I'll take those odds all day long.

Daviewolf83 said:

---

Apparently, the news media is banned from using denominators in their headlines and stories. Thank goodness, many of us passed our math classes.

So, about 0.07%. Therefore, 99.93% of fully vaccinated Americans have not tested positive. Context matters. https://t.co/LmFf7KNSds

— Chise 🧬🧫🦠💉 (@sailorrooscout) August 1, 2021

---

And we are still stuck on the idea that positive tests matter. How many fully vaccinated Americans became seriously ill from covid is the only number that matters.

NCSUBill said:

---

I had a heart attack 1 wk after 2nd injection. Supposedly not related, but I am calling BS.

---

Which one did you get?

I think the vaccine complication rate, while still very low and much lower than risk of complications from infection, are much higher than published. So many go unrecognized, under reported, or mislabeled.

Doesn't change my opinion regarding encouraging vaccination for most, but it helps to understand all the ramifications before helping people decide what's best for them.

packgrad said:

---

MIL Pfizer. Brother Moderna.

---

Thanks for the info. I'm definitely going to start talking about this more with my perioperative pts.

The difficulty here is knowing whether the DVTs in this instance (and the majority of instances) are vaccine-induced or typical perioperative complications. Specific testing would have to be done, and the docs would have to report these as potential complications of the vaccine.

We know that the adenovirus vector vaxxes like AZ and JJ have higher rates of thrombotic complications, and we know there have been rare reports with mRNA vaxxes. These rates are reportedly 8-10x less than those reported from the infection, but who knows how accurate that reporting really is?

The rate of thrombotic complications with the virus is like 40/1M. With the vaccines, 4/1M. With orthopaedic surgery, the rate is 3% with proper prophylaxis and about 80% without. So the odds, despite the seemingly weird coincidence, are that they had DVTs related to surgery and not vaccination. But how much role did the vaxxes play? How do we know without specific lab testing? Do most docs even know what to look for? Hell, i don't.

But this is the kind of info that should always make us re eval what we think we know. I don't want to scare my pts, but they have to realize there may be extra risk. We just don't know how to quantify it.

The REAL "Big Lie"... but with the news media and the Obama / Rice administration working in lockstep to peddle the narrative on a daily basis to the masses. It's all you see on TV... and I don't know how all these liars can report / present it for "consumption" with a straight face.

It's absolutely sickening... and it's just one big lie after another.

Daviewolf83 said:

---

More denominator math for everyone this morning. From the Tweet below, you get the following percentages:

% of fully vaccinated people hospitalized for Covid infection = 0.0038%
% of fully vaccinated people who died from Covid infection = 0.0008%

Of 163 million Americans fully vaccinated as of July 26, there have been 6,239 hospitalizations, including 1,263 deaths in people diagnosed with SARS-CoV-2 infection. In about 25% of cases, patients were asymptomatic or diagnosis appeared secondary to primary cause of the event. pic.twitter.com/fIqQT2Mwdg

— Scott Gottlieb, MD (@ScottGottliebMD) August 1, 2021

---

So many of the docs i talked with this week simply don't understand vaccine hesitancy for the overwhelmingly vast majority of people based on these numbers. How can any reasonable human look at those numbers and argue vaxxes don't work or that they're given for some devious reason? Very powerful information. Is there risk? Absolutely. But much less risk than the continued transmission of the virus... To our economy, our health, our society, and the mental health of the IPS coronavirus thread participants lol

Mormad said:

---

So many of the docs i talked with this week simply don't understand vaccine hesitancy for the overwhelmingly vast majority of people based on these numbers. How can any reasonable human look at those numbers and argue vaxxes don't work or that they're given for some devious reason? Very powerful information. Is there risk? Absolutely. But much less risk than the continued transmission of the virus... To our economy, our health, our society, and the mental health of the IPS coronavirus thread participants lol

---

Very simple...because we don't believe the "data" is real data and is accurate. Not anywhere close to being accurate. We don't trust anything coming from this wholly corrupt Federal Government (and their various arms, such as the CDC) or the far Left communist Establishment media. They have an agenda, and it's not in our best interest. They've been cooking the books on the "data" on everything related to "covid" from the very beginning -- notably, VASTLY inflating the alleged numbers of "cases" and "covid deaths" via the completely bogus PCR test, or just "presuming" that millions of people had "covid" with no testing at all and labeling the person as "having covid" based on them just having a few symptoms (eg, cough, headache).

