Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

As far as your birth rate info, we don't need anything. We have people sitting without jobs, as it stands. Just go look into any impoverished area and look at the people sitting on their porch…. These illegal immigrants are coming here and taking those jobs away. We, as a society demonize those people; however, the US Government along with elite money, took this jobs away from them.

So, right now, we don't need anymore immigration. We need for the current unemployed to take those jobs, whether white or blue collar…

---

The mythical porch-sitters would have all the construction work they can handle if they wanted to go into the industry.

There is a chronic labor shortage in construction for both skilled and unskilled workers despite 15% of the American construction workforce being undocumented (second by proportion only to agriculture).

The jobs are still out there.

---

Hate to break it to you, Civ... but they aren't mythical. I know exactly where cary is talking about without even having to verify it. But then again, I haven't spent my entire adult life in just the Raleigh-Durham corridor like you probably have.

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

As far as your birth rate info, we don't need anything. We have people sitting without jobs, as it stands. Just go look into any impoverished area and look at the people sitting on their porch…. These illegal immigrants are coming here and taking those jobs away. We, as a society demonize those people; however, the US Government along with elite money, took this jobs away from them.

So, right now, we don't need anymore immigration. We need for the current unemployed to take those jobs, whether white or blue collar…

---

The mythical porch-sitters would have all the construction work they can handle if they wanted to go into the industry.

There is a chronic labor shortage in construction for both skilled and unskilled workers despite 15% of the American construction workforce being undocumented (second by proportion only to agriculture).

The jobs are still out there.

---

Isn't it a little more nuanced than that, Civ?

I'm not saying that porch sitters are that answer 100%. That said, we have to start somewhere. Remember, the jobs that 15% are taking, come only from non-working American Citizens! Anyway you shake this out, it's true! What's missing are the skills, mental aspect, etc to get them back engaged in the workforce.

Pay attention to the unemployment numbers, each month. Inside those number are the people that are no longer, in the workforce numbers. That's a start!

Unfortunately, this country went through a time where a college degree was dang near a requirement for work. I don't know what requirement is needed in your industry; however, when I grew up, in Cary, while looking at your industry (because I've always enjoyed looking at housing construction) most of the sub-contractors were either white or Black.

Those people had small businesses and employed others. By the time I bought my first house, the foundation subs were starting to be Hispanic, where they used to be Black. That transformation happened slowly; however, very effectively.

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

As far as your birth rate info, we don't need anything. We have people sitting without jobs, as it stands. Just go look into any impoverished area and look at the people sitting on their porch…. These illegal immigrants are coming here and taking those jobs away. We, as a society demonize those people; however, the US Government along with elite money, took this jobs away from them.

So, right now, we don't need anymore immigration. We need for the current unemployed to take those jobs, whether white or blue collar…

---

The mythical porch-sitters would have all the construction work they can handle if they wanted to go into the industry.

There is a chronic labor shortage in construction for both skilled and unskilled workers despite 15% of the American construction workforce being undocumented (second by proportion only to agriculture).

The jobs are still out there.

---

Isn't it a little more nuanced than that, Civ?

I'm not saying that porch sitters are that answer 100%. That said, we have to start somewhere. Remember, the jobs that 15% are taking, come only from non-working American Citizens! Anyway you shake this out, it's true! What's missing are the skills, mental aspect, etc to get them back engaged in the workforce.

Pay attention to the unemployment numbers, each month. Inside those number are the people that are no longer, in the workforce numbers. That's a start!

Unfortunately, this country went through a time where a college degree was dang near a requirement for work. I don't know what requirement is needed in your industry; however, when I grew up, in Cary, while looking at your industry (because I've always enjoyed looking at housing construction) most of the sub-contractors were either white or Black.

Those people had small businesses and employed others. By the time I bought my first house, the foundation subs were starting to be Hispanic, where they used to be Black. That transformation happened slowly; however, very effectively.

---

The argument about the jobs in construction being "taken" from non-working American citizens is moot unless and until there isn't a gross undersupply of labor in the industry. There are still so many jobs in the construction industry available. American citizens' ability to find consequential, good-paying work in the industry is not limited consequentially by the proportion of undocumented workers in the industry at this time.

Agree that we need to (and to some extent, already are) pivot hard from a near-exclusive focus on 4-year degrees as being the path for most kids out of high school. Trade and vocational schools and community college programs need to be re-emphasized.

You still see a lot of black masons and concrete and utility guys in the Raleigh market. Regardless, increases of housing affordability and American prosperity in historically underemployed segments of our society require that we continue finding ways to encourage and enable American kids of all backgrounds coming out of high school to enter vocational trades that provide a much higher rate of pay and much better business ownership opportunities than so many other fields.

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

As far as your birth rate info, we don't need anything. We have people sitting without jobs, as it stands. Just go look into any impoverished area and look at the people sitting on their porch…. These illegal immigrants are coming here and taking those jobs away. We, as a society demonize those people; however, the US Government along with elite money, took this jobs away from them.

So, right now, we don't need anymore immigration. We need for the current unemployed to take those jobs, whether white or blue collar…

---

The mythical porch-sitters would have all the construction work they can handle if they wanted to go into the industry.

There is a chronic labor shortage in construction for both skilled and unskilled workers despite 15% of the American construction workforce being undocumented (second by proportion only to agriculture).

The jobs are still out there.

---

Isn't it a little more nuanced than that, Civ?

I'm not saying that porch sitters are that answer 100%. That said, we have to start somewhere. Remember, the jobs that 15% are taking, come only from non-working American Citizens! Anyway you shake this out, it's true! What's missing are the skills, mental aspect, etc to get them back engaged in the workforce.

Pay attention to the unemployment numbers, each month. Inside those number are the people that are no longer, in the workforce numbers. That's a start!

Unfortunately, this country went through a time where a college degree was dang near a requirement for work. I don't know what requirement is needed in your industry; however, when I grew up, in Cary, while looking at your industry (because I've always enjoyed looking at housing construction) most of the sub-contractors were either white or Black.

Those people had small businesses and employed others. By the time I bought my first house, the foundation subs were starting to be Hispanic, where they used to be Black. That transformation happened slowly; however, very effectively.

---

The argument about the jobs in construction being "taken" from non-working American citizens is moot unless and until there isn't a gross undersupply of labor in the industry. There are still so many jobs in the construction industry available. American citizens' ability to find consequential, good-paying work in the industry is not limited consequentially by the proportion of undocumented workers in the industry at this time.

Agree that we need to (and to some extent, already are) pivot hard from a near-exclusive focus on 4-year degrees as being the path for most kids out of high school. Trade and vocational schools and community college programs need to be re-emphasized.

You still see a lot of black masons and concrete and utility guys in the Raleigh market. Regardless, increases of housing affordability and American prosperity in historically underemployed segments of our society require that we continue finding ways to encourage and enable American kids of all backgrounds coming out of high school to enter vocational trades that provide a much higher rate of pay and much better business ownership opportunities than so many other fields.

---

Wow! Civ, you and I agree, for the most part. That said, you will know better, regarding pay, between undocumented and American citizens.

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

As far as your birth rate info, we don't need anything. We have people sitting without jobs, as it stands. Just go look into any impoverished area and look at the people sitting on their porch…. These illegal immigrants are coming here and taking those jobs away. We, as a society demonize those people; however, the US Government along with elite money, took this jobs away from them.

So, right now, we don't need anymore immigration. We need for the current unemployed to take those jobs, whether white or blue collar…

---

The mythical porch-sitters would have all the construction work they can handle if they wanted to go into the industry.

There is a chronic labor shortage in construction for both skilled and unskilled workers despite 15% of the American construction workforce being undocumented (second by proportion only to agriculture).

The jobs are still out there.

---

Isn't it a little more nuanced than that, Civ?

I'm not saying that porch sitters are that answer 100%. That said, we have to start somewhere. Remember, the jobs that 15% are taking, come only from non-working American Citizens! Anyway you shake this out, it's true! What's missing are the skills, mental aspect, etc to get them back engaged in the workforce.

Pay attention to the unemployment numbers, each month. Inside those number are the people that are no longer, in the workforce numbers. That's a start!

Unfortunately, this country went through a time where a college degree was dang near a requirement for work. I don't know what requirement is needed in your industry; however, when I grew up, in Cary, while looking at your industry (because I've always enjoyed looking at housing construction) most of the sub-contractors were either white or Black.

Those people had small businesses and employed others. By the time I bought my first house, the foundation subs were starting to be Hispanic, where they used to be Black. That transformation happened slowly; however, very effectively.

---

The argument about the jobs in construction being "taken" from non-working American citizens is moot unless and until there isn't a gross undersupply of labor in the industry. There are still so many jobs in the construction industry available. American citizens' ability to find consequential, good-paying work in the industry is not limited consequentially by the proportion of undocumented workers in the industry at this time.

