PackBacker07 said:

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Ham sandwich reference.

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Just because it's worth noting exactly what John Fetterman looks like...

He's 6'8" I think? Not someone I'd want to **** around with.

packgrad said:

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Pacfanweb said:

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packgrad said:

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GoPack2008 said:

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This is some exceptionally weak and stupid whataboutism.

Voter suppression can be problematic but legal. That was the case for Abrams. She never alleged a law was broken, to my knowledge.

Trump is claiming people voted illegally.

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There is plenty of evidence of people voting illegally.

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Nowhere near enough to make a statistical difference, though. The outcome isn't what it is because of any fraud or anything else other than taking a few days to count all the votes and Trump not liking the outcome.

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Perhaps. 2008 thinks people did not vote illegally because Trump said they did. That is incorrect.

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LOL that isn't even close to what I said.

FWIW I agree with your previous post.

GoPack2008 said:

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DrummerboyWolf said:

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IseWolf22 said:

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caryking said:

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Civilized said:

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wolfman18 said:

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I feared "fraud" would be the theme of this election with some key states being so close.

One one hand, the president himself started the attack on voter fraud in the first debate, right? I think he said something about not accepting the results. From reports, Pubs have complicated things in some states not counting mail-in ballots until the end.

On the other hand, for 4 years, Dems along with the media have done everything they could do to get orange man out of office.

If the roles were reversed (Trump close win over biden), I think its fair Dems would be hollering about fraud or demanding recounts.

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Demanding recounts is fair game.

Dems hollering about fraud on Twitter? Probably. Twitter is full of idiots.

Any president - Dem or Pub - other than Trump embarrassing himself and our country the way Trump is tonight?

Nope, he's uniquely good at that.

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You know... Trump is rightfully pissed as to way he has been treated for four years. If the media was truly doing the proper job, we would probably see a more reasonable person. He predicted this and I believe he is seeing his prediction come true...

I guess he should just sit back and accept things as they are. I would be speaking out as well.

Somebody just needs to rationale the large swaths of ballots that have come in for one candidate.

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Did he predict it? Or did he just spend the 8+ months laying the groundwork to make claims of fraud, no matter what happened

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Or were the left, the media, the Dems, Big Tech et al laying the groundwork for a fraud election they could win by publishing fake polls which could lead to voter suppression, impeaching a President on no evidence at all, asking him about transferring power peacefully, mailing out millions of unrequested ballots? This is the Transition Integrity Project and it may work, but the one piece they did not count on was Ruth Bader Ginsburg dying.

This whole counting the "Ballots" is a fraud. Hey Joe when are you going to say you want all legal votes counted? Come on man? If you cannot see that this is a total sham, then you will never see it. I expect it from the people on the left here. You say you split your vote and didn't vote for Trump but voted for Tillis. Are you trusting the process?

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This is dangerous, baseless conspiracy theory nonsense.

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Yeah, just like all the Hunter Biden stuff, right? You guys are ridiculous...

GoPack2008 said:

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Packchem91 said:

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Its amazing to think back -- the South Carolina (which of course is a Red state) primary -- Joe Biden is dead in the water, flubbing his campaign, no momentum, behind the socialist wing of the party.

The Democratic party convinces all the other moderate candidates to suddenly drop out before Super Tuesday....because Biden they think is still the best candidate to beat Trump, and they have to stop Saunders, who would have never beaten Trump....and voila.

Its kind of ironic now that all the Left / Media is calling out Trump for trying to suppress the vote. They did pretty much the same thing by pulling all the candidates months ago. But I guess as long as its not Trump, its all good?

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Wha?

The evidence was clear that Biden was going to romp the rest of the way. Bernie's claim was he would drive turnout, but he wasn't doing that in the primaries.

Consolidating the party behind a single nominee is not...even remotely analogous to voter suppression.

Voter suppression is about making it harder to vote, for example closing polling places, understaffing/underfunding polling places in specific areas. Candidates agreeing to drop out and consolidate behind one nominee is none of that.

