Mormad said:

---

Jtbridges317 said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Jtbridges317 said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Everpack said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Daviewolf83 said:

---

More denominator math for everyone this morning. From the Tweet below, you get the following percentages:

% of fully vaccinated people hospitalized for Covid infection = 0.0038%
% of fully vaccinated people who died from Covid infection = 0.0008%

Of 163 million Americans fully vaccinated as of July 26, there have been 6,239 hospitalizations, including 1,263 deaths in people diagnosed with SARS-CoV-2 infection. In about 25% of cases, patients were asymptomatic or diagnosis appeared secondary to primary cause of the event. pic.twitter.com/fIqQT2Mwdg

— Scott Gottlieb, MD (@ScottGottliebMD) August 1, 2021

---

So many of the docs i talked with this week simply don't understand vaccine hesitancy for the overwhelmingly vast majority of people based on these numbers. How can any reasonable human look at those numbers and argue vaxxes don't work or that they're given for some devious reason? Very powerful information. Is there risk? Absolutely. But much less risk than the continued transmission of the virus... To our economy, our health, our society, and the mental health of the IPS coronavirus thread participants lol

---

For me, I just don't see the personal benefit. Call me selfish, but I've never been asked to be responsible for other people's health before, so I struggle to feel the guilt I'm supposed to feel by being unvaccinated. The percentage of people at my age that aren't morbidly obese that experience anything other than cold/flu like symptoms are similar to the statistics in the quoted vaccination data. To add to that, I spent exactly zero days away from work in a manufacturing facility with around 1,000 people. Once I came to the realization that it was safe enough for me to go to work every day, I made the executive decision that it was safe enough for me live my life as normal as ever. So for the past 16+ months, I've done any and everything I would've done without the words COVID19 in my vocabulary. I've went to work, I've went out to eat, I've travelled (by car and plane), I've visited with family and friends, etc. My father, step-mother, BIL, step-father, coworkers and multiple friends have tested positive for COVID19 at some point in the last 16 months. I had an uncle spend almost six weeks in the hospital. I know people in their 40's who spent time in the hospital; one of which all but died. The one factor that tied them together was being morbidly obese. Not overweight, redneck, rural, white American, fast food fat.

All of that to say, now I'm supposed to take a vaccine that is still only approved through an emergency basis? What are the chances that I haven't been exposed to the virus in the last 16+ months? Probably about the same as my chances of experiencing a severe case of COVID19 in my demographic. Practically zero. Show me real data that 30-40 year olds who aren't morbidly obese are driving the hospitalizations and get the vaccine approved without emergency use, then I'll reconsider my position.

---

That's great, man. Maybe you don't need the vaccine. Maybe i wouldn't either if in your position. But most making a similar decision aren't using such logic, and often when they convince themselves that they are, they're using faulty logic.

And, it seems that we ALL have been asked to be responsible for others' health. You don't think other vaccines, public smoking, driving drunk aren't at least partially for the good of community health?

---

Here's the thing pal. The United States as a country is obese, riddled with heart disease, and diabetes. You're expecting me to care about these people when they have yet to care for themselves? I'm so sick of the "if you don't get the vaccine, you don't care about anyone". Well ****, if I look at the data, the REAL data, Americans didn't give a damn about their diets and exercise until now. The vaccine is just a band aid to the real issue we face in society. Put down the damn fork and go outside

---

Now, THAT I agree with 100%. Your statement goes WELL beyond coronavirus.

I don't think the argument should be "do this for others." But we all want this to go away. What's the best, easiest, fastest way to normalcy and shutting up whatever side of this argument we are tired of hearing? To me it's vaccination based on what we know right now.

Your point, which to me is extremely valid, is that we live in a society with ever increasing poor habits and health. Again, this flies in the face of the at-risk population being a small slice of the pie.

---

But is the fastest, easiest way the best way? That's what gotten us in so much trouble as a country. Sure, why workout for 3-4 years to improve my overall health when I could just get Lipo?

Instant gratification kills

---

Does it kill in a pandemic though? Do we have the luxury of time? Isn't the vaccine the thing that has bought us a little time? If so, for how much longer? This isn't like working out to look good and be healthy. That's what i love too. But does a viral pandemic offer the luxury of time? If you had a mild MI and you were out of shape and a little pudgy, would you take 3-4 yrs to work yourself back to health or would you take ASA, lipitor, and a stent to buy you the time necessary to get back in shape? Sometimes medical treatment type of instant gratification reduces killing imho, otherwise I'm in the wrong career.

So, yes, for now and until things change, the available knowledge suggests the vaccines are the easiest, fastest, safest way out. Should they be mandated? Hell no. Should every human get one? Hell no. Maybe all here who argue against it are the youngest, healthiest, least at-risk mofos alive. That's fantastic. But that doesn't mean those decisions are good for all. (I know you know that, but i felt it should be said)

Thanks for your points, btw. I enjoy discussing them.

