Wolfblood said:

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Like I said last night, unlike millions of Americans, the medical experts, politicians and media hacks that are making and pushing these policy decisions have no financial skin in the game. Also, do we know the breakdown of job losses for the private sector versus government employees. That would be an interesting study.

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Very interesting point here. We do know that job loss has been more prevalent in blue collar job sectors, and I do feel that if job loss had been higher in white collar sectors we would have re-opened much sooner.

Looking at government job loss, there probably hasn't been much. It takes A LOT to lose a government job. Which is nice job security for those workers.

King Leary said:

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Wolfblood said:

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Like I said last night, unlike millions of Americans, the medical experts, politicians and media hacks that are making and pushing these policy decisions have no financial skin in the game. Also, do we know the breakdown of job losses for the private sector versus government employees. That would be an interesting study.

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Very interesting point here. We do know that job loss has been more prevalent in blue collar job sectors, and I do feel that if job loss had been higher in white collar sectors we would have re-opened much sooner.

Looking at government job loss, there probably hasn't been much. It takes A LOT to lose a government job. Which is nice job security for those workers.

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as someone who works for a municipality, nobody lost their job, just hiring freezes, instead of getting our cost of living "raise" next month theyre giving us a 500 check in august for working throughout the pandemic and will look at the cost of living "raise" at the end of the year.

Packchem91 said:

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packgrad said:

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Packchem91 said:

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packgrad said:

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They want to extend this as long as possible. You said the president would have been forgiven for the economy. Democrats were literally celebrating when the economy tanked early in the crisis. Maybe they're hoping it will take another dive. Keeping bars and gyms closed isn't a decision based on "science". It is 100% a political decision. How can you justify all of the other businesses allowed to open, but not bars and gyms? There is no justification.

Sow fear. Sow discontent. Sow racial issues. Hope for another downturn of the economy. And then maybe everyone will forget or not care that your candidate is in early stages of Alzheimer's.

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People don't act the same in bars and Lowe's or Target. Sorry, that's not a reasonable comparison. The very nature of bars is a social encourager. I do believe images from certain events have an impact on human decisions --- seeing scenes from Nashville and other bar-heavy areas of widespread close social interaction w/o masks could absolutely influence reasonable decision makers.

How do you measure that? How do you differentiate the risk of a stand-alone bar from one that takes up 1/2 a restaurant? No idea.

As for NOV...the people who are most angry about the bar decision made by a DEM governor....wouldn't he be more at risk for losing than Trump based off that? How is any voter in NC going to blame (and vote against) Trump in NOV when it is clearly the NC Governor making that decision?

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I never compared Lowe's/HD to a bar. I believe it is apparent that Democrat leadership throughout the country have made the decision that it hurts them more to open up and find out that the virus is not as bad as we've been told than it does to keep small businesses closed destroying many of them.

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I could buy that if it were allowing the economy in general to open. Tourism in states like NC/SC for example.
But....you've yet to come close to showing how the NC GOV keeping bars closed has one iota of an impact on the national scene.

I get being mad about it...that's fine. And he may have ulterior motives -- I'm most certainly no fan of his. But cynicism does have its limits, or it just becomes absurd.
And why close bars to win a political contest....are bars particularly right-leaning? I always thought drinking was blind to political affiliation?

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I have yet to prove how the NC governor closing bars has an impact on the national scene? What are you talking about? Seems like you're making up arguments to be contrarian.

Tell me why bars and gyms are closed then if it's not a political decision.

packgrad said:

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Packchem91 said:

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packgrad said:

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Packchem91 said:

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packgrad said:

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They want to extend this as long as possible. You said the president would have been forgiven for the economy. Democrats were literally celebrating when the economy tanked early in the crisis. Maybe they're hoping it will take another dive. Keeping bars and gyms closed isn't a decision based on "science". It is 100% a political decision. How can you justify all of the other businesses allowed to open, but not bars and gyms? There is no justification.

Sow fear. Sow discontent. Sow racial issues. Hope for another downturn of the economy. And then maybe everyone will forget or not care that your candidate is in early stages of Alzheimer's.

---

People don't act the same in bars and Lowe's or Target. Sorry, that's not a reasonable comparison. The very nature of bars is a social encourager. I do believe images from certain events have an impact on human decisions --- seeing scenes from Nashville and other bar-heavy areas of widespread close social interaction w/o masks could absolutely influence reasonable decision makers.

How do you measure that? How do you differentiate the risk of a stand-alone bar from one that takes up 1/2 a restaurant? No idea.