As for this latest "data" about how vaccines are supposedly "providing great protection against hospitalization and death" and "99% of hospitalizations among unvaccinated", I don't buy that for even one second. The latest data out of England just showed that 56% of deaths from the delta variant were vaccinated people. So which is it? Is the data out of England wrong? Or is the CDC "data" claiming "99% of hospitalizations are the unvaccinated" false?

This whole thing is a fraud, based on hysteria created by vastly inflated numbers of fake "cases" and "covid deaths" and breathless commie Establishment media hyping 24/7/365. In reality, this is just the season flu, with the new boogeyman name "covid 19" slapped on it. People aren't dropping dead in the streets, like some real pandemic. It's mainly elderly people and others dying who already have very serious health problems, as occurs from the regular flu...and with around the same numbers as the typical flu season, after you remove all the inflated fake number of "covid cases".

Mormad said:

---

Daviewolf83 said:

---

More denominator math for everyone this morning. From the Tweet below, you get the following percentages:

% of fully vaccinated people hospitalized for Covid infection = 0.0038%
% of fully vaccinated people who died from Covid infection = 0.0008%

Of 163 million Americans fully vaccinated as of July 26, there have been 6,239 hospitalizations, including 1,263 deaths in people diagnosed with SARS-CoV-2 infection. In about 25% of cases, patients were asymptomatic or diagnosis appeared secondary to primary cause of the event. pic.twitter.com/fIqQT2Mwdg

— Scott Gottlieb, MD (@ScottGottliebMD) August 1, 2021

---

So many of the docs i talked with this week simply don't understand vaccine hesitancy for the overwhelmingly vast majority of people based on these numbers. How can any reasonable human look at those numbers and argue vaxxes don't work or that they're given for some devious reason? Very powerful information. Is there risk? Absolutely. But much less risk than the continued transmission of the virus... To our economy, our health, our society, and the mental health of the IPS coronavirus thread participants lol

---

For me, I just don't see the personal benefit. Call me selfish, but I've never been asked to be responsible for other people's health before, so I struggle to feel the guilt I'm supposed to feel by being unvaccinated. The percentage of people at my age that aren't morbidly obese that experience anything other than cold/flu like symptoms are similar to the statistics in the quoted vaccination data. To add to that, I spent exactly zero days away from work in a manufacturing facility with around 1,000 people. Once I came to the realization that it was safe enough for me to go to work every day, I made the executive decision that it was safe enough for me live my life as normal as ever. So for the past 16+ months, I've done any and everything I would've done without the words COVID19 in my vocabulary. I've went to work, I've went out to eat, I've travelled (by car and plane), I've visited with family and friends, etc. My father, step-mother, BIL, step-father, coworkers and multiple friends have tested positive for COVID19 at some point in the last 16 months. I had an uncle spend almost six weeks in the hospital. I know people in their 40's who spent time in the hospital; one of which all but died. The one factor that tied them together was being morbidly obese. Not overweight, redneck, rural, white American, fast food fat.

All of that to say, now I'm supposed to take a vaccine that is still only approved through an emergency basis? What are the chances that I haven't been exposed to the virus in the last 16+ months? Probably about the same as my chances of experiencing a severe case of COVID19 in my demographic. Practically zero. Show me real data that 30-40 year olds who aren't morbidly obese are driving the hospitalizations and get the vaccine approved without emergency use, then I'll reconsider my position.