---

packgrad said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Everpack said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Everpack said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Daviewolf83 said:

---

More denominator math for everyone this morning. From the Tweet below, you get the following percentages:

% of fully vaccinated people hospitalized for Covid infection = 0.0038%
% of fully vaccinated people who died from Covid infection = 0.0008%

Of 163 million Americans fully vaccinated as of July 26, there have been 6,239 hospitalizations, including 1,263 deaths in people diagnosed with SARS-CoV-2 infection. In about 25% of cases, patients were asymptomatic or diagnosis appeared secondary to primary cause of the event. pic.twitter.com/fIqQT2Mwdg

— Scott Gottlieb, MD (@ScottGottliebMD) August 1, 2021

---

So many of the docs i talked with this week simply don't understand vaccine hesitancy for the overwhelmingly vast majority of people based on these numbers. How can any reasonable human look at those numbers and argue vaxxes don't work or that they're given for some devious reason? Very powerful information. Is there risk? Absolutely. But much less risk than the continued transmission of the virus... To our economy, our health, our society, and the mental health of the IPS coronavirus thread participants lol

---

For me, I just don't see the personal benefit. Call me selfish, but I've never been asked to be responsible for other people's health before, so I struggle to feel the guilt I'm supposed to feel by being unvaccinated. The percentage of people at my age that aren't morbidly obese that experience anything other than cold/flu like symptoms are similar to the statistics in the quoted vaccination data. To add to that, I spent exactly zero days away from work in a manufacturing facility with around 1,000 people. Once I came to the realization that it was safe enough for me to go to work every day, I made the executive decision that it was safe enough for me live my life as normal as ever. So for the past 16+ months, I've done any and everything I would've done without the words COVID19 in my vocabulary. I've went to work, I've went out to eat, I've travelled (by car and plane), I've visited with family and friends, etc. My father, step-mother, BIL, step-father, coworkers and multiple friends have tested positive for COVID19 at some point in the last 16 months. I had an uncle spend almost six weeks in the hospital. I know people in their 40's who spent time in the hospital; one of which all but died. The one factor that tied them together was being morbidly obese. Not overweight, redneck, rural, white American, fast food fat.

All of that to say, now I'm supposed to take a vaccine that is still only approved through an emergency basis? What are the chances that I haven't been exposed to the virus in the last 16+ months? Probably about the same as my chances of experiencing a severe case of COVID19 in my demographic. Practically zero. Show me real data that 30-40 year olds who aren't morbidly obese are driving the hospitalizations and get the vaccine approved without emergency use, then I'll reconsider my position.

---

That's great, man. Maybe you don't need the vaccine. Maybe i wouldn't either if in your position. But most making a similar decision aren't using such logic, and often when they convince themselves that they are, they're using faulty logic.

And, it seems that we ALL have been asked to be responsible for others' health. You don't think other vaccines, public smoking, driving drunk aren't at least partially for the good of community health?

---

I'll admit that I struggle with that last paragraph, at least in my own mind. Other vaccines are tried and true and fully approved by all the letters of our govt. I should probably note that I've never taken a flu shot, nor have I ever had the flu. I hate the smell of cigarette smoke, but I'm not a fan of telling private business what they can and can't allow in their establishments (thankful as I may be to not have to smell it in restaurants). Driving drunk is a poor choice for an analogy here, I think. That's an action an individual chooses to take.

Trust me, I hear the argument about small pox and polio vaccines. Correct me if I am wrong, but those vaccines prevented transmission of those viruses. I think that's the other hang up for me with this vaccine, and the current information transmission by our overlords doesn't help any, even though I see the benefits of vaccinating those at serious risk.

---

No offense to you, because clearly you are not unique in your opinionbut reading it reminds me again of how blessed we were to have had The Greatest Generation.

And I'm glad they didn't say they didn't care about Hawaii or Europe, because it really want their job to care about their well being

---

What a ridiculous comparison.

---

DrummerboyWolf said:

---

I don't post much on this thread. If you watch this video with Dr. David Martin, and I am not sure if it's been posted, but he has some concrete evidence that the "virus" is a bioweapon. He believes the whole pandemic was created by Fauci, Dasak, and Baric out of UNC-CH. Some eye opening stuff.

Ok updated link.

https://rumble.com/vk2bya-exclusive-dr.-david-martin-just-ended-covid-fauci-doj-politicians-in-one-in.html

---

Packchem91 said:

---

packgrad said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Everpack said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Everpack said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Daviewolf83 said:

---

More denominator math for everyone this morning. From the Tweet below, you get the following percentages:

% of fully vaccinated people hospitalized for Covid infection = 0.0038%
% of fully vaccinated people who died from Covid infection = 0.0008%

Of 163 million Americans fully vaccinated as of July 26, there have been 6,239 hospitalizations, including 1,263 deaths in people diagnosed with SARS-CoV-2 infection. In about 25% of cases, patients were asymptomatic or diagnosis appeared secondary to primary cause of the event. pic.twitter.com/fIqQT2Mwdg

— Scott Gottlieb, MD (@ScottGottliebMD) August 1, 2021

---

So many of the docs i talked with this week simply don't understand vaccine hesitancy for the overwhelmingly vast majority of people based on these numbers. How can any reasonable human look at those numbers and argue vaxxes don't work or that they're given for some devious reason? Very powerful information. Is there risk? Absolutely. But much less risk than the continued transmission of the virus... To our economy, our health, our society, and the mental health of the IPS coronavirus thread participants lol

