Mormad said:

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I literally don't know a single person who thinks we only reach herd immunity by vaccination only. Do those people truly exist? Herd immunity has been discussed well before these particular vaccines existed. That type of unilateral thinking drives me nuts (if you're correct and those people truly believe such nonsense).

I say, given the choice, I'd much rather my own children become immune through vaccination than through natural infection, no matter how low the perceived risk. But that's just me based on my own biases, knowledge, experiences.

---

The cbs news medical correspondent linked above clearly only believes in vaccinations.

Mormad said:

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I literally don't know a single person who thinks we only reach herd immunity by vaccination only. Do those people truly exist? Herd immunity has been discussed well before these particular vaccines existed. That type of unilateral thinking drives me nuts (if you're correct and those people truly believe such nonsense).

I say, given the choice, I'd much rather my own children become immune through vaccination than through natural infection, no matter how low the perceived risk. But that's just me based on my own biases, knowledge, experiences.

---

My wife and I were discussing this last night. Of course, the data must show efficacy and safety first, but we would be willing to give our youngest (7 months old) the vaccine if warranted. I would much rather him be vaccinated than to risk any amount of natural infection as well.

Now, I would love more for 50-67% of adults to have the vaccine and protect all of our children by default, but we shall see.

packgrad said:

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Herd immunity is achieved by allowing those who have closer to zero risk of bad outcomes from the virus than they do 1/10 of 1 percent chance of a bad outcome to have natural immunity, and vaccinating those at risk. Herd immunity is not achieved through vaccination. The virus cult people unfortunately only believe government provides herd immunity through a vaccine.

Is "normal" for anyone not full open with no masking?

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The 'virus cult' must be a pretty small cult.

Nobody is arguing that we only get to herd immunity through vaccination.

Davie has posted good international data regarding projected vaccination rates required to get to herd immunity. These rates presume specific levels of immunity conferred by the unvaccinated who had natural infection, in addition to vaccination-conferred immunity.

Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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Herd immunity is achieved by allowing those who have closer to zero risk of bad outcomes from the virus than they do 1/10 of 1 percent chance of a bad outcome to have natural immunity, and vaccinating those at risk. Herd immunity is not achieved through vaccination. The virus cult people unfortunately only believe government provides herd immunity through a vaccine.

Is "normal" for anyone not full open with no masking?

---

The 'virus cult' must be a pretty small cult.

Nobody is arguing that we only get to herd immunity through vaccination.

Davie has posted good international data regarding projected vaccination rates required to get to herd immunity. These rates presume specific levels of immunity conferred by the unvaccinated who had natural infection, in addition to vaccination-conferred immunity.

---

Is normal for you full open no masking?

packgrad said:

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Mormad said:

---

I literally don't know a single person who thinks we only reach herd immunity by vaccination only. Do those people truly exist? Herd immunity has been discussed well before these particular vaccines existed. That type of unilateral thinking drives me nuts (if you're correct and those people truly believe such nonsense).

I say, given the choice, I'd much rather my own children become immune through vaccination than through natural infection, no matter how low the perceived risk. But that's just me based on my own biases, knowledge, experiences.

---

The cbs news medical correspondent linked above clearly only believes in vaccinations.

---

Based on what?

I didn't hear anything like that in the clip.

Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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Mormad said:

---

I literally don't know a single person who thinks we only reach herd immunity by vaccination only. Do those people truly exist? Herd immunity has been discussed well before these particular vaccines existed. That type of unilateral thinking drives me nuts (if you're correct and those people truly believe such nonsense).

I say, given the choice, I'd much rather my own children become immune through vaccination than through natural infection, no matter how low the perceived risk. But that's just me based on my own biases, knowledge, experiences.

---

The cbs news medical correspondent linked above clearly only believes in vaccinations.

---

Based on what?

I didn't hear anything like that in the clip.

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Don't let your children play with children that have not been vaccinated. Of course you didn't hear anything like that. Lol.

I will when they're eligible

I'm sure you will.

packgrad said:

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statefan91 said:

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Either vaccination or natural is fine, so why not eliminate basically any risk via vaccination than worry about them getting infected?

7 reasons why think immunity to COVID from vaccination or infection will be long-lived (and why I continue to marvel that CEOs of companies who stand to make profit from boosters get to message that boosters needed; instead, please donate vax to India).
1. Memory B cells: pic.twitter.com/1uccZMsdbU

— Monica Gandhi MD, MPH (@MonicaGandhi9) May 8, 2021

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Get your kids vaccinated. I don't care. The "science and data" show they are at essentially zero risk, but go ahead. It should not be required like the state run media is pushing for.