Mormad said:

---

Everpack said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Daviewolf83 said:

---

More denominator math for everyone this morning. From the Tweet below, you get the following percentages:

% of fully vaccinated people hospitalized for Covid infection = 0.0038%
% of fully vaccinated people who died from Covid infection = 0.0008%

Of 163 million Americans fully vaccinated as of July 26, there have been 6,239 hospitalizations, including 1,263 deaths in people diagnosed with SARS-CoV-2 infection. In about 25% of cases, patients were asymptomatic or diagnosis appeared secondary to primary cause of the event. pic.twitter.com/fIqQT2Mwdg

— Scott Gottlieb, MD (@ScottGottliebMD) August 1, 2021

---

So many of the docs i talked with this week simply don't understand vaccine hesitancy for the overwhelmingly vast majority of people based on these numbers. How can any reasonable human look at those numbers and argue vaxxes don't work or that they're given for some devious reason? Very powerful information. Is there risk? Absolutely. But much less risk than the continued transmission of the virus... To our economy, our health, our society, and the mental health of the IPS coronavirus thread participants lol

---

For me, I just don't see the personal benefit. Call me selfish, but I've never been asked to be responsible for other people's health before, so I struggle to feel the guilt I'm supposed to feel by being unvaccinated. The percentage of people at my age that aren't morbidly obese that experience anything other than cold/flu like symptoms are similar to the statistics in the quoted vaccination data. To add to that, I spent exactly zero days away from work in a manufacturing facility with around 1,000 people. Once I came to the realization that it was safe enough for me to go to work every day, I made the executive decision that it was safe enough for me live my life as normal as ever. So for the past 16+ months, I've done any and everything I would've done without the words COVID19 in my vocabulary. I've went to work, I've went out to eat, I've travelled (by car and plane), I've visited with family and friends, etc. My father, step-mother, BIL, step-father, coworkers and multiple friends have tested positive for COVID19 at some point in the last 16 months. I had an uncle spend almost six weeks in the hospital. I know people in their 40's who spent time in the hospital; one of which all but died. The one factor that tied them together was being morbidly obese. Not overweight, redneck, rural, white American, fast food fat.

All of that to say, now I'm supposed to take a vaccine that is still only approved through an emergency basis? What are the chances that I haven't been exposed to the virus in the last 16+ months? Probably about the same as my chances of experiencing a severe case of COVID19 in my demographic. Practically zero. Show me real data that 30-40 year olds who aren't morbidly obese are driving the hospitalizations and get the vaccine approved without emergency use, then I'll reconsider my position.

---

That's great, man. Maybe you don't need the vaccine. Maybe i wouldn't either if in your position. But most making a similar decision aren't using such logic, and often when they convince themselves that they are, they're using faulty logic.

And, it seems that we ALL have been asked to be responsible for others' health. You don't think other vaccines, public smoking, driving drunk aren't at least partially for the good of community health?

---

Here's the thing pal. The United States as a country is obese, riddled with heart disease, and diabetes. You're expecting me to care about these people when they have yet to care for themselves? I'm so sick of the "if you don't get the vaccine, you don't care about anyone". Well ****, if I look at the data, the REAL data, Americans didn't give a damn about their diets and exercise until now. The vaccine is just a band aid to the real issue we face in society. Put down the damn fork and go outside

Everpack said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Everpack said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Daviewolf83 said:

---

More denominator math for everyone this morning. From the Tweet below, you get the following percentages:

% of fully vaccinated people hospitalized for Covid infection = 0.0038%
% of fully vaccinated people who died from Covid infection = 0.0008%

Of 163 million Americans fully vaccinated as of July 26, there have been 6,239 hospitalizations, including 1,263 deaths in people diagnosed with SARS-CoV-2 infection. In about 25% of cases, patients were asymptomatic or diagnosis appeared secondary to primary cause of the event. pic.twitter.com/fIqQT2Mwdg