---

For me, I just don't see the personal benefit. Call me selfish, but I've never been asked to be responsible for other people's health before, so I struggle to feel the guilt I'm supposed to feel by being unvaccinated. The percentage of people at my age that aren't morbidly obese that experience anything other than cold/flu like symptoms are similar to the statistics in the quoted vaccination data. To add to that, I spent exactly zero days away from work in a manufacturing facility with around 1,000 people. Once I came to the realization that it was safe enough for me to go to work every day, I made the executive decision that it was safe enough for me live my life as normal as ever. So for the past 16+ months, I've done any and everything I would've done without the words COVID19 in my vocabulary. I've went to work, I've went out to eat, I've travelled (by car and plane), I've visited with family and friends, etc. My father, step-mother, BIL, step-father, coworkers and multiple friends have tested positive for COVID19 at some point in the last 16 months. I had an uncle spend almost six weeks in the hospital. I know people in their 40's who spent time in the hospital; one of which all but died. The one factor that tied them together was being morbidly obese. Not overweight, redneck, rural, white American, fast food fat.

All of that to say, now I'm supposed to take a vaccine that is still only approved through an emergency basis? What are the chances that I haven't been exposed to the virus in the last 16+ months? Probably about the same as my chances of experiencing a severe case of COVID19 in my demographic. Practically zero. Show me real data that 30-40 year olds who aren't morbidly obese are driving the hospitalizations and get the vaccine approved without emergency use, then I'll reconsider my position.

---

That's great, man. Maybe you don't need the vaccine. Maybe i wouldn't either if in your position. But most making a similar decision aren't using such logic, and often when they convince themselves that they are, they're using faulty logic.

And, it seems that we ALL have been asked to be responsible for others' health. You don't think other vaccines, public smoking, driving drunk aren't at least partially for the good of community health?

---

I'll admit that I struggle with that last paragraph, at least in my own mind. Other vaccines are tried and true and fully approved by all the letters of our govt. I should probably note that I've never taken a flu shot, nor have I ever had the flu. I hate the smell of cigarette smoke, but I'm not a fan of telling private business what they can and can't allow in their establishments (thankful as I may be to not have to smell it in restaurants). Driving drunk is a poor choice for an analogy here, I think. That's an action an individual chooses to take.

Trust me, I hear the argument about small pox and polio vaccines. Correct me if I am wrong, but those vaccines prevented transmission of those viruses. I think that's the other hang up for me with this vaccine, and the current information transmission by our overlords doesn't help any, even though I see the benefits of vaccinating those at serious risk.

---

No offense to you, because clearly you are not unique in your opinionbut reading it reminds me again of how blessed we were to have had The Greatest Generation.

And I'm glad they didn't say they didn't care about Hawaii or Europe, because it really want their job to care about their well being

---

What a ridiculous comparison.

---

Well, true, more Americans have died in the 18 mos of Covid related issues than the 5 yrs of WW2.
I mean, I know it was a bit of an absurd compare

But my point was really how much more selfish we are today. We just had multiple posters say the health of others is not their concern.
But imagine if those farmers, accountants, students, etc, could have just chosen to take care if themselves. The heck with others.

We got folks on here whining about their "rights" to not wear a mask (which may help but certainly does not hurt) or get a shot (which demonstrably works to slow Covid)compared to guys KNOWING they were likely to die on someone else's soil, but signing up anyway. What, Me Wear a cloth mask?..waaaahhhh.

---

Jtbridges317 said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Jtbridges317 said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Jtbridges317 said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Everpack said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Daviewolf83 said:

---

More denominator math for everyone this morning. From the Tweet below, you get the following percentages:

% of fully vaccinated people hospitalized for Covid infection = 0.0038%
% of fully vaccinated people who died from Covid infection = 0.0008%

Of 163 million Americans fully vaccinated as of July 26, there have been 6,239 hospitalizations, including 1,263 deaths in people diagnosed with SARS-CoV-2 infection. In about 25% of cases, patients were asymptomatic or diagnosis appeared secondary to primary cause of the event. pic.twitter.com/fIqQT2Mwdg

— Scott Gottlieb, MD (@ScottGottliebMD) August 1, 2021

---

So many of the docs i talked with this week simply don't understand vaccine hesitancy for the overwhelmingly vast majority of people based on these numbers. How can any reasonable human look at those numbers and argue vaxxes don't work or that they're given for some devious reason? Very powerful information. Is there risk? Absolutely. But much less risk than the continued transmission of the virus... To our economy, our health, our society, and the mental health of the IPS coronavirus thread participants lol

---

For me, I just don't see the personal benefit. Call me selfish, but I've never been asked to be responsible for other people's health before, so I struggle to feel the guilt I'm supposed to feel by being unvaccinated. The percentage of people at my age that aren't morbidly obese that experience anything other than cold/flu like symptoms are similar to the statistics in the quoted vaccination data. To add to that, I spent exactly zero days away from work in a manufacturing facility with around 1,000 people. Once I came to the realization that it was safe enough for me to go to work every day, I made the executive decision that it was safe enough for me live my life as normal as ever. So for the past 16+ months, I've done any and everything I would've done without the words COVID19 in my vocabulary. I've went to work, I've went out to eat, I've travelled (by car and plane), I've visited with family and friends, etc. My father, step-mother, BIL, step-father, coworkers and multiple friends have tested positive for COVID19 at some point in the last 16 months. I had an uncle spend almost six weeks in the hospital. I know people in their 40's who spent time in the hospital; one of which all but died. The one factor that tied them together was being morbidly obese. Not overweight, redneck, rural, white American, fast food fat.

