will have roughly the same number of vaxxed and unvaxxed positives.

What's key though is that in most first world countries we've got many more vaccinated people than unvaccinated people. And in most every case for these numbers are being reported, unvaxxed includes only people that have not had any shots and vaccinated includes people that have had one or two shots.

The numbers look even better for vaccination efficacy if you focus on hospitalizations and deaths for people that have been vaccinated, rather than just cases. Cases is much less meaningful barometer than hospitalizations and deaths because so many vaxxed positives are asymptomatic or only very mildly symptomatic.

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Civilized said:

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bgr3 said:

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Civilized said:

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The point is obviously that unvaxxed people who choose to remain unvaxxed out of willful embracing of vaccine misinformation or ignorance about vaccine safety/efficacy or just to prove a point are cutting off their nose to spite their face.

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Fair enough, but at the end of the day, it is their nose to cut off.

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Yep.

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GuerrillaPack said:

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Anybody remember this?...the original staunch opponents of the covid vaccines were the Democrats...with Biden, Harris, Andrew Cuomo and others publicly saying (in video below) they would not take the vaccines because they "don't trust Trump". Cuomo says on air that he "doesn't trust the FDA" under Trump.



That said, I am 100% opposed to the vaccines, and absolutely oppose Republicans who are now pushing people to take these vaccines, like Scalise in this video.

The point I'm making is that opposition to the mystery injections is far larger than just "redneck white conservative Republicans".

The demographic group with the lowest vaccination rates, by far, is black Americans. And hispanic Americans also have lower vaccination rates than whites. It seems many Democrats probably still aren't taking these vaccines because of comments like this from top Democrat politicians in 2020, and because of "muh bad Orange Man".

In reality, we probably have just as many Democrats who are not vaccinated as Republicans. At the very least, there is not much difference in the rates between Ds and Rs.

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packgrad said:

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Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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Hilarious that you think your family's experience with the virus and vaccine are due to misinformation because they don't match your opinion.

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Yeah medical misinformation is super hilarious.

Their experience is anecdotal and hyperbolic, small sample size, and not supported by any science or math other than junk social media "science." That's not just "my opinion," it's the opinion of anyone assessing their inputs and outputs in a reasonably dispassionate way knowing the benefits and risks of vaccination and not vaccinating.

Homeopathy is not more effective than vaccination.

The virus does not appear to confer more or more durable immunity than vaccination.

COVID vaccination does not produce more severe side effects than the disease itself.

Vaccination has not routinely caused side effects that make people miss work for a week or more.

Those reasons are factually untrue based on large sample sizes. There's no reason to sugar-coat that.

---

Masks are all upside. Covid misinformation from the hypocrite.

"The side effects from the vaccine are worse than COVID"

My BIL had Covid and the vaccine. For him, the vaccine side effects were worse than the virus.

"The side effects from the vaccine have knocked my friends at work out of work for a week or more." (From a 49-year vet in aerospace) How do you know that's untrue?

"Lots of my friends have had COVID and they were all fine" (from the same late-60's aerospace vet not my mid-20's cousin). How do you know that's not true? The vast, vast, vast majority that had Covid were fine.

"I don't trust the vaccine safety since it was emergency-approved and they cut corners with the testing"
Understandable take held by many.

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caryking said:

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56% of Denver, Co police officers are unvaxxed. The city is requiring them to fax in order to keep their jobs. Hows that going to play out?

It's going to be a defunding of the police through another measure...

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caryking said:

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Civilized said:

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caryking said:

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Packchem91 said:

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Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

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Have you seen the data out of Israel? Two things as I understand it:

• 90% + are vaccinated
• Same % are getting COVID
• Now they are saying that vaccines have about a 6 month life

So, the vaccines are more like prophylactic than a real vaccine... ok, I know that last statement is out there; however, what's the real difference at this point...

---

This is the exact same circumstance that we discussed two weeks ago in the UK.

If 50% of new cases are in the vaxxed, and 50% in the unvaxxed, but 90% are vaccinated it means vaccines are working extremely well.

Think of it this way, if you take a sample of 100 adults in Israel, 10 would be unvaxxed and 90 would be vaxxed. Of the 10 unvaxxed, 3 may pop positive. Of the 90 vaxxed, 3 would pop positive. 10 unvaxxed Israelis are generating the same number of positives as 90 vaxxed Israelis. That's great real-world effectiveness at preventing infection.

And that doesn't even speak to the effectiveness of vaccines at preventing serious or fatal COVID.

Also nobody is saying the vaccines have a 6 month "life." It's being speculated that vaccine protection against infection starts to wane after 6 months, however protection against serious or fatal COVID seems to continue to be robust.

---

You keep spelling out that math, and some people keep ignoring it.

---

I must be bad at math, let me try this...

100 adults in Israel, 90 are vaxxed, 10 are unvaxxed. Of the 100 adults in Israel, 10 go into the hospital. Of the ten, 9 are vaxxed, 1 is not. So, if you multiply that out, the number doesn't change. The vaxxed are going in at a higher rate.

Please tell me where my math is wrong... and according to the real world Israeli doctor, he contends that the shelf life of the vaccine is 6 months.

I see what may have caused the issue. I said "same percent getting COVID". I should have said the same percent is going into the hospital with COVID.

---

Respectfully Cary, there's not a location in the world that is reporting similar rates of hospitalization for vaxxed and unvaxxed individuals. All available data indicates vaccination confers very serious protection against hospitalization and death no matter how you slice it.

It's being widely reported that unvaxxed and vaxxed INFECTIONS are occurring in similar ABSOLUTE numbers in most locations. That's a critical distinction that people either can't or won't process.

In other words, in the UK and Israel and many other countries, you are seeing roughly the same QUANTITY of vaxxed and unvaxxed people popping positive, not the same PROPORTION of vaxxed/unvaxxed positives.

In other words, for a given sample group of people you will have roughly the same number of vaxxed and unvaxxed positives.

What's key though is that in most first world countries we've got many more vaccinated people than unvaccinated people. And in most every case for these numbers are being reported, unvaxxed includes only people that have not had any shots and vaccinated includes people that have had one or two shots.

The numbers look even better for vaccination efficacy if you focus on hospitalizations and deaths for people that have been vaccinated, rather than just cases. Cases is much less meaningful barometer than hospitalizations and deaths because so many vaxxed positives are asymptomatic or only very mildly symptomatic.

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Civ caught me... Ive been lying the whole time. whatever...

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