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How was it clear he was going to be the candidate? He'd struggled in 3 primaries before doing well in one?

I get its not the same as voter suppression -- but its certainly a powerful entity taking away diversity of vote from the voters to ensure the guy they wanted was going to be the primary choice.

Packchem91 said:

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GoPack2008 said:

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Packchem91 said:

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Its amazing to think back -- the South Carolina (which of course is a Red state) primary -- Joe Biden is dead in the water, flubbing his campaign, no momentum, behind the socialist wing of the party.

The Democratic party convinces all the other moderate candidates to suddenly drop out before Super Tuesday....because Biden they think is still the best candidate to beat Trump, and they have to stop Saunders, who would have never beaten Trump....and voila.

Its kind of ironic now that all the Left / Media is calling out Trump for trying to suppress the vote. They did pretty much the same thing by pulling all the candidates months ago. But I guess as long as its not Trump, its all good?

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Wha?

The evidence was clear that Biden was going to romp the rest of the way. Bernie's claim was he would drive turnout, but he wasn't doing that in the primaries.

Consolidating the party behind a single nominee is not...even remotely analogous to voter suppression.

Voter suppression is about making it harder to vote, for example closing polling places, understaffing/underfunding polling places in specific areas. Candidates agreeing to drop out and consolidate behind one nominee is none of that.

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How was it clear he was going to be the candidate? He'd struggled in 3 primaries before doing well in one?

I get its not the same as voter suppression -- but its certainly a powerful entity taking away diversity of vote from the voters to ensure the guy they wanted was going to be the primary choice.

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It was obvious when Biden trounced the field in South Carolina and had massive support from the African American community.

We can debate the machinations of the DNC for sure. But you did just try to compare that to voter suppression: "Its kind of ironic now that all the Left / Media is calling out Trump for trying to suppress the vote. They did pretty much the same thing by pulling all the candidates months ago. But I guess as long as its not Trump, its all good?"

That's just not true. They're not "pretty much the same thing." Voter suppression is a specific thing with a specific definition. Candidates withdrawing is not voter suppression, and it's not similar. That's all I'm saying.

IseWolf22 said:

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Packchem91 said:

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GoPack2008 said:

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Packchem91 said:

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Its amazing to think back -- the South Carolina (which of course is a Red state) primary -- Joe Biden is dead in the water, flubbing his campaign, no momentum, behind the socialist wing of the party.

The Democratic party convinces all the other moderate candidates to suddenly drop out before Super Tuesday....because Biden they think is still the best candidate to beat Trump, and they have to stop Saunders, who would have never beaten Trump....and voila.

Its kind of ironic now that all the Left / Media is calling out Trump for trying to suppress the vote. They did pretty much the same thing by pulling all the candidates months ago. But I guess as long as its not Trump, its all good?

---

Wha?

The evidence was clear that Biden was going to romp the rest of the way. Bernie's claim was he would drive turnout, but he wasn't doing that in the primaries.

Consolidating the party behind a single nominee is not...even remotely analogous to voter suppression.

Voter suppression is about making it harder to vote, for example closing polling places, understaffing/underfunding polling places in specific areas. Candidates agreeing to drop out and consolidate behind one nominee is none of that.

---

How was it clear he was going to be the candidate? He'd struggled in 3 primaries before doing well in one?

I get its not the same as voter suppression -- but its certainly a powerful entity taking away diversity of vote from the voters to ensure the guy they wanted was going to be the primary choice.

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DNC learned lessons from Trump's 2016 takeover of the GOP. Trump never had 50%+ support in the primaries, but he racked up wins against a fractured field with a solid base. If other candidates had cleared out earlier, he likely would not have won the nomination.
If you're a party official, it's completely reasonable to realize that Bernie is on track to do the same thing, and have a sit down with the moderate candidates. Discuss their chances and convince them they don't want their candidacy to end with Bernie as the nominee.

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Right, and you could argue this was the right call.