Agree that we need to (and to some extent, already are) pivot hard from a near-exclusive focus on 4-year degrees as being the path for most kids out of high school. Trade and vocational schools and community college programs need to be re-emphasized.

You still see a lot of black masons and concrete and utility guys in the Raleigh market. Regardless, increases of housing affordability and American prosperity in historically underemployed segments of our society require that we continue finding ways to encourage and enable American kids of all backgrounds coming out of high school to enter vocational trades that provide a much higher rate of pay and much better business ownership opportunities than so many other fields.

---

Wow! Civ, you and I agree, for the most part. That said, you will know better, regarding pay, between undocumented and American citizens.

---

There is no difference in pay in the construction industry. In commercial construction, the amount of illegal labor is extremely small, due to the Federal Gov't requiring I-9 verification. I do not know about residential construction though.

In this area, most illegal labor is in the food service industry and child care. Again, two areas that cannot find enough labor to do the work.

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

As far as your birth rate info, we don't need anything. We have people sitting without jobs, as it stands. Just go look into any impoverished area and look at the people sitting on their porch…. These illegal immigrants are coming here and taking those jobs away. We, as a society demonize those people; however, the US Government along with elite money, took this jobs away from them.

So, right now, we don't need anymore immigration. We need for the current unemployed to take those jobs, whether white or blue collar…

---

The mythical porch-sitters would have all the construction work they can handle if they wanted to go into the industry.

There is a chronic labor shortage in construction for both skilled and unskilled workers despite 15% of the American construction workforce being undocumented (second by proportion only to agriculture).

The jobs are still out there.

---

Isn't it a little more nuanced than that, Civ?

I'm not saying that porch sitters are that answer 100%. That said, we have to start somewhere. Remember, the jobs that 15% are taking, come only from non-working American Citizens! Anyway you shake this out, it's true! What's missing are the skills, mental aspect, etc to get them back engaged in the workforce.

Pay attention to the unemployment numbers, each month. Inside those number are the people that are no longer, in the workforce numbers. That's a start!

Unfortunately, this country went through a time where a college degree was dang near a requirement for work. I don't know what requirement is needed in your industry; however, when I grew up, in Cary, while looking at your industry (because I've always enjoyed looking at housing construction) most of the sub-contractors were either white or Black.

Those people had small businesses and employed others. By the time I bought my first house, the foundation subs were starting to be Hispanic, where they used to be Black. That transformation happened slowly; however, very effectively.

---

The argument about the jobs in construction being "taken" from non-working American citizens is moot unless and until there isn't a gross undersupply of labor in the industry. There are still so many jobs in the construction industry available. American citizens' ability to find consequential, good-paying work in the industry is not limited consequentially by the proportion of undocumented workers in the industry at this time.

Agree that we need to (and to some extent, already are) pivot hard from a near-exclusive focus on 4-year degrees as being the path for most kids out of high school. Trade and vocational schools and community college programs need to be re-emphasized.

You still see a lot of black masons and concrete and utility guys in the Raleigh market. Regardless, increases of housing affordability and American prosperity in historically underemployed segments of our society require that we continue finding ways to encourage and enable American kids of all backgrounds coming out of high school to enter vocational trades that provide a much higher rate of pay and much better business ownership opportunities than so many other fields.

---

Wow! Civ, you and I agree, for the most part. That said, you will know better, regarding pay, between undocumented and American citizens.

---

There is no difference in pay in the construction industry. In commercial construction, the amount of illegal labor is extremely small, due to the Federal Gov't requiring I-9 verification. I do not know about residential construction though.

In this area, most illegal labor is in the food service industry and child care. Again, two areas that cannot find enough labor to do the work.

---

I work in Commerical Construction. I'm working on the Toyota Battery plant in Liberty. There are about 400 people working (as subs). 60% are Hispanic. Hell, the GC is from Japan (KBD) We do require I-9 verification. I use subcontractors for all my work. The owner of my sub companies provides I-9 and a COI. about 50% of their labor is/are illegals. He pays most about $150 a day with the lead guys getting $200 day. I have one crew that is from Vietnam. All legal. I use one crew from MB that are from Brazil. The owner is legal. All his help (from Brazil) are illegal. But they all work their tails off. They are doing work most if not all american kids don't want to do.

I grew up barning tobacco. I can't tell you the last American kid I saw in a tobacco field unless his family owned the farm

Glasswolf said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

As far as your birth rate info, we don't need anything. We have people sitting without jobs, as it stands. Just go look into any impoverished area and look at the people sitting on their porch…. These illegal immigrants are coming here and taking those jobs away. We, as a society demonize those people; however, the US Government along with elite money, took this jobs away from them.

So, right now, we don't need anymore immigration. We need for the current unemployed to take those jobs, whether white or blue collar…

---

The mythical porch-sitters would have all the construction work they can handle if they wanted to go into the industry.

There is a chronic labor shortage in construction for both skilled and unskilled workers despite 15% of the American construction workforce being undocumented (second by proportion only to agriculture).

The jobs are still out there.

---

Isn't it a little more nuanced than that, Civ?

I'm not saying that porch sitters are that answer 100%. That said, we have to start somewhere. Remember, the jobs that 15% are taking, come only from non-working American Citizens! Anyway you shake this out, it's true! What's missing are the skills, mental aspect, etc to get them back engaged in the workforce.

Pay attention to the unemployment numbers, each month. Inside those number are the people that are no longer, in the workforce numbers. That's a start!

Unfortunately, this country went through a time where a college degree was dang near a requirement for work. I don't know what requirement is needed in your industry; however, when I grew up, in Cary, while looking at your industry (because I've always enjoyed looking at housing construction) most of the sub-contractors were either white or Black.

Those people had small businesses and employed others. By the time I bought my first house, the foundation subs were starting to be Hispanic, where they used to be Black. That transformation happened slowly; however, very effectively.

---

The argument about the jobs in construction being "taken" from non-working American citizens is moot unless and until there isn't a gross undersupply of labor in the industry. There are still so many jobs in the construction industry available. American citizens' ability to find consequential, good-paying work in the industry is not limited consequentially by the proportion of undocumented workers in the industry at this time.

Agree that we need to (and to some extent, already are) pivot hard from a near-exclusive focus on 4-year degrees as being the path for most kids out of high school. Trade and vocational schools and community college programs need to be re-emphasized.

You still see a lot of black masons and concrete and utility guys in the Raleigh market. Regardless, increases of housing affordability and American prosperity in historically underemployed segments of our society require that we continue finding ways to encourage and enable American kids of all backgrounds coming out of high school to enter vocational trades that provide a much higher rate of pay and much better business ownership opportunities than so many other fields.

---

Wow! Civ, you and I agree, for the most part. That said, you will know better, regarding pay, between undocumented and American citizens.

---

There is no difference in pay in the construction industry. In commercial construction, the amount of illegal labor is extremely small, due to the Federal Gov't requiring I-9 verification. I do not know about residential construction though.

In this area, most illegal labor is in the food service industry and child care. Again, two areas that cannot find enough labor to do the work.

---

I work in Commerical Construction. I'm working on the Toyota Battery plant in Liberty. There are about 400 people working (as subs). 60% are Hispanic. Hell, the GC is from Japan (KBD) We do require I-9 verification. I use subcontractors for all my work. The owner of my sub companies provides I-9 and a COI. about 50% of their labor is/are illegals. He pays most about $150 a day with the lead guys getting $200 day. I have one crew that is from Vietnam. All legal. I use one crew from MB that are from Brazil. The owner is legal. All his help (from Brazil) are illegal. But they all work their tails off. They are doing work most if not all american kids don't want to do.

I grew up barning tobacco. I can't tell you the last American kid I saw in a tobacco field unless his family owned the farm

---

if that was my sub Glass, I'd fire them far into the sun and never use them again for using illegal labor.

hokiewolf said:

---

Glasswolf said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

As far as your birth rate info, we don't need anything. We have people sitting without jobs, as it stands. Just go look into any impoverished area and look at the people sitting on their porch…. These illegal immigrants are coming here and taking those jobs away. We, as a society demonize those people; however, the US Government along with elite money, took this jobs away from them.

So, right now, we don't need anymore immigration. We need for the current unemployed to take those jobs, whether white or blue collar…

---

The mythical porch-sitters would have all the construction work they can handle if they wanted to go into the industry.

There is a chronic labor shortage in construction for both skilled and unskilled workers despite 15% of the American construction workforce being undocumented (second by proportion only to agriculture).

The jobs are still out there.

---

Isn't it a little more nuanced than that, Civ?

I'm not saying that porch sitters are that answer 100%. That said, we have to start somewhere. Remember, the jobs that 15% are taking, come only from non-working American Citizens! Anyway you shake this out, it's true! What's missing are the skills, mental aspect, etc to get them back engaged in the workforce.

Pay attention to the unemployment numbers, each month. Inside those number are the people that are no longer, in the workforce numbers. That's a start!

