Mormad said:

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Macumbe said:

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One thought I have is that it's the vaxxed are spreading covid moreso than the unvaxxed.

I'm vaccinated but got covid a few months ago...just a little runny nose, no big deal - didn't feel bad at all. I wasn't going to get tested but my wife suggested I should and came back positive. If I hadn't gotten tested, I could have been spreading the virus around quite a bit.

One bit of data you will never have is how many vaccinated, asymptomatic, covid positive people are out there - that don't think they have it so don't get tested and into the database - but could be spreading it but don't think they are. Not to mention companies/organizations that don't require vaccinated people that test positive to quarantine. At least, if you are unvaxxed, for the most part, you will know it pretty soon and quarantine.

So how do we know it's not the vaxxed who are really spreading covid versus the unvaxxed?

Just a thought.

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I think that is a reasonable thought. In general, i think the vax likely reduces the risk of viral spread by reducing viral load by enhancing immunity and therefore viral shedding is reduced. But i agree that infected vaxxed people could potentially have more spreading opportunities (more exposures) by having less severe dz and the feeling that they don't need to get tested or stay at home. So while the vaxxed aren't as efficient at spreading, they may well have more opportunity to spread virus.

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What about that almost entire year before most of us were eligible to be vaccinated that we were out there going about our lives and jobs, etc.? I never stopped eating in restaurants starting Day 1.

Just more over analysis IMO. It's not a healthy exercise.

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/cdc-very-high-risk-travel-destinations-october-18/index.html

One of the highest if not highest percentage vaccinated countries. Lots and lots of restrictions, currently only can go out to dinner with one other person. Masks worn all the time. But we should not travel there.

Australian Student Shares Lockdown Warning with Americans - American Right Tv

This sounds like a blockbuster to me:

Biden Admin is freaking out about who is leaking to Posobiec, per WH official https://t.co/4hj2zyUWxW

— Jack Posobiec 🇺🇸 (@JackPosobiec) October 20, 2021

Small side note in the data today. New record in NC in death reporting lag. Today NC DHHS reported a death from May 14.......2020.

17 months ago.

I would love to know the story behind it. I assume it is paperwork, maybe originally assigned to another state, but was moved to NC as a 'NC' death. Just a random outlier in the data today.

Cases down, etc etc.

Good graph, Packgrad. This with graphs for countries around the world illustrate the cause of the viruses spread

TheStorm said:

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packgrad said:

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Science.

CDC Dr. Rochelle Walensky says that even if kids get vaccinated (per FDA approval) schools should still have mask mandates

"As we head into these winter months, we cannot be complacent."

— Charlie Spiering (@charliespiering) October 20, 2021

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I'm still out here in Colorado for a few more days visiting my daughter and grandson (4th Grade) and other than a short "back to school" bump in late August they have almost no covid cases at his school and no mask mandates. When a kid gets covid they stay out of school for 5 days and none of the other kids are forced to quarantine. Masks are optional. If a parent wants their kid to wear one, no one looks down on that choice or tries to shame them into submission.

The housing proliferation out here is rampant and he goes to a neighborhood school built by the developer (almost all the neighborhoods have them out here) and it's close enough to walk to in less than 10 minutes. I've been walking with him in the morning and literally have only seen a "handful" of masks going to / coming from school since I've been here.

It's amazing what can be achieved with a little "common sense" instead of panic peddling and fear porn.

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Why would anyone be wearing a mask while walking to school outside?

I'm in PHX for the 3rd week out of 4...and masks are a no-go for the most part here. The office building I'm going to technically enforces them, and yesterday, when I went thru the badged revolving door entrance w/o a mask on (it was in my hand), 2 security guards in the adjacent "visitors center" jumped up and ran over to tell me.....I saw them coming, showed them my mask, and they were fine.
Then again, there have been 6 of us in my group in a 4-story building, and I think we likely make up half the population in the otherwise empty building. So we've put our masks on to go to the main lobby, but thats been about it.

But restaurants that we've gone to....no signs, no care.

Per Rochelle Walensky today, the "benefits" of vaccinating 5-11-year-olds is that they will be vaccinated; otherwise nothing changes.

It's hard to describe how despair-inducing that is to some parents. https://t.co/mav2m0Mzso

— Matt Welch (@MattWelch) October 20, 2021

Packchem91 said:

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TheStorm said:

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packgrad said:

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Science.

CDC Dr. Rochelle Walensky says that even if kids get vaccinated (per FDA approval) schools should still have mask mandates

"As we head into these winter months, we cannot be complacent."

