PackPA2015 said:

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ncsualum05 said:

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PackPA2015 said:

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I know someone was asking about travel to Europe this summer. European Union announced that they will allow tourists whom are vaccinated to travel to those areas. These vaccines are working and they are working very, very well.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/european-union-will-let-vaccinated-americans-visit-this-summer-official-2021-04-25/

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Don't tell Fauci, Biden, CDC or rest of the democrat party that. Fauci just now admitted it's ok to be outdoors. The amount of mental disorders that he has caused in people is immeasurable and would take years to even get an idea.

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Yep, we messed that up royally. Should have been pushing people outdoors for as many things as possible from the beginning.

Just remember through all of this (this is for everyone, not just you), but hindsight is always 20/20. Now, were the medical entities too slow in changing guidelines, etc.? Yes, of course, but some things we just did not know initially and are now catching up with these changes. This one, we were really, really slow with and were wrong about.

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BS. It was way worse than just slow messaging. It was manipulation and control. Doctors last spring/ summer were coming out with logical messaging based on study of this virus as well as viruses throughout history. They were silenced or censored. People were getting harassed for being on a beach by themselves or in a park. Me... a joe blow who has no medical training understood last summer that outdoors in the fresh air coronavirus particles could not easily spread. It was close contact indoors where most spread took place.

It was ironic because while politicians were hammering people for attempting to open a business or do activities because it wasn't safe to go outside or leave your home at the same time they justified thousands taking to the streets screaming and spitting in people's faces and setting buildings on fire. During all those summer riots we should've had millions of cases pop up everywhere in those cities and yet we did not. But the messaging never changed... only rioting was allowed while 4th of July events were cancelled. We also knew schools could open safely with measures and yet we refused to follow that. Gyms and restaurants went broke while studies showed they couldn't trace that many cases back to a gym or a restaurant.

Data and science stopped being followed by most of our leaders about 1 month into shutdown last year and it never got better. People's trust in government and media is at an all time low and they earned it. If you want to complain about people not getting their vaccine now than you need to blame power hungry bureaucrats like Fauci and corrupt politicians like some of these governors and Biden.

ncsualum05 said:

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PackPA2015 said:

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ncsualum05 said:

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PackPA2015 said:

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I know someone was asking about travel to Europe this summer. European Union announced that they will allow tourists whom are vaccinated to travel to those areas. These vaccines are working and they are working very, very well.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/european-union-will-let-vaccinated-americans-visit-this-summer-official-2021-04-25/

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Don't tell Fauci, Biden, CDC or rest of the democrat party that. Fauci just now admitted it's ok to be outdoors. The amount of mental disorders that he has caused in people is immeasurable and would take years to even get an idea.

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Yep, we messed that up royally. Should have been pushing people outdoors for as many things as possible from the beginning.

Just remember through all of this (this is for everyone, not just you), but hindsight is always 20/20. Now, were the medical entities too slow in changing guidelines, etc.? Yes, of course, but some things we just did not know initially and are now catching up with these changes. This one, we were really, really slow with and were wrong about.

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BS. It was way worse than just slow messaging. It was manipulation and control. Doctors last spring/ summer were coming out with logical messaging based on study of this virus as well as viruses throughout history. They were silenced or censored. People were getting harassed for being on a beach by themselves or in a park. Me... a joe blow who has no medical training understood last summer that outdoors in the fresh air coronavirus particles could not easily spread. It was close contact indoors where most spread took place.

It was ironic because while politicians were hammering people for attempting to open a business or do activities because it wasn't safe to go outside or leave your home at the same time they justified thousands taking to the streets screaming and spitting in people's faces and setting buildings on fire. During all those summer riots we should've had millions of cases pop up everywhere in those cities and yet we did not. But the messaging never changed... only rioting was allowed while 4th of July events were cancelled. We also knew schools could open safely with measures and yet we refused to follow that. Gyms and restaurants went broke while studies showed they couldn't trace that many cases back to a gym or a restaurant.

