wilmwolf80 said:

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"The article mentions some of the well know viral escapes from labs around the world, some of which I have read studies about in the past. Accidents happen, even when the best of safeguards are in place. When accidents do happen, it is important and necessary for there to be total transparency as to what happened and in this case, it definitely appears transparency has been lacking."


Exactly. I don't care about assigning "blame" for Covid. But I care very much to know if pandemic level viruses are being created that can specifically target humans with no natural response, and if they are (which they appear to be based on the publicly available information cited in that article) are those creating them are doing so in a safe manner to prevent a possible pandemic causing escape scenario. Based on my own personal knowledge of safety standards in other industries in China, I lack confidence that the second part of my query can be guaranteed, and the fact that they have sealed those records would make me extremely, extremely suspicious that there is something in those records very relevant to our current pandemic. The fact that the former president came out and said that the virus came from a Chinese lab, and that a large number of people vehemently disagree with anything and everything he says, shouldn't impact the scientific process of actually determining the root source of the pandemic. All of the preparedness in the world won't help us the next time if a virus that specifically targets humans and is resistant to all known treatments happens to escape from a lab. Stockpile masks and ventilators all we want, but get to the truth here, regardless of where that leads.

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And now that those files have been sealed and the WHO will likely not push China too much to try to obtain them, we may never know the exact full story, unfortunately, which of course only adds to the wild speculation that can happen when important details are not filled in. It is a vicious cycle that none of us wants to repeat.

ETA: when new details do get added to the story as they have been recently, it only makes China look that much worse. I still don't think they will release much, however.

If this virus was man-made (with UNC and China's Wuhan lab involved) for the specific purpose of creating a virus to infect humans, several questions arise.

For starters, WHY are they trying to create viruses that can infect and harm humans? Is this a biological warfare program? Is there nefarious intent by China (or others working with them) to use this as a weapon against humanity?

Also, if this is true that it is man-made, why has our government and Establishmebt media largely covered these facts up, and suppressed the truth from being known?

PackPA2015 said:

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wilmwolf80 said:

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"The article mentions some of the well know viral escapes from labs around the world, some of which I have read studies about in the past. Accidents happen, even when the best of safeguards are in place. When accidents do happen, it is important and necessary for there to be total transparency as to what happened and in this case, it definitely appears transparency has been lacking."


Exactly. I don't care about assigning "blame" for Covid. But I care very much to know if pandemic level viruses are being created that can specifically target humans with no natural response, and if they are (which they appear to be based on the publicly available information cited in that article) are those creating them are doing so in a safe manner to prevent a possible pandemic causing escape scenario. Based on my own personal knowledge of safety standards in other industries in China, I lack confidence that the second part of my query can be guaranteed, and the fact that they have sealed those records would make me extremely, extremely suspicious that there is something in those records very relevant to our current pandemic. The fact that the former president came out and said that the virus came from a Chinese lab, and that a large number of people vehemently disagree with anything and everything he says, shouldn't impact the scientific process of actually determining the root source of the pandemic. All of the preparedness in the world won't help us the next time if a virus that specifically targets humans and is resistant to all known treatments happens to escape from a lab. Stockpile masks and ventilators all we want, but get to the truth here, regardless of where that leads.

---

And now that those files have been sealed and the WHO will likely not push China too much to try to obtain them, we may never know the exact full story, unfortunately, which of course only adds to the wild speculation that can happen when important details are not filled in. It is a vicious cycle that none of us wants to repeat.

ETA: when new details do get added to the story as they have been recently, it only makes China look that much worse. I still don't think they will release much, however.

---

I agree. The Chinese government will not be releasing any additional information. The fact they still have not been able to identify the intermediary carrier is telling, considering how quickly they have been able to do so with past outbreaks of SARS (civets) and MERS (camels). Add to this the sealing of lab notes (something that should have been provided to the WHO investigators) definitely shows how uncooperative they are and will be in the future.

The virologist investigating the virus have come up with some interesting clues, but without the lab notes, it is all educated guesses and speculation on their part, as to the viruses origin. I found the discussion of the "furin cleavage" site to be quite compelling with regards to the attempts to determine the origin of the virus. The entire article is filled with very interesting science and makes me appreciate more the complexity of viruses.