All of that to say, now I'm supposed to take a vaccine that is still only approved through an emergency basis? What are the chances that I haven't been exposed to the virus in the last 16+ months? Probably about the same as my chances of experiencing a severe case of COVID19 in my demographic. Practically zero. Show me real data that 30-40 year olds who aren't morbidly obese are driving the hospitalizations and get the vaccine approved without emergency use, then I'll reconsider my position.

---

That's great, man. Maybe you don't need the vaccine. Maybe i wouldn't either if in your position. But most making a similar decision aren't using such logic, and often when they convince themselves that they are, they're using faulty logic.

And, it seems that we ALL have been asked to be responsible for others' health. You don't think other vaccines, public smoking, driving drunk aren't at least partially for the good of community health?

---

Here's the thing pal. The United States as a country is obese, riddled with heart disease, and diabetes. You're expecting me to care about these people when they have yet to care for themselves? I'm so sick of the "if you don't get the vaccine, you don't care about anyone". Well ****, if I look at the data, the REAL data, Americans didn't give a damn about their diets and exercise until now. The vaccine is just a band aid to the real issue we face in society. Put down the damn fork and go outside

---

Now, THAT I agree with 100%. Your statement goes WELL beyond coronavirus.

I don't think the argument should be "do this for others." But we all want this to go away. What's the best, easiest, fastest way to normalcy and shutting up whatever side of this argument we are tired of hearing? To me it's vaccination based on what we know right now.

Your point, which to me is extremely valid, is that we live in a society with ever increasing poor habits and health. Again, this flies in the face of the at-risk population being a small slice of the pie.

---

But is the fastest, easiest way the best way? That's what gotten us in so much trouble as a country. Sure, why workout for 3-4 years to improve my overall health when I could just get Lipo?

Instant gratification kills

---

Does it kill in a pandemic though? Do we have the luxury of time? Isn't the vaccine the thing that has bought us a little time? If so, for how much longer? This isn't like working out to look good and be healthy. That's what i love too. But does a viral pandemic offer the luxury of time? If you had a mild MI and you were out of shape and a little pudgy, would you take 3-4 yrs to work yourself back to health or would you take ASA, lipitor, and a stent to buy you the time necessary to get back in shape? Sometimes medical treatment type of instant gratification reduces killing imho, otherwise I'm in the wrong career.

So, yes, for now and until things change, the available knowledge suggests the vaccines are the easiest, fastest, safest way out. Should they be mandated? Hell no. Should every human get one? Hell no. Maybe all here who argue against it are the youngest, healthiest, least at-risk mofos alive. That's fantastic. But that doesn't mean those decisions are good for all. (I know you know that, but i felt it should be said)

Thanks for your points, btw. I enjoy discussing them.

---

My whole point is this. If we as Americans would have focused on building better eating habits, exercise routines, and more daily vitamin, PLUS supplementing whatever we are short of, we would be in much better shape, both physically and in regards to Covid. I guess I've always known life to be a long game, not a near sighted sprint. Unfortunately most individuals live for today and tomorrow but not for 10-20 years down the road.

But I am grateful that you don't believe they should be mandated. I believe at the rate we are going we will be living in a two tiered society before too long. The vaxxed and the unvaxxed. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't like what I see

---

caryking said:

---

Jtbridges317 said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Jtbridges317 said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Jtbridges317 said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Everpack said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Daviewolf83 said:

---

More denominator math for everyone this morning. From the Tweet below, you get the following percentages:

% of fully vaccinated people hospitalized for Covid infection = 0.0038%
% of fully vaccinated people who died from Covid infection = 0.0008%

Of 163 million Americans fully vaccinated as of July 26, there have been 6,239 hospitalizations, including 1,263 deaths in people diagnosed with SARS-CoV-2 infection. In about 25% of cases, patients were asymptomatic or diagnosis appeared secondary to primary cause of the event. pic.twitter.com/fIqQT2Mwdg

— Scott Gottlieb, MD (@ScottGottliebMD) August 1, 2021

---

So many of the docs i talked with this week simply don't understand vaccine hesitancy for the overwhelmingly vast majority of people based on these numbers. How can any reasonable human look at those numbers and argue vaxxes don't work or that they're given for some devious reason? Very powerful information. Is there risk? Absolutely. But much less risk than the continued transmission of the virus... To our economy, our health, our society, and the mental health of the IPS coronavirus thread participants lol

---

For me, I just don't see the personal benefit. Call me selfish, but I've never been asked to be responsible for other people's health before, so I struggle to feel the guilt I'm supposed to feel by being unvaccinated. The percentage of people at my age that aren't morbidly obese that experience anything other than cold/flu like symptoms are similar to the statistics in the quoted vaccination data. To add to that, I spent exactly zero days away from work in a manufacturing facility with around 1,000 people. Once I came to the realization that it was safe enough for me to go to work every day, I made the executive decision that it was safe enough for me live my life as normal as ever. So for the past 16+ months, I've done any and everything I would've done without the words COVID19 in my vocabulary. I've went to work, I've went out to eat, I've travelled (by car and plane), I've visited with family and friends, etc. My father, step-mother, BIL, step-father, coworkers and multiple friends have tested positive for COVID19 at some point in the last 16 months. I had an uncle spend almost six weeks in the hospital. I know people in their 40's who spent time in the hospital; one of which all but died. The one factor that tied them together was being morbidly obese. Not overweight, redneck, rural, white American, fast food fat.

