https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/12/09/1013538/what-are-the-ingredients-of-pfizers-covid-19-vaccine/?utm_medium=tr_social&utm_campaign=site_visitor.unpaid.engagement&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1620256793

Surely you aren't implying that one can't believe that the way the government handles the pandemic is poor and yet believe covid isn't a charade with factitious data. Those are 2 separable arguments in my mind.

Well at least we can agree the government and the media suck.

You said covid is real, which means not a charade, and therefore you actually don't agree fully with GP.

My question was not about the message. I may not think all the messaging is as nefarious as some of you, but yeah it's sucked. When a dude says this pandemic is a charade with falsified data and isn't as prevalent and dangerous as is being messaged, i question where he gets his enlightened evidence other than opinion and tweets from people who have no more ability or experience to interpret cdc or other data than they do how to manage a covid patient on a vent. GP is pretty bright and is good at his craft (arguing his side) and usually comes up with stuff, so i think his answer will be interesting if nothing else.

Personally, I don't think lifting the restrictions or mask mandates should be tied to a certain % of vaccinations. It should be tied to a timeframe from when the vaccine was made available to everyone. Once the vaccine was made available to everyone, I'd give them 2-3 weeks to schedule the first dose, 2 weeks between shots and then 2 weeks post second dose to be fully protected. Since NC made the shot available to all people I think around April 7th, we should be completely open with no mask mandates by June 1st.

you would argue the fact that the vaccine distribution had nothing to do with Trump because you are anti-Trump

No reason having a discussion with you.

You have proven this.

I don't have a clue what that means.

I just know it's silly to insinuate that we are where we are with COVID due to the current administration when the prior administration overlapped with 75% of the pandemic to-date and 25MM cases and 450K deaths occurred during the prior administration.

For the record I don't think COVID was Trump's fault. I think Warp Speed was a huge success. I think the Trump administration's messaging was extremely disjointed and their distribution strategy was lacking and that Biden's administration has very adequately picked up the distribution ball and run with it.

It's dumb to say it's either administration's fault. It's clear that institutional management of, and response to, a sudden global pandemic poses extraordinary problems for governments. That's a very non-partisan conclusion.

Since Texas opened 100% 2 months ago (tomorrow)

* Covid hospitalizations are the lowest in almost 11 months

* 5 consecutive days with fewer than 2,000 Covid cases

* Covid positivity rate below 5% for 6 straight days for the 1st time in forever

* fatalities down more than 2/3

— Greg Abbott (@GregAbbott_TX) May 9, 2021

Civilized said:

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It's dumb to say it's either administration's fault.

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But yet, you consistently blamed one for almost an entire year... but now your team has the ball, so now you feel that you need to change your stance... reminds me of another thread for some reason.

At least your MO stays consistent, I'll give you that much...

Anecdotal story on natural immunity. My BIL tested positive for COVID19 back in early August 2020 with pretty mild symptoms. He is 37 and in pretty good health. He has always given blood religiously and now they automatically test you for COVID19 antibodies. He gave blood on Saturday and he still tested positive for antibodies. That's nine months post mild infection and still showing immunity.

packgrad said:

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The younger generations don't need to be vaccinated, unless they have some underlying condition. Why we mandated a percentage on overall population is not a data driven decision. Target the most vulnerable. Let the rest live as they see fit.

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Agree to disagree on this one friend. The purpose of immunizations is to limit transmission of a virus to therefore limit hospitalizations and deaths. If you do not vaccinate a significant portion of the population, even younger ages, then that leaves the more vulnerable populations more at risk than if you only vaccinate the the elderly, chronic illness, etc. populations. We are trying to get to that herd immunity level across the nation where we see transmission drop off a cliff and hospitalizations and deaths follow. We know from many vaccinations, not just COVID, that the more of a population is vaccinated, the safer we are as a community.

