Such sad news. I've got friends in Law Enforcement and I wouldn't want that job for anything.

They went on a wellness check. Let that sink in. Maybe this is where those that want to defund the police would like to see some sort of community response team fill in? Horrible. Prayers for all those involved - horrific.

wilmwolf80 said:

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I think the thing that a lot of people fail to understand is that they typically don't know what they are walking into until they get there, and sometimes it changes quickly. I definitely think every situation doesn't require armed intervention, and there should be more counselor, negotiator types involved, particularly in domestic or mental health situations, but the reality is that they just don't know if or when a situation is going to turn.

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Yeah, that was my sarcasm. These poor officers most likely did not arrive with a shootout in mind. They are called upon regularly to do this type of thing and never know what they are going to face. Doubtful any other organization or group would have resulted in a different outcome without some additional information going in. But are unarmed counselor/negotiators going to be willing to face that unknown on a regular basis? I know I wouldn't.

Has anyone seen any background info on the son yet? Did not know if it had been mentioned if it was purely a mental illness issue or parental abuse or what?

statefan91 said:

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WolfQuacker said:

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wilmwolf80 said:

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I think the thing that a lot of people fail to understand is that they typically don't know what they are walking into until they get there, and sometimes it changes quickly. I definitely think every situation doesn't require armed intervention, and there should be more counselor, negotiator types involved, particularly in domestic or mental health situations, but the reality is that they just don't know if or when a situation is going to turn.

---

Yeah, that was my sarcasm. These poor officers most likely did not arrive with a shootout in mind. They are called upon regularly to do this type of thing and never know what they are going to face. Doubtful any other organization or group would have resulted in a different outcome without some additional information going in. But are unarmed counselor/negotiators going to be willing to face that unknown on a regular basis? I know I wouldn't.

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Who knows, but obviously some people don't react well to police and maybe this is a situation where a counselor going to check-in would have been INTERPRETED as less threatening than this person's obvious reaction to a police officer.

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Side by side might make sense. But what would have happened if it wasn't "Police" responding is conjecture on my part as well as yours. I just don't see many people signing up for unarmed support of these situations.

packgrad said:

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statefan91 said:

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WolfQuacker said:

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wilmwolf80 said:

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I think the thing that a lot of people fail to understand is that they typically don't know what they are walking into until they get there, and sometimes it changes quickly. I definitely think every situation doesn't require armed intervention, and there should be more counselor, negotiator types involved, particularly in domestic or mental health situations, but the reality is that they just don't know if or when a situation is going to turn.

---

Yeah, that was my sarcasm. These poor officers most likely did not arrive with a shootout in mind. They are called upon regularly to do this type of thing and never know what they are going to face. Doubtful any other organization or group would have resulted in a different outcome without some additional information going in. But are unarmed counselor/negotiators going to be willing to face that unknown on a regular basis? I know I wouldn't.

---

Who knows, but obviously some people don't react well to police and maybe this is a situation where a counselor going to check-in would have been INTERPRETED as less threatening than this person's obvious reaction to a police officer.

---

Do you think people that don't respond well to police are going to respond well to police counselors? I don't.

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Not sure. If it was a wellness check and the person has had issues with police before, maybe worth looking at an alternative. Maybe a counselor they've worked with before could perform the wellness check, or it could be a phone check-in first.

statefan91 said:

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packgrad said:

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statefan91 said:

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WolfQuacker said:

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wilmwolf80 said:

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I think the thing that a lot of people fail to understand is that they typically don't know what they are walking into until they get there, and sometimes it changes quickly. I definitely think every situation doesn't require armed intervention, and there should be more counselor, negotiator types involved, particularly in domestic or mental health situations, but the reality is that they just don't know if or when a situation is going to turn.

---

Yeah, that was my sarcasm. These poor officers most likely did not arrive with a shootout in mind. They are called upon regularly to do this type of thing and never know what they are going to face. Doubtful any other organization or group would have resulted in a different outcome without some additional information going in. But are unarmed counselor/negotiators going to be willing to face that unknown on a regular basis? I know I wouldn't.

---

Who knows, but obviously some people don't react well to police and maybe this is a situation where a counselor going to check-in would have been INTERPRETED as less threatening than this person's obvious reaction to a police officer.

---

Do you think people that don't respond well to police are going to respond well to police counselors? I don't.

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Not sure. If it was a wellness check and the person has had issues with police before, maybe worth looking at an alternative. Maybe a counselor they've worked with before could perform the wellness check, or it could be a phone check-in first.

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Yeah, I think that's nuts. Especially in looking at this situation. But plenty of people think we should have unarmed police and counselors so they should have no problem filling these positions.