Trump campaign seemed to be prepared to run against Bernie and socialism and never managed to pivot away from that. DNC likely felt they could still rally the progressive wing behind Biden, AND that Biden would be able to persuade some 2016 Trump voters. In looking at key counties in PA, that seems to have been the correct call.

Trump drove unbelievable turnout in his base, to his credit. The Democrats needed to drive turnout and persuade some folks to win.

GoPack2008 said:

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packgrad said:

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GoPack2008 said:

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This is some exceptionally weak and stupid whataboutism.

Voter suppression can be problematic but legal. That was the case for Abrams. She never alleged a law was broken, to my knowledge.

Trump is claiming people voted illegally.

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There is plenty of evidence of people voting illegally.

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If that's the case, feel free to present your evidence.

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You know that there is an entire thread that is pages and pages long on election interference and fraud in the this election?

I would start there if you want find what you are looking for

I know some of you think this was all legitimate and needs to be over soon, but buckle up b/c it's not. There will be multiple recounts, lawsuits, challenges, etc.

Georgia just confirmed this morning that there will be a recount. Even with a slight Biden lead there are military ballots left to be counted that will probably put Trump back up by a couple thousand. But regardless... it's going for a recount. With republican control at the state level I do not know what is going on in and around Atlanta but it stinks to high heaven. Shame on leadership there if they don't have things under control. Hopefully it's transparent.

Michigan and Wisconsin need to be investigated. There is plenty of fraud evidence there. It's all over social media... Jack Dorsey is trying to delete but they can't get all of it. Recounts with transparency are necessary. Illegal ballots need to get thrown out.

Nevada... same deal. Looks like they've found some evidence there as well.

Arizona... I don't know if Trump ends up winning it but it looks like it's been trending his way.

Pennsylvania... don't even get me started.

Guys we've never seen something on this mass scale be so shady. Multiple states were not allowing poll watchers to accurately watch counting for transparency. You have people going home at 11 on election night and then some staying back and accepting truck loads of ballots at 4 am. Most ballots all for Biden with not down ballot voting. It's very strange. Turnout in urban areas that favor democrats were level in most major cities across the country but there happens to be a turnout surge in Milwaukee, Detroit, Philly, Atlanta. That is so convenient. Great targeted get out the vote effort? Doubtful.

Is Biden more popular than Obama was?

If you hate Trump fine... many do. It's possible Biden could still win legitimately. But I refuse to accept this as it is and I hope that we get a clear result with all LEGAL ballots at the end of this.

If a party can call a president illegitimate and a Russian agent, investigate it for 3 years, impeach him over a Ukraine phone call, ignore and even censor the Biden's over seas corruption, accuse a supreme court nominee of being a gang rapist, then why in god's name could they not rig an election?

Lastly the mail in is what gave us the opportunity for this cluster****. Ignoring election laws and changing things on the fly to invite this. We need true election reform going forward but I doubt we see it if the democrats are in control b/c it's clear they have never had an interest in transparency or clarity in our election process.

Packchem91 said:

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jadawson said:

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This election does not appear to have been a rebuke of the republican party. They still have a good chance of maintaining control of the Senate or atleast being evenly split, and they picked up seats in the House.

This is just a rebuke against Donald Trump and his divisive rhetoric and lack of a moral compass. There is nothing inspiring about Joe Biden as a candidate even for Democrats. He is not the reason there is a record number of ballots this election and nobody was excited to vote for him. He (will likely) win because he's not Donald Trump and people are tired of Trump and willing to come out in droves to vote for anyone that is not him. Much like in 2016 I think part of Trump's advantage was that he was not Hillary Clinton with all of her baggage, the same is true of him this time around.

The republican party just needs to do some self-analysis as to the direction they want to go. If they move back towards the center and get rid of the QAnon/conspiracy fringe that is seeping into control then i think they will find a lot more independents willing to go their way. Whether that happens or not is up in the air, they seem pretty satisfied with where they are right now outside of the results they are disputing.