— Charlie Spiering (@charliespiering) October 20, 2021

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I'm still out here in Colorado for a few more days visiting my daughter and grandson (4th Grade) and other than a short "back to school" bump in late August they have almost no covid cases at his school and no mask mandates. When a kid gets covid they stay out of school for 5 days and none of the other kids are forced to quarantine. Masks are optional. If a parent wants their kid to wear one, no one looks down on that choice or tries to shame them into submission.

The housing proliferation out here is rampant and he goes to a neighborhood school built by the developer (almost all the neighborhoods have them out here) and it's close enough to walk to in less than 10 minutes. I've been walking with him in the morning and literally have only seen a "handful" of masks going to / coming from school since I've been here.

It's amazing what can be achieved with a little "common sense" instead of panic peddling and fear porn.

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Why would anyone be wearing a mask while walking to school outside?

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SMH that you would even type that tripe, but maybe I shouldn't be… 4th Grader's are capable of discussing things and answering questions and I'll just leave it at that. I've gone in tons of buildings out here, only place that someone asked me to wear a mask (and I declined and left instead) of all places was a "Beef Jerky Outlet" chain store in Manitou Springs.

TheStorm said:

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Packchem91 said:

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TheStorm said:

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packgrad said:

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Science.

CDC Dr. Rochelle Walensky says that even if kids get vaccinated (per FDA approval) schools should still have mask mandates

"As we head into these winter months, we cannot be complacent."

— Charlie Spiering (@charliespiering) October 20, 2021

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I'm still out here in Colorado for a few more days visiting my daughter and grandson (4th Grade) and other than a short "back to school" bump in late August they have almost no covid cases at his school and no mask mandates. When a kid gets covid they stay out of school for 5 days and none of the other kids are forced to quarantine. Masks are optional. If a parent wants their kid to wear one, no one looks down on that choice or tries to shame them into submission.

The housing proliferation out here is rampant and he goes to a neighborhood school built by the developer (almost all the neighborhoods have them out here) and it's close enough to walk to in less than 10 minutes. I've been walking with him in the morning and literally have only seen a "handful" of masks going to / coming from school since I've been here.

It's amazing what can be achieved with a little "common sense" instead of panic peddling and fear porn.

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Why would anyone be wearing a mask while walking to school outside?

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SMH that you would even type that tripe, but maybe I shouldn't be… 4th Grader's are capable of discussing things and answering questions and I'll just leave it at that. I've gone in tons of buildings out here, only place that someone asked me to wear a mask (and I declined and left instead) of all places was a "Beef Jerky Outlet" chain store in Manitou Springs.

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Actually, the one place here that was requiring them was the casino. Had a person at the entrance requiring it.

Mormad said:

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I understand frustration or anger over such non sense, but despair? Really? This gets to the heart of my frustration and anger over our current societal obsession with feeling offended, disrespected, slighted, etc, but is there NOTHING we haven't been castrated over?

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Agree.

The only people despairing are parents that are overthinking this.

My wife's an elementary school teacher. None of the kids give a **** about masks other than finding them mildly annoying and a good source for chin diaper jokes.

Civilized said:

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Mormad said:

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I understand frustration or anger over such non sense, but despair? Really? This gets to the heart of my frustration and anger over our current societal obsession with feeling offended, disrespected, slighted, etc, but is there NOTHING we haven't been castrated over?

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Agree.

The only people despairing are parents that are overthinking this.

My wife's an elementary school teacher. None of the kids give a **** about masks other than finding them mildly annoying and a good source for chin diaper jokes.

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My kid loves getting to pick out what super hero mask he gets to wear for the day. It's not a big deal for mine (anecdotally).

Sounds like we are just a day (?) away from getting CDC approval for boosters that includes a mix and match approach. That's good news. I don't think there will be any age or condition restrictions for J&J recipients- not sure about others. Also, sounds like we're still looking at vaccines for young kids to be approved early November. More good news.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/10/20/1047093449/the-fda-authorizes-moderna-and-j-j-covid-vaccine-boosters

Maybe it is just my social circle, but I see plenty of posts from parents in despair on both sides of the issue. There are three or four moms I've had to mute because of constant posting on the issues, for or against vax for kids, for or against masks for kids. People despair about all kinds of stuff these days, the histrionics on both sides is why I try my best to stay off social media and away from the news.

dogplasma said:

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Sounds like we are just a day (?) away from getting CDC approval for boosters that includes a mix and match approach. That's good news. I don't think there will be any age or condition restrictions for J&J recipients- not sure about others. Also, sounds like we're still looking at vaccines for young kids to be approved early November. More good news.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/10/20/1047093449/the-fda-authorizes-moderna-and-j-j-covid-vaccine-boosters

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I've been listening to the CDC ACIP the last few days. I mean, they will likely recommend them (despite a lack of real efficacy data beyond antibody boosting).

But we know from the last go-round that this is all for show anyways. Walensky will do as has been ordered by the people up top.