Data and science stopped being followed by most of our leaders about 1 month into shutdown last year and it never got better. People's trust in government and media is at an all time low and they earned it. If you want to complain about people not getting their vaccine now than you need to blame power hungry bureaucrats like Fauci and corrupt politicians like some of these governors and Biden.

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Slow down, brother. I tried to convey that I was not trying to call you out with my post. I apologize if that's what it came across as. I am not saying at all that I agree with Fauci, et al. about how things were handled. The medical community, including myself, got things wrong, because we just didn't know about some aspects of the virus or we treated it like SARS I or got bad information from the top down.

I am totally agreeing with you on the outdoors message. We, and I am including myself as part of the medical community, screwed that up completely. We told people to play it safe and just stay home. We thought it would be okay to go outdoors with natural ventilation, but the messaging as you alluded to did not reference that. I did not agree with the message that protests and riots were okay while playing on a playground was not. I did not think we should have shut down national parks, etc. because of COVID. I am not at all saying that was the right thing to do.

I just don't always agree with blaming "the opposite party", and this goes for both sides, when we didn't know what the answer was until later on in the process. I am not saying that the outdoors message or mask mandate was a part of that. I totally admit that there was fault there. Again, apologies if I did not make my point very well. Hope this makes more sense.

GuerrillaPack said:

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These experimental vaccines are safe and effec...

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That is 1 case out of how many people that we have vaccinated now with the Pfizer vaccine? If this was happening in a significant portion of the population, then yes, we would be concerned. It's not.

This is why we study these vaccines in thousands of people with all different backgrounds, ethnicities, and health issues. They have proven very safe and extremely effective.

ETA: The incidence of Guillain-Barre syndrome (acute flaccid paralysis) in the U.S. population is 1.2-3 per 100K. The incidence of this syndrome after a COVID vaccination is less than that. It is actually more common after having a bacterial or viral illness than after a vaccine of any type.

GuerrillaPack said:

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PackPA2015 said:

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GuerrillaPack said:

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These experimental vaccines are safe and effec...

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That is 1 case out of how many people that we have vaccinated now with the Pfizer vaccine? If this was happening in a significant portion of the population, then yes, we would be concerned. It's not.

This is why we study these vaccines in thousands of people with all different backgrounds, ethnicities, and health issues. They have proven very safe and extremely effective.

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"Safe and effective"...sure,sure. If we repeat the mantra enough maybe it will actually make it true.

No way in hell I'm letting them inject me with any of this.

There are many other cases of people being paralyzed with these covid vaccines. I was reading/watching a couple reports just yesterday on a couple other cases of paralysis that just happened. This is widespread. A lot of adverse reactions aren't being reported. It was bad enough with the Johnson & Johnson jab that they had to hit pause- for blood clot issues.

I'm also hearing there may be infertility issues with women as a side effect. Some of these side effects may not manifest until later.

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Obviously, it is completely your decision to be vaccinated or not, but your reports are just untrue. Medical providers have to report potential vaccine adverse effects to their local health departments and the CDC. It is required by law and our medical license. Again, Guillain-Barre which is the paralysis is more common after having any type of bacterial or viral illness than it is with any vaccine.

The blood clots were 16 cases out of all the vaccinated individuals. It is literally a one in a million chance.

There are no infertility issues with the vaccine. This has been disproved many times. Hence, why they are recommending the vaccine for pregnant females. The American Academy of Obstetrics recommends the vaccines for all females regardless of pregnancy status or attempting to become pregnant.

ETA: Where are you getting your information that paralysis secondary to COVID vaccinations is widespread? Just curious.

PackPA2015 said:

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GuerrillaPack said:

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PackPA2015 said:

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GuerrillaPack said:

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These experimental vaccines are safe and effec...