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You are correct on the low risk for most children. However, infants under 1 are at high risk of complications secondary to COVID. I have a 7 month old who was born 2 months premature, so that particular age range research is near and dear to me.

I don't know that anyone on this board is arguing for requiring this for schools/kids at this time, at least not that I have seen. Media, of course, is a whole different ball game. But, again, this goes back to the point that you can't advocate for individual choice then get mad at people who want to still mask or stay home or vaccinate their kids. Their choices are just as valid as you declining to vaccinate your children. Everyone perceives their risk differently and that is okay.

Also, that 2nd paragraph is not directed towards you necessarily, just a general observation.

packgrad said:

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statefan91 said:

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Either vaccination or natural is fine, so why not eliminate basically any risk via vaccination than worry about them getting infected?

7 reasons why think immunity to COVID from vaccination or infection will be long-lived (and why I continue to marvel that CEOs of companies who stand to make profit from boosters get to message that boosters needed; instead, please donate vax to India).
1. Memory B cells: pic.twitter.com/1uccZMsdbU

— Monica Gandhi MD, MPH (@MonicaGandhi9) May 8, 2021

---

Get your kids vaccinated. I don't care. The "science and data" show they are at essentially zero risk, but go ahead. It should not be required like the state run media is pushing for.

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I heard a couple guys yesterday in Lowes talking and now they are going to vaccinate kids. I was thinking to myself about the vaccines I took in 1964 when going to school and wondering... what the F???

More vaccines followed in the 1960s measles, mumps and rubella
In 1963, the measles vaccine was developed, and by the late 1960s, vaccines were also available to protect against mumps (1967) and rubella (1969). These three vaccines were combined into the MMR vaccine by Dr. Maurice Hilleman in 1971.
Late 1960s | Recommended Vaccines
Smallpox
Diphtheria*
Tetanus*
Pertussis*
Polio (OPV)
Measles
Mumps
Rubella

Vaccines for Adolescents: A new generation of vaccines
Adolescents, like adults, were recommended to get tetanus boosters every 10 years; most requiring their first booster dose around age 11. Other than this, however, most adolescents did not require additional vaccines unless they missed one in childhood. By 2005, vaccines specifically recommended for adolescents were only recommended for sub-groups based on where they lived or medical conditions that they had. However, a new group of vaccines became available in the latter part of the decade.

• New vaccines: Tdap, 2005, meningococcal conjugate (2005), HPV (2006 females, 2009 males), meningococcal serogroup B vaccine (2014)
• Additional recommendations for existing vaccines: HPV (2011 to routinely vaccinate males), intranasal influenza vaccine (2018 again recommended)
• New versions of existing vaccines: HPV (protecting against 9 types, 2015)
• Discontinuation of vaccine: intranasal influenza vaccine (2016)

2000
Recommended Vaccines
Td
Catch-up
MMR
Hepatitis B
Varicella
Sub-groups
Hepatitis A
2005
Recommended Vaccines
Tdap
Catch-up
MMR
Hepatitis B
Varicella
Sub-groups
Hepatitis A
Pneumococcus
Influenza
2010
Recommended Vaccines
Tdap
HPV
Meningococcal conjugate (serogroups A,C,W,Y)
Influenza
Catch-up
MMR
Hepatitis B
Varicella
Polio
Sub-groups
Hepatitis A
Pneumococcus
2020
Recommended Vaccines
Tdap
HPV
Meningococcal conjugate (serogroups A,C,W,Y)
Influenza
Meningococcal serogroup B
Catch-up
MMR
Hepatitis B
Varicella
Polio
Sub-groups
Hepatitis A
Pneumococcus

PackPA2015 said:

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Mormad said:

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I literally don't know a single person who thinks we only reach herd immunity by vaccination only. Do those people truly exist? Herd immunity has been discussed well before these particular vaccines existed. That type of unilateral thinking drives me nuts (if you're correct and those people truly believe such nonsense).

I say, given the choice, I'd much rather my own children become immune through vaccination than through natural infection, no matter how low the perceived risk. But that's just me based on my own biases, knowledge, experiences.

---

Now, I would love more for 50-67% of adults to have the vaccine and protect all of our children by default, but we shall see.

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We are already at 50+% vaccinated in NC. The children are protected by default now.