Data front. Cases continue down. Actually over 20% of cases reported today are 'backloggy' stretching over the last few weeks.

Looks like Durham 'should' qualify to move to SUBSTANTIAL spread from HIGH (if we used 'Date of Collection' not 'Date of Report')

Cary has actually been at 'SUBSTANTIAL' by "Date of Report" for about 3 weeks now.

Wayland said:

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dogplasma said:

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Sounds like we are just a day (?) away from getting CDC approval for boosters that includes a mix and match approach. That's good news. I don't think there will be any age or condition restrictions for J&J recipients- not sure about others. Also, sounds like we're still looking at vaccines for young kids to be approved early November. More good news.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/10/20/1047093449/the-fda-authorizes-moderna-and-j-j-covid-vaccine-boosters

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I've been listening to the CDC ACIP the last few days. I mean, they will likely recommend them (despite a lack of real efficacy data beyond antibody boosting).

But we know from the last go-round that this is all for show anyways. Walensky will do as has been ordered by the people up top.

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Are you saying boosters have no effect?

dogplasma said:

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Wayland said:

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dogplasma said:

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Sounds like we are just a day (?) away from getting CDC approval for boosters that includes a mix and match approach. That's good news. I don't think there will be any age or condition restrictions for J&J recipients- not sure about others. Also, sounds like we're still looking at vaccines for young kids to be approved early November. More good news.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/10/20/1047093449/the-fda-authorizes-moderna-and-j-j-covid-vaccine-boosters

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I've been listening to the CDC ACIP the last few days. I mean, they will likely recommend them (despite a lack of real efficacy data beyond antibody boosting).

But we know from the last go-round that this is all for show anyways. Walensky will do as has been ordered by the people up top.

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Are you saying boosters have no effect?

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No. I am saying that the policy around boosters is predetermined and is independent of the data (or lack thereof) and that the ACIP meetings are primarily for show surrounding COVID.

Do I think that there are individuals that will likely benefit from boosters, sure. Pending a possible winter wave, it quite possibly would make sense based on age or risk stratification. That doesn't mean that the policy isn't already determined outside of what ACIP may or may not recommend or what can be proven.

Will they be in a better position in 3-4 months (post waning) than they are now, pre-booster? I don't think there is substantial data to support that.

But you're saying there's no proof that vaccine boosters are effective or worthwhile.

packgrad said:

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At my wife's school, they have problems with children wearing masks in every class. Literally every single one. Now this isn't a school where the parents can buy them new super hero masks every day, or heck just wash the ones they have, but I guess we should consider these kids too. Half of the problem with the masks on the children is the masks being full of snot every time they pull them down.

Most of the teachers have given up enforcing it. If they're in the gym with other classes there is more of a concerted effort to enforce it. Her assistant is hyper afraid of Covid so she tries to stay on top of the kids, but it's a never ending impossible task. Shocking to hear another poster say that NONE of the kids at his wife's school have an issue with it. Not surprising though considering the source.

All of this song and dance for masks that have shown essentially zero percent efficacy in protecting kids. And now the narrative is only the people against mask mandates are despairing over this. Lunacy.

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See, even kids in classes have different political ideology! Two liberal poster have no problem with mask, according to the wives.

Two conservative posters do have issues with the mask. My wife teaches kindergarten in a Wake County school. She says the same as yours packgrad!

That is amazing how this stuff works!!!!!

dogplasma said:

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But you're saying there's no proof that vaccine boosters are effective or worthwhile.

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No.

I am saying there is limited data and the policy has basically already been decided regardless of ACIP's recommendations (even if they in fact align with those recommendations this time .... unlike last time).


I certainly think it is reasonable that based on specific risk profiles due to age or being immunocompromised that a booster may be reasonable. That is independent of the fact there exists lack of data. We just need to be honest and public with the fact that there are gaps.

I also think, right about now (assuming a winter wave) would be about the perfect time for those individuals to boost.

Based on the initial series, I would also expect protection against infection to wane within a few months. The initial series already protects against severe infection.

Actually, it would be an interesting exercise to boost the 'at risk' population and purposely NOT boost the vaccinated 'healthy' population, and allow the inevitable infections to move through the population so that hybrid protection of the greater population could then protect the at risk.

But again, that is a grand experiment and separate from the overarching advisory meetings or policy decisions AND we would need to do greater research into the possible costs and trade-offs (something that has been severely lacking across all policy decisions, not just vaccine).

I listen to the FDA advisory and CDC ACIP meetings, and, in general feel like we have the cart leading the horse as far as vaccine policy. I actually find the meetings have some great discussions and debate, but remain fascinated at how all that gets translated by leaders and media.

There just seems to be a bizarre disconnect, but maybe it is just me.