Coronavirus

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Wayland
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Speaking of fun data. Someone in the media was complaining about the scale of some of the graphs on DHHS and how they were manipulating the axis to make things look better. DHHS secretary said it was probably just whoever updated the graph made a preferential change.

We talk so much about hospitalizations. I just grabbed 7000 empty beds since that is what the AVAILABLE hospital capacity has been around these last few weeks (per NC DHHS). Again, that is EMPTY beds, AVAILABLE for COVID patients and slapped it on the hospitalizations graph, to give better context to what we are up against.

statefan91
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Sierrawolf said:

For those of you who are better with charts, etc. than I am...are we seeing flattening of the curve? I know that dail cases are increasing with more testing, but I'm assuming that we might still be seeing percentages decrease? Just trying to see if we're still on track to proceed with Phase 1 & Phase 2.
Will defer to Davie on charts but the target of Phase 1 start is still Saturday, May 9th, after the current stay at home order expires.

I think people are going to see that date and just start thinking they're going back to somewhat normal. Honestly Cooper probably should've made it a Monday start for Phase 1 instead of the weekend.
packgrad
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Wayland said:

Speaking of fun data. Someone in the media was complaining about the scale of some of the graphs on DHHS and how they were manipulating the axis to make things look better. DHHS secretary said it was probably just whoever updated the graph made a preferential change.

We talk so much about hospitalizations. I just grabbed 7000 empty beds since that is what the AVAILABLE hospital capacity has been around these last few weeks (per NC DHHS). Again, that is EMPTY beds, AVAILABLE for COVID patients and slapped it on the hospitalizations graph, to give better context to what we are up against.




Fantastic. I'm sharing to FB.
Wayland
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The problem with Phase 1, is that we are basically IN phase 1 now. Except some additional retailers will be allowed to be open with social distancing and parks open (I know a lot of local parks are already, so does this mean state parks)?

And the rules for each phase are so generic. There are 1000s of questions about exceptions and what is and isn't allowed that aren't actually answered.
Wayland
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packgrad said:

Wayland said:

Speaking of fun data. Someone in the media was complaining about the scale of some of the graphs on DHHS and how they were manipulating the axis to make things look better. DHHS secretary said it was probably just whoever updated the graph made a preferential change.

We talk so much about hospitalizations. I just grabbed 7000 empty beds since that is what the AVAILABLE hospital capacity has been around these last few weeks (per NC DHHS). Again, that is EMPTY beds, AVAILABLE for COVID patients and slapped it on the hospitalizations graph, to give better context to what we are up against.




Fantastic. I'm sharing to FB.
Now, I did leave off the ~900-1000 ICU beds and ~2400 ventilators that have typically (during the covid pandemic) been AVAILABLE AND NOT IN USE in NC hospitals (per DHHS).

But since DHHS only presents total hospitalizations and does not break down criticality, I went generic.
wilmwolf
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Wayland said:

Speaking of fun data. Someone in the media was complaining about the scale of some of the graphs on DHHS and how they were manipulating the axis to make things look better. DHHS secretary said it was probably just whoever updated the graph made a preferential change.

We talk so much about hospitalizations. I just grabbed 7000 empty beds since that is what the AVAILABLE hospital capacity has been around these last few weeks (per NC DHHS). Again, that is EMPTY beds, AVAILABLE for COVID patients and slapped it on the hospitalizations graph, to give better context to what we are up against.


Nicely done. I think the fears of overwhelming hospitals were valid, but only in the most densely populated areas. Any event in a place like NYC is going to overwhelm the hospitals. I think back to 9/11 and what that was like from an emergency standpoint. It's very clear that we are nowhere near overwhelming the system here in NC, and I doubt we would have been had we just kept going about our normal lives.
Colonel Armstrong
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Wayland said:

The problem with Phase 1, is that we are basically IN phase 1 now. Except some additional retailers will be allowed to be open with social distancing and parks open (I know a lot of local parks are already, so does this mean state parks)?