My kids have both had it and it was a 12 hour blip on the radar for them. I wouldn't have my kids vax'd at this point. I just don't think they need it. My girls are 11 and 7. At this age let's see more long term data before making a decision.

I am happy to have mine. Age is the predominate factor for me.

I also will note the like some others I am no mask now. Had rona and the J&J vax over a month ago. When I tell people who ask why I don't wear a mask, I have not had one person say anything other then they would do the same. I think people are waking up to vax or natural T cell immunity being real.

packgrad said:

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PackPA2015 said:

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Mormad said:

---

I literally don't know a single person who thinks we only reach herd immunity by vaccination only. Do those people truly exist? Herd immunity has been discussed well before these particular vaccines existed. That type of unilateral thinking drives me nuts (if you're correct and those people truly believe such nonsense).

I say, given the choice, I'd much rather my own children become immune through vaccination than through natural infection, no matter how low the perceived risk. But that's just me based on my own biases, knowledge, experiences.

---

Now, I would love more for 50-67% of adults to have the vaccine and protect all of our children by default, but we shall see.

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We are already at 50+% vaccinated in NC. The children are protected by default now.

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Unfortunately, my county is nowhere near that percentage, so no my kid is not. We are at 27% with one dose as of yesterday and it has not moved in a couple of days.

RunsWithWolves26 said:

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Actually, we are only at 50% with one shot, not fully vaccinated. To your point about herd immunity and people getting only a mild case. I brought this up to my brother months ago and his response was simple. At the hospital he works at, they have actually had more deaths occur from people with mild cases not dieing from covid per say but dieing later on from the blood clots covid caused them. Basically, get the shot and avoid the risk of that. A "mild case" that only affects a "small portion" could potentially be eliminated by getting a shot.

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Risks of COVID go far beyond dying too.

Lingering symptoms or true Long-haul COVID ain't no fun either. Better than dying, but not awesome and much more probable than dying too. Vaccination decreases those risks also.

RunsWithWolves26 said:

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Actually, we are only at 50% with one shot, not fully vaccinated. To your point about herd immunity and people getting only a mild case. I brought this up to my brother months ago and his response was simple. At the hospital he works at, they have actually had more deaths occur from people with mild cases not dieing from covid per say but dieing later on from the blood clots covid caused them. Basically, get the shot and avoid the risk of that. A "mild case" that only affects a "small portion" could potentially be eliminated by getting a shot.

---

One shot is the only relevant metric. Regarding what your brother told you, those still count as covid deaths. The "mild cases" that do that are outliers. What hospital is he at?

Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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Mormad said:

---

I literally don't know a single person who thinks we only reach herd immunity by vaccination only. Do those people truly exist? Herd immunity has been discussed well before these particular vaccines existed. That type of unilateral thinking drives me nuts (if you're correct and those people truly believe such nonsense).

I say, given the choice, I'd much rather my own children become immune through vaccination than through natural infection, no matter how low the perceived risk. But that's just me based on my own biases, knowledge, experiences.

---

The cbs news medical correspondent linked above clearly only believes in vaccinations.

---

Based on what?

I didn't hear anything like that in the clip.

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Don't let your children play with children that have not been vaccinated. Of course you didn't hear anything like that. Lol.

---

He didn't say not to let your children play with unvaxxed kids.

He said parents of vaxxed kids could make that a stipulation of who their kids play with.

The implication was that doing so would apply social pressure and potentially encourage parents of unvaxxed kids to get their kids vaccinated.

I guess I don't expect doctors to be agnostic about vaccination rates. Lol.

---

You're arguing "he didn't say not to let your children play with unvaxxed kids. He just said parents could say that kids had to be vaccinated to play with their kids". Lol. Mmkay.

packgrad said:

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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Actually, we are only at 50% with one shot, not fully vaccinated. To your point about herd immunity and people getting only a mild case. I brought this up to my brother months ago and his response was simple. At the hospital he works at, they have actually had more deaths occur from people with mild cases not dieing from covid per say but dieing later on from the blood clots covid caused them. Basically, get the shot and avoid the risk of that. A "mild case" that only affects a "small portion" could potentially be eliminated by getting a shot.

---

One shot is the only relevant metric. Regarding what your brother told you, those still count as covid deaths. The "mild cases" that do that are outliers. What hospital is he at?