Quote 1 (Civ):
"but it's not random that the Wuhan lab that studies coronaviruses is located in Wuhan. China has a dense population of bats that carry coronaviruses, I've seen it said over 200 different types of corona".

Quote 2 (PackPA):
"The original source, bats, are no where near Wuhan, so not likely a direct transmission".

These two statements are in conflict with each other... so which is it?

GuerrillaPack said:

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If this virus was man-made (with UNC and China's Wuhan lab involved) for the specific purpose of creating a virus to infect humans, several questions arise.

For starters, WHY are they trying to create viruses that can infect and harm humans? Is this a biological warfare program? Is there nefarious intent by China (or others working with them) to use this as a weapon against humanity?

Also, if this is true that it is man-made, why has our government and Establishmebt media largely covered these facts up, and suppressed the truth from being known?

---

This is discussed in the article. It is less about creating bio weapons and more about using "gain of function" to determine how viruses become more infectious. This type of research is being done around the world and based on what I have read in some other sources, Dr. Fauci and others are big proponents of this type of research and have objected in the past to limits on this type of research.

I read about the "gain of function" theory a few months ago and the article I linked is the first to link actual research being done by a researcher at the Wuhan lab to these types of experiments.

TheStorm said:

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Quote 1 (Civ):
"but it's not random that the Wuhan lab that studies coronaviruses is located in Wuhan. China has a dense population of bats that carry coronaviruses, I've seen it said over 200 different types of corona".

Quote 2 (PackPA):
"The original source, bats, are no where near Wuhan, so not likely a direct transmission".

These two statements are in conflict with each other... so which is it?

---

The bats in question do not live within range of Wuhan. They are located in a section of China far from Wuhan and it is not in their normal migratory range. Additionally, when the outbreak is believed to have occurred, the bats in question would have been in hibernation. This was all mentioned in the article.

Daviewolf83 said:

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GuerrillaPack said:

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If this virus was man-made (with UNC and China's Wuhan lab involved) for the specific purpose of creating a virus to infect humans, several questions arise.

For starters, WHY are they trying to create viruses that can infect and harm humans? Is this a biological warfare program? Is there nefarious intent by China (or others working with them) to use this as a weapon against humanity?

Also, if this is true that it is man-made, why has our government and Establishmebt media largely covered these facts up, and suppressed the truth from being known?

---

This is discussed in the article. It is less about creating bio weapons and more about using "gain of function" to determine how viruses become more infectious. This type of research is being done around the world and based on what I have read in some other sources, Dr. Fauci and others are big proponents of this type of research and have objected in the past to limits on this type of research.

---

Sure, I understand that UNC and everyone else involved is going to claim that they are creating these viruses for some "beneficial" purpose. But I'm talking about the real reason why they are doing it. The stated reasons governments claim for doing almost everything are almost always false.

The US Gov and Establishment media secrecy and deception on this issue is prime evidence that the stated reason is false.

For example, I believe that Fauci is connected to this Wuhan lab. The US Gov knows all about what is going on in these labs and supports it. If what is going on at this lab is all being done for a "good" reason, then why the secrecy? Why is the Establishment media and US government sweeping this all under the rug, and not informing the public about this lab being the origin of "covid"?

Why are they hiding this? Why are they misleading and lying to the public? This is a huge red flag that it is all NOT what it is claimed to be.

Civilized said:

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Yep.

A leak would be unfathomably embarrassing and damaging for China so they have all the incentive in the world to cover it up. The WHO is not similarly aligned but their investigation is only as good as the Chinese are transparent, which is to say not very much.

Most coronavirus research is done at Level-2 and Level-3 facilities. There has been past concern (pre-COVID) regarding China's virus lab safety. For an alleged Level-4 lab to have allowed the escape of a strain that caused millions of deaths and hundreds of millions of infections in a global pandemic would be catastrophic for Chinese PR.

---

So the Establishment Lamestream media covers for communist China too? Wow, more evidence that the Establishment media are a rats nest of communists. Shocker.