As for NOV...the people who are most angry about the bar decision made by a DEM governor....wouldn't he be more at risk for losing than Trump based off that? How is any voter in NC going to blame (and vote against) Trump in NOV when it is clearly the NC Governor making that decision?

---

I never compared Lowe's/HD to a bar. I believe it is apparent that Democrat leadership throughout the country have made the decision that it hurts them more to open up and find out that the virus is not as bad as we've been told than it does to keep small businesses closed destroying many of them.

---

I could buy that if it were allowing the economy in general to open. Tourism in states like NC/SC for example.
But....you've yet to come close to showing how the NC GOV keeping bars closed has one iota of an impact on the national scene.

I get being mad about it...that's fine. And he may have ulterior motives -- I'm most certainly no fan of his. But cynicism does have its limits, or it just becomes absurd.
And why close bars to win a political contest....are bars particularly right-leaning? I always thought drinking was blind to political affiliation?

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I have yet to prove how the NC governor closing bars has an impact on the national scene? What are you talking about? Seems like you're making up arguments to be contrarian.

Tell me why bars and gyms are closed then if it's not a political decision.

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LOL, you're the one making the accusations it's political. And that its to hurt Trump....seems you have to prove it, not me.

As for why it's not political....I don't know, because if I thought of the places I'd least like to be during a pandemic, where spread is based on being close together, that list would go something like this, in no particular order.

stadiums/arenas (off limits)
a packed bar where alcohol serves its purpose and makes people forget inhibitions
a locker room (see what is going on with CFB teams)
mass transit.
a protest movement (certainly view here is based on one's politics)
a meat packing plant.
I could throw in "street party in Charlotte or Syracuse" as an aside here....


All of those things, you can make a medical assertion of increased risk. In fact, we've seen the results.
I think probably a gym, by itself, should have much more of an argument than bars. But again you tell me why a gym is a political target?

cowboypack02 said:

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Packchem91 said:

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packgrad said:

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They want to extend this as long as possible. You said the president would have been forgiven for the economy. Democrats were literally celebrating when the economy tanked early in the crisis. Maybe they're hoping it will take another dive. Keeping bars and gyms closed isn't a decision based on "science". It is 100% a political decision. How can you justify all of the other businesses allowed to open, but not bars and gyms? There is no justification.

Sow fear. Sow discontent. Sow racial issues. Hope for another downturn of the economy. And then maybe everyone will forget or not care that your candidate is in early stages of Alzheimer's.

---

People don't act the same in bars and Lowe's or Target. Sorry, that's not a reasonable comparison. The very nature of bars is a social encourager. I do believe images from certain events have an impact on human decisions --- seeing scenes from Nashville and other bar-heavy areas of widespread close social interaction w/o masks could absolutely influence reasonable decision makers.

How do you measure that? How do you differentiate the risk of a stand-alone bar from one that takes up 1/2 a restaurant? No idea.

As for NOV...the people who are most angry about the bar decision made by a DEM governor....wouldn't he be more at risk for losing than Trump based off that? How is any voter in NC going to blame (and vote against) Trump in NOV when it is clearly the NC Governor making that decision?

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Normally i would say yes.....but look at what has happened with the coronavirus so far...

The democrats were trying to impeach Trump for something that every politician does while this thing is getting started in january/febuary instead of focusing on what the country needs...and somehow its trump's fault

The democrats were calling Trump racist against Asians and telling people to go to chinatown when he blocked travel from China....but somehow its Trump's fault

Half of the people who died in NY were in nursing homes after the democrat governor told nursing homes that they had to take people who tested positive for coronavirus....but somehow that's trumps fault.

The democrats are blaming the Trump for the economy, even though the individual state governors are the ones that closed things down....but somehow that's trumps fault.

We have had over 110K people die of the coronavirus and if you watch CBS, NBC, CNN, or any other "news" stations you would think that Trump is walking around and personally injecting people with this virus.

Since we are in the time of federal and judicial supremacy instead of states rights i don't think the democrats as a whole care about the NC governor that much in the grand scheme of things when they know that if laws can get passed on a federal level they can force the state to accept it through the judicial branch. Trump is enough of an ******* that the only reason that most folks will vote for him is if he has a good economy behind him so to answer your question in a round about way...i absolutely believe that the democrats would crash the economy on a state level it they thought it would hurt trump in november.

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I mostly agree with your first 5 paragraphs. That's politics and media 101 crap, being honest. I can hate it, but it goes both ways. The Dems just have the benefit that the MSM sides with them.

In para 4, you indicate Dems are blaming Trump for the economy and the shutdown....I think most Americans are in agreement, the initial shutdown was necessary. We didn't know what we were dealing with....and it was bad...potentially catastrophic. So I think he could have gotten by with that.

