Texas government is allowing individuals to assess their own risk tolerance. I presume this will cause all of the people that moved out of California and NY to move back. Haha. Doubt it. God bless Texas.

Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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Texas government is allowing individuals to assess their own risk tolerance. I presume this will cause all of the people that moved out of California and NY to move back. Haha. Doubt it. God bless Texas.

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How do you address the aspect of this 'risk tolerance' that involves risks to others?

This isn't like riding a motorcycle without a helmet, it's more like careless driving. It's not just the careless driver that's put at risk by the act.

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It's nothing at all like careless driving. You're welcome to wear as many masks as you'd like and refrain from going to as many businesses as you choose to keep yourself safe. You don't need government to protect you. You can protect yourself if you've determined you need it.

It's quite telling that people try to equate allowing people to work and live normal lives to a crime. This is the world we live in.

packgrad said:

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Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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Texas government is allowing individuals to assess their own risk tolerance. I presume this will cause all of the people that moved out of California and NY to move back. Haha. Doubt it. God bless Texas.

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How do you address the aspect of this 'risk tolerance' that involves risks to others?

This isn't like riding a motorcycle without a helmet, it's more like careless driving. It's not just the careless driver that's put at risk by the act.

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It's nothing at all like careless driving. You're welcome to wear as many masks as you'd like and refrain from going to as many businesses as you choose to keep yourself safe. You don't need government to protect you. You can protect yourself if you've determined you need it.

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Yeah I can try to avoid harm from careless drivers by driving a safer car or staying home too. I don't need the government to tell me to drive defensively.

We still don't make careless driving legal. It's all downside.

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Stay home. You don't need government to tell other people they don't deserve to be able to make a living because you're scared. That's quite selfish. But please try to equate it to a crime.

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Ain' skeered. I've been out there working every day for the last year just like you.

I've been clear that we should open up but keep masking up.

Nobody's being told they can't make a living in that scenario.

There is no downside to wearing masks until some reasonable benchmark is hit regarding vaccinations or disease control.

PackPA2015 said:

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packgrad said:

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The question is, do you trust most Texans or Americans to make the reasonable decision to wear a mask when out or in enclosed spaces?

I'm not saying you do or don't or that you should or shouldn't, but that is the question that each Governor must answer themselves.

ETA: One of the ladies I graduated with now practices in Dallas and her co-workers and her are very worried about the implications from repealing the mask mandate. They feel a little bit betrayed by Governor Abbott at the moment. We are all mentally exhausted from the pandemic. I would not want anything to happen to delay coming out of it.

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Yeah. I'm sure people that haven't been able to work for a year are exhausted from the pandemic too. Lockdowns didn't work. Masks didn't work. Let people get back to normal. Wear masks if you think they make you safer.

Masks didn't work? We have been through this. I've shown every data and study I can find. If you don't agree that they work from all that, then I'm not sure you will from anything else I share. It has become politicized. I get that, but you cannot argue against the data.

Lockdowns are a whole different story. I don't really see anyone, including myself, arguing against opening businesses in this forum.

Biden is against removal of the mask mandate in those states, but he is ok with letting in illegal immigrants with covid and releasing them.

packgrad said:

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PackPA2015 said:

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packgrad said:

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The question is, do you trust most Texans or Americans to make the reasonable decision to wear a mask when out or in enclosed spaces?

I'm not saying you do or don't or that you should or shouldn't, but that is the question that each Governor must answer themselves.

ETA: One of the ladies I graduated with now practices in Dallas and her co-workers and her are very worried about the implications from repealing the mask mandate. They feel a little bit betrayed by Governor Abbott at the moment. We are all mentally exhausted from the pandemic. I would not want anything to happen to delay coming out of it.

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Yeah. I'm sure people that haven't been able to work for a year are exhausted from the pandemic too. Lockdowns didn't work. Masks didn't work. Let people get back to normal. Wear masks if you think they make you safer.

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By we, I meant Americans, not just healthcare workers. We are all exhausted.

I have shown every study and data point I can find to show that masks do lower transmission and you are still saying that masks don't work. I don't think any other source is going to change your mind on that point. Just know that masks do in fact work. It has become highly politicized. I get that, but you cannot argue with the data.

As far as lockdowns, I don't see anyone on this forum arguing against opening businesses. We are all for that. Most of us just believe it is too early to not require masks in public spaces. We are still in the pandemic. Studies were showing that Dallas would be at a tolerable transmission level by June. Why would you want to risk delaying that by repealing the mask mandate? Is a few more months of wearing a mask worse than dealing with the pandemic for those months? To me, no.

packgrad said:

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PackPA2015 said:

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packgrad said:

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PackPA2015 said:

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packgrad said:

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The question is, do you trust most Texans or Americans to make the reasonable decision to wear a mask when out or in enclosed spaces?