And the rules for each phase are so generic. There are 1000s of questions about exceptions and what is and isn't allowed that aren't actually answered.
100% agree. My biggest issue with Cooper's handling of this situation hasn't been that he extended the stay at home order to May 8th, but that Phase 1 is so incredibly weak and conservative.

Essentially the only difference between what we're currently allowed to do and Phase one is that retailers can open in a reduced capacity.
Wayland
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FYI. There is a media update today at 11:30am.

They are typically available live here: https://www.ncdps.gov/storm-update

But the video link appears down at the moment.

The Spanish language stream was live (pre-meeting). It looked like they are prepping as if some sort of document is going to be signed.
Wayland
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Wayland said:

Wayland said:

Wayland said:

Wayland said:

Wayland said:

4/29/2020 Morning DHHS update (as of 11:00am)

NC Cases*
9948
NC Deaths**
354
Currently Hospitalized
551 <- New High
Completed Tests
118,440

196 Deaths are now Congregate (+8 since yesterday)
34 Deaths are now Unknown Setting (+1)
+12 Deaths Overall since yesterday. (+9 Not GenPop, +3 GenPop)

124 Deaths assumed General Population (+3)
230 Congregate and Unknown Setting. (+9)

86 Congregate Facilities now have an outbreak. (+1)

WRAL is at 366 (+2) and NandO is at 366 deaths

380 positive cases over 5688 new tests. 6.7% positive rate.

Good low positive daily rate. Likely less congregate outbreaks represented.
Spike in hospitalizations. Would like to see a breakdown of ICU/non-ICU here.
DHHS still lagging media on deaths. WRAL and NandO had those totals late last night, again lag is likely due to trying to confirm congregate or not.

149 of the new cases came from congregate facilities.

Wake County is allowing their separate Stay at Home order to expire, and will continue under the state's order.
4/30/2020 Morning DHHS update (as of 11:00am)

NC Cases*
10509
NC Deaths**
378
Currently Hospitalized
546
Completed Tests
128,036

212 Deaths are now Congregate (+16 since yesterday)
37 Deaths are now Unknown Setting (+3)
+24 Deaths Overall since yesterday. (+19 Not GenPop, +5 GenPop)

129 Deaths assumed General Population (+5)
249 Congregate and Unknown Setting. (+19)

87 Congregate Facilities now have an outbreak. (+1)

WRAL is at 386 (+2) and NandO is at 385 deaths

561 positive cases over 9596 new tests. 5.8% positive rate.

5/1/2020 Morning DHHS update (as of 11:00am)

NC Cases*
10,923
NC Deaths**
399
Currently Hospitalized
547
Completed Tests
133,832

229 Deaths are now Congregate (+17 since yesterday)
36 Deaths are now Unknown Setting (-1)
+21 Deaths Overall since yesterday. (+16 Not GenPop, +5 GenPop)

134 Deaths assumed General Population (+5)
265 Congregate and Unknown Setting. (+16)

92 Congregate Facilities now have an outbreak. (+5)

WRAL is at 411 (+2) and NandO is at 414 deaths

414 positive cases over 5796 new tests. 7.1% positive rate.


160 of the new positive cases are in congregate facilities.

Guilford County is up to 30 deaths and as of Tuesday's report they did not have a single congregate setting death, which is super unusual. Most of the high death count counties have significant congregate death tolls. So what is going on in Guilford County or are they submitting incomplete data? It sticks out as such an outlier, I would love to know what is actually happening there.

5/2/2020 Morning DHHS update (as of 11:00am)

NC Cases*
11,509
NC Deaths**
420
Currently Hospitalized
502
Completed Tests
139,475

245 Deaths are now Congregate (+16 since yesterday)
35 Deaths are now Unknown Setting (-1)
+21 Deaths Overall since yesterday. (+15 Not GenPop, +6 GenPop)

140 Deaths assumed General Population (+6)
280 Congregate and Unknown Setting. (+15)

95 Congregate Facilities now have an outbreak. (+3)

WRAL is at 420 (+2) and NandO is at 419 deaths

586 positive cases over 5642 new tests. 10.4% positive rate.