As for the last para...I guess it just depends on how cynical you are. I still don't see how a NC gov po'ing half the population of NC is going to hurt Trump in November, but if you want to think that abstractly...ok.

To me....what is going to lose Trump the election is NOT the economy. And likely wouldn't even have been his being slow to react to the virus initially while it was festering everywhere.
It will be the rest of his behavior during this period....all he really had to do was act like a decent, compassionate human. But its not in his DNA. And given the fragility of the country, while he could get away with that against the most hated ***** in history in HRC, he won't be able to this time.
He got by on the narrowest of margins last time, and to me, his lack of decency will lose him enough support from those right on the fence.

And the Dems can just shut up and stay out of the way to accomplish that. In fact, the best strategy they've had is to keep Biden hidden....wait for Trump to say something stupid (about Corona or police brutality) and then simply give Biden a specific statement that basically says, I believe the opposite of that. And he wins.

packgrad said:

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Packchem91 said:

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packgrad said:

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Packchem91 said:

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packgrad said:

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Packchem91 said:

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packgrad said:

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They want to extend this as long as possible. You said the president would have been forgiven for the economy. Democrats were literally celebrating when the economy tanked early in the crisis. Maybe they're hoping it will take another dive. Keeping bars and gyms closed isn't a decision based on "science". It is 100% a political decision. How can you justify all of the other businesses allowed to open, but not bars and gyms? There is no justification.

Sow fear. Sow discontent. Sow racial issues. Hope for another downturn of the economy. And then maybe everyone will forget or not care that your candidate is in early stages of Alzheimer's.

---

People don't act the same in bars and Lowe's or Target. Sorry, that's not a reasonable comparison. The very nature of bars is a social encourager. I do believe images from certain events have an impact on human decisions --- seeing scenes from Nashville and other bar-heavy areas of widespread close social interaction w/o masks could absolutely influence reasonable decision makers.

How do you measure that? How do you differentiate the risk of a stand-alone bar from one that takes up 1/2 a restaurant? No idea.

As for NOV...the people who are most angry about the bar decision made by a DEM governor....wouldn't he be more at risk for losing than Trump based off that? How is any voter in NC going to blame (and vote against) Trump in NOV when it is clearly the NC Governor making that decision?

---

I never compared Lowe's/HD to a bar. I believe it is apparent that Democrat leadership throughout the country have made the decision that it hurts them more to open up and find out that the virus is not as bad as we've been told than it does to keep small businesses closed destroying many of them.

---

I could buy that if it were allowing the economy in general to open. Tourism in states like NC/SC for example.
But....you've yet to come close to showing how the NC GOV keeping bars closed has one iota of an impact on the national scene.

I get being mad about it...that's fine. And he may have ulterior motives -- I'm most certainly no fan of his. But cynicism does have its limits, or it just becomes absurd.
And why close bars to win a political contest....are bars particularly right-leaning? I always thought drinking was blind to political affiliation?

---

I have yet to prove how the NC governor closing bars has an impact on the national scene? What are you talking about? Seems like you're making up arguments to be contrarian.

Tell me why bars and gyms are closed then if it's not a political decision.

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LOL, you're the one making the accusations it's political. And that its to hurt Trump....seems you have to prove it, not me.

As for why it's not political....I don't know, because if I thought of the places I'd least like to be during a pandemic, where spread is based on being close together, that list would go something like this, in no particular order.

stadiums/arenas (off limits)
a packed bar where alcohol serves its purpose and makes people forget inhibitions
a locker room (see what is going on with CFB teams)
mass transit.
a protest movement (certainly view here is based on one's politics)
a meat packing plant.
I could throw in "street party in Charlotte or Syracuse" as an aside here....


All of those things, you can make a medical assertion of increased risk. In fact, we've seen the results.
I think probably a gym, by itself, should have much more of an argument than bars. But again you tell me why a gym is a political target?

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There is no reason gyms should be closed while other businesses are allowed to be open. What is the reason other than political? It's not my responsibility to tell you why it is closed. It's the governor's job, but he won't.

There is no reason bars should be closed but breweries can be opened. What is the reason other than political? It's not my responsibility to tell you why they are closed. It's the governor's job, but he won't.

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One thing I'll 100% side with you on here.....for why breweries are ok, but bars are not....someone in the media should hold him accountable to answer that specifically. I don't know why one is good and the other not.
I'd have to think that has been asked....but maybe not.