All of that to say, now I'm supposed to take a vaccine that is still only approved through an emergency basis? What are the chances that I haven't been exposed to the virus in the last 16+ months? Probably about the same as my chances of experiencing a severe case of COVID19 in my demographic. Practically zero. Show me real data that 30-40 year olds who aren't morbidly obese are driving the hospitalizations and get the vaccine approved without emergency use, then I'll reconsider my position.

---

That's great, man. Maybe you don't need the vaccine. Maybe i wouldn't either if in your position. But most making a similar decision aren't using such logic, and often when they convince themselves that they are, they're using faulty logic.

And, it seems that we ALL have been asked to be responsible for others' health. You don't think other vaccines, public smoking, driving drunk aren't at least partially for the good of community health?

---

Here's the thing pal. The United States as a country is obese, riddled with heart disease, and diabetes. You're expecting me to care about these people when they have yet to care for themselves? I'm so sick of the "if you don't get the vaccine, you don't care about anyone". Well ****, if I look at the data, the REAL data, Americans didn't give a damn about their diets and exercise until now. The vaccine is just a band aid to the real issue we face in society. Put down the damn fork and go outside

---

Now, THAT I agree with 100%. Your statement goes WELL beyond coronavirus.

I don't think the argument should be "do this for others." But we all want this to go away. What's the best, easiest, fastest way to normalcy and shutting up whatever side of this argument we are tired of hearing? To me it's vaccination based on what we know right now.

Your point, which to me is extremely valid, is that we live in a society with ever increasing poor habits and health. Again, this flies in the face of the at-risk population being a small slice of the pie.

---

But is the fastest, easiest way the best way? That's what gotten us in so much trouble as a country. Sure, why workout for 3-4 years to improve my overall health when I could just get Lipo?

Instant gratification kills

---

Does it kill in a pandemic though? Do we have the luxury of time? Isn't the vaccine the thing that has bought us a little time? If so, for how much longer? This isn't like working out to look good and be healthy. That's what i love too. But does a viral pandemic offer the luxury of time? If you had a mild MI and you were out of shape and a little pudgy, would you take 3-4 yrs to work yourself back to health or would you take ASA, lipitor, and a stent to buy you the time necessary to get back in shape? Sometimes medical treatment type of instant gratification reduces killing imho, otherwise I'm in the wrong career.

So, yes, for now and until things change, the available knowledge suggests the vaccines are the easiest, fastest, safest way out. Should they be mandated? Hell no. Should every human get one? Hell no. Maybe all here who argue against it are the youngest, healthiest, least at-risk mofos alive. That's fantastic. But that doesn't mean those decisions are good for all. (I know you know that, but i felt it should be said)

Thanks for your points, btw. I enjoy discussing them.

---

My whole point is this. If we as Americans would have focused on building better eating habits, exercise routines, and more daily vitamin, PLUS supplementing whatever we are short of, we would be in much better shape, both physically and in regards to Covid. I guess I've always known life to be a long game, not a near sighted sprint. Unfortunately most individuals live for today and tomorrow but not for 10-20 years down the road.

But I am grateful that you don't believe they should be mandated. I believe at the rate we are going we will be living in a two tiered society before too long. The vaxxed and the unvaxxed. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't like what I see

---

JT, you are correct... the obesity in our country is a major problem (BTW, I'm way over weight) and are in the high risk group. Whether they should get the vaccine, well, that's not for me to say.

Non-media hysterical doctors completely advise "against" the vaccine for people not in an "at-risk" group. We are not hearing this argument for some reason. Money?

Do your research and get to know how corona viruses affect people and how society really should deal with them. You are being fed the "Big Lie" right now!! I'm convinced!!

---

Packchem91 said:

---

statefan91 said:

---

Thank you so much for actually putting this study in context and - after this scary week of bad messaging- telling us what happened and how well the vaccines work! https://t.co/j5d4lDu7G7

— Monica Gandhi MD, MPH (@MonicaGandhi9) July 31, 2021

Sounds like the super spreader event in MA was called Bear Week and it is a huge congregation of gay men that come together. It would be like using a spring break town to set national policy

---

Visited Provincetown when went to Cape Cod.I guarantee none of those folks attending that celebration were Trump voters lol

---

Jtbridges317 said:

---

caryking said:

---

Jtbridges317 said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Jtbridges317 said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Jtbridges317 said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Everpack said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Daviewolf83 said:

---

More denominator math for everyone this morning. From the Tweet below, you get the following percentages:

% of fully vaccinated people hospitalized for Covid infection = 0.0038%
% of fully vaccinated people who died from Covid infection = 0.0008%

Of 163 million Americans fully vaccinated as of July 26, there have been 6,239 hospitalizations, including 1,263 deaths in people diagnosed with SARS-CoV-2 infection. In about 25% of cases, patients were asymptomatic or diagnosis appeared secondary to primary cause of the event. pic.twitter.com/fIqQT2Mwdg

— Scott Gottlieb, MD (@ScottGottliebMD) August 1, 2021

---

So many of the docs i talked with this week simply don't understand vaccine hesitancy for the overwhelmingly vast majority of people based on these numbers. How can any reasonable human look at those numbers and argue vaxxes don't work or that they're given for some devious reason? Very powerful information. Is there risk? Absolutely. But much less risk than the continued transmission of the virus... To our economy, our health, our society, and the mental health of the IPS coronavirus thread participants lol

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For me, I just don't see the personal benefit. Call me selfish, but I've never been asked to be responsible for other people's health before, so I struggle to feel the guilt I'm supposed to feel by being unvaccinated. The percentage of people at my age that aren't morbidly obese that experience anything other than cold/flu like symptoms are similar to the statistics in the quoted vaccination data. To add to that, I spent exactly zero days away from work in a manufacturing facility with around 1,000 people. Once I came to the realization that it was safe enough for me to go to work every day, I made the executive decision that it was safe enough for me live my life as normal as ever. So for the past 16+ months, I've done any and everything I would've done without the words COVID19 in my vocabulary. I've went to work, I've went out to eat, I've travelled (by car and plane), I've visited with family and friends, etc. My father, step-mother, BIL, step-father, coworkers and multiple friends have tested positive for COVID19 at some point in the last 16 months. I had an uncle spend almost six weeks in the hospital. I know people in their 40's who spent time in the hospital; one of which all but died. The one factor that tied them together was being morbidly obese. Not overweight, redneck, rural, white American, fast food fat.

All of that to say, now I'm supposed to take a vaccine that is still only approved through an emergency basis? What are the chances that I haven't been exposed to the virus in the last 16+ months? Probably about the same as my chances of experiencing a severe case of COVID19 in my demographic. Practically zero. Show me real data that 30-40 year olds who aren't morbidly obese are driving the hospitalizations and get the vaccine approved without emergency use, then I'll reconsider my position.

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That's great, man. Maybe you don't need the vaccine. Maybe i wouldn't either if in your position. But most making a similar decision aren't using such logic, and often when they convince themselves that they are, they're using faulty logic.

And, it seems that we ALL have been asked to be responsible for others' health. You don't think other vaccines, public smoking, driving drunk aren't at least partially for the good of community health?

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Here's the thing pal. The United States as a country is obese, riddled with heart disease, and diabetes. You're expecting me to care about these people when they have yet to care for themselves? I'm so sick of the "if you don't get the vaccine, you don't care about anyone". Well ****, if I look at the data, the REAL data, Americans didn't give a damn about their diets and exercise until now. The vaccine is just a band aid to the real issue we face in society. Put down the damn fork and go outside

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Now, THAT I agree with 100%. Your statement goes WELL beyond coronavirus.

I don't think the argument should be "do this for others." But we all want this to go away. What's the best, easiest, fastest way to normalcy and shutting up whatever side of this argument we are tired of hearing? To me it's vaccination based on what we know right now.

Your point, which to me is extremely valid, is that we live in a society with ever increasing poor habits and health. Again, this flies in the face of the at-risk population being a small slice of the pie.

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But is the fastest, easiest way the best way? That's what gotten us in so much trouble as a country. Sure, why workout for 3-4 years to improve my overall health when I could just get Lipo?

Instant gratification kills

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Does it kill in a pandemic though? Do we have the luxury of time? Isn't the vaccine the thing that has bought us a little time? If so, for how much longer? This isn't like working out to look good and be healthy. That's what i love too. But does a viral pandemic offer the luxury of time? If you had a mild MI and you were out of shape and a little pudgy, would you take 3-4 yrs to work yourself back to health or would you take ASA, lipitor, and a stent to buy you the time necessary to get back in shape? Sometimes medical treatment type of instant gratification reduces killing imho, otherwise I'm in the wrong career.

So, yes, for now and until things change, the available knowledge suggests the vaccines are the easiest, fastest, safest way out. Should they be mandated? Hell no. Should every human get one? Hell no. Maybe all here who argue against it are the youngest, healthiest, least at-risk mofos alive. That's fantastic. But that doesn't mean those decisions are good for all. (I know you know that, but i felt it should be said)

Thanks for your points, btw. I enjoy discussing them.

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My whole point is this. If we as Americans would have focused on building better eating habits, exercise routines, and more daily vitamin, PLUS supplementing whatever we are short of, we would be in much better shape, both physically and in regards to Covid. I guess I've always known life to be a long game, not a near sighted sprint. Unfortunately most individuals live for today and tomorrow but not for 10-20 years down the road.

But I am grateful that you don't believe they should be mandated. I believe at the rate we are going we will be living in a two tiered society before too long. The vaxxed and the unvaxxed. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't like what I see

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JT, you are correct... the obesity in our country is a major problem (BTW, I'm way over weight) and are in the high risk group. Whether they should get the vaccine, well, that's not for me to say.