Unfortunately, this country went through a time where a college degree was dang near a requirement for work. I don't know what requirement is needed in your industry; however, when I grew up, in Cary, while looking at your industry (because I've always enjoyed looking at housing construction) most of the sub-contractors were either white or Black.

Those people had small businesses and employed others. By the time I bought my first house, the foundation subs were starting to be Hispanic, where they used to be Black. That transformation happened slowly; however, very effectively.

---

The argument about the jobs in construction being "taken" from non-working American citizens is moot unless and until there isn't a gross undersupply of labor in the industry. There are still so many jobs in the construction industry available. American citizens' ability to find consequential, good-paying work in the industry is not limited consequentially by the proportion of undocumented workers in the industry at this time.

Agree that we need to (and to some extent, already are) pivot hard from a near-exclusive focus on 4-year degrees as being the path for most kids out of high school. Trade and vocational schools and community college programs need to be re-emphasized.

You still see a lot of black masons and concrete and utility guys in the Raleigh market. Regardless, increases of housing affordability and American prosperity in historically underemployed segments of our society require that we continue finding ways to encourage and enable American kids of all backgrounds coming out of high school to enter vocational trades that provide a much higher rate of pay and much better business ownership opportunities than so many other fields.

---

Wow! Civ, you and I agree, for the most part. That said, you will know better, regarding pay, between undocumented and American citizens.

---

There is no difference in pay in the construction industry. In commercial construction, the amount of illegal labor is extremely small, due to the Federal Gov't requiring I-9 verification. I do not know about residential construction though.

In this area, most illegal labor is in the food service industry and child care. Again, two areas that cannot find enough labor to do the work.

---

I work in Commerical Construction. I'm working on the Toyota Battery plant in Liberty. There are about 400 people working (as subs). 60% are Hispanic. Hell, the GC is from Japan (KBD) We do require I-9 verification. I use subcontractors for all my work. The owner of my sub companies provides I-9 and a COI. about 50% of their labor is/are illegals. He pays most about $150 a day with the lead guys getting $200 day. I have one crew that is from Vietnam. All legal. I use one crew from MB that are from Brazil. The owner is legal. All his help (from Brazil) are illegal. But they all work their tails off. They are doing work most if not all american kids don't want to do.

I grew up barning tobacco. I can't tell you the last American kid I saw in a tobacco field unless his family owned the farm

---

if that was my sub Glass, I'd fire them far into the sun and never use them again for using illegal labor.

---

I'm sure that was probably Glass' stance at one time as well, but if he continually loses bids because his competition is using illegal labor, then eventually he has to do it too...

Shows how much Civ the expert on everything knows how things actually work in the real world... $150.00 a day, and $200.00 a day for the "boss man" over the illegals for that kind of work is insane, but that's what they get by with everywhere right now. *Absolutely ZERO income taxes get paid on that money... and no payroll taxes since they are all "Independent Contractors" either.

Oh, and Civ... in residential, all the framers are hispanic and all the underlings are illegal. The one guy that speaks English takes a cut from the ones actually doing the labor. Once you get into the painting, the wives and teenage daughters are out there with brushes in their hands.

hokiewolf said:

---

Glasswolf said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

As far as your birth rate info, we don't need anything. We have people sitting without jobs, as it stands. Just go look into any impoverished area and look at the people sitting on their porch…. These illegal immigrants are coming here and taking those jobs away. We, as a society demonize those people; however, the US Government along with elite money, took this jobs away from them.

So, right now, we don't need anymore immigration. We need for the current unemployed to take those jobs, whether white or blue collar…

---

The mythical porch-sitters would have all the construction work they can handle if they wanted to go into the industry.

There is a chronic labor shortage in construction for both skilled and unskilled workers despite 15% of the American construction workforce being undocumented (second by proportion only to agriculture).

The jobs are still out there.

---

Isn't it a little more nuanced than that, Civ?

I'm not saying that porch sitters are that answer 100%. That said, we have to start somewhere. Remember, the jobs that 15% are taking, come only from non-working American Citizens! Anyway you shake this out, it's true! What's missing are the skills, mental aspect, etc to get them back engaged in the workforce.

Pay attention to the unemployment numbers, each month. Inside those number are the people that are no longer, in the workforce numbers. That's a start!

Unfortunately, this country went through a time where a college degree was dang near a requirement for work. I don't know what requirement is needed in your industry; however, when I grew up, in Cary, while looking at your industry (because I've always enjoyed looking at housing construction) most of the sub-contractors were either white or Black.

Those people had small businesses and employed others. By the time I bought my first house, the foundation subs were starting to be Hispanic, where they used to be Black. That transformation happened slowly; however, very effectively.

---

The argument about the jobs in construction being "taken" from non-working American citizens is moot unless and until there isn't a gross undersupply of labor in the industry. There are still so many jobs in the construction industry available. American citizens' ability to find consequential, good-paying work in the industry is not limited consequentially by the proportion of undocumented workers in the industry at this time.

Agree that we need to (and to some extent, already are) pivot hard from a near-exclusive focus on 4-year degrees as being the path for most kids out of high school. Trade and vocational schools and community college programs need to be re-emphasized.

You still see a lot of black masons and concrete and utility guys in the Raleigh market. Regardless, increases of housing affordability and American prosperity in historically underemployed segments of our society require that we continue finding ways to encourage and enable American kids of all backgrounds coming out of high school to enter vocational trades that provide a much higher rate of pay and much better business ownership opportunities than so many other fields.

---

Wow! Civ, you and I agree, for the most part. That said, you will know better, regarding pay, between undocumented and American citizens.

---

There is no difference in pay in the construction industry. In commercial construction, the amount of illegal labor is extremely small, due to the Federal Gov't requiring I-9 verification. I do not know about residential construction though.

In this area, most illegal labor is in the food service industry and child care. Again, two areas that cannot find enough labor to do the work.

---

I work in Commerical Construction. I'm working on the Toyota Battery plant in Liberty. There are about 400 people working (as subs). 60% are Hispanic. Hell, the GC is from Japan (KBD) We do require I-9 verification. I use subcontractors for all my work. The owner of my sub companies provides I-9 and a COI. about 50% of their labor is/are illegals. He pays most about $150 a day with the lead guys getting $200 day. I have one crew that is from Vietnam. All legal. I use one crew from MB that are from Brazil. The owner is legal. All his help (from Brazil) are illegal. But they all work their tails off. They are doing work most if not all american kids don't want to do.

I grew up barning tobacco. I can't tell you the last American kid I saw in a tobacco field unless his family owned the farm

---

if that was my sub Glass, I'd fire them far into the sun and never use them again for using illegal labor.

---

You wouldn't get much work done. Have the same experience as glass. I think the pricing has gone up a bit to 200, 250, but basically the same.

Also whoever said there are still a lot of black masons in Raleigh area is exaggerating. There are "some" black masons in Raleigh. There are not "a lot" of black people in any segment of construction business. By race, it is primarily white and Hispanic in the construction field.

TheStorm said:

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hokiewolf said:

---

Glasswolf said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

As far as your birth rate info, we don't need anything. We have people sitting without jobs, as it stands. Just go look into any impoverished area and look at the people sitting on their porch…. These illegal immigrants are coming here and taking those jobs away. We, as a society demonize those people; however, the US Government along with elite money, took this jobs away from them.

So, right now, we don't need anymore immigration. We need for the current unemployed to take those jobs, whether white or blue collar…

---

The mythical porch-sitters would have all the construction work they can handle if they wanted to go into the industry.

There is a chronic labor shortage in construction for both skilled and unskilled workers despite 15% of the American construction workforce being undocumented (second by proportion only to agriculture).

The jobs are still out there.

---

Isn't it a little more nuanced than that, Civ?

I'm not saying that porch sitters are that answer 100%. That said, we have to start somewhere. Remember, the jobs that 15% are taking, come only from non-working American Citizens! Anyway you shake this out, it's true! What's missing are the skills, mental aspect, etc to get them back engaged in the workforce.

Pay attention to the unemployment numbers, each month. Inside those number are the people that are no longer, in the workforce numbers. That's a start!

Unfortunately, this country went through a time where a college degree was dang near a requirement for work. I don't know what requirement is needed in your industry; however, when I grew up, in Cary, while looking at your industry (because I've always enjoyed looking at housing construction) most of the sub-contractors were either white or Black.

Those people had small businesses and employed others. By the time I bought my first house, the foundation subs were starting to be Hispanic, where they used to be Black. That transformation happened slowly; however, very effectively.

---

The argument about the jobs in construction being "taken" from non-working American citizens is moot unless and until there isn't a gross undersupply of labor in the industry. There are still so many jobs in the construction industry available. American citizens' ability to find consequential, good-paying work in the industry is not limited consequentially by the proportion of undocumented workers in the industry at this time.