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Post of the day. Even as a Republican, I am happy to be rid of Trump. He's disgusted me his entire career, was disappointed he was our nominee 4 years ago, and though I'm 100% glad Hillary was not our president, Trump has been to divisive to be put into the most important job in the world.

I hope Biden will reach out across the aisle, and I hope the GOP will find some viable young candidates who aren't there to appease the far right wings of the party. I'd much rather steal some of the moderate left than the far right.

And the evangelicals need to line up behind someone with morals next time.

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You do know that Biden quite literally said that he wanted to take Trump behind a gym and beat him during the 2016 election....right?

jadawson said:

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cowboypack02 said:

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Packchem91 said:

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jadawson said:

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This election does not appear to have been a rebuke of the republican party. They still have a good chance of maintaining control of the Senate or atleast being evenly split, and they picked up seats in the House.

This is just a rebuke against Donald Trump and his divisive rhetoric and lack of a moral compass. There is nothing inspiring about Joe Biden as a candidate even for Democrats. He is not the reason there is a record number of ballots this election and nobody was excited to vote for him. He (will likely) win because he's not Donald Trump and people are tired of Trump and willing to come out in droves to vote for anyone that is not him. Much like in 2016 I think part of Trump's advantage was that he was not Hillary Clinton with all of her baggage, the same is true of him this time around.

The republican party just needs to do some self-analysis as to the direction they want to go. If they move back towards the center and get rid of the QAnon/conspiracy fringe that is seeping into control then i think they will find a lot more independents willing to go their way. Whether that happens or not is up in the air, they seem pretty satisfied with where they are right now outside of the results they are disputing.

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Post of the day. Even as a Republican, I am happy to be rid of Trump. He's disgusted me his entire career, was disappointed he was our nominee 4 years ago, and though I'm 100% glad Hillary was not our president, Trump has been to divisive to be put into the most important job in the world.

I hope Biden will reach out across the aisle, and I hope the GOP will find some viable young candidates who aren't there to appease the far right wings of the party. I'd much rather steal some of the moderate left than the far right.

And the evangelicals need to line up behind someone with morals next time.

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You do know that Biden quite literally said that he wanted to take Trump behind a gym and beat him during the 2016 election....right?

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Ted Cruz said basically the same thing and yet worked directly with Trump the last 4 years.

Biden won't have to work with Trump either

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Packchem91 said:

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jadawson said:

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This election does not appear to have been a rebuke of the republican party. They still have a good chance of maintaining control of the Senate or atleast being evenly split, and they picked up seats in the House.

This is just a rebuke against Donald Trump and his divisive rhetoric and lack of a moral compass. There is nothing inspiring about Joe Biden as a candidate even for Democrats. He is not the reason there is a record number of ballots this election and nobody was excited to vote for him. He (will likely) win because he's not Donald Trump and people are tired of Trump and willing to come out in droves to vote for anyone that is not him. Much like in 2016 I think part of Trump's advantage was that he was not Hillary Clinton with all of her baggage, the same is true of him this time around.

The republican party just needs to do some self-analysis as to the direction they want to go. If they move back towards the center and get rid of the QAnon/conspiracy fringe that is seeping into control then i think they will find a lot more independents willing to go their way. Whether that happens or not is up in the air, they seem pretty satisfied with where they are right now outside of the results they are disputing.

---

Post of the day. Even as a Republican, I am happy to be rid of Trump. He's disgusted me his entire career, was disappointed he was our nominee 4 years ago, and though I'm 100% glad Hillary was not our president, Trump has been to divisive to be put into the most important job in the world.

I hope Biden will reach out across the aisle, and I hope the GOP will find some viable young candidates who aren't there to appease the far right wings of the party. I'd much rather steal some of the moderate left than the far right.

And the evangelicals need to line up behind someone with morals next time.

---

There is going to be post mortems in both parties and their will be major fights over the direction of the party.