ETA: Yes, the younger generations are less susceptible as far as deaths go, but there are still long haulers that we are currently dealing with in our clinics who are young and healthy and still cannot get back to their baseline health previously.

packgrad said:

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Since Texas opened 100% 2 months ago (tomorrow)

* Covid hospitalizations are the lowest in almost 11 months

* 5 consecutive days with fewer than 2,000 Covid cases

* Covid positivity rate below 5% for 6 straight days for the 1st time in forever

* fatalities down more than 2/3

— Greg Abbott (@GregAbbott_TX) May 9, 2021

---

How much more do people need to see? We have so much data now from states. We see who has locked down harder, masks more, and stays restricted. We see who's wide ass open and that even includes major sporting events now. I mean it's pretty obvious it's not making things worse at this point.

My in laws drive me up the walls. And my wife is with them. Still want to mask up and still believe there's risk. Saying we're getting there but we just gotta keep going. What BS... and no I don't say this to them I respect them and I make some counter points. But it's BS... we're not getting there... WE'RE THERE.

1. Texas and Florida. Most populated states in the US outside of Cali. Look at their policies versus Cali or NY. Who's better? If you don't know the obvious answer than you're lying or you're a complete idiot.

2. Who can get vaccinated? Anyone 16 and over. It's easy peasy. Hey some people don't buy this vaccine and don't want it. Fine! But if you have been vaccinated... act like it! You're vaccinated! Be confident! Why are people that are vaccinated walking around like they could still die or give a serious dose to someone else? And if you' have an immune system that you're worried about and you don't feel safe then why the hell aren't you vaccinated? If you don't feel safe and you don't get the shots than by all means don't go places and wear your mask all the time. It's your choice.

3. Everything should be a choice b/c everything IS a choice right now. The pandemic is OVER. This is now an endemic virus that will live with us for the rest of the time the world is around. It will never infect 0 people and it will never kill 0 people ever again. Fear not and live confidently. I promise you there will be more pandemics to come along with wars, domestic shootings, car accidents, recession (incoming in my opinion), hurricanes, earthquakes, tornadoes, etc.

PackPA2015 said:

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packgrad said:

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The younger generations don't need to be vaccinated, unless they have some underlying condition. Why we mandated a percentage on overall population is not a data driven decision. Target the most vulnerable. Let the rest live as they see fit.

---

Agree to disagree on this one friend. The purpose of immunizations is to limit transmission of a virus to therefore limit hospitalizations and deaths. If you do not vaccinate a significant portion of the population, even younger ages, then that leaves the more vulnerable populations more at risk than if you only vaccinate the the elderly, chronic illness, etc. populations. We are trying to get to that herd immunity level across the nation where we see transmission drop off a cliff and hospitalizations and deaths follow. We know from many vaccinations, not just COVID, that the more of a population is vaccinated, the safer we are as a community.

ETA: Yes, the younger generations are less susceptible as far as deaths go, but there are still long haulers that we are currently dealing with in our clinics who are young and healthy and still cannot get back to their baseline health previously.

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You say you're data driven yet you always use your outliers as fear mongering. Nobody denies that it is possible that a young person has a bad reaction to this. The data very clearly shows it is beyond extremely unlikely that they will have anything other than mild flu symptoms, if that.

You also get herd immunity by letting those that it doesn't adversely affect live their lives.

This started as a way to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed. It's evolved into irrelevant scoreboard stats to keep us locked down.

It's all political. They would have to admit those evil Republican governors in TX and FL were right.

No, I am not trying to fear monger. I don't want any COVID restrictions just as you and most others on this board.

Herd immunity can be achieved through vaccination or natural infection. It is much, much safer to achieve that through vaccination regardless of age. My point with the younger generations is that although their risk of complication from COVID is significantly lower than the elderly/chronically ill, there is still risk. Vaccination has almost zero risk.

It's individual health decisions vs community health decisions. PackPA and I will never argue against the idea that the young and healthy are by and far at much lower risk of complications from covid, and we usually don't give people a hard time about their own health decisions here. We may disagree, but you're big boys. But we'll always see because of what we do the merits of vaccination (and situational mask wearing for now) for community health.

packgrad said:

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The younger generations don't need to be vaccinated, unless they have some underlying condition. Why we mandated a percentage on overall population is not a data driven decision. Target the most vulnerable. Let the rest live as they see fit.