— Scott Gottlieb, MD (@ScottGottliebMD) August 1, 2021

---

So many of the docs i talked with this week simply don't understand vaccine hesitancy for the overwhelmingly vast majority of people based on these numbers. How can any reasonable human look at those numbers and argue vaxxes don't work or that they're given for some devious reason? Very powerful information. Is there risk? Absolutely. But much less risk than the continued transmission of the virus... To our economy, our health, our society, and the mental health of the IPS coronavirus thread participants lol

---

For me, I just don't see the personal benefit. Call me selfish, but I've never been asked to be responsible for other people's health before, so I struggle to feel the guilt I'm supposed to feel by being unvaccinated. The percentage of people at my age that aren't morbidly obese that experience anything other than cold/flu like symptoms are similar to the statistics in the quoted vaccination data. To add to that, I spent exactly zero days away from work in a manufacturing facility with around 1,000 people. Once I came to the realization that it was safe enough for me to go to work every day, I made the executive decision that it was safe enough for me live my life as normal as ever. So for the past 16+ months, I've done any and everything I would've done without the words COVID19 in my vocabulary. I've went to work, I've went out to eat, I've travelled (by car and plane), I've visited with family and friends, etc. My father, step-mother, BIL, step-father, coworkers and multiple friends have tested positive for COVID19 at some point in the last 16 months. I had an uncle spend almost six weeks in the hospital. I know people in their 40's who spent time in the hospital; one of which all but died. The one factor that tied them together was being morbidly obese. Not overweight, redneck, rural, white American, fast food fat.

All of that to say, now I'm supposed to take a vaccine that is still only approved through an emergency basis? What are the chances that I haven't been exposed to the virus in the last 16+ months? Probably about the same as my chances of experiencing a severe case of COVID19 in my demographic. Practically zero. Show me real data that 30-40 year olds who aren't morbidly obese are driving the hospitalizations and get the vaccine approved without emergency use, then I'll reconsider my position.

---

That's great, man. Maybe you don't need the vaccine. Maybe i wouldn't either if in your position. But most making a similar decision aren't using such logic, and often when they convince themselves that they are, they're using faulty logic.

And, it seems that we ALL have been asked to be responsible for others' health. You don't think other vaccines, public smoking, driving drunk aren't at least partially for the good of community health?

---

I'll admit that I struggle with that last paragraph, at least in my own mind. Other vaccines are tried and true and fully approved by all the letters of our govt. I should probably note that I've never taken a flu shot, nor have I ever had the flu. I hate the smell of cigarette smoke, but I'm not a fan of telling private business what they can and can't allow in their establishments (thankful as I may be to not have to smell it in restaurants). Driving drunk is a poor choice for an analogy here, I think. That's an action an individual chooses to take.

Trust me, I hear the argument about small pox and polio vaccines. Correct me if I am wrong, but those vaccines prevented transmission of those viruses. I think that's the other hang up for me with this vaccine, and the current information transmission by our overlords doesn't help any, even though I see the benefits of vaccinating those at serious risk.

---

No offense to you, because clearly you are not unique in your opinionbut reading it reminds me again of how blessed we were to have had The Greatest Generation.

And I'm glad they didn't say they didn't care about Hawaii or Europe, because it really want their job to care about their well being

Jtbridges317 said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Everpack said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Daviewolf83 said:

---

More denominator math for everyone this morning. From the Tweet below, you get the following percentages:

% of fully vaccinated people hospitalized for Covid infection = 0.0038%
% of fully vaccinated people who died from Covid infection = 0.0008%

Of 163 million Americans fully vaccinated as of July 26, there have been 6,239 hospitalizations, including 1,263 deaths in people diagnosed with SARS-CoV-2 infection. In about 25% of cases, patients were asymptomatic or diagnosis appeared secondary to primary cause of the event. pic.twitter.com/fIqQT2Mwdg

— Scott Gottlieb, MD (@ScottGottliebMD) August 1, 2021

---

So many of the docs i talked with this week simply don't understand vaccine hesitancy for the overwhelmingly vast majority of people based on these numbers. How can any reasonable human look at those numbers and argue vaxxes don't work or that they're given for some devious reason? Very powerful information. Is there risk? Absolutely. But much less risk than the continued transmission of the virus... To our economy, our health, our society, and the mental health of the IPS coronavirus thread participants lol