The close loss gives Trumpism a leg to stand on when they argue that Republicans should embrace nationalism, and the culture war. Serious voices on the right want to reject classical liberalism and embrace us vs. them tactics to "win" the direction of the country. Trump isn't going away. Don Jr. will try to stay a voice in the party, and might run in 2024 or possibly for something like a senate seat. Cotton, Hawley, Gaetz, etc. will try to stay in this mold.
Instead the GOP should embrace moderates, minorities, and libertarians. Pursue small government solutions and focus on solutions that make the system more fair for everyone. Hailey, Kaisch, and others will represent that wing.

Democrats will also have their own series of fights. Already the Bernie wing is blaming Biden and moderate democrats for not winning the Senate. They are moral crusaders and wont just fall in line behind Pelosi.

I WANT A HAILEY/SCOTT TICKET IN 2024. Ain't a damn soul here who couldn't support that ticket. And if you don't, then you are a racist and a bigot! Rant over

GoPack2008 said:

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ncsualum05 said:

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I know some of you think this was all legitimate and needs to be over soon, but buckle up b/c it's not. There will be multiple recounts, lawsuits, challenges, etc.

Georgia just confirmed this morning that there will be a recount. Even with a slight Biden lead there are military ballots left to be counted that will probably put Trump back up by a couple thousand. But regardless... it's going for a recount. With republican control at the state level I do not know what is going on in and around Atlanta but it stinks to high heaven. Shame on leadership there if they don't have things under control. Hopefully it's transparent.

Michigan and Wisconsin need to be investigated. There is plenty of fraud evidence there. It's all over social media... Jack Dorsey is trying to delete but they can't get all of it. Recounts with transparency are necessary. Illegal ballots need to get thrown out.

Nevada... same deal. Looks like they've found some evidence there as well.

Arizona... I don't know if Trump ends up winning it but it looks like it's been trending his way.

Pennsylvania... don't even get me started.

Guys we've never seen something on this mass scale be so shady. Multiple states were not allowing poll watchers to accurately watch counting for transparency. You have people going home at 11 on election night and then some staying back and accepting truck loads of ballots at 4 am. Most ballots all for Biden with not down ballot voting. It's very strange. Turnout in urban areas that favor democrats were level in most major cities across the country but there happens to be a turnout surge in Milwaukee, Detroit, Philly, Atlanta. That is so convenient. Great targeted get out the vote effort? Doubtful.

Is Biden more popular than Obama was?

If you hate Trump fine... many do. It's possible Biden could still win legitimately. But I refuse to accept this as it is and I hope that we get a clear result with all LEGAL ballots at the end of this.

If a party can call a president illegitimate and a Russian agent, investigate it for 3 years, impeach him over a Ukraine phone call, ignore and even censor the Biden's over seas corruption, accuse a supreme court nominee of being a gang rapist, then why in god's name could they not rig an election?

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More dangerous nonsense because you can't accept reality. Your dude lost.

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More dangerous nonsense because you can't accept reality. Neither have lost yet.

GoPack2008 said:

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caryking said:

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GoPack2008 said:

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caryking said:

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Civilized said:

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wolfman18 said:

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I feared "fraud" would be the theme of this election with some key states being so close.

One one hand, the president himself started the attack on voter fraud in the first debate, right? I think he said something about not accepting the results. From reports, Pubs have complicated things in some states not counting mail-in ballots until the end.

On the other hand, for 4 years, Dems along with the media have done everything they could do to get orange man out of office.

If the roles were reversed (Trump close win over biden), I think its fair Dems would be hollering about fraud or demanding recounts.

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Demanding recounts is fair game.

Dems hollering about fraud on Twitter? Probably. Twitter is full of idiots.

Any president - Dem or Pub - other than Trump embarrassing himself and our country the way Trump is tonight?

Nope, he's uniquely good at that.

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You know... Trump is rightfully pissed as to way he has been treated for four years. If the media was truly doing the proper job, we would probably see a more reasonable person. He predicted this and I believe he is seeing his prediction come true...