Why does the Establishment media lie to the public and cover up the truth?

The only way anything will come out from China is if someone risks death to leak it, which I don't think will be likely, or if it is something that the US discovers covertly, in which case it also probably won't come out due to the possible ramifications.

Daviewolf83 said:

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TheStorm said:

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Quote 1 (Civ):
"but it's not random that the Wuhan lab that studies coronaviruses is located in Wuhan. China has a dense population of bats that carry coronaviruses, I've seen it said over 200 different types of corona".

Quote 2 (PackPA):
"The original source, bats, are no where near Wuhan, so not likely a direct transmission".

These two statements are in conflict with each other... so which is it?

---

The bats in question do not live within range of Wuhan. They are located in a section of China far from Wuhan and it is not in their normal migratory range. Additionally, when the outbreak is believed to have occurred, the bats in question would have been in hibernation. This was all mentioned in the article.

---

I haven't read the article yet, but thanks... didn't need to either... Civ just couldn't get in here quick enough to argue against that "cockamamie conspiracy theory" because he knows exactly how early in the game that a certain somebody had that same feedback and shared it with our country publicly... and the left and the media railed against it. It was true at the time - and it's still true now.

Just like that other cockamamie conspiracy theory.

Eventually the truth will come out on both, but it won't be anytime soon... kind of surprised that this article was allowed to see the light of day even.

PackPA2015 said:

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TheStorm said:

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Quote 1 (Civ):
"but it's not random that the Wuhan lab that studies coronaviruses is located in Wuhan. China has a dense population of bats that carry coronaviruses, I've seen it said over 200 different types of corona".

Quote 2 (PackPA):
"The original source, bats, are no where near Wuhan, so not likely a direct transmission".

These two statements are in conflict with each other... so which is it?

---

As Davie said, both are true. China, itself, has many bats species which are known to have coronaviruses in their midst. However, these species do not live anywhere near the city of Wuhan and do not travel there during migration. If this was strictly from bats (big if at this point), then it would have had to infect an intermediary species that was shipped or traded to the fresh meat market. That species has not been discovered which lends itself to questioning if this theory has truth to it or not.

Hence, why the lab escape theory looks more and more plausible by the day. Add to that China's secrecy with sealing documents and you add gasoline to an already burning flame.

---

No, they are not both true under the context of which they were being said...

"but it's not random that the Wuhan lab that studies coronaviruses is located in Wuhan. China has a dense population of bats that carry coronaviruses, I've seen it said over 200 different types of corona".

It's not just China to blame and covering up the truth. Fauci, the US Govt, and China are all complicit in this Wuhan lab. This goes all the way up to the highest levels of the US Govt. The US Govt, working with universities like UNC, was supporting and funding what was/is going on in the Wuhan lab.

Fauci and the US Govt know what's going on here. Why have they also covered up the truth?

wilmwolf80 said:

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The only way anything will come out from China is if someone risks death to leak it, which I don't think will be likely, or if it is something that the US discovers covertly, in which case it also probably won't come out due to the possible ramifications.

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Fair points all around Wilm.

I was flipping channels the other day and a preacher was talking about bats eating some type of fruit and the fruit fell into a hog pen and the hogs ate the fruit..........who knows?

Where Are We in Hunting for the Coronavirus's Origin?

Where Bats Are Still on the Menu, if No Longer the Best Seller

GuerrillaPack said:

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Daviewolf83 said:

---

GuerrillaPack said:

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If this virus was man-made (with UNC and China's Wuhan lab involved) for the specific purpose of creating a virus to infect humans, several questions arise.

For starters, WHY are they trying to create viruses that can infect and harm humans? Is this a biological warfare program? Is there nefarious intent by China (or others working with them) to use this as a weapon against humanity?

Also, if this is true that it is man-made, why has our government and Establishmebt media largely covered these facts up, and suppressed the truth from being known?

---

This is discussed in the article. It is less about creating bio weapons and more about using "gain of function" to determine how viruses become more infectious. This type of research is being done around the world and based on what I have read in some other sources, Dr. Fauci and others are big proponents of this type of research and have objected in the past to limits on this type of research.