102 of the new positive cases are in congregate facilities.

Highest single day of positive cases, although the positive rate is only about 1.5% average. I wish I knew what congregate or workplaces testing was in there.
5/3/2020 Morning DHHS update (as of 11:00am)

NC Cases*
11,664
NC Deaths**
422
Currently Hospitalized
475
Completed Tests
143,835

246 Deaths are now Congregate (+1 since yesterday)
36 Deaths are now Unknown Setting (+1)
+2 Deaths Overall since yesterday. (+2 Not GenPop, +0 GenPop)

140 Deaths assumed General Population (+6)
282 Congregate and Unknown Setting. (+15)

97 Congregate Facilities now have an outbreak. (+2)

WRAL is at 435 (+2) and NandO is at 432 deaths

155 positive cases over 4360 new tests. 3.6% positive rate.


42 of the new positive cases are in congregate facilities.

DHHS has caught up to media as of yesterday morning. They are now lagging 8-13 behind again.
5/4/2020 Morning DHHS update (as of 11:00am)

NC Cases*
11,848
NC Deaths**
430
Currently Hospitalized
498
Completed Tests
146,439

252 Deaths are now Congregate (+6 since yesterday)
37 Deaths are now Unknown Setting (+1)
+8 Deaths Overall since yesterday. (+7 Not GenPop, +1 GenPop)

141 Deaths assumed General Population (+1)
289 Congregate and Unknown Setting. (+7)

99 Congregate Facilities now have an outbreak. (+2)

WRAL is at 450 (+2) and NandO is at 442 deaths <- should hop up shortly from weekend lag.

184 positive cases over 2604 new tests. 7.1% positive rate.

DHHS lagging again. Behind 10 or so deaths, but they usually catch up later in the week with verification.
Wayland
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Per briefing, specific guidance on Phase 1 should come tomorrow or Wednesday.
Daviewolf83
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Wayland said:

The problem with Phase 1, is that we are basically IN phase 1 now. Except some additional retailers will be allowed to be open with social distancing and parks open (I know a lot of local parks are already, so does this mean state parks)?

And the rules for each phase are so generic. There are 1000s of questions about exceptions and what is and isn't allowed that aren't actually answered.
Parks does mean the state parks. Likely when they open the state parks, some of the federal parks will be able to open as well. It would be nice if the media could ask this question and get clarification. I agree, so much of the guidelines are generic. I personally believe just open everything (except congregate facilities and nursing homes) and have us wear masks and social distance when in public.

I also read something interesting about Ireland and their reopening plans. I have a coworker who lives in Dublin and he sent me an article with their reopening guidelines this morning. We complain about our state and how slow it is, but it much faster than Ireland is planning. They are going to be in 5 phases and the first couple of phases get them to the point we are going to get to in Phase 1. I have included a link to the article below. You should also read the comments to the article listing their phases - they are quite interesting.

Guidelines for reopening Ireland

Here are the latest statistics on Covid-19 infections and deaths in Ireland:

Population: 4.9 Million (North Carolina by comparison is 10.5 Million)
Total Cases: 21,506
Deaths: 1,303

So, Ireland has roughly half the population of NC, but it has twice as many cases and roughly 3x the number of deaths. Base on my conversation with my coworker last week, like North Carolina, Ireland has had a significant issue with deaths in the nursing facilities and apparently this has driven a larger percentage of the deaths.
Wayland
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Listening to Cohen talk about Phase 1, she emphasized that activities that did not include staying idle (sitting/standing) inside would be prioritized as acceptable activities. And that did involve commerce activities like shopping.

But again, I am sure there will be as many questions as answers as this guidance comes out tomorrow/Wednesday.
metcalfmafia
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Do parks include beaches in this phase stuff?
PackBacker07
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If I have the timeline down, it seems even on the most optimistic projections, NC would get back to semi-normal life in mid/late-July, correct?
Wayland
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PackBacker07 said:

If I have the timeline down, it seems even on the most optimistic projections, NC would get back to semi-normal life in mid/late-July, correct?
What is normal?