Terrible. Just terrible for all involved.

statefan91 said:

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packgrad said:

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statefan91 said:

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WolfQuacker said:

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wilmwolf80 said:

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I think the thing that a lot of people fail to understand is that they typically don't know what they are walking into until they get there, and sometimes it changes quickly. I definitely think every situation doesn't require armed intervention, and there should be more counselor, negotiator types involved, particularly in domestic or mental health situations, but the reality is that they just don't know if or when a situation is going to turn.

---

Yeah, that was my sarcasm. These poor officers most likely did not arrive with a shootout in mind. They are called upon regularly to do this type of thing and never know what they are going to face. Doubtful any other organization or group would have resulted in a different outcome without some additional information going in. But are unarmed counselor/negotiators going to be willing to face that unknown on a regular basis? I know I wouldn't.

---

Who knows, but obviously some people don't react well to police and maybe this is a situation where a counselor going to check-in would have been INTERPRETED as less threatening than this person's obvious reaction to a police officer.

---

Do you think people that don't respond well to police are going to respond well to police counselors? I don't.

---

Not sure. If it was a wellness check and the person has had issues with police before, maybe worth looking at an alternative. Maybe a counselor they've worked with before could perform the wellness check, or it could be a phone check-in first.

---

Going to serve warrants or going to calls of domestic disputes can't be very much fun either. 99.9% probably go just fine, but.....

Sorry for all the families involved! I would not want to be in law enforcement either. Talk of reducing law enforcement is ignoramus. Mental illness.....the employer called for help....I assume he told what he knew?

packgrad said:

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statefan91 said:

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packgrad said:

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statefan91 said:

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WolfQuacker said:

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wilmwolf80 said:

---

I think the thing that a lot of people fail to understand is that they typically don't know what they are walking into until they get there, and sometimes it changes quickly. I definitely think every situation doesn't require armed intervention, and there should be more counselor, negotiator types involved, particularly in domestic or mental health situations, but the reality is that they just don't know if or when a situation is going to turn.

---

Yeah, that was my sarcasm. These poor officers most likely did not arrive with a shootout in mind. They are called upon regularly to do this type of thing and never know what they are going to face. Doubtful any other organization or group would have resulted in a different outcome without some additional information going in. But are unarmed counselor/negotiators going to be willing to face that unknown on a regular basis? I know I wouldn't.

---

Who knows, but obviously some people don't react well to police and maybe this is a situation where a counselor going to check-in would have been INTERPRETED as less threatening than this person's obvious reaction to a police officer.

---

Do you think people that don't respond well to police are going to respond well to police counselors? I don't.

---

Not sure. If it was a wellness check and the person has had issues with police before, maybe worth looking at an alternative. Maybe a counselor they've worked with before could perform the wellness check, or it could be a phone check-in first.

---

Yeah, I think that's nuts. Especially in looking at this situation. But plenty of people think we should have unarmed police and counselors so they should have no problem filling these positions.

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agree I don't think a good solution has been proposed by anyone, but robbing Peter to pay Paul (defunding the police). Ain't the answer.

I still think the spending needs to be in the mental health world prior to someone having a breakdown and shooting people. Prevention with non armed people is better then when you get to the reaction stage which is essentially what a welfare check is.

And having people who know there is a person that may be on the edge. They have to communicate with the LEO's.

Self accountability would also come into play here. If your neighbor is a nut job tell somebody. If you want to make a difference then do so.

This happened just down the road from my sisters house. So sad

You couldn't pay me enough to be in law enforcement at the moment.

BBW12OG said:

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And having people who know there is a person that may be on the edge. They have to communicate with the LEO's.

Self accountability would also come into play here. If your neighbor is a nut job tell somebody. If you want to make a difference then do so.

---

Agree, identification is so key.

It's also a tremendous challenge. Speaking some from family experience, people are often very good at hiding the extent of their despair/depression/anxiety/mental health struggles, even from those closest to them.

BBW12OG said:

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And having people who know there is a person that may be on the edge. They have to communicate with the LEO's.

Self accountability would also come into play here. If your neighbor is a nut job tell somebody. If you want to make a difference then do so.

---

I actually deal with this now with a neighbor and it's harder than it should be to do that.

hokiewolf said:

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packgrad said:

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statefan91 said:

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packgrad said:

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statefan91 said:

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WolfQuacker said:

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wilmwolf80 said:

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I think the thing that a lot of people fail to understand is that they typically don't know what they are walking into until they get there, and sometimes it changes quickly. I definitely think every situation doesn't require armed intervention, and there should be more counselor, negotiator types involved, particularly in domestic or mental health situations, but the reality is that they just don't know if or when a situation is going to turn.

---

Yeah, that was my sarcasm. These poor officers most likely did not arrive with a shootout in mind. They are called upon regularly to do this type of thing and never know what they are going to face. Doubtful any other organization or group would have resulted in a different outcome without some additional information going in. But are unarmed counselor/negotiators going to be willing to face that unknown on a regular basis? I know I wouldn't.

