Coronavirus

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Civilized
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WarrenPeace said:

Mormad said:

cowboypack02 said:

WarrenPeace said:

Hopefully my 6 year old won't have to continue to wear a mask to play soccer because that's about the stupidest s*** I've ever seen.

And also, I've already had Covid. Why the hell do I have to wear a mask?


They are telling people who have already had the vaccine that they need to continue to wear mask.


Kids playing soccer in masks is ridiculous

I think there are at least 3 reasonable thoughts behind masking after infection or vaccination, but the risk to others once you've had either is so small. At least now they're admitting you shouldn't have to quarantine after exposure if you're vaccinated, so there is predictably a slight shift toward (a new) normalcy.


There may be but my opinion is those who have a real fear of something bad happening to them should mask up. Wear all the masks you want to, but me and my family? We've all had it with hardly any symptoms. I have nothing to fear with Covid. Why do I have to live like this?

By 'have to live like this' do you mean why should you have to mask up after having COVID?
Civilized
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Op-Ed: Forget Second COVID Vaccine Doses for Now

Sorry if this had been previously posted, but this is the most convincing argument I've read to-date for substantially delaying the second vaccine dose.

If the author's data is correct, it seems undeniably prudent.
Daviewolf83
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Civilized said:

Op-Ed: Forget Second COVID Vaccine Doses for Now

Sorry if this had been previously posted, but this is the most convincing argument I've read to-date for substantially delaying the second vaccine dose.

If the author's data is correct, it seems undeniably prudent.
Pfizer is submitting data to the FDA, suggesting the timing between the first and second dose can be extended. It will be interesting to see if the FDA adopts this approach and revises their guidelines. If they did, it would greatly increase the ability to get first doses into arms.

This is the approach the UK is taking and it is the key reason why they are able to exceed the US in getting first doses into arms. I believe they are waiting 12 weeks between the first and second dose. I talked to a coworker yesterday about what the UK is doing. He lives in England and according to him, they are now vaccinating people who are 55 and older. The US is still only vaccinating 65+ in the US, plus teachers and first responders.
statefan91
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Mormad
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Civilized said:

WarrenPeace said:

Mormad said:

cowboypack02 said:

WarrenPeace said:

Hopefully my 6 year old won't have to continue to wear a mask to play soccer because that's about the stupidest s*** I've ever seen.

And also, I've already had Covid. Why the hell do I have to wear a mask?


They are telling people who have already had the vaccine that they need to continue to wear mask.


Kids playing soccer in masks is ridiculous

I think there are at least 3 reasonable thoughts behind masking after infection or vaccination, but the risk to others once you've had either is so small. At least now they're admitting you shouldn't have to quarantine after exposure if you're vaccinated, so there is predictably a slight shift toward (a new) normalcy.


There may be but my opinion is those who have a real fear of something bad happening to them should mask up. Wear all the masks you want to, but me and my family? We've all had it with hardly any symptoms. I have nothing to fear with Covid. Why do I have to live like this?

By 'have to live like this' do you mean why should you have to mask up after having COVID?


I think that's exactly what he means, and a huge part of me completely agrees with his sentiment. It seems somewhat silly to me, on the surface, to mask all the time if vaccinated or recently recovered. At least now "they" are admitting vaccinated people can hang together without masking. Again, a slight shift towards a new normal.

Quickly, here is why i think masking is still a reasonable request (but not policy) in this scenario (happy for others to agree to disagree):

1. Americans, once they see some (those with antibodies) not masking, will stop masking themselves and increase risk to the general population. This is the weakest argument, but unfortunately our society tends to be less socially responsible. It is what it is.

2. Variants, until completely understood, should be presumed to increase community risk. Vax and previous infection likely provides enough protection to keep you from getting really sick, but will it prevent infection and transmission enough to protect those around you? Don't know until we know.