The EARLIEST dates for each phase based on guidance so far are

Phase 1 - May 8/9
Phase 2 - May 22/23
Phase 3 - June 19/20

If Phase 3 is 'normal' then the absolute earliest is late June. If whatever is beyond Phase 3 is 'normal' than who knows.

And again, this is all subject to the will over the Governor and again reflect the absolute MINIMUM per the phased plan.
Packchem91
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Wayland said:

PackBacker07 said:

If I have the timeline down, it seems even on the most optimistic projections, NC would get back to semi-normal life in mid/late-July, correct?
What is normal?

The EARLIEST dates for each phase based on guidance so far are

Phase 1 - May 8/9
Phase 2 - May 22/23
Phase 3 - June 19/20

If Phase 3 is 'normal' then the absolute earliest is late June. If whatever is beyond Phase 3 is 'normal' than who knows.

And again, this is all subject to the will over the Governor and again reflect the absolute MINIMUM per the phased plan.
Everyone is struggling with these terms. I've been looking at TripAdvisor forms for Yellowstone and for Maine based on planned trips this summer and fall. In both, how the Phases and timing, and impact on tourism in those states/ regions is unclear. Both have Phase3 driven 14-day quarantines -- so essentially no out-of-state travelers.

But when does Ph3 start, what exactly is required to get there....sounds like neither region is exactly certain, even if things go well (and then, what impact do businesses tanking because there are no tourists have when they weigh in on this to influence).
wilmwolf
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I can't imagine what some folks are feeling right now. My life hasn't really been changed much at all. My business is still operating, I don't have kids, I don't go out much anyway, and yet, I feel like I'm about to explode with anxiety sometimes. I can't imagine what it's like for people whose lives have been drastically affected. I don't know if all of those folks are going to make it to the end of June at this rate.
Just a guy on the sunshine squad.
Wayland
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Everyone seen the new panic porn put out by the NY Times.

3000 deaths/200,000 cases a day by the end of June?

CNN had it on their front page, edit. (looks like CNN took it down now in favor of the IHME drama.)

NY Times still has it up.

Of course per WaPo, the creator of the model had some things to say:

" The creator of the model said the numbers are unfinished projections shown to the CDC as a work in progress. The work contained a wide range of possibilities and modeling was not complete, according to Justin Lessler, an associate professor of epidemiology at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, who created the model.
He said he didn't know how the update was turned into a slidedeck by government officials and shared with news organizations. The data was first reported by the New York Times.
"I had no role in the process by which that was presented and shown. This data was presented as an FYI to CDC it was not in any way intended to be a forecast," Lessler said."



Daviewolf83
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Packchem91 said:

Wayland said:

PackBacker07 said:

If I have the timeline down, it seems even on the most optimistic projections, NC would get back to semi-normal life in mid/late-July, correct?
What is normal?

The EARLIEST dates for each phase based on guidance so far are

Phase 1 - May 8/9
Phase 2 - May 22/23
Phase 3 - June 19/20

If Phase 3 is 'normal' then the absolute earliest is late June. If whatever is beyond Phase 3 is 'normal' than who knows.

And again, this is all subject to the will over the Governor and again reflect the absolute MINIMUM per the phased plan.
Everyone is struggling with these terms. I've been looking at TripAdvisor forms for Yellowstone and for Maine based on planned trips this summer and fall. In both, how the Phases and timing, and impact on tourism in those states/ regions is unclear. Both have Phase3 driven 14-day quarantines -- so essentially no out-of-state travelers.

But when does Ph3 start, what exactly is required to get there....sounds like neither region is exactly certain, even if things go well (and then, what impact do businesses tanking because there are no tourists have when they weigh in on this to influence).
I do not believe we know at this point what travel will look like in Phase 3. Every state is different and will use different guidelines and timeframes from those published by the Federal taskforce.