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That is 1 case out of how many people that we have vaccinated now with the Pfizer vaccine? If this was happening in a significant portion of the population, then yes, we would be concerned. It's not.

This is why we study these vaccines in thousands of people with all different backgrounds, ethnicities, and health issues. They have proven very safe and extremely effective.

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"Safe and effective"...sure,sure. If we repeat the mantra enough maybe it will actually make it true.

No way in hell I'm letting them inject me with any of this.

There are many other cases of people being paralyzed with these covid vaccines. I was reading/watching a couple reports just yesterday on a couple other cases of paralysis that just happened. This is widespread. A lot of adverse reactions aren't being reported. It was bad enough with the Johnson & Johnson jab that they had to hit pause- for blood clot issues.

I'm also hearing there may be infertility issues with women as a side effect. Some of these side effects may not manifest until later.

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Obviously, it is completely your decision to be vaccinated or not, but your reports are just untrue. Medical providers have to report potential vaccine adverse effects to their local health departments and the CDC. It is required by law and our medical license. Again, Guillain-Barre which is the paralysis is more common after having any type of bacterial or viral illness than it is with any vaccine.

The blood clots were 16 cases out of all the vaccinated individuals. It is literally a one in a million chance.

There are no infertility issues with the vaccine. This has been disproved many times. Hence, why they are recommending the vaccine for pregnant females. The American Academy of Obstetrics recommends the vaccines for all females regardless of pregnancy status or attempting to become pregnant.

ETA: Where are you getting your information that paralysis secondary to COVID vaccinations is widespread? Just curious.

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You are absolutely correct PackPA. The reports of issues are being hyped by the anti-vaxers (I'm talking about
Alex Berenson - an absolutely horrible person by the way) and others who believe all kinds of wild tails about the vaccines. I read of a school in Florida last night that has banned students and staff from getting the vaccine. They cite unnamed doctors who claim people who are vaccinated put the non-vaccinated people at higher risk for getting Covid. If a staff member gets the vaccine, they will be fired.

I also want to see the evidence for widespread paralysis after vaccine and if it comes from the VAERS reporting (Alex is real fond of that site), expect to be challenged. The VAERS system includes unverified data that can be input by anyone with access. It is an input system for data and not a system for reporting verified data.

This statement comes directly from the VAERS website:

"The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) database contains information on unverified reports of adverse events (illnesses, health problems and/or symptoms) following immunization with US-licensed vaccines. Reports are accepted from anyone and can be submitted electronically at www.vaers.hhs.gov."

johntom said:

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Daviewolf83 said:

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As of 4/20, the CDC reports the following:

# people fully vaccinated = 87M
# people infected after full vaccination = 7,157
# people hospitalized after full vaccination = 498
# people who died after full vaccination = 88

Here are the percentages for people becoming infected, hospitalized, or dying after full vaccination:

Percent infected = 0.008%
Percent hospitalization = 0.0006%
Percentage that died = 0.0001%

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I think this is great news as far as containing the virus but honestly doesn't make me feel great about limiting serious infections. A 1% death rate for those actually contracting the virus after vaccination is about what it is for people without the vaccine. I imagine there's some other factors involved with why people were infected after vaccination or potentially the actual cause of death not being directly related to COVID, but this is somewhat discouraging IMO.

Having said that I'm still 100% pro vaccine. Israel has showed that vaccinations work in controlling the spread of the virus. If we can continue getting these numbers up we should see a somewhat normal summer and beyond.

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1% is 10,000x higher than 0.0001% - I'd say that's a significant difference. That's 6 9's efficacy against death... which insanely good.

johntom said:

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Daviewolf83 said:

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As of 4/20, the CDC reports the following:

# people fully vaccinated = 87M
# people infected after full vaccination = 7,157
# people hospitalized after full vaccination = 498
# people who died after full vaccination = 88

Here are the percentages for people becoming infected, hospitalized, or dying after full vaccination:

Percent infected = 0.008%
Percent hospitalization = 0.0006%
Percentage that died = 0.0001%

---

I think this is great news as far as containing the virus but honestly doesn't make me feel great about limiting serious infections. A 1% death rate for those actually contracting the virus after vaccination is about what it is for people without the vaccine. I imagine there's some other factors involved with why people were infected after vaccination or potentially the actual cause of death not being directly related to COVID, but this is somewhat discouraging IMO.