Packchem91 said:

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I've been with the crowd of believing the data is not being accurately reported....and in some cases, purposefully inaccurately reported (or w/o context)

And I get a politician might move dates around to have a particularly strong story when he makes a policy.

But....how does keeping bars and gyms closed affect the national election in November? Wouldn't folks who are particuarly po'd here, be po'd at the governor? (who is leading by a lot in the polls even here, strangely enough).

Frankly, at the national level....I think people would / would have forgiven the POTUS of economic downturn....

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LOLOLOLOL...

Because Cooper doesn't have anybody running against him that has a chance. Forrest?

C'mon. You've been around North Carolina politics longer than that I hope...

He has no real risk... and he already has experience with these dirty tactics from the first time around...

(I'm not even going to respond to the comment about POTUS... dude has been under attack since Day 1... liberal media never ever gave him a chance... not a quarter... not a month... not a week... MAYBE a day or two... funny how the other side didn't revolt when Obama was elected... democracy means different things to different people obviously)

Can we move the conspiracy theories to another thread so Wayland and Davie can have room to post their analyses? Thanks in advance.

Disagree - this is starting to get off the rails:

Quote:

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(I'm not even going to respond to the comment about POTUS... dude has been under attack since Day 1... liberal media never ever gave him a chance... not a quarter... not a month... not a week... MAYBE a day or two... funny how the other side didn't revolt when Obama was elected... democracy means different things to different people obviously)

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packgrad said:

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And what do they all have in common?

According to WRAL - Lt. Gov. Dan Forest plans to sue Gov. Roy Cooper's administration for violating the Emergency Management Act, according to a Thursday statement from Forest.

This apparently was released to the media very closely followed by a fund raising email announcing the same thing at the same time (according to a buddy of mine in State politics). This should certainly help the divide in the state

statefan91 said:

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TheStorm said:

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packgrad said:

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And what do they all have in common?

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All were an original 13 colony obviously

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Well played, State Farm.

How does his help/hurt the divide? Forrest is not required to bend the knee.

FlossyDFlynt said:

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According to WRAL - Lt. Gov. Dan Forest plans to sue Gov. Roy Cooper's administration for violating the Emergency Management Act, according to a Thursday statement from Forest.

This apparently was released to the media very closely followed by a fund raising email announcing the same thing at the same time (according to a buddy of mine in State politics). This should certainly help the divide in the state

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Good.....By law Cooper should of gone through them before any of the stuff that he has done in terms of the Coronavirus.

Forest was on the radio complaining back when this all started that Cooper told the Council of State what he was going to do and then asked them to approve it....when they didn't Cooper did it anyway. Forest got trashed on social media for even bringing it up.

It is my understanding that by law Cooper needed the approval of the Council of State, which included the LT Gov, Sec of State, Auditor, Treasurer, Superintendent of Public Instruction, AG, Commish of AG, Commish of Labor, Commish of Insurance, and the governor.

According to Forest the Council was OK with what Cooper wanted to do, but wouldn't approve it until Cooper gave them a plan for how he was going to bring everything back to normal operations again. When Cooper wouldn't do that the Council voted down any of the restrictions that Cooper has put in place.

My question here is why did Forest wait so long before going the lawsuit route, but of course i'm sure that it was the optics of the situation. Its a shame that a public officials have to be sued to follow the rule of law

packgrad said:

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How does his help/hurt the divide? Forrest is not required to bend the knee.

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No, hes not. And I actually dont mind him suing Cooper. But this is obviously a political stunt. You dont announce youre suing him immediately followed by a fundraising email. I would bet if he wasnt running against Cooper, he wouldnt be doing it.

FlossyDFlynt said:

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packgrad said:

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How does his help/hurt the divide? Forrest is not required to bend the knee.

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No, hes not. And I actually dont mind him suing Cooper. But this is obviously a political stunt. You dont announce youre suing him immediately followed by a fundraising email. I would bet if he wasnt running against Cooper, he wouldnt be doing it.

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Agreed. Forest has no real chance of beating him in my opinion.

I'm fine with Cooper being sued if he didn't provide the council with a plan to get out of this mess.

I obviously lean liberal but have been very unhappy with Coopers handling of all this. Especially that if they knew masks were as important as they are, then they failed the State by not requiring it when we moved into Phase 2.

Percent of ER visits and ICU admits is completely bogus data in regards to policy decisions. Frightened patients FINALLY stop using the ER like a primary care, and we saw less and less other issues as people avoided care like the plague for fear of exposure in the ER. Less people moving about decreased the trauma admissions. Made call for us neurosurgeons super sweet tho.