I guess he should just sit back and accept things as they are. I would be speaking out as well.

Somebody just needs to rationale the large swaths of ballots that have come in for one candidate.

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Why is it not Trump's responsibility to be a reasonable person?

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Even if Trump was not reasonable, you would probably have a problem with what and how he says.

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You didn't answer my question.

He's entitled to feel treated unfairly. That's fine. It's his right as a person. But the dude is president. He's not some sort of victim here.

This whole thing is absurd. All of the ballots in question arrived within the required time frame. In Arizona, the last ballots to be counted might give Trump a victory. In PA, the last batch is likely to give Biden a victory. You can't have it both ways. There's even more ballots that could arrive from our servicemen overseas. They should be counted, too. This is just how our system works, and Trump is having a dangerous tantrum because he's losing.

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Trump is Trump. I'm not sure how you think I didn't answer the question. People have opinions of what is reasonable. I'll be more than happy to get into a debate on what's reasonable On any subject; however, it will be our opinion.

I don't know whether feels like a victim or nor. Actually, you don't either. If you think he hasn't been a punching bag the last four years, well, we probably have different views.

As far as ballots, I don't know whether they are within the laws of each state or not. Actually, you don't either.

Your entire arguments are based on emotion; rather then facts. Look at your statements and tell us all how you have the facts you espouse.

Much like with UNC-CHeat - it appears that cheating works and works well.

IseWolf22 said:

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Packchem91 said:

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jadawson said:

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This election does not appear to have been a rebuke of the republican party. They still have a good chance of maintaining control of the Senate or atleast being evenly split, and they picked up seats in the House.

This is just a rebuke against Donald Trump and his divisive rhetoric and lack of a moral compass. There is nothing inspiring about Joe Biden as a candidate even for Democrats. He is not the reason there is a record number of ballots this election and nobody was excited to vote for him. He (will likely) win because he's not Donald Trump and people are tired of Trump and willing to come out in droves to vote for anyone that is not him. Much like in 2016 I think part of Trump's advantage was that he was not Hillary Clinton with all of her baggage, the same is true of him this time around.

The republican party just needs to do some self-analysis as to the direction they want to go. If they move back towards the center and get rid of the QAnon/conspiracy fringe that is seeping into control then i think they will find a lot more independents willing to go their way. Whether that happens or not is up in the air, they seem pretty satisfied with where they are right now outside of the results they are disputing.

---

Post of the day. Even as a Republican, I am happy to be rid of Trump. He's disgusted me his entire career, was disappointed he was our nominee 4 years ago, and though I'm 100% glad Hillary was not our president, Trump has been to divisive to be put into the most important job in the world.

I hope Biden will reach out across the aisle, and I hope the GOP will find some viable young candidates who aren't there to appease the far right wings of the party. I'd much rather steal some of the moderate left than the far right.

And the evangelicals need to line up behind someone with morals next time.

---

There is going to be post mortems in both parties and their will be major fights over the direction of the party.

The close loss gives Trumpism a leg to stand on when they argue that Republicans should embrace nationalism, and the culture war. Serious voices on the right want to reject classical liberalism and embrace us vs. them tactics to "win" the direction of the country. Trump isn't going away. Don Jr. will try to stay a voice in the party, and might run in 2024 or possibly for something like a senate seat. Cotton, Hawley, Gaetz, etc. will try to stay in this mold.
Instead the GOP should embrace moderates, minorities, and libertarians. Pursue small government solutions and focus on solutions that make the system more fair for everyone. Hailey, Kaisch, and others will represent that wing.

Democrats will also have their own series of fights. Already the Bernie wing is blaming Biden and moderate democrats for not winning the Senate. They are moral crusaders and wont just fall in line behind Pelosi.

---

100%

Heard a recap yesterday of a House Democrat conference call that lasted over three hours and was incredibly contentious. Huge schism between the far left socialism wing and mainstream/moderates. Basically the moderates were absolutely livid the right was able to so successfully seize on the anti-socialism theme so successfully up and down-ballot. The right being able to do so clearly cost the Dems the Senate and a more resounding House majority. It was actually discussed that no one in the party should ever use the word 'socialism' again.