---

For me, I just don't see the personal benefit. Call me selfish, but I've never been asked to be responsible for other people's health before, so I struggle to feel the guilt I'm supposed to feel by being unvaccinated. The percentage of people at my age that aren't morbidly obese that experience anything other than cold/flu like symptoms are similar to the statistics in the quoted vaccination data. To add to that, I spent exactly zero days away from work in a manufacturing facility with around 1,000 people. Once I came to the realization that it was safe enough for me to go to work every day, I made the executive decision that it was safe enough for me live my life as normal as ever. So for the past 16+ months, I've done any and everything I would've done without the words COVID19 in my vocabulary. I've went to work, I've went out to eat, I've travelled (by car and plane), I've visited with family and friends, etc. My father, step-mother, BIL, step-father, coworkers and multiple friends have tested positive for COVID19 at some point in the last 16 months. I had an uncle spend almost six weeks in the hospital. I know people in their 40's who spent time in the hospital; one of which all but died. The one factor that tied them together was being morbidly obese. Not overweight, redneck, rural, white American, fast food fat.

All of that to say, now I'm supposed to take a vaccine that is still only approved through an emergency basis? What are the chances that I haven't been exposed to the virus in the last 16+ months? Probably about the same as my chances of experiencing a severe case of COVID19 in my demographic. Practically zero. Show me real data that 30-40 year olds who aren't morbidly obese are driving the hospitalizations and get the vaccine approved without emergency use, then I'll reconsider my position.

---

That's great, man. Maybe you don't need the vaccine. Maybe i wouldn't either if in your position. But most making a similar decision aren't using such logic, and often when they convince themselves that they are, they're using faulty logic.

And, it seems that we ALL have been asked to be responsible for others' health. You don't think other vaccines, public smoking, driving drunk aren't at least partially for the good of community health?

---

Here's the thing pal. The United States as a country is obese, riddled with heart disease, and diabetes. You're expecting me to care about these people when they have yet to care for themselves? I'm so sick of the "if you don't get the vaccine, you don't care about anyone". Well ****, if I look at the data, the REAL data, Americans didn't give a damn about their diets and exercise until now. The vaccine is just a band aid to the real issue we face in society. Put down the damn fork and go outside

---

Now, THAT I agree with 100%. Your statement goes WELL beyond coronavirus.

I don't think the argument should be "do this for others." But we all want this to go away. What's the best, easiest, fastest way to normalcy and shutting up whatever side of this argument we are tired of hearing? To me it's vaccination based on what we know right now.

Your point, which to me is extremely valid, is that we live in a society with ever increasing poor habits and health. Again, this flies in the face of the at-risk population being a small slice of the pie.

Mormad said:

---

Jtbridges317 said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Everpack said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Daviewolf83 said:

---

More denominator math for everyone this morning. From the Tweet below, you get the following percentages:

% of fully vaccinated people hospitalized for Covid infection = 0.0038%
% of fully vaccinated people who died from Covid infection = 0.0008%

Of 163 million Americans fully vaccinated as of July 26, there have been 6,239 hospitalizations, including 1,263 deaths in people diagnosed with SARS-CoV-2 infection. In about 25% of cases, patients were asymptomatic or diagnosis appeared secondary to primary cause of the event. pic.twitter.com/fIqQT2Mwdg

— Scott Gottlieb, MD (@ScottGottliebMD) August 1, 2021

---

So many of the docs i talked with this week simply don't understand vaccine hesitancy for the overwhelmingly vast majority of people based on these numbers. How can any reasonable human look at those numbers and argue vaxxes don't work or that they're given for some devious reason? Very powerful information. Is there risk? Absolutely. But much less risk than the continued transmission of the virus... To our economy, our health, our society, and the mental health of the IPS coronavirus thread participants lol