3. The vaccines are only 95% effective and immunity may wane after previous infection and likely varies person to person. So there is still SOME risk of getting infected/ re-infected, and though you're likely protected from severe disease and maybe even reduced transmission, the risk to others isn't zero.

Edited to add: I'm so sick of wearing a mask i can't stand it. I can wear one all day operating on people and it never phases me. But wearing one in public and around the hospital is wearing on me and my colleagues and i find it frustrating and suffocating at times.
TheStorm
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cowboypack02 said:

TheStorm said:

cowboypack02 said:

Got my second Moderna vaccine shot Saturday afternoon. I was fine until about 11 on Sunday morning. My temp ran between 102 and 103 for the most part with it spiking at 104.1 yesterday morning. Had a fever, chills a horrible headache and stomach issues for the better part of 24 hours. I took a cold bath about 10 yesterday morning and then went back to bed. When I woke up about 3 yesterday afternoon I felt fine.

Just a bit tired now....but I haven't felt that bad since I had my kidney stones in 2010
Just curious... what qualified you to get the vaccine this early into the process? Thanks.


Honestly....dumb luck

Vidant is started doing a vaccination clinic on a Saturday last month. At the end of the day when all of the appointments were finished and there were shots left over the staff started calling people they thought would come and get shots. My mother in law was working and called me. Asked if I wanted a shot, I told her I did so she told me that I had 15 minutes to get down there. I showed up and they gave me a shot
Thanks, I was starting to wonder if I wasn't paying enough attention to its availability yet (I would think I'm still 2-3 months out agewise)... that makes me feel better.
PackPA2015
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Mormad said:

Civilized said:

WarrenPeace said:

Mormad said:

cowboypack02 said:

WarrenPeace said:

Hopefully my 6 year old won't have to continue to wear a mask to play soccer because that's about the stupidest s*** I've ever seen.

And also, I've already had Covid. Why the hell do I have to wear a mask?


They are telling people who have already had the vaccine that they need to continue to wear mask.


Kids playing soccer in masks is ridiculous

I think there are at least 3 reasonable thoughts behind masking after infection or vaccination, but the risk to others once you've had either is so small. At least now they're admitting you shouldn't have to quarantine after exposure if you're vaccinated, so there is predictably a slight shift toward (a new) normalcy.


There may be but my opinion is those who have a real fear of something bad happening to them should mask up. Wear all the masks you want to, but me and my family? We've all had it with hardly any symptoms. I have nothing to fear with Covid. Why do I have to live like this?

By 'have to live like this' do you mean why should you have to mask up after having COVID?


I think that's exactly what he means, and a huge part of me completely agrees with his sentiment. It seems somewhat silly to me, on the surface, to mask all the time if vaccinated or recently recovered. At least now "they" are admitting vaccinated people can hang together without masking. Again, a slight shift towards a new normal.

Quickly, here is why i think masking is still a reasonable request (but not policy) in this scenario (happy for others to agree to disagree):

1. Americans, once they see some (those with antibodies) not masking, will stop masking themselves and increase risk to the general population. This is the weakest argument, but unfortunately our society tends to be less socially responsible. It is what it is.

2. Variants, until completely understood, should be presumed to increase community risk. Vax and previous infection likely provides enough protection to keep you from getting really sick, but will it prevent infection and transmission enough to protect those around you? Don't know until we know.

3. The vaccines are only 95% effective and immunity may wane after previous infection and likely varies person to person. So there is still SOME risk of getting infected/ re-infected, and though you're likely protected from severe disease and maybe even reduced transmission, the risk to others isn't zero.
Agree wholeheartedly with your points here. I think we are getting close to not having mask policies/requests, but until we know for sure about the variants and look at more data from vaccinations, I think it is a reasonable request to continue masking for now. I think others have brought up, but some may wear masks for winters to come based on the seasonality theory that there is evidence for. If it prevents me from getting flu or a cold or the stomach virus working with patients as it has this year, I am okay with that.

