Civilized said:

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packofwolves said:

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Civilized said:

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hokiewolf said:

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nah man, we got to normalize relations with Russia, screw Europe, they're not grateful!

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DADDY GETS VERY ANGRY WHEN YOU DON'T SAY THANK YOU

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I think it has more to do with Zelensky doubling down on stupid saying the end of the war is far far away. Basically saying Ukraine is in it for the long haul and peace deal be damned.

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Zelensky acting like he's ready to quit fighting does nothing for his negotiating position.

I'm sure he wants peace and for the fighting to end but it doesn't serve him or Ukraine well to just fold. If he does that he's negotiating against himself and emboldening Putin to do it again when he gets an itchy trigger finger.

He needs compromises, and he doesn't get that by groveling and saying he's calling off the troops in a couple of weeks.

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That's an interesting point. I still don't like how any of this is going and damned sure hope there are behind-the-scenes things happening that would be more encouraging. The whole thing smacks too much of forcing Czechoslovakia to yield the Sudetenland, for my liking.

Oldsouljer said:

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packgrad said:

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I hope Trump takes Z and Europe out of the equation altogether and negotiates an end to the war with Putin alone. The head exploding would be next level.

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I'm not clear on precisely what leverage Trump has to get a single thing out of Putin. Or perhaps I should say, what leverage is there that he is willing to employ to get a cease-fire from Putin.

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I don't know. Wishful thinking perhaps. Zelensky doesn't exist without us. Perhaps we negotiate on Ukraines behalf and then let Z know the details after. Take it or leave it. Trump has definitely made it clear he thinks Ukraine needs new leadership.

Civilized said:

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packofwolves said:

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Civilized said:

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hokiewolf said:

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nah man, we got to normalize relations with Russia, screw Europe, they're not grateful!

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DADDY GETS VERY ANGRY WHEN YOU DON'T SAY THANK YOU

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I think it has more to do with Zelensky doubling down on stupid saying the end of the war is far far away. Basically saying Ukraine is in it for the long haul and peace deal be damned.

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Zelensky acting like he's ready to quit fighting does nothing for his negotiating position.

I'm sure he wants peace and for the fighting to end but it doesn't serve him or Ukraine well to just fold. If he does that he's negotiating against himself and emboldening Putin to do it again when he gets an itchy trigger finger.

He needs compromises, and he doesn't get that by groveling and saying he's calling off the troops in a couple of weeks.

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He didn't need to make the comment.

jkpackfan said:

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packofwolves said:

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Civilized said:

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hokiewolf said:

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nah man, we got to normalize relations with Russia, screw Europe, they're not grateful!

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DADDY GETS VERY ANGRY WHEN YOU DON'T SAY THANK YOU

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I think it has more to do with Zelensky doubling down on stupid saying the end of the war is far far away. Basically saying Ukraine is in it for the long haul and peace deal be damned.

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Yep that dudes an idiot. Good luck fighting it without US support.

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Actually, it looks like Trump's tirade was a massive gift to Zelenskyy. Europe is in a pretty serious "fu** America" mood now, which all but guarantees they'll be rolling EU troops into Ukraine sooner rather than later. And if Germany decides they want Crimea back, watch them take it.

Russia can kiss Ukraine goodbye.

packgrad said:

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Who could it have been? Obama's people here? Our "friends/allies" in NATO? But we have propagandists saying there was an "ambush".

Wow. The minerals deal with Ukraine was a done deal before Zelensky came to the White House. Then he acted like an ungrateful toddler and the whole thing blew up.

Who advised him to push back against Trump and Vance at the last minute? pic.twitter.com/wXSMvLB682

— Libs of TikTok (@libsoftiktok) March 4, 2025

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Nice try, Orwell.

Trump wanted to just wholesale take Ukraine's minerals as "payment", remember? That was the deal he wanted. But then the Europeans got involved and turned it into the current "rebuilding" deal.

Trump found a way out.

packofwolves said:

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packgrad said:

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Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Question for you master negotiators, why wouldn't Trump negotiate with Russia like this: Stop your advancement on Ukraine and come work towards peace, or the US will send another $200B in military aid to Ukraine. How is that a weaker negotiating tactic? How is that extending the war since Russia wants to stop fighting (allegedly)?

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Question for the plagiarist, why do you pretend you have any idea what Trump has said to Russia? Why are you ok spending another $200B for more people to die? Is your hatred/derangement for Trump worth such a large loss of life?

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Trump saying crazy **** and using extreme anchoring is probably his favorite negotiating tactic, even if it pisses off all our friends and allies in the process.

Canada/51st state; buying Greenland; forcibly taking the Panama Canal; and indefinite tariffs are all examples of things Trump almost certainly won't do despite threatening to initially.

Why is that OK, but it's not OK for the US and NATO nations to use a similar tactic while aligned with each other and negotiating against Putin?

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Are you a plagiarist too? What does this hysterical rant have to do with what I posted?