Non-media hysterical doctors completely advise "against" the vaccine for people not in an "at-risk" group. We are not hearing this argument for some reason. Money?

Do your research and get to know how corona viruses affect people and how society really should deal with them. You are being fed the "Big Lie" right now!! I'm convinced!!

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I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that Covid isn't as big of a deal as people are thinking or it is? I'm in the "not as big of a deal" camp.

Trust me, I've looked into it and done plenty of research. Big fan of the Barrington Declaration, which I'm sure millions of people have not heard of. 15,000 doctors have signed it saying we are going about this the wrong way.

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NEW: Union Academy Charter School is mandating masks for all students, staff and visitors for the next month. They were one of the first to return and originally made masks optional. 8 students tested positive for COVID in the first week and almost 100 are in quarantine

— Joe Bruno (@JoeBrunoWSOC9) August 2, 2021

Packchem91 said:

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packgrad said:

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Packchem91 said:

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packgrad said:

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guyWe are now shaming people to get the vaccine, and wear masks, because people went to war to fight the Germans that were eradicating Jews, and fighting Japan who attacked our base on Pearl Harbor, and also killed hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Chinese and people in the Pacific Islands.

Shame on all of you who don't get vaccinated or wear masks because people went to war in the 1940s to defend the country and keep Jews from being exterminated.

So. ****ing. Stupid.

But typical message board guy logic.

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Says the typical "get off my lawn" angry guy. I'm not shaming anyone. We're having a discussion on a private message board of what, 20 people, not making policy here, so my comments aren't going to be used to make anyone change, just as yours don't. If you are offended or shamed by my commenting that people today are much more selfish now...thats a you problem.

I found it interesting that You responded to my commetns about my trip and having to wear a mask by sympathy...WTH, imagine that, we are sympathetic to a bunch of people having to, imagine this, wear a cloth mask for 8-10 hours in a day, oh the horrors. I mean, it was slightly irritating to my ears after a while, it made it much more difficult to hear, but THAT is what you think deserves sympathy?

Lord, we also had no water pressure for the shower, the toilets didn't work one whole day, the ceiling in my room leaked water on my bed during a huge storm, and a stomach virus made thr rounds in group, including my son and I on the way home, which was interrupted by missing our connection and having to spend the night in the MIA airport.
ALLLLLLL of those things were much more impactful than having to slap a mask onto my face, lol. But, "my rights"....lol.

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I find it interesting how comfortably you lie about me supposedly talking about masks on your trip. That's a you problem.

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If I could reply with a copied post, I"d do so here...but go look at your post from 7/24 at 9:25pm. Maybe it was your twin?
You can just admit you're wrong...it won't kill you.

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Mormad said:

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Packchem91 said:

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I feel for school districts and have a feeling this is going to be very common

Union County is heavily GOP, amd was the first local county to make a decision on masks - no masks

Now the year-round school which is under the puck is school board jurisdiction, has had some cases and has already had to have a school specific change to require masks for a month.
But I like that they specifically focused it on the school with the problem. But I have a feeling many districts will again deal with this this year

NEW: Union Academy Charter School is mandating masks for all students, staff and visitors for the next month. They were one of the first to return and originally made masks optional. 8 students tested positive for COVID in the first week and almost 100 are in quarantine

— Joe Bruno (@JoeBrunoWSOC9) August 2, 2021

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It's a mess, and it's going to keep happening.

The infection itself is usually not bad in kids. There is some risk of long disease, but not much. It's all good when it's somebody else's kid. No worries. Kids aren't felt to be big spreaders like the flu, though there have been enough Page parties and lower school sleep overs with multiple resultant positives for me to question this data from a real world perspective. But the constant testing, missed school, quarantining is a pain in the royal arse for kids and families and the schools.

Would vaccination end the madness? What are the risks of such mass vaccination? Myocardial issues? Long term risk? Is normalcy worth the risk? Probably to the families who don't have kids with side effects from the vaccine or affected by a positive covid test near their kid. Just say F it and return to normal, quit testing kids, let them spread it and develop immunity? What's the risk to the kids? To their families? What's the advantage of such an approach? Indemnify the decision makers? There will be mad moms either way. Lots of questions. Few known answers without risk of consequence either way. Which consequences are we willing to accept? I don't have the answers for sure...

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Mormad said:

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Packchem91 said:

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I feel for school districts and have a feeling this is going to be very common

Union County is heavily GOP, amd was the first local county to make a decision on masks - no masks

Now the year-round school which is under the puck is school board jurisdiction, has had some cases and has already had to have a school specific change to require masks for a month.
But I like that they specifically focused it on the school with the problem. But I have a feeling many districts will again deal with this this year

NEW: Union Academy Charter School is mandating masks for all students, staff and visitors for the next month. They were one of the first to return and originally made masks optional. 8 students tested positive for COVID in the first week and almost 100 are in quarantine

— Joe Bruno (@JoeBrunoWSOC9) August 2, 2021

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It's a mess, and it's going to keep happening.