---

For me, I just don't see the personal benefit. Call me selfish, but I've never been asked to be responsible for other people's health before, so I struggle to feel the guilt I'm supposed to feel by being unvaccinated. The percentage of people at my age that aren't morbidly obese that experience anything other than cold/flu like symptoms are similar to the statistics in the quoted vaccination data. To add to that, I spent exactly zero days away from work in a manufacturing facility with around 1,000 people. Once I came to the realization that it was safe enough for me to go to work every day, I made the executive decision that it was safe enough for me live my life as normal as ever. So for the past 16+ months, I've done any and everything I would've done without the words COVID19 in my vocabulary. I've went to work, I've went out to eat, I've travelled (by car and plane), I've visited with family and friends, etc. My father, step-mother, BIL, step-father, coworkers and multiple friends have tested positive for COVID19 at some point in the last 16 months. I had an uncle spend almost six weeks in the hospital. I know people in their 40's who spent time in the hospital; one of which all but died. The one factor that tied them together was being morbidly obese. Not overweight, redneck, rural, white American, fast food fat.

All of that to say, now I'm supposed to take a vaccine that is still only approved through an emergency basis? What are the chances that I haven't been exposed to the virus in the last 16+ months? Probably about the same as my chances of experiencing a severe case of COVID19 in my demographic. Practically zero. Show me real data that 30-40 year olds who aren't morbidly obese are driving the hospitalizations and get the vaccine approved without emergency use, then I'll reconsider my position.

---

That's great, man. Maybe you don't need the vaccine. Maybe i wouldn't either if in your position. But most making a similar decision aren't using such logic, and often when they convince themselves that they are, they're using faulty logic.

And, it seems that we ALL have been asked to be responsible for others' health. You don't think other vaccines, public smoking, driving drunk aren't at least partially for the good of community health?

---

Here's the thing pal. The United States as a country is obese, riddled with heart disease, and diabetes. You're expecting me to care about these people when they have yet to care for themselves? I'm so sick of the "if you don't get the vaccine, you don't care about anyone". Well ****, if I look at the data, the REAL data, Americans didn't give a damn about their diets and exercise until now. The vaccine is just a band aid to the real issue we face in society. Put down the damn fork and go outside

---

Now, THAT I agree with 100%. Your statement goes WELL beyond coronavirus.

I don't think the argument should be "do this for others." But we all want this to go away. What's the best, easiest, fastest way to normalcy and shutting up whatever side of this argument we are tired of hearing? To me it's vaccination based on what we know right now.

Your point, which to me is extremely valid, is that we live in a society with ever increasing poor habits and health. Again, this flies in the face of the at-risk population being a small slice of the pie.

---

As we buy our kids another Xbox! It would be a good side-effect of all of this if the primary co-morbidities became talking points for the need to become a healthier nation.

Clearly, right now the focus is more on "who can we blame" and "you can't tell me what to do", but maybe one day

I get the frustration. I think this sht sucks donkey balls. And I'm convinced some here think I'm making arguments I'm not making. And i hate the politics of this pandemic. But we're in this sht show together, and I'm not seeing any way out of it except together.

Packchem91 said:

---

Everpack said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Everpack said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Daviewolf83 said:

---

More denominator math for everyone this morning. From the Tweet below, you get the following percentages:

% of fully vaccinated people hospitalized for Covid infection = 0.0038%
% of fully vaccinated people who died from Covid infection = 0.0008%

Of 163 million Americans fully vaccinated as of July 26, there have been 6,239 hospitalizations, including 1,263 deaths in people diagnosed with SARS-CoV-2 infection. In about 25% of cases, patients were asymptomatic or diagnosis appeared secondary to primary cause of the event. pic.twitter.com/fIqQT2Mwdg

— Scott Gottlieb, MD (@ScottGottliebMD) August 1, 2021

---

So many of the docs i talked with this week simply don't understand vaccine hesitancy for the overwhelmingly vast majority of people based on these numbers. How can any reasonable human look at those numbers and argue vaxxes don't work or that they're given for some devious reason? Very powerful information. Is there risk? Absolutely. But much less risk than the continued transmission of the virus... To our economy, our health, our society, and the mental health of the IPS coronavirus thread participants lol