Having said that I'm still 100% pro vaccine. Israel has showed that vaccinations work in controlling the spread of the virus. If we can continue getting these numbers up we should see a somewhat normal summer and beyond.

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That is not a 1% death rate for post-vaccination. That is 0.0001% which is much, much lower than the 2-3% mortality rate for COVID in the U.S.

PackPA2015 said:

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johntom said:

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Daviewolf83 said:

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As of 4/20, the CDC reports the following:

# people fully vaccinated = 87M
# people infected after full vaccination = 7,157
# people hospitalized after full vaccination = 498
# people who died after full vaccination = 88

Here are the percentages for people becoming infected, hospitalized, or dying after full vaccination:

Percent infected = 0.008%
Percent hospitalization = 0.0006%
Percentage that died = 0.0001%

---

I think this is great news as far as containing the virus but honestly doesn't make me feel great about limiting serious infections. A 1% death rate for those actually contracting the virus after vaccination is about what it is for people without the vaccine. I imagine there's some other factors involved with why people were infected after vaccination or potentially the actual cause of death not being directly related to COVID, but this is somewhat discouraging IMO.

Having said that I'm still 100% pro vaccine. Israel has showed that vaccinations work in controlling the spread of the virus. If we can continue getting these numbers up we should see a somewhat normal summer and beyond.

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That is not a 1% death rate for post-vaccination. That is 0.0001% which is much, much lower than the 2-3% mortality rate for COVID in the U.S.

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Additionally, we know from cases in NC that people who become infected with Covid-19 and are not vaccinated, approximately 4% will be hospitalized. This is compared to 0.0006% for people who are fully vaccinated that become hospitalized.

I am not sure how anyone could confuse 0.0001% with 1%. They are different in in magnitude by a factor 10,000.

Stop while you can PA. You're about to go down a very dark hole.

It's not worth it, PA. The chance he will understand mirrors the true chance of serious side effects with vaccinations.

Daviewolf83 said:

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PackPA2015 said:

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johntom said:

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Daviewolf83 said:

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As of 4/20, the CDC reports the following:

# people fully vaccinated = 87M
# people infected after full vaccination = 7,157
# people hospitalized after full vaccination = 498
# people who died after full vaccination = 88

Here are the percentages for people becoming infected, hospitalized, or dying after full vaccination:

Percent infected = 0.008%
Percent hospitalization = 0.0006%
Percentage that died = 0.0001%

---

I think this is great news as far as containing the virus but honestly doesn't make me feel great about limiting serious infections. A 1% death rate for those actually contracting the virus after vaccination is about what it is for people without the vaccine. I imagine there's some other factors involved with why people were infected after vaccination or potentially the actual cause of death not being directly related to COVID, but this is somewhat discouraging IMO.

Having said that I'm still 100% pro vaccine. Israel has showed that vaccinations work in controlling the spread of the virus. If we can continue getting these numbers up we should see a somewhat normal summer and beyond.

---

That is not a 1% death rate for post-vaccination. That is 0.0001% which is much, much lower than the 2-3% mortality rate for COVID in the U.S.

---

Additionally, we know from cases in NC that people who become infected with Covid-19 and are not vaccinated, approximately 4% will be hospitalized. This is compared to 0.0006% for people who are fully vaccinated that become hospitalized.

I am not sure how anyone could confuse 0.0001% with 1%. They are different in in magnitude by a factor 10,000.

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I think johntom's just looking at 88 as a proportion of 7,157 infected post-vaccination and comparing that to the 2% mortality rate of infections currently pre-vaccinations.