The EU doesn't want to end the war. We do. He was voted in to end the war. Not by you. You want to continue to let millions die because you don't want Trump, and thereby America, to be successful. Trump won and is following through on all of his campaign promises. EU leadership wants to keep letting Ukraine lose and America helping foot the bill. We, the winners of the election, don't want that. **** Europe. If they want war, they can have it without our help. Democrats used to want to end war. But then Trump decided he wanted to end wars too, and now Dems don't want wars to end. So interesting....

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The tough EU, who spent more money on Russian fossil fuels than they loaned Ukraine in 2024.

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Lol, you guys really are numbskulls. The EU has a GDP on par with ours and China's. We liked having them dependent on us. Now the new German chancellor just declared that EU independence from us ASAP is his top priority. We probably just birthed a new global superpower this week.

Putin invading Ukraine was a huge blunder. Playing games with his boy Trump trying to weaken the West and inadvertently convincing the EU to militarize is a catastrophic blunder.

packgrad said:

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Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Question for you master negotiators, why wouldn't Trump negotiate with Russia like this: Stop your advancement on Ukraine and come work towards peace, or the US will send another $200B in military aid to Ukraine. How is that a weaker negotiating tactic? How is that extending the war since Russia wants to stop fighting (allegedly)?

---

Question for the plagiarist, why do you pretend you have any idea what Trump has said to Russia? Why are you ok spending another $200B for more people to die? Is your hatred/derangement for Trump worth such a large loss of life?

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Trump saying crazy **** and using extreme anchoring is probably his favorite negotiating tactic, even if it pisses off all our friends and allies in the process.

Canada/51st state; buying Greenland; forcibly taking the Panama Canal; and indefinite tariffs are all examples of things Trump almost certainly won't do despite threatening to initially.

Why is that OK, but it's not OK for the US and NATO nations to use a similar tactic while aligned with each other and negotiating against Putin?

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Are you a plagiarist too? What does this hysterical rant have to do with what I posted?

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Just because you stake out an initial position in a negotiation, doesn't mean you want to do it. You're just trying to create leverage.

What do you think Trump should do to apply pressure to Putin?

Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Question for you master negotiators, why wouldn't Trump negotiate with Russia like this: Stop your advancement on Ukraine and come work towards peace, or the US will send another $200B in military aid to Ukraine. How is that a weaker negotiating tactic? How is that extending the war since Russia wants to stop fighting (allegedly)?

---

Question for the plagiarist, why do you pretend you have any idea what Trump has said to Russia? Why are you ok spending another $200B for more people to die? Is your hatred/derangement for Trump worth such a large loss of life?

---

Trump saying crazy **** and using extreme anchoring is probably his favorite negotiating tactic, even if it pisses off all our friends and allies in the process.

Canada/51st state; buying Greenland; forcibly taking the Panama Canal; and indefinite tariffs are all examples of things Trump almost certainly won't do despite threatening to initially.

Why is that OK, but it's not OK for the US and NATO nations to use a similar tactic while aligned with each other and negotiating against Putin?

---

Are you a plagiarist too? What does this hysterical rant have to do with what I posted?

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Just because you stake out an initial position in a negotiation, doesn't mean you want to do it. You're just trying to create leverage.

What do you think Trump should do to apply pressure to Putin?

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Maybe Trump pausing aid is intended to try and do that exact thing, who knows. The fact is you guys have no clue what is being discussed behind the scenes but you sure think you're the experts.

SmaptyWolf said:

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packofwolves said:

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packgrad said:

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Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Question for you master negotiators, why wouldn't Trump negotiate with Russia like this: Stop your advancement on Ukraine and come work towards peace, or the US will send another $200B in military aid to Ukraine. How is that a weaker negotiating tactic? How is that extending the war since Russia wants to stop fighting (allegedly)?

---

Question for the plagiarist, why do you pretend you have any idea what Trump has said to Russia? Why are you ok spending another $200B for more people to die? Is your hatred/derangement for Trump worth such a large loss of life?

---

Trump saying crazy **** and using extreme anchoring is probably his favorite negotiating tactic, even if it pisses off all our friends and allies in the process.

Canada/51st state; buying Greenland; forcibly taking the Panama Canal; and indefinite tariffs are all examples of things Trump almost certainly won't do despite threatening to initially.

Why is that OK, but it's not OK for the US and NATO nations to use a similar tactic while aligned with each other and negotiating against Putin?

---

Are you a plagiarist too? What does this hysterical rant have to do with what I posted?

The EU doesn't want to end the war. We do. He was voted in to end the war. Not by you. You want to continue to let millions die because you don't want Trump, and thereby America, to be successful. Trump won and is following through on all of his campaign promises. EU leadership wants to keep letting Ukraine lose and America helping foot the bill. We, the winners of the election, don't want that. **** Europe. If they want war, they can have it without our help. Democrats used to want to end war. But then Trump decided he wanted to end wars too, and now Dems don't want wars to end. So interesting....

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The tough EU, who spent more money on Russian fossil fuels than they loaned Ukraine in 2024.