For example, let's assume college football is played in some form this Fall and even though fans are likely not going to be allowed (my current opinion), parents will likely be allowed to attend (I can do a lot of social distancing in an almost empty stadium). My son will have games out of state at Louisville and Florida State. I looked at Florida's guidelines and it appears in Phase 3, Florida tourism will not market travel from out of state, but they will allow for vacation rentals. They do not make any mention of visitors from outside of the state having to quarantine when they arrive in the state from another state for Phase 3. They do mention a restriction as part of Phase 2, saying people who provide vacation rentals can only rent to people who are from the state of Florida. They do not include this restriction for Phase 3. With regards to Kentucky, I can not find anything that mentions visitation from out-of-state and lodging out in the future. I also checked Indiana, since we stayed just over the river from Louisville two years ago. For Indiana, I could not find any restrictions on visitors from out-of-state.

I can imagine you and other families are going to have to be very flexible with you plans and it may be that most vacations this Summer will not be possible, if travel out-of-state is required. Vacations in the state of NC might be more easy, but you will be competing with everyone else who is unable to travel out-of-state.
Daviewolf83
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Wayland said:

Everyone seen the new panic porn put out by the NY Times.

3000 deaths/200,000 cases a day by the end of June?

CNN had it on their front page, edit. (looks like CNN took it down now in favor of the IHME drama.)

NY Times still has it up.

Of course per WaPo, the creator of the model had some things to say:

" The creator of the model said the numbers are unfinished projections shown to the CDC as a work in progress. The work contained a wide range of possibilities and modeling was not complete, according to Justin Lessler, an associate professor of epidemiology at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, who created the model.
He said he didn't know how the update was turned into a slidedeck by government officials and shared with news organizations. The data was first reported by the New York Times.
"I had no role in the process by which that was presented and shown. This data was presented as an FYI to CDC it was not in any way intended to be a forecast," Lessler said."




Most likely, the chart was created by Karen's inside the government who are opposed to reopening the economy and they leaked it to try and influence the general public. It is definitely counter to what Dr. Birx said just a week ago about their expectations with regards to case growth by the end of May (projecting downward trend in cases). I expect Karen's in the local media to pull similar stunts and try to influence the public to reject reopening. WRAL is already hard a work at this effort.

Bottom line, as we start to reopen, cases will increase, but not all cases are created equal. You have to consider the demographics of the people infected and make assumptions based on the actual data as to the impact. For example, in NC we know that people between the age of 25 and 49 have a 99.65% chance of survival if they get the virus. Under the age of 25, current statistics in NC say you have a 100% chance of survival. So, even if cases double, it does not mean we will see deaths double. If NC could figure out a way to keep the virus out of nursing homes, you would only see deaths go from 5 a day to 10 a day, if cases double and keep the same demographics. We also know NC has had case levels over 500 per day and it has not come close to exceeding the healthcare capacity.

Additionally, the models being proposed are likely not considering new therapeutic treatments that are being developed. These treatments should be successful in reducing death rates, particularly in the people with preexisting conditions and compromised immune systems. Recently, Remdesivir has been approved and it may help some people (there are some limits on who can receive this drug). It is not a cure, but it is an important first step. There are other drugs that have even more potential to help that are currently in clinical trial (ACE blockers and Angiotensin Receptor Blockers). These drugs are meant to stop the effects of Interleukin-6 and block the inflammation, fluid build-up, and scarring caused by the cytokine storm prompted by Interleukin-6. There is a drug developed for AIDS (also shows good results against some forms of cancer) that may also have a big impact. This drug is called Leronlimab and it helps to stop one of the cytokine storms that impacts the patient's ability to fight the virus. Also, there is a drug currently in clinical trial that works to block the virus' ability to enter the human cells and begin replication. I am optimistic there will be combination of drugs available by July/August that help to reduce mortality.