---

Who knows, but obviously some people don't react well to police and maybe this is a situation where a counselor going to check-in would have been INTERPRETED as less threatening than this person's obvious reaction to a police officer.

---

Do you think people that don't respond well to police are going to respond well to police counselors? I don't.

---

Not sure. If it was a wellness check and the person has had issues with police before, maybe worth looking at an alternative. Maybe a counselor they've worked with before could perform the wellness check, or it could be a phone check-in first.

---

Yeah, I think that's nuts. Especially in looking at this situation. But plenty of people think we should have unarmed police and counselors so they should have no problem filling these positions.

---

agree I don't think a good solution has been proposed by anyone, but robbing Peter to pay Paul (defunding the police). Ain't the answer.

I still think the spending needs to be in the mental health world prior to someone having a breakdown and shooting people. Prevention with non armed people is better then when you get to the reaction stage which is essentially what a welfare check is.

---

I agree with you here Hokie. I do think we need a major solution to the mental health issues in this country... and wouldn't be opposed to a serious government program to help in this area. Majority of the homeless we have here in SLC have mental issues, many of which are drug related.

Problem is getting them to put themselves in programs to get the help they need. I've heard that a drug/alcohol rehab on average takes 5-7 attempts to take serious effect. I would guess that many of these mental issues might fall in line with that.

Steve Videtich said:

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hokiewolf said:

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packgrad said:

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statefan91 said:

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packgrad said:

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statefan91 said:

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WolfQuacker said:

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wilmwolf80 said:

---

I think the thing that a lot of people fail to understand is that they typically don't know what they are walking into until they get there, and sometimes it changes quickly. I definitely think every situation doesn't require armed intervention, and there should be more counselor, negotiator types involved, particularly in domestic or mental health situations, but the reality is that they just don't know if or when a situation is going to turn.

---

Yeah, that was my sarcasm. These poor officers most likely did not arrive with a shootout in mind. They are called upon regularly to do this type of thing and never know what they are going to face. Doubtful any other organization or group would have resulted in a different outcome without some additional information going in. But are unarmed counselor/negotiators going to be willing to face that unknown on a regular basis? I know I wouldn't.

---

Who knows, but obviously some people don't react well to police and maybe this is a situation where a counselor going to check-in would have been INTERPRETED as less threatening than this person's obvious reaction to a police officer.

---

Do you think people that don't respond well to police are going to respond well to police counselors? I don't.

---

Not sure. If it was a wellness check and the person has had issues with police before, maybe worth looking at an alternative. Maybe a counselor they've worked with before could perform the wellness check, or it could be a phone check-in first.

---

Yeah, I think that's nuts. Especially in looking at this situation. But plenty of people think we should have unarmed police and counselors so they should have no problem filling these positions.

---

agree I don't think a good solution has been proposed by anyone, but robbing Peter to pay Paul (defunding the police). Ain't the answer.

I still think the spending needs to be in the mental health world prior to someone having a breakdown and shooting people. Prevention with non armed people is better then when you get to the reaction stage which is essentially what a welfare check is.

---

I agree with you here Hokie. I do think we need a major solution to the mental health issues in this country... and wouldn't be opposed to a serious government program to help in this area. Majority of the homeless we have here in SLC have mental issues, many of which are drug related.

Problem is getting them to put themselves in programs to get the help they need. I've heard that a drug/alcohol rehab on average takes 5-7 attempts to take serious effect. I would guess that many of these mental issues might fall in line with that.

---

I hate to say it but a government program may be needed in order to create a consistent foundation.

Also I would guess that most drug/alcohol abuse is self medicating for the underlying mental issues. So you are probably correct in it taking a number of attempts.

wilmwolf80 said:

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I think the thing that a lot of people fail to understand is that they typically don't know what they are walking into until they get there, and sometimes it changes quickly. I definitely think every situation doesn't require armed intervention, and there should be more counselor, negotiator types involved, particularly in domestic or mental health situations, but the reality is that they just don't know if or when a situation is going to turn.

---

Agree and well said.

statefan91 said:

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packgrad said:

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statefan91 said:

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WolfQuacker said:

---

wilmwolf80 said:

---

I think the thing that a lot of people fail to understand is that they typically don't know what they are walking into until they get there, and sometimes it changes quickly. I definitely think every situation doesn't require armed intervention, and there should be more counselor, negotiator types involved, particularly in domestic or mental health situations, but the reality is that they just don't know if or when a situation is going to turn.

---

Yeah, that was my sarcasm. These poor officers most likely did not arrive with a shootout in mind. They are called upon regularly to do this type of thing and never know what they are going to face. Doubtful any other organization or group would have resulted in a different outcome without some additional information going in. But are unarmed counselor/negotiators going to be willing to face that unknown on a regular basis? I know I wouldn't.