What I can't answer is where all the brain bleeds and nursing home falls went. Didn't see any of them for weeks. They've ramped up big time now, do you can imagine the percentage of covid ICU admits has dropped. My ICU is FULL of head trauma and brain hemorrhages.

Right now there are only 5 covid in our icus throughout our 5 hospitals, and only 1 on a vent.

Also learned yesterday that only about 40% of deaths here in our 5 counties have died in the hospital.

Crazy stat about so many non hospital deaths. Is a good part of that LTC deaths not making it to the hospital?

Glad to see things maybe turning a little for your hospital regarding COVID.

Also a positive, if I read that right that others are finally coming for care again. The excess deaths due to delayed care were a concern for me.

With respect to the falls and brain bleeds, do you think maybe since they couldn't get them together in groups, the nursing homes kept a lot of the patients in bed? They were taking meals to them in their rooms instead of having them go somewhere for dinner, so less moving around. I'd hate to think a lot of them were just kept in bed for months, though. Ultimately that's not good for them.

Steve Williams said:

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Maybe some know, maybe some don't but several gyms in the Wake Forest area are open. In fact, a gym I frequent never closed.

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There was a story on WRAL a couple of weeks ago that touched on gyms that have opened. They are using a loophole in the law that allows them to be open for people who have health issues and need to have access to a gym to deal with the issues. For example, someone recovering from an injury (knee surgery as an example) needs to have access to a gym for rehab activities. So, some gyms have opened and are providing services to people who need the activities for health reasons. In the interest of privacy, they are not asking to see any doctor's orders or prove of need.

Of course, they are doing this as a way of getting around the executive order and are taking a chance that the governor will not notice and shut them down, like he did the speedway in Alamance county.

Daviewolf83 said:

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Steve Williams said:

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Maybe some know, maybe some don't but several gyms in the Wake Forest area are open. In fact, a gym I frequent never closed.

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There was a story on WRAL a couple of weeks ago that touched on gyms that have opened. They are using a loophole in the law that allows them to be open for people who have health issues and need to have access to a gym to deal with the issues. For example, someone recovering from an injury (knee surgery as an example) needs to have access to a gym for rehab activities. So, some gyms have opened and are providing services to people who need the activities for health reasons. In the interest of privacy, they are not asking to see any doctor's orders or prove of need.

Of course, they are doing this as a way of getting around the executive order and are taking a chance that the governor will not notice and shut them down, like he did the speedway in Alamance county.

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My gym opened up, and was featured on the news. On the broadcast, he basically said that they will use safety protocols and practice social distancing, but he has a right to make a living, and he was going to open his gym back up and do so. With that said, we do have classes where social distancing is not practiced. It is announced at the beginning of the class that we will not be observing social distancing, and anyone that would like to do so can be given modified techniques and practice area. They do take our temperatures when we come in, and do the procedural ask if you've been in contact with anybody, but that is one place that seems to be kind of getting back to normal.

Mormad said:

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Right now there are only 5 covid in our icus throughout our 5 hospitals, and only 1 on a vent.

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I had a question I wanted to ask the board about hospitalizations, but I forgot to include it at the end of my rant the other night on how state governments are using their power to snuff the life out of small businesses.

I would really appreciate any answers on this question and the other two I posted the other night.

On rising hospitalizations. Is there information on whether they were admitted for fever, trouble breathing or other symptoms of the virus? Is there information on the type of care each patient is receiving such as a breakdown of hospital admissions for symptoms or those requiring ICU care and ventelaters? Just curious how these new hospitalizations compare to ones from earlier in the pandemic.

Also, I would love some feedback on these questions that got buried a few pages back.

Does anyone know whether these covid tests can determine if the person contracted the virus two weeks ago or two months ago? Does this matter on whether the infected person can still spread the disease to others or not? Is there a point where an infected person is no longer contagious? If so, wouldn't this be important information to have regarding the new test results?

Also, any thoughts on a possible vaccine. The fact that no other coronaviruses has ever had a successful vaccine created in the past gives me pause. Why do so many medical professionals seem so positive about an upcoming vaccine being discovered when the history of similar viruses says otherwise?

I never see these questions asked by the media and was just curious if some on here had any answers or thoughts.

I am sure a lot of that data is available at the hospital level, I will defer to the experts on what data is available on a 'local' level. I assume if DHHS pressed a little they could probably get some of this out of the hospitals.

Regarding the summary survey briefs, the data is very generic, total COVID patients, # COVID ICU, total/available ventilators (not COVID specific), etc.

As far as I know the tests to determine if someone is COVID positive can not determine timeline. But again, not an expert.

Sidenote: Looks to be one of the biggest single case days out of Wake today.