Agree that we need to (and to some extent, already are) pivot hard from a near-exclusive focus on 4-year degrees as being the path for most kids out of high school. Trade and vocational schools and community college programs need to be re-emphasized.

You still see a lot of black masons and concrete and utility guys in the Raleigh market. Regardless, increases of housing affordability and American prosperity in historically underemployed segments of our society require that we continue finding ways to encourage and enable American kids of all backgrounds coming out of high school to enter vocational trades that provide a much higher rate of pay and much better business ownership opportunities than so many other fields.

---

Wow! Civ, you and I agree, for the most part. That said, you will know better, regarding pay, between undocumented and American citizens.

---

There is no difference in pay in the construction industry. In commercial construction, the amount of illegal labor is extremely small, due to the Federal Gov't requiring I-9 verification. I do not know about residential construction though.

In this area, most illegal labor is in the food service industry and child care. Again, two areas that cannot find enough labor to do the work.

---

I work in Commerical Construction. I'm working on the Toyota Battery plant in Liberty. There are about 400 people working (as subs). 60% are Hispanic. Hell, the GC is from Japan (KBD) We do require I-9 verification. I use subcontractors for all my work. The owner of my sub companies provides I-9 and a COI. about 50% of their labor is/are illegals. He pays most about $150 a day with the lead guys getting $200 day. I have one crew that is from Vietnam. All legal. I use one crew from MB that are from Brazil. The owner is legal. All his help (from Brazil) are illegal. But they all work their tails off. They are doing work most if not all american kids don't want to do.

I grew up barning tobacco. I can't tell you the last American kid I saw in a tobacco field unless his family owned the farm

---

if that was my sub Glass, I'd fire them far into the sun and never use them again for using illegal labor.

---

I'm sure that was probably Glass' stance at one time as well, but if he continually loses bids because his competition is using illegal labor, then eventually he has to do it too...

Shows how much Civ the expert on everything knows how things actually work in the real world... $150.00 a day, and $200.00 a day for the "boss man" over the illegals for that kind of work is insane, but that's what they get by with everywhere right now. *Absolutely ZERO income taxes get paid on that money... and no payroll taxes since they are all "Independent Contractors" either.

Oh, and Civ... in residential, all the framers are hispanic and all the underlings are illegal. The one guy that speaks English takes a cut from the ones actually doing the labor. Once you get into the painting, the wives and teenage daughters are out there with brushes in their hands.

---

True story. Your read is accurate on residential crews in the Triangle for sure. Framing crews, drywall, paint, cleaning, and landscape crews likely lead the pack with undocumented workers.

You find your way into smaller but growing markets like Black Mountain and the areas in and around Asheville and you see a lot more white-boy framers and other trades. Not coincidentally these markets are a lot more labor-constrained. My BIL is a framer/carpenter in the mountains and finding competitive subs up there is an even bigger problem than it is in the Triangle because the labor market is so tight.

All that said, why am I catching strays on this one, Storm?

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

As far as your birth rate info, we don't need anything. We have people sitting without jobs, as it stands. Just go look into any impoverished area and look at the people sitting on their porch…. These illegal immigrants are coming here and taking those jobs away. We, as a society demonize those people; however, the US Government along with elite money, took this jobs away from them.

So, right now, we don't need anymore immigration. We need for the current unemployed to take those jobs, whether white or blue collar…

---

The mythical porch-sitters would have all the construction work they can handle if they wanted to go into the industry.

There is a chronic labor shortage in construction for both skilled and unskilled workers despite 15% of the American construction workforce being undocumented (second by proportion only to agriculture).

The jobs are still out there.

---

Isn't it a little more nuanced than that, Civ?

I'm not saying that porch sitters are that answer 100%. That said, we have to start somewhere. Remember, the jobs that 15% are taking, come only from non-working American Citizens! Anyway you shake this out, it's true! What's missing are the skills, mental aspect, etc to get them back engaged in the workforce.

Pay attention to the unemployment numbers, each month. Inside those number are the people that are no longer, in the workforce numbers. That's a start!

Unfortunately, this country went through a time where a college degree was dang near a requirement for work. I don't know what requirement is needed in your industry; however, when I grew up, in Cary, while looking at your industry (because I've always enjoyed looking at housing construction) most of the sub-contractors were either white or Black.

Those people had small businesses and employed others. By the time I bought my first house, the foundation subs were starting to be Hispanic, where they used to be Black. That transformation happened slowly; however, very effectively.

---

The argument about the jobs in construction being "taken" from non-working American citizens is moot unless and until there isn't a gross undersupply of labor in the industry. There are still so many jobs in the construction industry available. American citizens' ability to find consequential, good-paying work in the industry is not limited consequentially by the proportion of undocumented workers in the industry at this time.

Agree that we need to (and to some extent, already are) pivot hard from a near-exclusive focus on 4-year degrees as being the path for most kids out of high school. Trade and vocational schools and community college programs need to be re-emphasized.

You still see a lot of black masons and concrete and utility guys in the Raleigh market. Regardless, increases of housing affordability and American prosperity in historically underemployed segments of our society require that we continue finding ways to encourage and enable American kids of all backgrounds coming out of high school to enter vocational trades that provide a much higher rate of pay and much better business ownership opportunities than so many other fields.

---

Wow! Civ, you and I agree, for the most part. That said, you will know better, regarding pay, between undocumented and American citizens.

---

There is no difference in pay in the construction industry. In commercial construction, the amount of illegal labor is extremely small, due to the Federal Gov't requiring I-9 verification. I do not know about residential construction though.

In this area, most illegal labor is in the food service industry and child care. Again, two areas that cannot find enough labor to do the work.

---

Re:^ Hey man, I'm just reminding you what you posted earlier here on the same page - just yesterday - in fact.

So which is it, oh, exalted leader?!?

TheStorm said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

As far as your birth rate info, we don't need anything. We have people sitting without jobs, as it stands. Just go look into any impoverished area and look at the people sitting on their porch…. These illegal immigrants are coming here and taking those jobs away. We, as a society demonize those people; however, the US Government along with elite money, took this jobs away from them.

So, right now, we don't need anymore immigration. We need for the current unemployed to take those jobs, whether white or blue collar…

---

The mythical porch-sitters would have all the construction work they can handle if they wanted to go into the industry.

There is a chronic labor shortage in construction for both skilled and unskilled workers despite 15% of the American construction workforce being undocumented (second by proportion only to agriculture).

The jobs are still out there.

---

Isn't it a little more nuanced than that, Civ?

I'm not saying that porch sitters are that answer 100%. That said, we have to start somewhere. Remember, the jobs that 15% are taking, come only from non-working American Citizens! Anyway you shake this out, it's true! What's missing are the skills, mental aspect, etc to get them back engaged in the workforce.

Pay attention to the unemployment numbers, each month. Inside those number are the people that are no longer, in the workforce numbers. That's a start!

Unfortunately, this country went through a time where a college degree was dang near a requirement for work. I don't know what requirement is needed in your industry; however, when I grew up, in Cary, while looking at your industry (because I've always enjoyed looking at housing construction) most of the sub-contractors were either white or Black.

Those people had small businesses and employed others. By the time I bought my first house, the foundation subs were starting to be Hispanic, where they used to be Black. That transformation happened slowly; however, very effectively.

---

The argument about the jobs in construction being "taken" from non-working American citizens is moot unless and until there isn't a gross undersupply of labor in the industry. There are still so many jobs in the construction industry available. American citizens' ability to find consequential, good-paying work in the industry is not limited consequentially by the proportion of undocumented workers in the industry at this time.

Agree that we need to (and to some extent, already are) pivot hard from a near-exclusive focus on 4-year degrees as being the path for most kids out of high school. Trade and vocational schools and community college programs need to be re-emphasized.

You still see a lot of black masons and concrete and utility guys in the Raleigh market. Regardless, increases of housing affordability and American prosperity in historically underemployed segments of our society require that we continue finding ways to encourage and enable American kids of all backgrounds coming out of high school to enter vocational trades that provide a much higher rate of pay and much better business ownership opportunities than so many other fields.

---

Wow! Civ, you and I agree, for the most part. That said, you will know better, regarding pay, between undocumented and American citizens.

---

There is no difference in pay in the construction industry. In commercial construction, the amount of illegal labor is extremely small, due to the Federal Gov't requiring I-9 verification. I do not know about residential construction though.

In this area, most illegal labor is in the food service industry and child care. Again, two areas that cannot find enough labor to do the work.

---

Re:^ Hey man, I'm just reminding you what you posted earlier here on the same page - just yesterday - in fact.

So which is it, oh, exalted leader?!?

---

the above bolded I stand by. It's been my experience in this industry for 23 years Working from Baltimore down to Miami and all in between. If you use illegal labor, you aren't working on my projects.

Civilized said:

---

TheStorm said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Glasswolf said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

As far as your birth rate info, we don't need anything. We have people sitting without jobs, as it stands. Just go look into any impoverished area and look at the people sitting on their porch…. These illegal immigrants are coming here and taking those jobs away. We, as a society demonize those people; however, the US Government along with elite money, took this jobs away from them.