I'm not saying you do or don't or that you should or shouldn't, but that is the question that each Governor must answer themselves.

ETA: One of the ladies I graduated with now practices in Dallas and her co-workers and her are very worried about the implications from repealing the mask mandate. They feel a little bit betrayed by Governor Abbott at the moment. We are all mentally exhausted from the pandemic. I would not want anything to happen to delay coming out of it.

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Yeah. I'm sure people that haven't been able to work for a year are exhausted from the pandemic too. Lockdowns didn't work. Masks didn't work. Let people get back to normal. Wear masks if you think they make you safer.

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By we, I meant Americans, not just healthcare workers. We are all exhausted.

I have shown every study and data point I can find to show that masks do lower transmission and you are still saying that masks don't work. I don't think any other source is going to change your mind on that point. Just know that masks do in fact work. It has become highly politicized. I get that, but you cannot argue with the data.

As far as lockdowns, I don't see anyone on this forum arguing against opening businesses. We are all for that. Most of us just believe it is too early to not require masks in public spaces. We are still in the pandemic. Studies were showing that Dallas would be at a tolerable transmission level by June. Why would you want to risk delaying that by repealing the mask mandate? Is a few more months of wearing a mask worse than dealing with the pandemic for those months? To me, no.

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That's great. I disagree. And I haven't read your studies so save the holy roller routine. Texas governor also disagrees that it's too early. Apparently his studies have reached a different outcome about tolerable transmission levels.

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First, sorry about the multiple replies to your post. My wifi is for some reason severely spotty tonight and I didn't think it went through.

I'm really not trying to be a holy roller. I have this discussion daily with patients and I am really tired of discussing whether masks work or not. The data shows over and over again, whether that's epidemiological or in randomized controlled trials, that masks work. If you dislike them for political reasons, that's perfectly fine. They absolutely have been politicized, but say that. Don't say they don't work, because it's just untrue.

I have no idea what data Abbott is looking at. I do know the epidemiologists in his state studying COVID-19 transmission in real time are saying this was too early. I do know healthcare providers in his state are frustrated knowing that life was going to likely be back to normal in only a short few months with a mask mandate. My personal opinion is that Abbott was trying to score political points after his state was publicly humiliated, for right or wrong, over the energy crisis.

Masks may work (or at least SOME masks may provide limited efficacy in a controlled environment or 'cherry picked' time frame), but 'Mask mandates' don't work in the real world.

I could also shows you countless charts showing neighboring counties, cities, and states with similar geographic, climate, and demographic profiles and places without mandates did the same or better with cases than those WITH mandates. Or the last 100 years of research before things changed in 2020.

Whether it is a mechanical issue with dispersion of the virus since most Americans are wearing 'low quality' masks just to meet the definition.

Or maybe people wearing masks over estimate their efficacy and engage in more risky behavior BECAUSE they feel protected.

If we can agree on one thing, we should be able to agree that if they provide SOME protection, the level of protection is over promised and minimal at best.

The belief in the mask is SO strong and its efficacy is SO overestimated that it is damaging. Because we have over a years worth of 'real world' data showing in comparable locales mandates didn't have an impact.

And whatever efficacy the mask has on a micro level is lost on a macro level when mask mandates are enacted. The real world isn't lab controlled, but I would think that instead of yelling 'DATA AND SCIENCE!!!' maybe people should be actually researching why IF masks appear to work in a lab, the empirical evidence is that mask mandates don't. Start looking at the complex variables so that next time the guidance can be more direct so they WILL have an ACTUAL impact not just a THEORETICAL one.

But at this point, the battle lines are drawn, and the other side chooses to ignore a years worth of empirical evidence that even IF masks work, MASK MANDATES don't.

Mask wearing can continue and people should feel free to as individuals should be encouraged to take all levels of precaution as we get through these last few weeks as the season wanes and the vaccines are distributed.

Does this mean I don't wear a mask in order to participate right now. I wear a mask and don't complain about it other than the odd message board post trying to point out that this issue is more grey than black and white.

But the shaming and rooting for these states to fail because they don't enact the mandates as you see fit needs to stop.

We have examples of all over the U.S. and world, and when you focus on comparable climates and demographics, government restrictions have been colossal failures.

School closures, business closures, mask mandates, travel restrictions, congregate living procedures.... all to make people sleep better at night while doing more harm than good.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a second topic, we have 1000 or so contract tracers doing no actual good. Why didn't we take 50 of them and have them figure out where the ~40 cases of flu came from this year? That is right, NC has only had about 40 identified cases of the flu.