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Lol, you guys really are numbskulls. The EU has a GDP on par with ours and China's. We liked having them dependent on us. Now the new German chancellor just declared that EU independence from us ASAP is his top priority. We probably just birthed a new global superpower this week.

Putin invading Ukraine was a huge blunder. Playing games with his boy Trump trying to weaken the West and inadvertently convincing the EU to militarize is a catastrophic blunder.

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Interesting twist in this weird geopolitical menage a trois, huh?

Niall Ferguson had an interesting point on this topic in a pod I was listening to. He was saying that for decades Europe hasn't paid their share of their own protection as Trump has long complained. But the irony is that the US sending unmistakable signals the era of allowing Europe to free ride on our defense budget may be over, has the ripple effect of a remilitarized and more independent Europe.

There are obvious benefits and risks to a more heavily armed and independent Europe. We have no way of knowing right now whether it makes us more or less safe; the only thing we know is that it is a dramatic departure from what we've known the last 80 years.

jkpackfan said:

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Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Question for you master negotiators, why wouldn't Trump negotiate with Russia like this: Stop your advancement on Ukraine and come work towards peace, or the US will send another $200B in military aid to Ukraine. How is that a weaker negotiating tactic? How is that extending the war since Russia wants to stop fighting (allegedly)?

---

Question for the plagiarist, why do you pretend you have any idea what Trump has said to Russia? Why are you ok spending another $200B for more people to die? Is your hatred/derangement for Trump worth such a large loss of life?

---

Trump saying crazy **** and using extreme anchoring is probably his favorite negotiating tactic, even if it pisses off all our friends and allies in the process.

Canada/51st state; buying Greenland; forcibly taking the Panama Canal; and indefinite tariffs are all examples of things Trump almost certainly won't do despite threatening to initially.

Why is that OK, but it's not OK for the US and NATO nations to use a similar tactic while aligned with each other and negotiating against Putin?

---

Are you a plagiarist too? What does this hysterical rant have to do with what I posted?

---

Just because you stake out an initial position in a negotiation, doesn't mean you want to do it. You're just trying to create leverage.

What do you think Trump should do to apply pressure to Putin?

---

Maybe Trump pausing aid is intended to try and do that exact thing, who knows. The fact is you guys have no clue what is being discussed behind the scenes but you sure think you're the experts.

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No, people are making judgments about what they can see with their own two eyes, and what we all see looks like a complete clown show.

As is the case with everything Trump does, it's impossible to separate the signal from the noise because of all the juvenile chaos surrounding him all the time.

Lol riiiight.

Wolfblood said:

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Heh! A new EU military superpower lead by Germany, France and the UK that even the United States will fear. That's hilarious. That made me laugh.

Oh, you guys are being serious?

How does the EU pay for this new superpower military? They can't even afford or care enough to meet their current NATO obligations.

Do they even have the industrial capabilities to build and maintain fighter jets, tanks, battleships and other necessary military equipment?

Hell, I hope they pull it off. They need to protect their own continent anyway. Go for it EU.

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In 2024:
U.S. GDP = $28 trillion
E.U. (+ U.K.) GDP = $22 trillion
China GDP = $18 trillion
Russia GDP = $2 trillion <== SAD TROMBONE

We're afraid of China for some reason. Thankfully we're re-orienting ourselves toward Russia and telling Europe to get fuc*ed. That should really help! Russia, that is.

Civilized said:

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jkpackfan said:

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Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Question for you master negotiators, why wouldn't Trump negotiate with Russia like this: Stop your advancement on Ukraine and come work towards peace, or the US will send another $200B in military aid to Ukraine. How is that a weaker negotiating tactic? How is that extending the war since Russia wants to stop fighting (allegedly)?

---

Question for the plagiarist, why do you pretend you have any idea what Trump has said to Russia? Why are you ok spending another $200B for more people to die? Is your hatred/derangement for Trump worth such a large loss of life?

---

Trump saying crazy **** and using extreme anchoring is probably his favorite negotiating tactic, even if it pisses off all our friends and allies in the process.

Canada/51st state; buying Greenland; forcibly taking the Panama Canal; and indefinite tariffs are all examples of things Trump almost certainly won't do despite threatening to initially.

Why is that OK, but it's not OK for the US and NATO nations to use a similar tactic while aligned with each other and negotiating against Putin?

---

Are you a plagiarist too? What does this hysterical rant have to do with what I posted?

---

Just because you stake out an initial position in a negotiation, doesn't mean you want to do it. You're just trying to create leverage.

What do you think Trump should do to apply pressure to Putin?

---

Maybe Trump pausing aid is intended to try and do that exact thing, who knows. The fact is you guys have no clue what is being discussed behind the scenes but you sure think you're the experts.

---

No, people are making judgments about what they can see with their own two eyes, and what we all see looks like a complete clown show.

As is the case with everything Trump does, it's impossible to separate the signal from the noise because of all the juvenile chaos surrounding him all the time.

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That's the TDS. Seek help.