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One shot isn't the only relevant metric but we can go with that if you would like to. I never said they didn't count as covid deaths. As far as an outlier, he has a masters in clinical research as well and 67% of covid patients he has seen developed blood clots after having covid. Now, you can call that an outlier if you would like and we can go with that as well. Your opinion appears to be, "so what if you get a mild case, you'll be fine." The facts tell a completely different story.

RunsWithWolves26 said:

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packgrad said:

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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Actually, we are only at 50% with one shot, not fully vaccinated. To your point about herd immunity and people getting only a mild case. I brought this up to my brother months ago and his response was simple. At the hospital he works at, they have actually had more deaths occur from people with mild cases not dieing from covid per say but dieing later on from the blood clots covid caused them. Basically, get the shot and avoid the risk of that. A "mild case" that only affects a "small portion" could potentially be eliminated by getting a shot.

---

One shot is the only relevant metric. Regarding what your brother told you, those still count as covid deaths. The "mild cases" that do that are outliers. What hospital is he at?

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One shot isn't the only relevant metric but we can go with that if you would like to. I never said they didn't count as covid deaths. As far as an outlier, he has a masters in clinical research as well and 67% of covid patients he has seen developed blood clots after having covid. Now, you can call that an outlier if you would like and we can go with that as well. Your opinion appears to be, "so what if you get a mild case, you'll be fine." The facts tell a completely different story.

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One shot is the only relevant metric as to full opening.

67% of his patients developed blood clots? I'm going to guess you lost something in translation because that is not a stat I've seen represented anywhere else. Not even in ICUs.

Nothing lost in translation. I personally know 8 people who had, as you call it, a mild case of covid and within 4 weeks, developed blood clots, with 4 of them having to be in ICU for several days until they were well enough to go back home. Just lost a man I've known 30 years a couple weeks ago who had a "mild case" developed blood clots and was dead 2 days later. It may not fit your line of thinking but just because a case is "mild" as you call it, sure doesn't make it ok. Guess how you all but eliminate that? Get a damn shot and stop thinking that just because you don't like the messanger, that it's some type of conspiracy. Want to solve all this? Get the shot and let's carry on with life.

You defined it for yourself. If my "bogus stat" fit into the little narrative you love to continue on about, you'd be fine with it. It doesn't so there you claim someone is "chastising" you because they don't follow your line of thinking or say what you like. As you would say "go back and read the thread", you can then see what chastising is and how well you are at it. It's no wonder you've gotten a 10 year ban from another site.

I also ain't afraid to leave the house. Blood clots aren't contagious, that I'm aware of and as someone who has been fully vaccinated, I feel safe in that. Now, if we use your logic, people should just do whatever and not get the shot if they don't want to. Seems they would have a lot less protection that way then if they were fully vaccinated, no?

packgrad said:

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Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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Mormad said:

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I literally don't know a single person who thinks we only reach herd immunity by vaccination only. Do those people truly exist? Herd immunity has been discussed well before these particular vaccines existed. That type of unilateral thinking drives me nuts (if you're correct and those people truly believe such nonsense).

I say, given the choice, I'd much rather my own children become immune through vaccination than through natural infection, no matter how low the perceived risk. But that's just me based on my own biases, knowledge, experiences.

---

The cbs news medical correspondent linked above clearly only believes in vaccinations.

---

Based on what?

I didn't hear anything like that in the clip.

---

Don't let your children play with children that have not been vaccinated. Of course you didn't hear anything like that. Lol.

---

He didn't say not to let your children play with unvaxxed kids.

He said parents of vaxxed kids could make that a stipulation of who their kids play with.

The implication was that doing so would apply social pressure and potentially encourage parents of unvaxxed kids to get their kids vaccinated.

I guess I don't expect doctors to be agnostic about vaccination rates. Lol.

---

You're arguing "he didn't say not to let your children play with unvaxxed kids. He just said parents could say that kids had to be vaccinated to play with their kids". Lol. Mmkay.

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Correct, and his stance is not surprising at all.

I have no expectation that doctors be ambivalent about vaccinations that appear both very safe and highly effective during a global pandemic.

95%+ of doctors are going to be huge proponents.

RunsWithWolves26 said:

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You defined it for yourself. If my "bogus stat" fit into the little narrative you love to continue on about, you'd be fine with it. It doesn't so there you claim someone is "chastising" you because they don't follow your line of thinking or say what you like. As you would say "go back and read the thread", you can then see what chastising is and how well you are at it. It's no wonder you've gotten a 10 year ban from another site.