Interesting to consider.
Mormad
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Had this discussion with some pulmonologists the other day, and they agree. The reduction in flu is largely presumed to be because of these actions we're taking, and they were thinking many may opt to mask in public during flu season from here out.
wilmwolf
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I just wonder at what point do we reach acceptable risk levels that we tolerate like with other things. The Rona is never going away, it will be with us forever. Can we, at some point, reach a level where the collective public is ok with the risks, and how much other societal damage is done by that point.
statefan91
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wilmwolf80 said:

I just wonder at what point do we reach acceptable risk levels that we tolerate like with other things. The Rona is never going away, it will be with us forever. Can we, at some point, reach a level where the collective public is ok with the risks, and how much other societal damage is done by that point.
Probably late summer when the population that wants to get a vaccine can get one. Would also guess positivity rates would be in the 1-2% range at most
wilmwolf
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Isn't it also possible that masking all the time actually would adversely affect your immune system's ability to fight infections? Nobody wants to get the flu or a cold or whatever, but isn't it beneficial for your body to fight off those infections on occasion?
Mormad
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wilmwolf80 said:

I just wonder at what point do we reach acceptable risk levels that we tolerate like with other things. The Rona is never going away, it will be with us forever. Can we, at some point, reach a level where the collective public is ok with the risks, and how much other societal damage is done by that point.


Yep. At some point this too will run its course.
PackPA2015
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wilmwolf80 said:

Isn't it also possible that masking all the time actually would adversely affect your immune system's ability to fight infections? Nobody wants to get the flu or a cold or whatever, but isn't it beneficial for your body to fight off those infections on occasion?
That's what vaccines are for .

Not quite how the immune system works. It remembers many, many things for long periods of time, so just because you haven't had the flu in a long time, with or without masking, doesn't mean the next time it will be a serious case of it. The immune system is always working when you are out and touch public items or when you hug someone, it is always fighting off those small encounters and placing that information in the memory bank for later. So you are always still getting exposed to something that the immune system is working on. It is just nice to not have to deal with the flu or other illnesses for once. Plus, most of our immune system is formed as an infant and into early childhood. The impacts later in life are much less significant than they would be for children. But even if they are in contact with any other individuals not normally in the home, they are still being exposed to many germs that their immune system recognizes, destroys, and remembers.
Colonel Armstrong
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I find it interesting that anyone can look at the data we've seen and conclude that masks or restrictions on businesses had any positive impact. Quite possibly the biggest public policy failing in quite some time.
PackPA2015
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King Leary said:

I find it interesting that anyone can look at the data we've seen and conclude that masks or restrictions on businesses had any positive impact. Quite possibly the biggest public policy failing in quite some time.
Businesses, eh, probably not that much of an impact as far as virus reduction. Masks, most definitely, have had an impact. That you cannot deny.
Daviewolf83
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Staff
All good points and I appreciate the civil discussion. Here are my basic thoughts:

1. When people hear Dr. Fauci (and others) say we will likely be masking into 2022, you get strong reactions and you have seen this start to play out on social media over the past few days. As I have mentioned before, Dr. Fauci's method of messaging this is very bad. I think I understand what he is doing and quite frankly, he needs to stop doing it. I really believe there are people on the fence as to if they should vaccinated and if you tell them you can not go to movies, you have to continue to social distance, and you are likely going to wear a mask until 2022, they will decide it is not worth it to get vaccinated.

2. I agree with Mormad that some people who are still waiting to get vaccinated may decide to just stop wearing masks and return to normal, when they see those who have been vaccinated (or previously infected) resuming normal activities. Basically, we are keeping the limitations in place for everyone because we do not trust others to act responsibly. It makes sense, but it also leads to distrust of those who are making the rules. At some point, we have to get to the point where those who are vaccinated can act normally. We have had bad messaging, since this started a year ago and it has only served to make many people distrustful of what they are being asked to do.