---

For me, I just don't see the personal benefit. Call me selfish, but I've never been asked to be responsible for other people's health before, so I struggle to feel the guilt I'm supposed to feel by being unvaccinated. The percentage of people at my age that aren't morbidly obese that experience anything other than cold/flu like symptoms are similar to the statistics in the quoted vaccination data. To add to that, I spent exactly zero days away from work in a manufacturing facility with around 1,000 people. Once I came to the realization that it was safe enough for me to go to work every day, I made the executive decision that it was safe enough for me live my life as normal as ever. So for the past 16+ months, I've done any and everything I would've done without the words COVID19 in my vocabulary. I've went to work, I've went out to eat, I've travelled (by car and plane), I've visited with family and friends, etc. My father, step-mother, BIL, step-father, coworkers and multiple friends have tested positive for COVID19 at some point in the last 16 months. I had an uncle spend almost six weeks in the hospital. I know people in their 40's who spent time in the hospital; one of which all but died. The one factor that tied them together was being morbidly obese. Not overweight, redneck, rural, white American, fast food fat.

All of that to say, now I'm supposed to take a vaccine that is still only approved through an emergency basis? What are the chances that I haven't been exposed to the virus in the last 16+ months? Probably about the same as my chances of experiencing a severe case of COVID19 in my demographic. Practically zero. Show me real data that 30-40 year olds who aren't morbidly obese are driving the hospitalizations and get the vaccine approved without emergency use, then I'll reconsider my position.

---

That's great, man. Maybe you don't need the vaccine. Maybe i wouldn't either if in your position. But most making a similar decision aren't using such logic, and often when they convince themselves that they are, they're using faulty logic.

And, it seems that we ALL have been asked to be responsible for others' health. You don't think other vaccines, public smoking, driving drunk aren't at least partially for the good of community health?

---

I'll admit that I struggle with that last paragraph, at least in my own mind. Other vaccines are tried and true and fully approved by all the letters of our govt. I should probably note that I've never taken a flu shot, nor have I ever had the flu. I hate the smell of cigarette smoke, but I'm not a fan of telling private business what they can and can't allow in their establishments (thankful as I may be to not have to smell it in restaurants). Driving drunk is a poor choice for an analogy here, I think. That's an action an individual chooses to take.

Trust me, I hear the argument about small pox and polio vaccines. Correct me if I am wrong, but those vaccines prevented transmission of those viruses. I think that's the other hang up for me with this vaccine, and the current information transmission by our overlords doesn't help any, even though I see the benefits of vaccinating those at serious risk.

---

No offense to you, because clearly you are not unique in your opinionbut reading it reminds me again of how blessed we were to have had The Greatest Generation.

And I'm glad they didn't say they didn't care about Hawaii or Europe, because it really want their job to care about their well being

---

What a ridiculous comparison.

Jtbridges317 said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Jtbridges317 said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Everpack said:

---

Mormad said:

---

Daviewolf83 said:

---

More denominator math for everyone this morning. From the Tweet below, you get the following percentages:

% of fully vaccinated people hospitalized for Covid infection = 0.0038%
% of fully vaccinated people who died from Covid infection = 0.0008%

Of 163 million Americans fully vaccinated as of July 26, there have been 6,239 hospitalizations, including 1,263 deaths in people diagnosed with SARS-CoV-2 infection. In about 25% of cases, patients were asymptomatic or diagnosis appeared secondary to primary cause of the event. pic.twitter.com/fIqQT2Mwdg

— Scott Gottlieb, MD (@ScottGottliebMD) August 1, 2021

---

So many of the docs i talked with this week simply don't understand vaccine hesitancy for the overwhelmingly vast majority of people based on these numbers. How can any reasonable human look at those numbers and argue vaxxes don't work or that they're given for some devious reason? Very powerful information. Is there risk? Absolutely. But much less risk than the continued transmission of the virus... To our economy, our health, our society, and the mental health of the IPS coronavirus thread participants lol