So, right now, we don't need anymore immigration. We need for the current unemployed to take those jobs, whether white or blue collar…

---

The mythical porch-sitters would have all the construction work they can handle if they wanted to go into the industry.

There is a chronic labor shortage in construction for both skilled and unskilled workers despite 15% of the American construction workforce being undocumented (second by proportion only to agriculture).

The jobs are still out there.

---

Isn't it a little more nuanced than that, Civ?

I'm not saying that porch sitters are that answer 100%. That said, we have to start somewhere. Remember, the jobs that 15% are taking, come only from non-working American Citizens! Anyway you shake this out, it's true! What's missing are the skills, mental aspect, etc to get them back engaged in the workforce.

Pay attention to the unemployment numbers, each month. Inside those number are the people that are no longer, in the workforce numbers. That's a start!

Unfortunately, this country went through a time where a college degree was dang near a requirement for work. I don't know what requirement is needed in your industry; however, when I grew up, in Cary, while looking at your industry (because I've always enjoyed looking at housing construction) most of the sub-contractors were either white or Black.

Those people had small businesses and employed others. By the time I bought my first house, the foundation subs were starting to be Hispanic, where they used to be Black. That transformation happened slowly; however, very effectively.

---

The argument about the jobs in construction being "taken" from non-working American citizens is moot unless and until there isn't a gross undersupply of labor in the industry. There are still so many jobs in the construction industry available. American citizens' ability to find consequential, good-paying work in the industry is not limited consequentially by the proportion of undocumented workers in the industry at this time.

Agree that we need to (and to some extent, already are) pivot hard from a near-exclusive focus on 4-year degrees as being the path for most kids out of high school. Trade and vocational schools and community college programs need to be re-emphasized.

You still see a lot of black masons and concrete and utility guys in the Raleigh market. Regardless, increases of housing affordability and American prosperity in historically underemployed segments of our society require that we continue finding ways to encourage and enable American kids of all backgrounds coming out of high school to enter vocational trades that provide a much higher rate of pay and much better business ownership opportunities than so many other fields.

---

Wow! Civ, you and I agree, for the most part. That said, you will know better, regarding pay, between undocumented and American citizens.

---

There is no difference in pay in the construction industry. In commercial construction, the amount of illegal labor is extremely small, due to the Federal Gov't requiring I-9 verification. I do not know about residential construction though.

In this area, most illegal labor is in the food service industry and child care. Again, two areas that cannot find enough labor to do the work.

---

I work in Commerical Construction. I'm working on the Toyota Battery plant in Liberty. There are about 400 people working (as subs). 60% are Hispanic. Hell, the GC is from Japan (KBD) We do require I-9 verification. I use subcontractors for all my work. The owner of my sub companies provides I-9 and a COI. about 50% of their labor is/are illegals. He pays most about $150 a day with the lead guys getting $200 day. I have one crew that is from Vietnam. All legal. I use one crew from MB that are from Brazil. The owner is legal. All his help (from Brazil) are illegal. But they all work their tails off. They are doing work most if not all american kids don't want to do.

I grew up barning tobacco. I can't tell you the last American kid I saw in a tobacco field unless his family owned the farm

---

if that was my sub Glass, I'd fire them far into the sun and never use them again for using illegal labor.

---

I'm sure that was probably Glass' stance at one time as well, but if he continually loses bids because his competition is using illegal labor, then eventually he has to do it too...

Shows how much Civ the expert on everything knows how things actually work in the real world... $150.00 a day, and $200.00 a day for the "boss man" over the illegals for that kind of work is insane, but that's what they get by with everywhere right now. *Absolutely ZERO income taxes get paid on that money... and no payroll taxes since they are all "Independent Contractors" either.

Oh, and Civ... in residential, all the framers are hispanic and all the underlings are illegal. The one guy that speaks English takes a cut from the ones actually doing the labor. Once you get into the painting, the wives and teenage daughters are out there with brushes in their hands.

---

True story. Your read is accurate on residential crews in the Triangle for sure. Framing crews, drywall, paint, cleaning, and landscape crews likely lead the pack with undocumented workers.

You find your way into smaller but growing markets like Black Mountain and the areas in and around Asheville and you see a lot more white-boy framers and other trades. Not coincidentally these markets are a lot more labor-constrained. My BIL is a framer/carpenter in the mountains and finding competitive subs up there is an even bigger problem than it is in the Triangle because the labor market is so tight.

All that said, why am I catching strays on this one, Storm?

---

Probably because he doesn't agree with what you said….

Folks, right now, illegals are going where the work is. Being that the triangle has been in a boom, for such a long time, why wouldn't they come here? Black Mountain probably has new home construction, but nothing like the Triangle…

BTW, I fully understand why we have the amount of illegal crossing, so for that, I certainly get why it's happening. People want a better life! That said, no one has a right to be here, it's a privilege to be born here! So, the Biden admin created this crises, and now we want to think it's ok? Yea, I don't see it that way…

hokiewolf said:

---

TheStorm said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

As far as your birth rate info, we don't need anything. We have people sitting without jobs, as it stands. Just go look into any impoverished area and look at the people sitting on their porch…. These illegal immigrants are coming here and taking those jobs away. We, as a society demonize those people; however, the US Government along with elite money, took this jobs away from them.

So, right now, we don't need anymore immigration. We need for the current unemployed to take those jobs, whether white or blue collar…

---

The mythical porch-sitters would have all the construction work they can handle if they wanted to go into the industry.

There is a chronic labor shortage in construction for both skilled and unskilled workers despite 15% of the American construction workforce being undocumented (second by proportion only to agriculture).

The jobs are still out there.

---

Isn't it a little more nuanced than that, Civ?

I'm not saying that porch sitters are that answer 100%. That said, we have to start somewhere. Remember, the jobs that 15% are taking, come only from non-working American Citizens! Anyway you shake this out, it's true! What's missing are the skills, mental aspect, etc to get them back engaged in the workforce.

Pay attention to the unemployment numbers, each month. Inside those number are the people that are no longer, in the workforce numbers. That's a start!

Unfortunately, this country went through a time where a college degree was dang near a requirement for work. I don't know what requirement is needed in your industry; however, when I grew up, in Cary, while looking at your industry (because I've always enjoyed looking at housing construction) most of the sub-contractors were either white or Black.

Those people had small businesses and employed others. By the time I bought my first house, the foundation subs were starting to be Hispanic, where they used to be Black. That transformation happened slowly; however, very effectively.

---

The argument about the jobs in construction being "taken" from non-working American citizens is moot unless and until there isn't a gross undersupply of labor in the industry. There are still so many jobs in the construction industry available. American citizens' ability to find consequential, good-paying work in the industry is not limited consequentially by the proportion of undocumented workers in the industry at this time.

Agree that we need to (and to some extent, already are) pivot hard from a near-exclusive focus on 4-year degrees as being the path for most kids out of high school. Trade and vocational schools and community college programs need to be re-emphasized.

You still see a lot of black masons and concrete and utility guys in the Raleigh market. Regardless, increases of housing affordability and American prosperity in historically underemployed segments of our society require that we continue finding ways to encourage and enable American kids of all backgrounds coming out of high school to enter vocational trades that provide a much higher rate of pay and much better business ownership opportunities than so many other fields.

---

Wow! Civ, you and I agree, for the most part. That said, you will know better, regarding pay, between undocumented and American citizens.

---

There is no difference in pay in the construction industry. In commercial construction, the amount of illegal labor is extremely small, due to the Federal Gov't requiring I-9 verification. I do not know about residential construction though.

In this area, most illegal labor is in the food service industry and child care. Again, two areas that cannot find enough labor to do the work.

---

Re:^ Hey man, I'm just reminding you what you posted earlier here on the same page - just yesterday - in fact.

So which is it, oh, exalted leader?!?

---

the above bolded I stand by. It's been my experience in this industry for 23 years Working from Baltimore down to Miami and all in between. If you use illegal labor, you aren't working on my projects.

---

I9 verification is in most businesses. At Stitch, we've had to turn away a good number of potential employees because of it.

Seditious conspiracy https://t.co/VetHjzwfwd

— Tim Pool (@Timcast) September 19, 2023

hokiewolf said:

---

TheStorm said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

As far as your birth rate info, we don't need anything. We have people sitting without jobs, as it stands. Just go look into any impoverished area and look at the people sitting on their porch…. These illegal immigrants are coming here and taking those jobs away. We, as a society demonize those people; however, the US Government along with elite money, took this jobs away from them.

So, right now, we don't need anymore immigration. We need for the current unemployed to take those jobs, whether white or blue collar…

---

The mythical porch-sitters would have all the construction work they can handle if they wanted to go into the industry.