Wayland
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Totally agree. As we expand testing the CFR in NC will drop, all positive cases are not created equal. Part of me is just going crazy after 8 weeks of staring at these numbers and almost knowing what they will say before they say them. Knowing these days that the vast majority of the deaths are out of nursing homes and by keeping it out of nursing homes we can reduce covid deaths and deaths by people who also happen to have covid.

RE: Football. I hope the team plays this fall, with or without fans and you can go watch your kid play.

Kids (even big ones) need to go out and live again.
RunsWithWolves26
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Haven't posted in a while but have kept reading. Hopefully all y'all are safe. As for myself, I'm officially over this ***** Hoping more will start feeling the same way and saying screw government. If they actually concentrated on nursing homes instead of everything else, I may actually care what they say to do. Alaa, they don't and therefore, I don't listen to anything they say anymore. Millions have already had this ***** Maybe this winter, they will dominate the news with the flu, shoving their numbers down our asses every single second of every single day.
Wayland
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RunsWithWolves26 said:

Haven't posted in a while but have kept reading. Hopefully all y'all are safe. As for myself, I'm officially over this ***** Hoping more will start feeling the same way and saying screw government. If they actually concentrated on nursing homes instead of everything else, I may actually care what they say to do. Alaa, they don't and therefore, I don't listen to anything they say anymore. Millions have already had this ***** Maybe this winter, they will dominate the news with the flu, shoving their numbers down our asses every single second of every single day.
I am numb to it as well. They screwed the nursing home thing from the start (despite what happened in Kirkland) and said things like "It ill be really hard for them not to have visitors" instead of throwing EVERYTHING at them to protect them. And that is not just limited to NC, other states dropped the ball worse.

Again, this is what I said on March 15th, and I don't know if my opinion has changed.

Quote:

Practice good hygiene, try to protect susceptible populations, and carry forward. I feel there is a massive vacuum in leadership and failing by the U.S to provide testing and so it has made it hard to make any kind of informed decision other than to shut it all down. And so that is where we are, shutting it all down. Likely a gross overreaction but no one knows what the true numbers are. Until testing is in place, the shut down is just to prevent mass hysteria.
Once we got a handle on what the threat was, we should have acted decisively and moved forward.
RunsWithWolves26
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Wayland said:

RunsWithWolves26 said:

Haven't posted in a while but have kept reading. Hopefully all y'all are safe. As for myself, I'm officially over this ***** Hoping more will start feeling the same way and saying screw government. If they actually concentrated on nursing homes instead of everything else, I may actually care what they say to do. Alaa, they don't and therefore, I don't listen to anything they say anymore. Millions have already had this ***** Maybe this winter, they will dominate the news with the flu, shoving their numbers down our asses every single second of every single day.
I am numb to it as well. They screwed the nursing home thing from the start (despite what happened in Kirkland) and said things like "It ill be really hard for them not to have visitors" instead of throwing EVERYTHING at them to protect them. And that is not just limited to NC, other states dropped the ball worse.

Again, this is what I said on March 15th, and I don't know if my opinion has changed.

Quote:

Practice good hygiene, try to protect susceptible populations, and carry forward. I feel there is a massive vacuum in leadership and failing by the U.S to provide testing and so it has made it hard to make any kind of informed decision other than to shut it all down. And so that is where we are, shutting it all down. Likely a gross overreaction but no one knows what the true numbers are. Until testing is in place, the shut down is just to prevent mass hysteria.
Once we got a handle on what the threat was, we should have acted decisively and moved forward.


They had one chance. Hopefully the people won't let the government steal their rights like this again.
packgrad
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California starts their process opening up Friday. Saw a tweet from Brett Jensen earlier today I think saying to expect NC to open up slower than states like NY and NJ. Man, I hope he's wrong. If not someone text me the address for the riots
statefan91
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packgrad said:

California starts their process opening up Friday. Saw a tweet from Brett Jensen earlier today I think saying to expect NC to open up slower than states like NY and NJ. Man, I hope he's wrong. If not someone text me the address for the riots


If this is the tweet, I think it's just saying we're yet to relax any measures, assuming they come 5/9.

packgrad
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statefan91 said:

packgrad said:

California starts their process opening up Friday. Saw a tweet from Brett Jensen earlier today I think saying to expect NC to open up slower than states like NY and NJ. Man, I hope he's wrong. If not someone text me the address for the riots


If this is the tweet, I think it's just saying we're yet to relax any measures, assuming they come 5/9.