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For me, I just don't see the personal benefit. Call me selfish, but I've never been asked to be responsible for other people's health before, so I struggle to feel the guilt I'm supposed to feel by being unvaccinated. The percentage of people at my age that aren't morbidly obese that experience anything other than cold/flu like symptoms are similar to the statistics in the quoted vaccination data. To add to that, I spent exactly zero days away from work in a manufacturing facility with around 1,000 people. Once I came to the realization that it was safe enough for me to go to work every day, I made the executive decision that it was safe enough for me live my life as normal as ever. So for the past 16+ months, I've done any and everything I would've done without the words COVID19 in my vocabulary. I've went to work, I've went out to eat, I've travelled (by car and plane), I've visited with family and friends, etc. My father, step-mother, BIL, step-father, coworkers and multiple friends have tested positive for COVID19 at some point in the last 16 months. I had an uncle spend almost six weeks in the hospital. I know people in their 40's who spent time in the hospital; one of which all but died. The one factor that tied them together was being morbidly obese. Not overweight, redneck, rural, white American, fast food fat.

All of that to say, now I'm supposed to take a vaccine that is still only approved through an emergency basis? What are the chances that I haven't been exposed to the virus in the last 16+ months? Probably about the same as my chances of experiencing a severe case of COVID19 in my demographic. Practically zero. Show me real data that 30-40 year olds who aren't morbidly obese are driving the hospitalizations and get the vaccine approved without emergency use, then I'll reconsider my position.

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That's great, man. Maybe you don't need the vaccine. Maybe i wouldn't either if in your position. But most making a similar decision aren't using such logic, and often when they convince themselves that they are, they're using faulty logic.

And, it seems that we ALL have been asked to be responsible for others' health. You don't think other vaccines, public smoking, driving drunk aren't at least partially for the good of community health?

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Here's the thing pal. The United States as a country is obese, riddled with heart disease, and diabetes. You're expecting me to care about these people when they have yet to care for themselves? I'm so sick of the "if you don't get the vaccine, you don't care about anyone". Well ****, if I look at the data, the REAL data, Americans didn't give a damn about their diets and exercise until now. The vaccine is just a band aid to the real issue we face in society. Put down the damn fork and go outside

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Now, THAT I agree with 100%. Your statement goes WELL beyond coronavirus.

I don't think the argument should be "do this for others." But we all want this to go away. What's the best, easiest, fastest way to normalcy and shutting up whatever side of this argument we are tired of hearing? To me it's vaccination based on what we know right now.

Your point, which to me is extremely valid, is that we live in a society with ever increasing poor habits and health. Again, this flies in the face of the at-risk population being a small slice of the pie.

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But is the fastest, easiest way the best way? That's what gotten us in so much trouble as a country. Sure, why workout for 3-4 years to improve my overall health when I could just get Lipo?

Instant gratification kills

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Does it kill in a pandemic though? Do we have the luxury of time? Isn't the vaccine the thing that has bought us a little time? If so, for how much longer? This isn't like working out to look good and be healthy. That's what i love too. But does a viral pandemic offer the luxury of time? If you had a mild MI and you were out of shape and a little pudgy, would you take 3-4 yrs to work yourself back to health or would you take ASA, lipitor, and a stent to buy you the time necessary to get back in shape? Sometimes medical treatment type of instant gratification reduces killing imho, otherwise I'm in the wrong career.

So, yes, for now and until things change, the available knowledge suggests the vaccines are the easiest, fastest, safest way out. Should they be mandated? Hell no. Should every human get one? Hell no. Maybe all here who argue against it are the youngest, healthiest, least at-risk mofos alive. That's fantastic. But that doesn't mean those decisions are good for all. (I know you know that, but i felt it should be said)

Thanks for your points, btw. I enjoy discussing them.