There is a chronic labor shortage in construction for both skilled and unskilled workers despite 15% of the American construction workforce being undocumented (second by proportion only to agriculture).

The jobs are still out there.

---

Isn't it a little more nuanced than that, Civ?

I'm not saying that porch sitters are that answer 100%. That said, we have to start somewhere. Remember, the jobs that 15% are taking, come only from non-working American Citizens! Anyway you shake this out, it's true! What's missing are the skills, mental aspect, etc to get them back engaged in the workforce.

Pay attention to the unemployment numbers, each month. Inside those number are the people that are no longer, in the workforce numbers. That's a start!

Unfortunately, this country went through a time where a college degree was dang near a requirement for work. I don't know what requirement is needed in your industry; however, when I grew up, in Cary, while looking at your industry (because I've always enjoyed looking at housing construction) most of the sub-contractors were either white or Black.

Those people had small businesses and employed others. By the time I bought my first house, the foundation subs were starting to be Hispanic, where they used to be Black. That transformation happened slowly; however, very effectively.

---

The argument about the jobs in construction being "taken" from non-working American citizens is moot unless and until there isn't a gross undersupply of labor in the industry. There are still so many jobs in the construction industry available. American citizens' ability to find consequential, good-paying work in the industry is not limited consequentially by the proportion of undocumented workers in the industry at this time.

Agree that we need to (and to some extent, already are) pivot hard from a near-exclusive focus on 4-year degrees as being the path for most kids out of high school. Trade and vocational schools and community college programs need to be re-emphasized.

You still see a lot of black masons and concrete and utility guys in the Raleigh market. Regardless, increases of housing affordability and American prosperity in historically underemployed segments of our society require that we continue finding ways to encourage and enable American kids of all backgrounds coming out of high school to enter vocational trades that provide a much higher rate of pay and much better business ownership opportunities than so many other fields.

---

Wow! Civ, you and I agree, for the most part. That said, you will know better, regarding pay, between undocumented and American citizens.

---

There is no difference in pay in the construction industry. In commercial construction, the amount of illegal labor is extremely small, due to the Federal Gov't requiring I-9 verification. I do not know about residential construction though.

In this area, most illegal labor is in the food service industry and child care. Again, two areas that cannot find enough labor to do the work.

---

Re:^ Hey man, I'm just reminding you what you posted earlier here on the same page - just yesterday - in fact.

So which is it, oh, exalted leader?!?

---

the above bolded I stand by. It's been my experience in this industry for 23 years Working from Baltimore down to Miami and all in between. If you use illegal labor, you aren't working on my projects.

---

You probably wouldn't even know if your subs are using illegal labor... all you care about is having that I-9 from the sub, and in the real world it's nothing but a piece of paper... oh, and btw, they get around the insurance company audits as well. It's not hard to do, and no I don't work in the construction industry, but I'm around it in person multiple times a week and know what I am talking about.

Heck, Glass is working inside or very near one of our state's tax subsidized megasites and he just told you exactly how those companies are forced to play the game now. And the GC is based out of Japan.

TheStorm said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

TheStorm said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

As far as your birth rate info, we don't need anything. We have people sitting without jobs, as it stands. Just go look into any impoverished area and look at the people sitting on their porch…. These illegal immigrants are coming here and taking those jobs away. We, as a society demonize those people; however, the US Government along with elite money, took this jobs away from them.

So, right now, we don't need anymore immigration. We need for the current unemployed to take those jobs, whether white or blue collar…

---

The mythical porch-sitters would have all the construction work they can handle if they wanted to go into the industry.

There is a chronic labor shortage in construction for both skilled and unskilled workers despite 15% of the American construction workforce being undocumented (second by proportion only to agriculture).

The jobs are still out there.

---

Isn't it a little more nuanced than that, Civ?

I'm not saying that porch sitters are that answer 100%. That said, we have to start somewhere. Remember, the jobs that 15% are taking, come only from non-working American Citizens! Anyway you shake this out, it's true! What's missing are the skills, mental aspect, etc to get them back engaged in the workforce.

Pay attention to the unemployment numbers, each month. Inside those number are the people that are no longer, in the workforce numbers. That's a start!

Unfortunately, this country went through a time where a college degree was dang near a requirement for work. I don't know what requirement is needed in your industry; however, when I grew up, in Cary, while looking at your industry (because I've always enjoyed looking at housing construction) most of the sub-contractors were either white or Black.

Those people had small businesses and employed others. By the time I bought my first house, the foundation subs were starting to be Hispanic, where they used to be Black. That transformation happened slowly; however, very effectively.

---

The argument about the jobs in construction being "taken" from non-working American citizens is moot unless and until there isn't a gross undersupply of labor in the industry. There are still so many jobs in the construction industry available. American citizens' ability to find consequential, good-paying work in the industry is not limited consequentially by the proportion of undocumented workers in the industry at this time.

Agree that we need to (and to some extent, already are) pivot hard from a near-exclusive focus on 4-year degrees as being the path for most kids out of high school. Trade and vocational schools and community college programs need to be re-emphasized.

You still see a lot of black masons and concrete and utility guys in the Raleigh market. Regardless, increases of housing affordability and American prosperity in historically underemployed segments of our society require that we continue finding ways to encourage and enable American kids of all backgrounds coming out of high school to enter vocational trades that provide a much higher rate of pay and much better business ownership opportunities than so many other fields.

---

Wow! Civ, you and I agree, for the most part. That said, you will know better, regarding pay, between undocumented and American citizens.

---

There is no difference in pay in the construction industry. In commercial construction, the amount of illegal labor is extremely small, due to the Federal Gov't requiring I-9 verification. I do not know about residential construction though.

In this area, most illegal labor is in the food service industry and child care. Again, two areas that cannot find enough labor to do the work.

---

Re:^ Hey man, I'm just reminding you what you posted earlier here on the same page - just yesterday - in fact.

So which is it, oh, exalted leader?!?

---

the above bolded I stand by. It's been my experience in this industry for 23 years Working from Baltimore down to Miami and all in between. If you use illegal labor, you aren't working on my projects.

---

You probably wouldn't even know if your subs are using illegal labor... all you care about is having that I-9 from the sub, and in the real world it's nothing but a piece of paper... oh, and btw, they get around the insurance company audits as well. It's not hard to do, and no I don't work in the construction industry, but I'm around it in person multiple times a week and know what I am talking about.

Heck, Glass is working inside or very near one of our state's tax subsidized megasites and he just told you exactly how those companies are forced to play the game now. And the GC is based out of Japan.

---

Correct. I would bet the extent of hokie's research into his guys using illegal labor is the I9 and asking the guy "are your guys legal?"

I know guys in the business that say the same thing. We use some of the same subs on some projects. 100% know what they're saying isn't true.

Boils down to willful ignorance.

packgrad said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Glasswolf said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

As far as your birth rate info, we don't need anything. We have people sitting without jobs, as it stands. Just go look into any impoverished area and look at the people sitting on their porch…. These illegal immigrants are coming here and taking those jobs away. We, as a society demonize those people; however, the US Government along with elite money, took this jobs away from them.

So, right now, we don't need anymore immigration. We need for the current unemployed to take those jobs, whether white or blue collar…

---

The mythical porch-sitters would have all the construction work they can handle if they wanted to go into the industry.

There is a chronic labor shortage in construction for both skilled and unskilled workers despite 15% of the American construction workforce being undocumented (second by proportion only to agriculture).

The jobs are still out there.

---

Isn't it a little more nuanced than that, Civ?

I'm not saying that porch sitters are that answer 100%. That said, we have to start somewhere. Remember, the jobs that 15% are taking, come only from non-working American Citizens! Anyway you shake this out, it's true! What's missing are the skills, mental aspect, etc to get them back engaged in the workforce.

Pay attention to the unemployment numbers, each month. Inside those number are the people that are no longer, in the workforce numbers. That's a start!

Unfortunately, this country went through a time where a college degree was dang near a requirement for work. I don't know what requirement is needed in your industry; however, when I grew up, in Cary, while looking at your industry (because I've always enjoyed looking at housing construction) most of the sub-contractors were either white or Black.

Those people had small businesses and employed others. By the time I bought my first house, the foundation subs were starting to be Hispanic, where they used to be Black. That transformation happened slowly; however, very effectively.

---

The argument about the jobs in construction being "taken" from non-working American citizens is moot unless and until there isn't a gross undersupply of labor in the industry. There are still so many jobs in the construction industry available. American citizens' ability to find consequential, good-paying work in the industry is not limited consequentially by the proportion of undocumented workers in the industry at this time.

Agree that we need to (and to some extent, already are) pivot hard from a near-exclusive focus on 4-year degrees as being the path for most kids out of high school. Trade and vocational schools and community college programs need to be re-emphasized.