Viral interference is fascinating and we are provided an amazing opportunity to try and figure something out. We should be deep diving on every single person in NC who actually showed up with a flu variant this year and trying to figure out just where the hell it came from. At this point that would be the better benefit to broader society and our understanding of viral dynamics.

But I digress....

Wayland said:

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Masks may work (or at least SOME masks may provide limited efficacy in a controlled environment or 'cherry picked' time frame), but 'Mask mandates' don't work in the real world.

I could also shows you countless charts showing neighboring counties, cities, and states with similar geographic, climate, and demographic profiles and places without mandates did the same or better with cases than those WITH mandates. Or the last 100 years of research before things changed in 2020.

Whether it is a mechanical issue with dispersion of the virus since most Americans are wearing 'low quality' masks just to meet the definition.

Or maybe people wearing masks over estimate their efficacy and engage in more risky behavior BECAUSE they feel protected.

If we can agree on one thing, we should be able to agree that if they provide SOME protection, the level of protection is over promised and minimal at best.

The belief in the mask is SO strong and its efficacy is SO overestimated that it is damaging. Because we have over a years worth of 'real world' data showing in comparable locales mandates didn't have an impact.

And whatever efficacy the mask has on a micro level is lost on a macro level when mask mandates are enacted. The real world isn't lab controlled, but I would think that instead of yelling 'DATA AND SCIENCE!!!' maybe people should be actually researching why IF masks appear to work in a lab, the empirical evidence is that mask mandates don't. Start looking at the complex variables so that next time the guidance can be more direct so they WILL have an ACTUAL impact not just a THEORETICAL one.

But at this point, the battle lines are drawn, and the other side chooses to ignore a years worth of empirical evidence that even IF masks work, MASK MANDATES don't.

Mask wearing can continue and people should feel free to as individuals should be encouraged to take all levels of precaution as we get through these last few weeks as the season wanes and the vaccines are distributed.

Does this mean I don't wear a mask in order to participate right now. I wear a mask and don't complain about it other than the odd message board post trying to point out that this issue is more grey than black and white.

But the shaming and rooting for these states to fail because they don't enact the mandates as you see fit needs to stop.

We have examples of all over the U.S. and world, and when you focus on comparable climates and demographics, government restrictions have been colossal failures.

School closures, business closures, mask mandates, travel restrictions, congregate living procedures.... all to make people sleep better at night while doing more harm than good.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a second topic, we have 1000 or so contract tracers doing no actual good. Why didn't we take 50 of them and have them figure out where the ~40 cases of flu came from this year? That is right, NC has only had about 40 identified cases of the flu.

Viral interference is fascinating and we are provided an amazing opportunity to try and figure something out. We should be deep diving on every single person in NC who actually showed up with a flu variant this year and trying to figure out just where the hell it came from. At this point that would be the better benefit to broader society and our understanding of viral dynamics.

But I digress....

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It's refreshing to read smart and thoughtful posts. I get better news/ debate/ critical thought from this message board than I could ever get from any news outlet or social media outlet.

I appreciate your point, since you seem to have based it on data that you have reviewed.

However, I have not seen that data. There are extreme limitations in our studies so far which makes sense. It is really hard in the real world to measure mask mandates, compliance, and human behavior in general.


Here are 2 studies in particular that show that mask mandates lowered transmission levels.
Community Use Of Face Masks And COVID-19: Evidence From A Natural Experiment Of State Mandates In The US

Trends in County-Level COVID-19 Incidence in Counties With and Without a Mask Mandate Kansas, June 1August 23, 2020

Now, to your point, masks mandates are not 100% protective. You nor I should expect them to be. This observational study noticed that in counties that had mask mandates also had worse outbreaks. Italy had a mask mandate and still had a surge. However, numbers were surging already from the time the mandates were put into place (a little too late in other words). So can we truly say that the mask mandates did not work? It is unethical to use a control group, people not wearing masks, when we do already know they reduce transmission. Now, human behavior with not wearing a good mask or wearing them correctly is absolutely an issue. I do truly believe that mask mandates encourage enough people to wear them correctly enough to continue to decrease transmission and thus variants while improving vaccination rates.
Mask Mandates: Do They Work? Are There Better Ways to Control COVID-19 Outbreaks?


Now, if you have some other data that I have not seen, I honestly would love to look at it. I just don't think we can effectively say masks mandates are not effective. I really think our nation would be in a much worse place without them at least at a local/county level and possibly at a state level.