The infection itself is usually not bad in kids. There is some risk of long disease, but not much. It's all good when it's somebody else's kid. No worries. Kids aren't felt to be big spreaders like the flu, though there have been enough Page parties and lower school sleep overs with multiple resultant positives for me to question this data from a real world perspective. But the constant testing, missed school, quarantining is a pain in the royal arse for kids and families and the schools.

Would vaccination end the madness? What are the risks of such mass vaccination? Myocardial issues? Long term risk? Is normalcy worth the risk? Probably to the families who don't have kids with side effects from the vaccine or affected by a positive covid test near their kid. Just say F it and return to normal, quit testing kids, let them spread it and develop immunity? What's the risk to the kids? To their families? What's the advantage of such an approach? Indemnify the decision makers? There will be mad moms either way. Lots of questions. Few known answers without risk of consequence either way. Which consequences are we willing to accept? I don't have the answers for sure...

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CDC update July 16, 2021
Among kids 12-17
1 in 22k have myocarditis (risk not broken down M vs F)
1 in 2500 hospitalized for any reason

The benefits/ harm balance must be carefully assessed in 5-11 yo, and notably UK not recommending vax in healthy <18https://t.co/rRcFxrB6YT pic.twitter.com/zX1uoKdlVb

— Vinay Prasad, MD MPH 🎙️📷 (@VPrasadMDMPH) August 2, 2021

Mormad said:

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My wife is on the board of our kids' school. They spend more time on this then any other topic, at the expense of those topics. It seems so easy to make decisions until you actually have to make the decision that will affect so many and it's actually policy. And people are pissed either way and the phone calls and complaining are endless. They stayed in person for the life of the pandemic, shutting down 8th grade once. But damn.

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Wayland said:

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statefan91 said:

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I could go either way wtih vaxxing my 5 soon to be 6 year old. He has already had COVID in December when we all got it.

The CDC recommendations still require classroom shutdown if there is a confirmed case and he is required to be in quarantine for 14 days. Honestly, it's terrible for parents and for the kids to be trying to work during that time, not see family and friends and not be at school / daycare. So if vaccination moves him into a category where he doesn't have to do that every time there's a case or exposure, then that's definitely something I will consider.

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That is a driving force I think for a lot of child COVID vaccinations. I am not sure forced inconvenience is a good justification and here I am in the exact same boat. Especially since some of the issues seem to be tending towards younger males (as rare as they may be).

At this point, my son has had his first dose, and the main motivation behind a second dose is so we aren't inconvenienced.... and that feels a little disgusting to me. That being said, if he is being held to the same theater rules vaxxed or not.... I don't see a risk benefit to him getting a second dose... sorry... just isn't there.

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PackPA2015 said:

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Wayland said:

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statefan91 said:

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I could go either way wtih vaxxing my 5 soon to be 6 year old. He has already had COVID in December when we all got it.

The CDC recommendations still require classroom shutdown if there is a confirmed case and he is required to be in quarantine for 14 days. Honestly, it's terrible for parents and for the kids to be trying to work during that time, not see family and friends and not be at school / daycare. So if vaccination moves him into a category where he doesn't have to do that every time there's a case or exposure, then that's definitely something I will consider.

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That is a driving force I think for a lot of child COVID vaccinations. I am not sure forced inconvenience is a good justification and here I am in the exact same boat. Especially since some of the issues seem to be tending towards younger males (as rare as they may be).

At this point, my son has had his first dose, and the main motivation behind a second dose is so we aren't inconvenienced.... and that feels a little disgusting to me. That being said, if he is being held to the same theater rules vaxxed or not.... I don't see a risk benefit to him getting a second dose... sorry... just isn't there.

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I have been recommending to my 12-18 year olds who want to be or parents want them to be to receive that first dose. You get protection without any significant risks. Then, I would delay the second dose for at least 12 weeks.

Based on the adverse effect data, this limits the risk significantly. Does your school district make them quarantine for positive contacts unless fully vaccinated?

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PackPA2015 said:

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I have been recommending to my 12-18 year olds who want to be or parents want them to be to receive that first dose. You get protection without any significant risks. Then, I would delay the second dose for at least 12 weeks.

Based on the adverse effect data, this limits the risk significantly. Does your school district make them quarantine for positive contacts unless fully vaccinated?

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Wayland said:

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statefan91 said:

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I could go either way wtih vaxxing my 5 soon to be 6 year old. He has already had COVID in December when we all got it.

The CDC recommendations still require classroom shutdown if there is a confirmed case and he is required to be in quarantine for 14 days. Honestly, it's terrible for parents and for the kids to be trying to work during that time, not see family and friends and not be at school / daycare. So if vaccination moves him into a category where he doesn't have to do that every time there's a case or exposure, then that's definitely something I will consider.

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That is a driving force I think for a lot of child COVID vaccinations. I am not sure forced inconvenience is a good justification and here I am in the exact same boat. Especially since some of the issues seem to be tending towards younger males (as rare as they may be).

At this point, my son has had his first dose, and the main motivation behind a second dose is so we aren't inconvenienced.... and that feels a little disgusting to me. That being said, if he is being held to the same theater rules vaxxed or not.... I don't see a risk benefit to him getting a second dose... sorry... just isn't there.

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