You still see a lot of black masons and concrete and utility guys in the Raleigh market. Regardless, increases of housing affordability and American prosperity in historically underemployed segments of our society require that we continue finding ways to encourage and enable American kids of all backgrounds coming out of high school to enter vocational trades that provide a much higher rate of pay and much better business ownership opportunities than so many other fields.

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Wow! Civ, you and I agree, for the most part. That said, you will know better, regarding pay, between undocumented and American citizens.

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There is no difference in pay in the construction industry. In commercial construction, the amount of illegal labor is extremely small, due to the Federal Gov't requiring I-9 verification. I do not know about residential construction though.

In this area, most illegal labor is in the food service industry and child care. Again, two areas that cannot find enough labor to do the work.

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I work in Commerical Construction. I'm working on the Toyota Battery plant in Liberty. There are about 400 people working (as subs). 60% are Hispanic. Hell, the GC is from Japan (KBD) We do require I-9 verification. I use subcontractors for all my work. The owner of my sub companies provides I-9 and a COI. about 50% of their labor is/are illegals. He pays most about $150 a day with the lead guys getting $200 day. I have one crew that is from Vietnam. All legal. I use one crew from MB that are from Brazil. The owner is legal. All his help (from Brazil) are illegal. But they all work their tails off. They are doing work most if not all american kids don't want to do.

I grew up barning tobacco. I can't tell you the last American kid I saw in a tobacco field unless his family owned the farm

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if that was my sub Glass, I'd fire them far into the sun and never use them again for using illegal labor.

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You wouldn't get much work done. Have the same experience as glass. I think the pricing has gone up a bit to 200, 250, but basically the same.

Also whoever said there are still a lot of black masons in Raleigh area is exaggerating. There are "some" black masons in Raleigh. There are not "a lot" of black people in any segment of construction business. By race, it is primarily white and Hispanic in the construction field.

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"A lot" is obviously subjective.

It stands out that it's not rare to find or use black masons and concrete guys, like you say probably because there are virtually no black people working in most of the other trades.

It's pretty comical that you guys can see the problem all around you, which is that everyone and their brother are hiring illegals because wow is it cheap. But somehow all of your extreme anger isn't pointed there, it's pointed where Fox News wants you to point it... at the border where they can pretend Biden invented illegal border crossings. It's the Libruls that are doing this to you!

So here's an idea... why don't you get furious at everyone actually creating the jobs that these people are flooding over the border to take? We actually do have the tools to stop it (like E-Verify), but everyone would rather stick with some old school BS that's easy to get around.

So YOU are making the weather, and then crying that it's raining.

FlossyDFlynt said:

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SmaptyWolf said:

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It's pretty comical that you guys can see the problem all around you, which is that everyone and their brother are hiring illegals because wow is it cheap. But somehow all of your extreme anger isn't pointed there, it's pointed where Fox News wants you to point it... at the border where they can pretend Biden invented illegal border crossings. It's the Libruls that are doing this to you!

So here's an idea... why don't you get furious at everyone actually creating the jobs that these people are flooding over the border to take? We actually do have the tools to stop it (like E-Verify), but everyone would rather stick with some old school BS that's easy to get around.

So YOU are making the weather, and then crying that it's raining.

---

Lets look at the bolded:

First, this wasn't an issue under the previous administration. Say what you will about Trump (I am not the biggest fan), but he had the border situation under control. The current administration came in and undid every one of his policies and now we are seeing how disastrous it is. This whole situation fall 100% on Biden's shoulders.

Second, we should be mad at people for creating jobs in this economy? On what planet does that logic make sense?

---

Trump is the master of pretending he did things. That's his super power. You know why border crossings suddenly dropped under Trump and then just recently resumed? Because we just had a global pandemic and EVERYONE closed their borders. You know who else had way fewer immigrants? Name any country and your right. So now that we've declared that the pandemic is over, by law we HAVE to start processing asylum claims again. So this is Biden's fault? Lol, ok.

What happened to that big beautiful wall that Trump fleeced you guys to get built? Is it currently keeping out any immigrants? It sure doesn't seem like it's doing anything. So did he not really build as much wall as he claims, or was the idea always ****ing stupid?

Anyway, you're saying you shouldn't be mad at people creating jobs for illegals? Ok, well then you should get used to being mad about illegals.

TheStorm said:

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SmaptyWolf said:

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It's pretty comical that you guys can see the problem all around you, which is that everyone and their brother are hiring illegals because wow is it cheap. But somehow all of your extreme anger isn't pointed there, it's pointed where Fox News wants you to point it... at the border where they can pretend Biden invented illegal border crossings. It's the Libruls that are doing this to you!

So here's an idea... why don't you get furious at everyone actually creating the jobs that these people are flooding over the border to take? We actually do have the tools to stop it (like E-Verify), but everyone would rather stick with some old school BS that's easy to get around.

So YOU are making the weather, and then crying that it's raining.

---

Nope. Because they are here illegal, the system can be circumvented by not having to pay payroll taxes and no income taxes are getting paid either. That gets passed along to us that were born here and have no choice. But apparently, you aren't as smart as you think you are, are you?

---

So you're saying a subcontractor can produce a bunch of miraculous work, and the government has no way of asking who did that work if they actually wanted to? Yea, BS.

Anyway, what does that have to do with YOU getting mad about that? How do YOU know if someone is hiring illegals? It clearly isn't that hard to figure out. So why aren't conservative calling in death threats or whatever crap it is you guys do when you hear about that framing crew of illegals?

packgrad said:

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Smapty is trying so hard to own random people on a message board he is incapable of reasonable thought. The border was closed to illegals entering the country during covid? Lol.

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Illegals still snuck in every day over Trumps miraculous wall (which apparently stopped working when he left office), but huge numbers of legal asylum seekers didn't get in because of the pandemic. Now they're back, and it's a difficult problem given our antiquated immigration laws. Come on, this ain't that hard... even for you.

packgrad said:

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TheStorm said:

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hokiewolf said:

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TheStorm said:

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hokiewolf said:

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caryking said:

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Civilized said:

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caryking said:

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Civilized said:

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caryking said:

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As far as your birth rate info, we don't need anything. We have people sitting without jobs, as it stands. Just go look into any impoverished area and look at the people sitting on their porch…. These illegal immigrants are coming here and taking those jobs away. We, as a society demonize those people; however, the US Government along with elite money, took this jobs away from them.

So, right now, we don't need anymore immigration. We need for the current unemployed to take those jobs, whether white or blue collar…

---

The mythical porch-sitters would have all the construction work they can handle if they wanted to go into the industry.

There is a chronic labor shortage in construction for both skilled and unskilled workers despite 15% of the American construction workforce being undocumented (second by proportion only to agriculture).

The jobs are still out there.

---

Isn't it a little more nuanced than that, Civ?

I'm not saying that porch sitters are that answer 100%. That said, we have to start somewhere. Remember, the jobs that 15% are taking, come only from non-working American Citizens! Anyway you shake this out, it's true! What's missing are the skills, mental aspect, etc to get them back engaged in the workforce.

Pay attention to the unemployment numbers, each month. Inside those number are the people that are no longer, in the workforce numbers. That's a start!

Unfortunately, this country went through a time where a college degree was dang near a requirement for work. I don't know what requirement is needed in your industry; however, when I grew up, in Cary, while looking at your industry (because I've always enjoyed looking at housing construction) most of the sub-contractors were either white or Black.

Those people had small businesses and employed others. By the time I bought my first house, the foundation subs were starting to be Hispanic, where they used to be Black. That transformation happened slowly; however, very effectively.

---

The argument about the jobs in construction being "taken" from non-working American citizens is moot unless and until there isn't a gross undersupply of labor in the industry. There are still so many jobs in the construction industry available. American citizens' ability to find consequential, good-paying work in the industry is not limited consequentially by the proportion of undocumented workers in the industry at this time.

Agree that we need to (and to some extent, already are) pivot hard from a near-exclusive focus on 4-year degrees as being the path for most kids out of high school. Trade and vocational schools and community college programs need to be re-emphasized.

You still see a lot of black masons and concrete and utility guys in the Raleigh market. Regardless, increases of housing affordability and American prosperity in historically underemployed segments of our society require that we continue finding ways to encourage and enable American kids of all backgrounds coming out of high school to enter vocational trades that provide a much higher rate of pay and much better business ownership opportunities than so many other fields.

---

Wow! Civ, you and I agree, for the most part. That said, you will know better, regarding pay, between undocumented and American citizens.

---

There is no difference in pay in the construction industry. In commercial construction, the amount of illegal labor is extremely small, due to the Federal Gov't requiring I-9 verification. I do not know about residential construction though.

In this area, most illegal labor is in the food service industry and child care. Again, two areas that cannot find enough labor to do the work.

---

Re:^ Hey man, I'm just reminding you what you posted earlier here on the same page - just yesterday - in fact.

So which is it, oh, exalted leader?!?

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the above bolded I stand by. It's been my experience in this industry for 23 years Working from Baltimore down to Miami and all in between. If you use illegal labor, you aren't working on my projects.