---

Who knows, but obviously some people don't react well to police and maybe this is a situation where a counselor going to check-in would have been INTERPRETED as less threatening than this person's obvious reaction to a police officer.

---

Do you think people that don't respond well to police are going to respond well to police counselors? I don't.

---

Not sure. If it was a wellness check and the person has had issues with police before, maybe worth looking at an alternative. Maybe a counselor they've worked with before could perform the wellness check, or it could be a phone check-in first.

---

From news reports:

The sheriff identified the suspect as 32-year-old Isaac Alton Barnes. Sheriff Hagaman said deputies had been warned about Barnes in the past.
Sheriff Hagaman says he's convinced the suspect was planning to do something violent in nature - not particularly targeting officers - but possibly the public in general.
The sheriff says officers thought they were going into one situation and instead, the suspect was there.
"He was at the house, which we didn't think he would be," the sheriff said.
Sheriff Hagaman says the department has had some encounters with this suspect before - as they just had calls about this person Sunday.
"There was familiar concern that he might try to do something," Sheriff Hagaman said.
The sheriff says the suspect had a fairly large arsenal of weapons.

Civilized said:

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BBW12OG said:

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And having people who know there is a person that may be on the edge. They have to communicate with the LEO's.

Self accountability would also come into play here. If your neighbor is a nut job tell somebody. If you want to make a difference then do so.

---

Agree, identification is so key.

It's also a tremendous challenge. Speaking some from family experience, people are often very good at hiding the extent of their despair/depression/anxiety/mental health struggles, even from those closest to them.

---

I mean, how often do you hear, after some violent / deadly / shocking event...."he always seemed like a good person, we had no idea", even from people who knew. Some of that is cover, but some is also legit. It's very difficult to know sometimes.
And sadly, there is still a big cultural black mark heaped upon a person in need....if not real (and it is, in some cases), at least assumed.

Bell Tower said:

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From news reports:

The sheriff identified the suspect as 32-year-old Isaac Alton Barnes. Sheriff Hagaman said deputies had been warned about Barnes in the past.
Sheriff Hagaman says he's convinced the suspect was planning to do something violent in nature - not particularly targeting officers - but possibly the public in general.
The sheriff says officers thought they were going into one situation and instead, the suspect was there.
"He was at the house, which we didn't think he would be," the sheriff said.
Sheriff Hagaman says the department has had some encounters with this suspect before - as they just had calls about this person Sunday.
"There was familiar concern that he might try to do something," Sheriff Hagaman said.
The sheriff says the suspect had a fairly large arsenal of weapons.

---

so if the call was about Isaac, why were they suprised he was there when they got to his residence...

what were they going to do if he wasnt home?...

sounds like Alton may have found out they were coming to take his weapons and wasnt going down without a fight...

just freakin sad man.

hokiewolf said:

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Because it's a dumb idea. You're past the point of prevention in this case

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Yep. No one is arguing that unarmed community officers should handle situations like this.

Civilized said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Because it's a dumb idea. You're past the point of prevention in this case

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Yep. No one is arguing that unarmed community officers should handle situations like this.

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So when do these "community officers" handle a call?

You lefties are something else.....

hokiewolf said:

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BBW12OG said:

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Civilized said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Because it's a dumb idea. You're past the point of prevention in this case

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Yep. No one is arguing that unarmed community officers should handle situations like this.

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So when do these "community officers" handle a call?

You lefties are something else.....

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probably never. In my ideal world there more robust mental health services offered so that these type of situations occur less.

Also, no one has said anything about defunding the police in this thread or any other thread for community officers because it's a dumb premise.

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The bolded statement is something we all, regardless of political or philosophical beliefs, should easily agree on. The decline of a proactive, broad mental health program in this country has resulted in more problems in our country than perhaps we all realize.

Granted, there is a definite need for laws, law and order, as well as those to enforce them. I am a proponent of the law, and respect for it. A stable mental health program, nationwide, would most likely make those folks jobs easier. I'm also a proponent of a progressive, comprehensive mental health program that would benefit many more than jail or suicide by cop would.

To me, there is as much, or more, failure on the mental health professionals side of things today as there is with law enforcement. A lot is broken. No one seems willing to fix it, or even make a concerted effort to do so.

Sometimes, incarceration is the answer; sometimes, not. Until we see a complete reconstruction of the mental health programs in America, we will continue to see incidents such as this one.

Preach brother.

More isolation and social distrust and less robust mental health support is not a winning formula.

Civilized said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Because it's a dumb idea. You're past the point of prevention in this case

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Yep. No one is arguing that unarmed community officers should handle situations like this.

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You all do know I'm joking, right?