---

As I indicated in previous posts, the decision to set a target on the percentage of adults vaccinated is driven by data. As I said (and many know), I have been critical of Cooper in the past for the lack of science and data in some of his decisions. With regards to the target of 2/3 of adults being vaccinated with at least one dose, it is driven by data. The data shows this is a target we need to hit to get close to herd immunity.

You are free to disagree with Cooper's target, but saying it is not data driven is not accurate. If you want data, here's a study just published in the Lancet regarding Israel and the effects of their large-scale vaccination campaign:

Impact and effectiveness of mRNA BNT162b2 vaccine against SARS-CoV-2 infections and COVID-19 cases, hospitalisations, and deaths following a nationwide vaccination campaign in Israel: an observational study using national surveillance data

BBW12OG said:

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PackPA2015 said:

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No, I am not trying to fear monger. I don't want any COVID restrictions just as you and most others on this board.

Herd immunity can be achieved through vaccination or natural infection. It is much, much safer to achieve that through vaccination regardless of age. My point with the younger generations is that although their risk of complication from COVID is significantly lower than the elderly/chronically ill, there is still risk. Vaccination has almost zero risk.

---

Do you feel the same way about the flu?

Did President Trump cure the flu or has it just "disappeared?"

How many people die annually because of the flu?

Do you agree with the left's God Fauci that we should "mask up" every flu season from now on?

Should the flu vaccine be mandatory like the left wants the Covid vaccine to be?

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1. Yes, as a medical provider, I do encourage the flu vaccine ever year to those that are able to take it. COVID is not the flu.

2. Not sure why Trump is being brought up, but there are various theories on why flu cases are at an all time low. COVID being more virulent, masking/social distancing/hand washing lowering cases, etc. They are somewhere within this thread.

3. 34,200 estimated flu deaths in the U.S. from 2018-2019. COVID is not the flu. We are trying to turn COVID into a flu-like amount of transmission and death.

4. No, I do not agree with Fauci that we should wear masks every flu season from here on out. I don't agree that we will be wearing masks till next Mother's day. Lately, I have not agreed with much of what Fauci has said other than to encourage everyone that can to get vaccinated.

5. I think our requirements for the flu vaccine are pretty spot on currently. We require them in medical areas (hospitals, clinics, etc.) or you have to wear a mask during flu season. I would not increase those at this time.

packgrad said:

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PackPA2015 said:

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packgrad said:

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The younger generations don't need to be vaccinated, unless they have some underlying condition. Why we mandated a percentage on overall population is not a data driven decision. Target the most vulnerable. Let the rest live as they see fit.

---

Agree to disagree on this one friend. The purpose of immunizations is to limit transmission of a virus to therefore limit hospitalizations and deaths. If you do not vaccinate a significant portion of the population, even younger ages, then that leaves the more vulnerable populations more at risk than if you only vaccinate the the elderly, chronic illness, etc. populations. We are trying to get to that herd immunity level across the nation where we see transmission drop off a cliff and hospitalizations and deaths follow. We know from many vaccinations, not just COVID, that the more of a population is vaccinated, the safer we are as a community.

ETA: Yes, the younger generations are less susceptible as far as deaths go, but there are still long haulers that we are currently dealing with in our clinics who are young and healthy and still cannot get back to their baseline health previously.

---

You say you're data driven yet you always use your outliers as fear mongering. Nobody denies that it is possible that a young person has a bad reaction to this. The data very clearly shows it is beyond extremely unlikely that they will have anything other than mild flu symptoms, if that.

You also get herd immunity by letting those that it doesn't adversely affect live their lives.

This started as a way to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed. It's evolved into irrelevant scoreboard stats to keep us locked down.

---

There's real truth in these words. But i want to add that we're humans taking care of humans/families, and so we're often most influenced by our personal experiences. So they don't seem like outliers to us.

We were told right here that the data is falsified and can't be trusted, and then it was said that at least half feel this way. But guess what data PackPA and I tend to trust... Our own personal observations/experiences. We like to share them here, knowing there will be discussion both ways. That's cool with us. At least i hope that's what people think.