What's lost in that analysis is that vaccines protect from death by proxy. They dramatically lower all infections in vaccinated individuals, so infections that become serious and result in death are also dramatically lowered.

Basically in a sample of 87MM unvaccinated Americans you'd expect orders of magnitude more deaths due to COVID than the 88 that actually did die. That's the comparison to make.

There have been 32 million COVID cases in the US and 576,000 deaths in people who were not vaccinated. Now compare those numbers to post-vaccination numbers and you see how well these vaccines work.

GuerrillaPack said:

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PackPA2015 said:

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There have been 32 million COVID cases in the US and 576,000 deaths in people who were not vaccinated. Now compare those numbers to post-vaccination numbers and you see how well these vaccines work.

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As I said, the "official data" is hogwash. There are nowhere near a true 576k deaths from this cold virus. Those numbers are completely fraudulent - deliberately inflated by falsely attributing hundreds of thousands of deaths (actually caused by pre-existing health problems such as heart disease and pneumonia, mostly of people 80+ years old with serious pre-existing health problems) to this and fraudulently labeling them as "covid deaths".

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Okay, man. You are wrong, but you are entitled to your opinion. I just want you to know that not everyone in life is out to get you or hoodwink you or see you suffer. Not everything is a fun conspiracy theory to promote.

I see what you were saying now. I get that, but COVID is still a nasty, deadly virus. The vaccines have dropped the rate of hospitalizations and deaths tremendously, but some will still get sick and some will still die, but it will be much less than without it.

Civilized said:

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Daviewolf83 said:

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PackPA2015 said:

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johntom said:

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Daviewolf83 said:

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As of 4/20, the CDC reports the following:

# people fully vaccinated = 87M
# people infected after full vaccination = 7,157
# people hospitalized after full vaccination = 498
# people who died after full vaccination = 88

Here are the percentages for people becoming infected, hospitalized, or dying after full vaccination:

Percent infected = 0.008%
Percent hospitalization = 0.0006%
Percentage that died = 0.0001%

---

I think this is great news as far as containing the virus but honestly doesn't make me feel great about limiting serious infections. A 1% death rate for those actually contracting the virus after vaccination is about what it is for people without the vaccine. I imagine there's some other factors involved with why people were infected after vaccination or potentially the actual cause of death not being directly related to COVID, but this is somewhat discouraging IMO.

Having said that I'm still 100% pro vaccine. Israel has showed that vaccinations work in controlling the spread of the virus. If we can continue getting these numbers up we should see a somewhat normal summer and beyond.

---

That is not a 1% death rate for post-vaccination. That is 0.0001% which is much, much lower than the 2-3% mortality rate for COVID in the U.S.

---

Additionally, we know from cases in NC that people who become infected with Covid-19 and are not vaccinated, approximately 4% will be hospitalized. This is compared to 0.0006% for people who are fully vaccinated that become hospitalized.

I am not sure how anyone could confuse 0.0001% with 1%. They are different in in magnitude by a factor 10,000.

---

I think johntom's just looking at 88 as a proportion of 7,157 infected post-vaccination and comparing that to the 2% mortality rate of infections currently pre-vaccinations.

What's lost in that analysis is that vaccines protect from death by proxy. They dramatically lower all infections in vaccinated individuals, so infections that become serious and result in death are also dramatically lowered.

Basically in a sample of 87MM unvaccinated Americans you'd expect orders of magnitude more deaths due to COVID than the 88 that actually did die. That's the comparison to make.

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Exactly. If you do not get infected with Covid, you can not be hospitalized due to Covid and you can not die from Covid. The key is to avoid becoming infected and we know the vaccines do an excellent job of preventing infection, particularly serious infection.

We do know that people getting vaccinated actually lowers infection for unvaccinated people. So, to those who do not want to get vaccinated - you're welcome.