I also ain't afraid to leave the house. Blood clots aren't contagious, that I'm aware of and as someone who has been fully vaccinated, I feel safe in that. Now, if we use your logic, people should just do whatever and not get the shot if they don't want to. Seems they would have a lot less protection that way then if they were fully vaccinated, no?

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Nah. I don't think I'd be dumb enough to say that 67% of people did x without at least googling it first to push my narrative.

News to me about the 10 year ban. Thanks for the info. My life isn't message boards so I guess it hasn't had the impact on me that maybe it would on you.

Yes, I definitely think people should not have to get the shot if they don't want to. I've had the shots, but understand people might choose not to.

packgrad said:

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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You defined it for yourself. If my "bogus stat" fit into the little narrative you love to continue on about, you'd be fine with it. It doesn't so there you claim someone is "chastising" you because they don't follow your line of thinking or say what you like. As you would say "go back and read the thread", you can then see what chastising is and how well you are at it. It's no wonder you've gotten a 10 year ban from another site.

I also ain't afraid to leave the house. Blood clots aren't contagious, that I'm aware of and as someone who has been fully vaccinated, I feel safe in that. Now, if we use your logic, people should just do whatever and not get the shot if they don't want to. Seems they would have a lot less protection that way then if they were fully vaccinated, no?

---

Nah. I don't think I'd be dumb enough to say that 67% of people did x without at least googling it first to push my narrative.

News to me about the 10 year ban. Thanks for the info. My life isn't message boards so I guess it hasn't had the impact on me that maybe it would on you.

Yes, I definitely think people should not have to get the shot if they don't want to. I've had the shots, but understand people might choose not to.

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This is more micro/macro analysis.

Micro: A person having the liberty to decide whether to get vaccinated or get their kid vaccinated (for whatever reason they choose) is highly supportable.

Macro: If enough people make the decision to not get vaccinated, it's very counter-productive to reaching herd immunity and getting back to fully-open-with-no-masks normal.

Navigating the space between the micro and macro (both of which are true) is why this is so challenging from a public health policy perspective.

Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

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RunsWithWolves26 said:

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You defined it for yourself. If my "bogus stat" fit into the little narrative you love to continue on about, you'd be fine with it. It doesn't so there you claim someone is "chastising" you because they don't follow your line of thinking or say what you like. As you would say "go back and read the thread", you can then see what chastising is and how well you are at it. It's no wonder you've gotten a 10 year ban from another site.

I also ain't afraid to leave the house. Blood clots aren't contagious, that I'm aware of and as someone who has been fully vaccinated, I feel safe in that. Now, if we use your logic, people should just do whatever and not get the shot if they don't want to. Seems they would have a lot less protection that way then if they were fully vaccinated, no?

---

Nah. I don't think I'd be dumb enough to say that 67% of people did x without at least googling it first to push my narrative.

News to me about the 10 year ban. Thanks for the info. My life isn't message boards so I guess it hasn't had the impact on me that maybe it would on you.

Yes, I definitely think people should not have to get the shot if they don't want to. I've had the shots, but understand people might choose not to.

---

This is more micro/macro analysis.

Micro: A person having the liberty to decide whether to get vaccinated or get their kid vaccinated (for whatever reason they choose) is highly supportable.

Macro: If enough people make the decision to not get vaccinated, it's very counter-productive to reaching herd immunity and getting back to fully-open-with-no-masks normal.

Navigating the space between the micro and macro (both of which are true) is why this is so challenging from a public health policy perspective.

---

On a macro level you can still get there with natural immunity. An argument could be made we are there now using NC's first shot percentage and the hypothetical CDC's disease burden percentage.

Daviewolf83 said:

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packgrad said:

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PackPA2015 said:

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Mormad said:

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I literally don't know a single person who thinks we only reach herd immunity by vaccination only. Do those people truly exist? Herd immunity has been discussed well before these particular vaccines existed. That type of unilateral thinking drives me nuts (if you're correct and those people truly believe such nonsense).

I say, given the choice, I'd much rather my own children become immune through vaccination than through natural infection, no matter how low the perceived risk. But that's just me based on my own biases, knowledge, experiences.

---

Now, I would love more for 50-67% of adults to have the vaccine and protect all of our children by default, but we shall see.

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We are already at 50+% vaccinated in NC. The children are protected by default now.

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We are not 50% vaccinated in NC, but you keep posting this. We have vaccinated slightly more than 50% of adults, but not 50% of the population.

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He specifically said of adults. That is what I was replying to.