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You probably wouldn't even know if your subs are using illegal labor... all you care about is having that I-9 from the sub, and in the real world it's nothing but a piece of paper... oh, and btw, they get around the insurance company audits as well. It's not hard to do, and no I don't work in the construction industry, but I'm around it in person multiple times a week and know what I am talking about.

Heck, Glass is working inside or very near one of our state's tax subsidized megasites and he just told you exactly how those companies are forced to play the game now. And the GC is based out of Japan.

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Correct. I would bet the extent of hokie's research into his guys using illegal labor is the I9 and asking the guy "are your guys legal?"

I know guys in the business that say the same thing. We use some of the same subs on some projects. 100% know what they're saying isn't true.

Boils down to willful ignorance.

---

You couldn't be more wrong about my business, because you don't know me or how I operate. I take a lot of pride in my profession and my professional life. I don't appreciate you making assumptions.

Snapy, or whatever it's name is…

That person has been fed a complete line of crap by MSNBC, CNN, etc…. (BTW, haven't watched Fox News in a year).

The reporting has been clear that the Biden Admin has encouraged this inflow of illegal people. Additionally, damn near none of these people are seeking asylum. They just want a better economic life (economics are Not a reason for asylum)

Supposedly, a strong portion of these people are middle aged men. Just look at the videos coming from the border and you see this to be true. You will only see this if you look real investigative journalism. So, look around, you might have a new reality.

Also, I pay attention to your media! I see why you have the opinions you do. Add some new media to your repertoire to balance out your thinking..

Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Glasswolf said:

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hokiewolf said:

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caryking said:

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Civilized said:

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caryking said:

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Civilized said:

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caryking said:

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As far as your birth rate info, we don't need anything. We have people sitting without jobs, as it stands. Just go look into any impoverished area and look at the people sitting on their porch…. These illegal immigrants are coming here and taking those jobs away. We, as a society demonize those people; however, the US Government along with elite money, took this jobs away from them.

So, right now, we don't need anymore immigration. We need for the current unemployed to take those jobs, whether white or blue collar…

---

The mythical porch-sitters would have all the construction work they can handle if they wanted to go into the industry.

There is a chronic labor shortage in construction for both skilled and unskilled workers despite 15% of the American construction workforce being undocumented (second by proportion only to agriculture).

The jobs are still out there.

---

Isn't it a little more nuanced than that, Civ?

I'm not saying that porch sitters are that answer 100%. That said, we have to start somewhere. Remember, the jobs that 15% are taking, come only from non-working American Citizens! Anyway you shake this out, it's true! What's missing are the skills, mental aspect, etc to get them back engaged in the workforce.

Pay attention to the unemployment numbers, each month. Inside those number are the people that are no longer, in the workforce numbers. That's a start!

Unfortunately, this country went through a time where a college degree was dang near a requirement for work. I don't know what requirement is needed in your industry; however, when I grew up, in Cary, while looking at your industry (because I've always enjoyed looking at housing construction) most of the sub-contractors were either white or Black.

Those people had small businesses and employed others. By the time I bought my first house, the foundation subs were starting to be Hispanic, where they used to be Black. That transformation happened slowly; however, very effectively.

---

The argument about the jobs in construction being "taken" from non-working American citizens is moot unless and until there isn't a gross undersupply of labor in the industry. There are still so many jobs in the construction industry available. American citizens' ability to find consequential, good-paying work in the industry is not limited consequentially by the proportion of undocumented workers in the industry at this time.

Agree that we need to (and to some extent, already are) pivot hard from a near-exclusive focus on 4-year degrees as being the path for most kids out of high school. Trade and vocational schools and community college programs need to be re-emphasized.

You still see a lot of black masons and concrete and utility guys in the Raleigh market. Regardless, increases of housing affordability and American prosperity in historically underemployed segments of our society require that we continue finding ways to encourage and enable American kids of all backgrounds coming out of high school to enter vocational trades that provide a much higher rate of pay and much better business ownership opportunities than so many other fields.

---

Wow! Civ, you and I agree, for the most part. That said, you will know better, regarding pay, between undocumented and American citizens.

---

There is no difference in pay in the construction industry. In commercial construction, the amount of illegal labor is extremely small, due to the Federal Gov't requiring I-9 verification. I do not know about residential construction though.

In this area, most illegal labor is in the food service industry and child care. Again, two areas that cannot find enough labor to do the work.

---

I work in Commerical Construction. I'm working on the Toyota Battery plant in Liberty. There are about 400 people working (as subs). 60% are Hispanic. Hell, the GC is from Japan (KBD) We do require I-9 verification. I use subcontractors for all my work. The owner of my sub companies provides I-9 and a COI. about 50% of their labor is/are illegals. He pays most about $150 a day with the lead guys getting $200 day. I have one crew that is from Vietnam. All legal. I use one crew from MB that are from Brazil. The owner is legal. All his help (from Brazil) are illegal. But they all work their tails off. They are doing work most if not all american kids don't want to do.

I grew up barning tobacco. I can't tell you the last American kid I saw in a tobacco field unless his family owned the farm

---

if that was my sub Glass, I'd fire them far into the sun and never use them again for using illegal labor.

---

You wouldn't get much work done. Have the same experience as glass. I think the pricing has gone up a bit to 200, 250, but basically the same.

Also whoever said there are still a lot of black masons in Raleigh area is exaggerating. There are "some" black masons in Raleigh. There are not "a lot" of black people in any segment of construction business. By race, it is primarily white and Hispanic in the construction field.

---

"A lot" is obviously subjective.

It stands out that it's not rare to find or use black masons and concrete guys, like you say probably because there are virtually no black people working in most of the other trades.

---

Which is sad...

When I built my first house, there were no hispanic sub-contractors, on my house. By the time, the neighborhood was completed, hispanic sub-contractors were everywhere. I've always wondered what happened to those subs. What would they be doing today, if not retired?

caryking said:

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Snapy, or whatever it's name is…

That person has been fed a complete line of crap by MSNBC, CNN, etc…. (BTW, haven't watched Fox News in a year).

The reporting has been clear that the Biden Admin has encouraged this inflow of illegal people. Additionally, damn near none of these people are seeking asylum. They just want a better economic life (economics are Not a reason for asylum)

Supposedly, a strong portion of these people are middle aged men. Just look at the videos coming from the border and you see this to be true. You will only see this if you look real investigative journalism. So, look around, you might have a new reality.

Also, I pay attention to your media! I see why you have the opinions you do. Add some new media to your repertoire to balance out your thinking..

---

I'm back to being an "it"... that's nice. My pronouns are "deez" and "nuts".

Oooo! The reporting is clear! Well that's settles it!

Yes, a jillion people want to claim asylum because they want a better job. Guess what, most of them aren't actually granted asylum and are sent back after their hearing. You seem to like mixing up "illegals" sneaking over Trump's wall and framing your house with asylum seekers flooding the border and trying to get in legally.

Hint: The guys at the border that Fox News loves to "report" by definition aren't the ones sneaking in. You can see them clearly, standing there at the gate.

caryking said:

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SmaptyWolf said:

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caryking said:

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Snapy, or whatever it's name is…

That person has been fed a complete line of crap by MSNBC, CNN, etc…. (BTW, haven't watched Fox News in a year).

The reporting has been clear that the Biden Admin has encouraged this inflow of illegal people. Additionally, damn near none of these people are seeking asylum. They just want a better economic life (economics are Not a reason for asylum)

Supposedly, a strong portion of these people are middle aged men. Just look at the videos coming from the border and you see this to be true. You will only see this if you look real investigative journalism. So, look around, you might have a new reality.

Also, I pay attention to your media! I see why you have the opinions you do. Add some new media to your repertoire to balance out your thinking..

---

I'm back to being an "it"... that's nice. My pronouns are "deez" and "nuts".

Oooo! The reporting is clear! Well that's settles it!

Yes, a jillion people want to claim asylum because they want a better job. Guess what, most of them aren't actually granted asylum and are sent back after their hearing. You seem to like mixing up "illegals" sneaking over Trump's wall and framing your house with asylum seekers flooding the border and trying to get in legally.

Hint: The guys at the border that Fox News loves to "report" by definition aren't the ones sneaking in. You can see them clearly, standing there at the gate.

---

Man, you know most of what you are saying isn't true... Your commentary regarding my post is so far off, it's pathetic, Honestly "deez", your world view is sad, as far as I'm concerned.

No reason for me to comment any further as you're not a serious person. Good luck...

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Lol, sounds good. I didn't expect you'd have any thoughts of your own on these topics. Like I said at the beginning, these convos always end the same way. But I have to admit, watching you guys short circuit when someone points out easily verifiable reality that conflicts with the crap you've been fed is pretty entertaining.

Mostly I've been engaging with y'all for the benefit of other folks that have to endure you numbskulls every time they stumble into the Water Cooler.