3. Based on the studies and reports I have seen in the past couple of weeks with regards to the ability of the vaccines to not only elicit strong antibody and T-Cell reactions, but to also significantly reduce transmission, it seems very likely we can begin to allow those who are vaccinated to resume normal activities. I have posted many times that I believe we will be dealing with the coronavirus and cases of infection for years to come. The key is to get the levels down to something we consider acceptable as a society. What is this level? I believe it is on the same order of magnitude as yearly flu. We, as a society, have accepted a certain level of infections and deaths (not an insignificant number) on a yearly basis and the coronavirus should be no exception.

4. As to wearing masks during flu season, it makes sense for people who are sick. I know in previous posts it was mentioned this was a practice in Asian countries (particularly Japan) and it is true, but only for those who are sick. I know this first hand, having traveled to Japan a couple of times a year for many years. Healthy people in those countries are not the ones wearing masks in public. It is the sick people who are wearing masks. So, as we approach the cold and flu seasons in the coming years, if sick people want to wear a mask in public to protect others - fine. We should not continue to expect healthy people to wear a mask during those seasons. It is not something I intend to do.

5. There are real costs to keeping things locked down for many more months. These costs are not only economic, but they directly effect people's mental health. I just got off a call with my manager and all of the other managers who work for him. We are very concerned about our direct employees and their mental health and morale. We are trying to come up with ways to relieve some of the stress they face with working from home. The lack of direct social interaction is a real problem. Zoom calls can only go so far in helping with social interaction. I have recently started to read some articles on the downsides people are starting to experience after a year of working from home. For some people, it is fine, but for many people, they must have direct, daily face-to-face interaction with their co-workers.

6. Hopefully, in the Fall sports and college football return to normal. I know this is the hope of my son and his teammates. You can not ask them to go through another season like the one they just went through. I can not describe how hard it was for them and I can not imagine they would willingly do it again. One key reason my son decided to return for his fifth year of football was due to the fact that he wanted to have a more normal season. He did not want this last year to be his final memory of playing college football. He does not want to be tested over 60 times again. He does not want to have to wear a mask for all weigh-lifting/conditioning, practices, and games. He told me he wants to have a normal Senior Day next November, where we can be on the field with him and he does not have to wear a mask for his picture.

Bottom line, at some point we are going to have to start returning to more normal lives. People will continue to contract the virus, even after wide-spread vaccinations. It will be scary and a lot of people will continue to fear this virus for years to come. Personally, I believe we should continue to mask and social distance until we get to a point where at least half of the eligible population is vaccinated (we are close to 20% of those having their first dose right now), which is likely to be in mid to late Summer. At that point, open up and get back to normal. Stop wearing masks. Return to your in-person jobs. Attend sporting events, movies, and concerts. Do not over-react when you continue to see and hear of people becoming infected. It will happen and it will not mean we have to shut everything down again.

PackPA2015
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All fair points Davie.

At first, I was thinking fall for when things return to normal, but the vaccines seemed to have sped up that timeline. I am now thinking more summertime.

I disagree with the WSJ opinion piece about it being in April. I don't think the data suggests that and I think he made many assumptions throughout his reasoning.
statefan91
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I am so ready for movie theaters to be back in full swing. They've been open since October but not much worth seeing, and Cooper's curfew has kept them from being open for late night shows I would go to normally. When I had AMC A List in 2019, I saw 50+ movies over the course of the year.
Daviewolf83
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Staff
PackPA2015 said:

All fair points Davie.

At first, I was thinking fall for when things return to normal, but the vaccines seemed to have sped up that timeline. I am now thinking more summertime.

I disagree with the WSJ opinion piece about it being in April. I don't think the data suggests that and I think he made many assumptions throughout his reasoning.
I agree on the WSJ piece. I think you are referring to the article by the doctor from Johns Hopkins. A friend of mine (he is a UNC professor) posted it on Facebook last week and I commented back that I did not agree with the doctor's assessment. I think it was too aggressive in its timeline for returning to normal.