There's a recognition with moderate Dems that far left, socialism rhetoric damages the party brand.

Dems have a tough slog ahead but theirs is a marriage of convenience to a large extent; the party has always been more of a coalition of partially overlapping interests rather than a highly unified base.

This election may quickly be viewed by the right as best case scenario. They get rid of their Trump problem, maintain control of the Senate (probably), and win back a meaningful number of House seats so Biden is quite limited in his ability to facilitate the left's agenda from the Oval Office. Regroup, and emerge stronger and more united in 2024.

packgrad said:

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GoPack2008 said:

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This is some exceptionally weak and stupid whataboutism.

Voter suppression can be problematic but legal. That was the case for Abrams. She never alleged a law was broken, to my knowledge.

Trump is claiming people voted illegally.

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There is plenty of evidence of people voting illegally.

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I have no idea that people voted illegally anywhere in the country. I do think the Trump group needs to put up the info, at some point, or this will be a bunch of nothing. So, when they go to the courts, they will have to show irregularities in order to win the suit.

Do we have things that look like they stink? Well, based on hearsay, I would agree. I just don't think, in reality, we are going to see them play out for Trump.

Packchem91 said:

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Its amazing to think back -- the South Carolina (which of course is a Red state) primary -- Joe Biden is dead in the water, flubbing his campaign, no momentum, behind the socialist wing of the party.

The Democratic party convinces all the other moderate candidates to suddenly drop out before Super Tuesday....because Biden they think is still the best candidate to beat Trump, and they have to stop Saunders, who would have never beaten Trump....and voila.

Its kind of ironic now that all the Left / Media is calling out Trump for trying to suppress the vote. They did pretty much the same thing by pulling all the candidates months ago. But I guess as long as its not Trump, its all good?

---

Former SC Senator Strom Thurman ended up loving Joe Biden, former SC Senator Fritz Hollings was Joe Biden's best friend in the Senate, SC Senator Lindsey Graham was a really good friend of Joe Biden (my guess is he'll get back there again?). When Lindsey got to the Senate, he wanted to learn the ropes and visit other governments and learn how to deal with them. Joe can I go with you to xxxxx; sure Lindsey. You've seen the Thank You Jesus signs pop up in rural America when Trump beat Hilary; God laid his hands on SC Representative Jim Clyburn.

As far as what Democrats did to win the Presidency...dah.

Civilized said:

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IseWolf22 said:

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Packchem91 said:

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jadawson said:

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This election does not appear to have been a rebuke of the republican party. They still have a good chance of maintaining control of the Senate or atleast being evenly split, and they picked up seats in the House.

This is just a rebuke against Donald Trump and his divisive rhetoric and lack of a moral compass. There is nothing inspiring about Joe Biden as a candidate even for Democrats. He is not the reason there is a record number of ballots this election and nobody was excited to vote for him. He (will likely) win because he's not Donald Trump and people are tired of Trump and willing to come out in droves to vote for anyone that is not him. Much like in 2016 I think part of Trump's advantage was that he was not Hillary Clinton with all of her baggage, the same is true of him this time around.

The republican party just needs to do some self-analysis as to the direction they want to go. If they move back towards the center and get rid of the QAnon/conspiracy fringe that is seeping into control then i think they will find a lot more independents willing to go their way. Whether that happens or not is up in the air, they seem pretty satisfied with where they are right now outside of the results they are disputing.

---

Post of the day. Even as a Republican, I am happy to be rid of Trump. He's disgusted me his entire career, was disappointed he was our nominee 4 years ago, and though I'm 100% glad Hillary was not our president, Trump has been to divisive to be put into the most important job in the world.

I hope Biden will reach out across the aisle, and I hope the GOP will find some viable young candidates who aren't there to appease the far right wings of the party. I'd much rather steal some of the moderate left than the far right.