That's it. Thanks for the clarification.
Pacfanweb
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If Cooper wasn't going to relax things, I would think he'd go ahead and tell us now...it wouldn't be a good idea to get almost to the end date and then extend it again.
Wayland
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Pacfanweb said:

If Cooper wasn't going to relax things, I would think he'd go ahead and tell us now...it wouldn't be a good idea to get almost to the end date and then extend it again.
If he didn't move to Phase 1 on the weekend, I get a feeling people might move to Phase 1 on their own.
Daviewolf83
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Wait until state employees (including teachers) are told they will not be getting salary increases for the next few years. The economy will be in no shape to raise taxes to make up for the revenue loss and there is not magical money tree the state can tap into for money. The federal government is not going to be able to bail out all the states to the degree the state's will want, so there will have to be cuts in state spending and programs.

I am lucky to have a job, but my company announced two weeks ago that all wages are frozen and people who were getting raises have had those rolled back. Government employees should be faced with the same choice. The government decided to run an the experiment of shutting down the economy to try to "flatten a curve." This has never been tried before and at this point, I would say the results have marginally successful. Right now, we have seen almost 70,000 deaths nationwide and the economy as been damaged to the extent that it will take years to recover.
Packchem91
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Daviewolf83 said:

Wait until state employees (including teachers) are told they will not be getting salary increases for the next few years. The economy will be in no shape to raise taxes to make up for the revenue loss and there is not magical money tree the state can tap into for money. The federal government is not going to be able to bail out all the states to the degree the state's will want, so there will have to be cuts in state spending and programs.

I am lucky to have a job, but my company announced two weeks ago that all wages are frozen and people who were getting raises have had those rolled back. Government employees should be faced with the same choice. The government decided to run an the experiment of shutting down the economy to try to "flatten a curve." This has never been tried before and at this point, I would say the results have marginally successful. Right now, we have seen almost 70,000 deaths nationwide and the economy as been damaged to the extent that it will take years to recover.
Tax revenues at all levels are being decimated. Think of FL and the Orlando area, and the billions of spend and tax revenue lost out while the parks are closed. And they can't just make more days to make that up.
RunsWithWolves26
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My hope is this little experiment that the almighty government tried will be the last time they are allowed to try it. If it happens again, I hope all hell breaks loose in the streets and every damn one of those crooks are run out of the country. Their little experiment failed miserably.
TopsailWolf
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Without a doubt. Surf City was busier than a July 4th weekend last weekend without public parking and no food options. The people will REVOLT.
wilmwolf
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I appreciate the relative decorum with which this thread has been conducted. There are different view points here, but it's been a very reasonable, intelligent discussion. Unlike TOS, where they have a running death total in the thread title, and the same old characters shout down anyone with a non-apocalyptic viewpoint.
Just a guy on the sunshine squad.
Packchem91
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wilmwolf80 said:

I appreciate the relative decorum with which this thread has been conducted. There are different view points here, but it's been a very reasonable, intelligent discussion. Unlike TOS, where they have a running death total in the thread title, and the same old characters shout down anyone with a non-apocalyptic viewpoint.
I agree -- and I think much of that is because this thread has primarily focused on the data, rather than the sides of a political debate.
When you look at the numbers and the nuance of them, you can more easily work around the emotional part of the argument.

I'm concerned nationally though that its about to, if possible, get even more political as states open back up, and deaths / case counts increase, and one side swoops in to say "see, we told you so, but all you care about is $$$"...and then it really goes off the rails.
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