I decided not to post it on this thread, since I thought it was bad messaging. On one extreme you have the WSJ article and on the other you have Dr. Fauci. The truth likely lies somewhere in the middle and this seems to fall in the Summer timeframe.
Colonel Armstrong
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PackPA2015 said:

King Leary said:

I find it interesting that anyone can look at the data we've seen and conclude that masks or restrictions on businesses had any positive impact. Quite possibly the biggest public policy failing in quite some time.
Businesses, eh, probably not that much of an impact as far as virus reduction. Masks, most definitely, have had an impact. That you cannot deny.


There's very little correlation across the USA and NC that show any reduction in Covid spread when mask mandates have been enacted.

Looking in Europe, the countries that have been hit the hardest are countries with the highest percentage of mask wearers.

No peer reviewed scientific study supports that wearing these flimsy cloth masks does anything other than allow people to virtue signal.
PackPA2015
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King Leary said:

PackPA2015 said:

King Leary said:

I find it interesting that anyone can look at the data we've seen and conclude that masks or restrictions on businesses had any positive impact. Quite possibly the biggest public policy failing in quite some time.
Businesses, eh, probably not that much of an impact as far as virus reduction. Masks, most definitely, have had an impact. That you cannot deny.


There's very little correlation across the USA and NC that show any reduction in Covid spread when mask mandates have been enacted.

Looking in Europe, the countries that have been hit the hardest are countries with the highest percentage of mask wearers.

No peer reviewed scientific study supports that wearing these flimsy cloth masks does anything other than allow people to virtue signal.


Oh boy. So the reason there are no peer reviewed studies is because we are living out the study as we speak. Randomized control trials are going on currently that all show evidence that masks lower transmission. They are just not complete and thus need time to be peer reviewed. I've attached an article that discusses the ample amount of evidence we have that masks are much more than virtue signaling. We have years and years of evidence for other viruses and bacteria already, hence why they have been used in the medical field previously. You will not see any medical society or academy deny the evidence for masks. The European countries whom did not have mask mandates controlled outbreaks quickly via other measures and thus the mandate was not needed. Those who did mandate masks had significant outbreaks and needed more control. Outbreaks did improve after enforcing the mandates. This is shown in article 2.


https://www.idsociety.org/covid-19-real-time-learning-network/infection-prevention/masks-and-face-coverings-for-the-public/

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2020-opinion-coronavirus-global-face-mask-adoption/
910wolf
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Man I really want to throw my mask away by Memorial Day. People need a normal summer
Colonel Armstrong
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I could be reading the article wrong but with p value way above .05, those findings aren't statistically significant. And there are other flaws with that study.

And it doesn't matter if masks worked for diseases in the past, because they don't work for COVID-19. And that's all that matters.
Civilized
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PackPA2015 said:

King Leary said:

I find it interesting that anyone can look at the data we've seen and conclude that masks or restrictions on businesses had any positive impact. Quite possibly the biggest public policy failing in quite some time.
Businesses, eh, probably not that much of an impact as far as virus reduction. Masks, most definitely, have had an impact. That you cannot deny.

Completely agree. If the next pandemic behaves similarly, I'd advocate strongly for masking and distancing early and uniformly, and keeping everything open that we can.

The behaviors that change the trajectory of this thing are micro behaviors (distancing, masking, hand-washing, vaccinating) not blanket macro solutions (shutting down large parts of society, killing the food and bev industry, stopping people from gathering at some reasonable capacity at outdoor events, etc.)
PackPA2015
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The reason it matters is we know masks work against similar viruses that we have evidence for from the past. If transmission is similar, protection is also likely similar. If you need another resource, here is another one looking at epidemiological data. This will be my last post on the subject, so I don't clog up the thread. You don't have to agree with me, but you are wrong. Masks do work specifically for COVID-19 and I would hate to see where we would be without them.