And the evangelicals need to line up behind someone with morals next time.

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There is going to be post mortems in both parties and their will be major fights over the direction of the party.

The close loss gives Trumpism a leg to stand on when they argue that Republicans should embrace nationalism, and the culture war. Serious voices on the right want to reject classical liberalism and embrace us vs. them tactics to "win" the direction of the country. Trump isn't going away. Don Jr. will try to stay a voice in the party, and might run in 2024 or possibly for something like a senate seat. Cotton, Hawley, Gaetz, etc. will try to stay in this mold.
Instead the GOP should embrace moderates, minorities, and libertarians. Pursue small government solutions and focus on solutions that make the system more fair for everyone. Hailey, Kaisch, and others will represent that wing.

Democrats will also have their own series of fights. Already the Bernie wing is blaming Biden and moderate democrats for not winning the Senate. They are moral crusaders and wont just fall in line behind Pelosi.

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100%

Heard a recap yesterday of a House Democrat conference call that lasted over three hours and was incredibly contentious. Huge schism between the far left socialism wing and mainstream/moderates. Basically the moderates were absolutely livid the right was able to so successfully seize on the anti-socialism theme so successfully up and down-ballot. The right being able to do so clearly cost the Dems the Senate and a more resounding House majority. It was actually discussed that no one in the party should ever use the word 'socialism' again.

There's a recognition with moderate Dems that far left, socialism rhetoric damages the party brand.

Dems have a tough slog ahead but theirs is a marriage of convenience to a large extent; the party has always been more of a coalition of partially overlapping interests rather than a highly unified base.

This election may quickly be viewed by the right as best case scenario. They get rid of their Trump problem, maintain control of the Senate (probably), and win back a meaningful number of House seats so Biden is quite limited in his ability to facilitate the left's agenda from the Oval Office. Regroup, and emerge stronger and more united in 2024.

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If true, you would think that would have hurt Biden as he was in the middle of it all. I have an OPINION on what's happened:

• Biden wins because enough people just dislikes Trump
• Senate stays Republican (it it holds) because people didn't really like The Democrats push to the left
• House Republicans will gain significant seats (if it holds) because people didn't really like the Democrats push to the left

What I don't understand is the number of votes Trump actually received if he is so disliked. If I'm not mistaken, Trump is going to receive more votes than Obama in either election (please check me on this).

So, how did we get so many people voting? This country is divided, but Damn, this appears to be a big turn-out. I guess that's a good thing...

caryking said:

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packgrad said:

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GoPack2008 said:

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This is some exceptionally weak and stupid whataboutism.

Voter suppression can be problematic but legal. That was the case for Abrams. She never alleged a law was broken, to my knowledge.

Trump is claiming people voted illegally.

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There is plenty of evidence of people voting illegally.

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I have no idea that people voted illegally anywhere in the country. I do think the Trump group needs to put up the info, at some point, or this will be a bunch of nothing. So, when they go to the courts, they will have to show irregularities in order to win the suit.

Do we have things that look like they stink? Well, based on hearsay, I would agree. I just don't think, in reality, we are going to see them play out for Trump.

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Agreed. The only thing we have anywhere with all of these accusations are what our subscribed story tellers decide to tell us. The lawsuits and recounts will bear it all out.

Trump has always thrown a lot of **** at the wall in regards to corruption in the media and in DC. A lot has stuck. Guess we'll see in the coming days.

Steve Williams said:

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On the one hand I have to give Trump credit. On a national scale you basically had Trump, Carlson, Hannity, Ingrahm and Limbaugh versus Twitter, Google, Yahoo, Apple, MSN, CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, NPR, MSNBC and some of Fox. The deck was so stacked against him and still, with anti-Trump rhetoric shoved down the throats of Americans for the last four years, he still damned near won. I voted almost straight Republican despite being a registered Democrat simply because I don't want a nation where talking heads and media can dictate the direction of our country.

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Unfortunately, Steve, that is the issue we have in this country.