PackPA2015 said:

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BBW12OG said:

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PackPA2015 said:

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No, I am not trying to fear monger. I don't want any COVID restrictions just as you and most others on this board.

Herd immunity can be achieved through vaccination or natural infection. It is much, much safer to achieve that through vaccination regardless of age. My point with the younger generations is that although their risk of complication from COVID is significantly lower than the elderly/chronically ill, there is still risk. Vaccination has almost zero risk.

---

Do you feel the same way about the flu?

Did President Trump cure the flu or has it just "disappeared?"

How many people die annually because of the flu?

Do you agree with the left's God Fauci that we should "mask up" every flu season from now on?

Should the flu vaccine be mandatory like the left wants the Covid vaccine to be?

---

1. Yes, as a medical provider, I do encourage the flu vaccine ever year to those that are able to take it. COVID is not the flu.

2. Not sure why Trump is being brought up, but there are various theories on why flu cases are at an all time low. COVID being more virulent, masking/social distancing/hand washing lowering cases, etc. They are somewhere within this thread.

3. 34,200 estimated flu deaths in the U.S. from 2018-2019. COVID is not the flu. We are trying to turn COVID into a flu-like amount of transmission and death.

4. No, I do not agree with Fauci that we should wear masks every flu season from here on out. I don't agree that we will be wearing masks till next Mother's day. Lately, I have not agreed with much of what Fauci has said other than to encourage everyone that can to get vaccinated.

5. I think our requirements for the flu vaccine are pretty spot on currently. We require them in medical areas (hospitals, clinics, etc.) or you have to wear a mask during flu season. I would not increase those at this time.

---

For point number 2, I would also add that kids not being in-person for school is also viewed as a big reason why the cases of flu dropped this year. When Covid originally began, many in public health believed kids would be a big propellent of Covid transmission, like they are with the flu. In actuality, it has been found that kids are not important vectors for Covid transmission, which is opposite of flu transmission.

For this reason, kids should have remained in in-person learning for the year and should definitely be in in-person learning now and when school begins in the Fall.

ncsualum05 said:

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packgrad said:

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Since Texas opened 100% 2 months ago (tomorrow)

* Covid hospitalizations are the lowest in almost 11 months

* 5 consecutive days with fewer than 2,000 Covid cases

* Covid positivity rate below 5% for 6 straight days for the 1st time in forever

* fatalities down more than 2/3

— Greg Abbott (@GregAbbott_TX) May 9, 2021

---

How much more do people need to see? We have so much data now from states. We see who has locked down harder, masks more, and stays restricted. We see who's wide ass open and that even includes major sporting events now. I mean it's pretty obvious it's not making things worse at this point.

My in laws drive me up the walls. And my wife is with them. Still want to mask up and still believe there's risk. Saying we're getting there but we just gotta keep going. What BS... and no I don't say this to them I respect them and I make some counter points. But it's BS... we're not getting there... WE'RE THERE.

1. Texas and Florida. Most populated states in the US outside of Cali. Look at their policies versus Cali or NY. Who's better? If you don't know the obvious answer than you're lying or you're a complete idiot.

2. Who can get vaccinated? Anyone 16 and over. It's easy peasy. Hey some people don't buy this vaccine and don't want it. Fine! But if you have been vaccinated... act like it! You're vaccinated! Be confident! Why are people that are vaccinated walking around like they could still die or give a serious dose to someone else? And if you' have an immune system that you're worried about and you don't feel safe then why the hell aren't you vaccinated? If you don't feel safe and you don't get the shots than by all means don't go places and wear your mask all the time. It's your choice.

3. Everything should be a choice b/c everything IS a choice right now. The pandemic is OVER. This is now an endemic virus that will live with us for the rest of the time the world is around. It will never infect 0 people and it will never kill 0 people ever again. Fear not and live confidently. I promise you there will be more pandemics to come along with wars, domestic shootings, car accidents, recession (incoming in my opinion), hurricanes, earthquakes, tornadoes, etc.

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I actually agree with so much of this sentiment. I also believe we should be confident! But not to the point of defiance or temerity. Well reasoned, logical, thoughtful confidence.