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent
Civilized
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Completely agree Mormad.

I'm honestly ambivalent about mask-wearing. It just doesn't bother me that much.

To me, "normal" has a lot less to do with mask-wearing than it does the activities.

Full-family holidays, flying again, attending baseball games, tailgating at football, gathering with family inside without much worry, kids back in school full time, enjoying dining in restaurants (even if a little more considerate of inside/outside, etc.) feels "back to normal" to me whether or not I'm wearing a mask sometimes/most of the time while I'm doing them.

I understand it's symbolic for some, and for some people it really just irritates the piss out of them.

I will be glad when it's so far gone that we don't even need to debate masks anymore I'll tell you that.
Colonel Armstrong
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For me mask wearing is symbolic of all the misguided restrictions that have been in place for a year that have had zero net positive impact.

The sooner we get rid of masks and people still see the hospitalizations and death rates decline, the sooner we get back to normal. Because even the most corrupt politicians and media members won't be able to be able to deny us at that point.
WPNfamily
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ncsualum05 said:

WPNfamily said:

My dad, 73 and very over weight, has had quadruple bypass, had COVID back in December. Got shot one of Pfizer in mid January and the second mid February. He had zero side effects from either does of vaccination. I was thrilled for him.

My wife, 37, runs 6 miles a day, has a 6 pack, has had a terrible time with COVID. She tested positive 3 weeks ago and still has shortness of breath, chest/back pain and pressure, and literally can't lay flat now without too much chest pressure. She wakes up at night and freaks me out because she can't breath. Chest x ray and CT's are clear. It is amazing how random COVID is.

The vaccine news continues to be very encouraging. My company is making vaccine privacy booths for 1,500 drug store locations currently. I am happy we are finally able to do something positive for the efforts to get shots in arms. After having COVID and seeing my wife now, I can tell you I am extra motivated to do what we can to get shots in arms.
Hope your wife feels better soon... and congrats on being married to a woman with a 6 pack. That's impressive for 37 especially if you have kids.


Bro it is the best sales job of my life!
PackPA2015
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Local story here. She apparently requested loans for her personal online business that closed in 2019. Falsified documents in order to receive the loan, then spent all of the money at various stores throughout NC. That's one way to stimulate the economy...

Charlotte Woman Spent 250K of Covid Relief Loan
statefan91
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Civilized
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King Leary said:

For me mask wearing is symbolic of all the misguided restrictions that have been in place for a year that have had zero net positive impact.

The sooner we get rid of masks and people still see the hospitalizations and death rates decline, the sooner we get back to normal. Because even the most corrupt politicians and media members won't be able to be able to deny us at that point.

I hear you man.

I have an unhealthy obsession at this point with being able to pound some dogs and drink a couple of tall beers at a State or Bulls baseball game. I really want one of those foot-long dogs from the Bulls game that they also put pulled pork on.

ETA: ...with slaw and extra mustard...

We all respond to symbolism, sometimes just to different symbols.
cowboypack02
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statefan91 said:


I didn't even know that half of these restrictions were in place......
metcalfmafia
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cowboypack02 said:

statefan91 said:


I didn't even know that half of these restrictions were in place......


I didn't know there was a curfew at 10pm.
packgrad
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metcalfmafia said:

cowboypack02 said:

statefan91 said:


I didn't even know that half of these restrictions were in place......


I didn't know there was a curfew at 10pm.


A curfew that wasn't enforced and provided no benefit. A curfew in title only.
PackPA2015
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packgrad said:

metcalfmafia said:

cowboypack02 said:

statefan91 said:


I didn't even know that half of these restrictions were in place......


I didn't know there was a curfew at 10pm.


A curfew that wasn't enforced and provided no benefit. A curfew in title only.
Yep. My opinion is that the curfew was Cooper's warning shot when cases shot up at the time. Flexing his power muscles saying I can do more if you guys don't get it together.
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