---

Sure, I understand that UNC and everyone else involved is going to claim that they are creating these viruses for some "beneficial" purpose. But I'm talking about the real reason why they are doing it. The stated reasons governments claim for doing almost everything are almost always false.

The US Gov and Establishment media secrecy and deception on this issue is prime evidence that the stated reason is false.

For example, I believe that Fauci is connected to this Wuhan lab. The US Gov knows all about what is going on in these labs and supports it. If what is going on at this lab is all being done for a "good" reason, then why the secrecy? Why is the Establishment media and US government sweeping this all under the rug, and not informing the public about this lab being the origin of "covid"?

Why are they hiding this? Why are they misleading and lying to the public? This is a huge red flag that it is all NOT what it is claimed to be.

---

Many are trying to cover it up for the same reason a lot of things are covered up - MONEY!! I have a rule I follow that says if something does not make sense - "follow the money." Nine times out of ten, this rule actually helps me to explain a lot of things that make no logical sense.

For example, consider this quote from the article:

"It later turned out that the Lancet letter had been organized and drafted by Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance of New York. Dr. Daszak's organization funded coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. If the SARS2 virus had indeed escaped from research he funded, Dr. Daszak would be potentially culpable. This acute conflict of interest was not declared to the Lancet's readers. To the contrary, the letter concluded, 'We declare no competing interests.'"

Why did Dr. Daszak so quickly issue a statement in the Lancet (letter issued February of 2020), when the origin was still an open question? The answer is money and reputation (which affects the money part).

TheStorm said:

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PackPA2015 said:

---

TheStorm said:

---

Quote 1 (Civ):
"but it's not random that the Wuhan lab that studies coronaviruses is located in Wuhan. China has a dense population of bats that carry coronaviruses, I've seen it said over 200 different types of corona".

Quote 2 (PackPA):
"The original source, bats, are no where near Wuhan, so not likely a direct transmission".

These two statements are in conflict with each other... so which is it?

---

As Davie said, both are true. China, itself, has many bats species which are known to have coronaviruses in their midst. However, these species do not live anywhere near the city of Wuhan and do not travel there during migration. If this was strictly from bats (big if at this point), then it would have had to infect an intermediary species that was shipped or traded to the fresh meat market. That species has not been discovered which lends itself to questioning if this theory has truth to it or not.

Hence, why the lab escape theory looks more and more plausible by the day. Add to that China's secrecy with sealing documents and you add gasoline to an already burning flame.

---

No, they are not both true under the context of which they were being said...

"but it's not random that the Wuhan lab that studies coronaviruses is located in Wuhan. China has a dense population of bats that carry coronaviruses, I've seen it said over 200 different types of corona".

---

Ah, I see your point now. I don't know of any reason why this lab is in Wuhan specifically. Someone else in the know can answer that if they have any information.

It is no coincidence that they study coronaviruses in China due to a heavy presence of those viruses in the bat population, but you are right, I am not sure why in Wuhan specifically. I missed your point the first go round. Apologies.

The only preacher I trust is prophet Fauci, of the church of SCIENCE.

GuerrillaPack said:

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Civilized said:

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Yep.

A leak would be unfathomably embarrassing and damaging for China so they have all the incentive in the world to cover it up. The WHO is not similarly aligned but their investigation is only as good as the Chinese are transparent, which is to say not very much.

Most coronavirus research is done at Level-2 and Level-3 facilities. There has been past concern (pre-COVID) regarding China's virus lab safety. For an alleged Level-4 lab to have allowed the escape of a strain that caused millions of deaths and hundreds of millions of infections in a global pandemic would be catastrophic for Chinese PR.

---

So the Establishment Lamestream media covers for communist China too? Wow, more evidence that the Establishment media are a rats nest of communists. Shocker.

Why does the Establishment media lie to the public and cover up the truth?

---

All of this is concerning but not shocking to those of us who've watched China's overall strategies and purposes in the past decade. Their money and influence pervades and corrupts western universities and media.

Oldsouljer said:

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GuerrillaPack said:

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Civilized said:

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Yep.

A leak would be unfathomably embarrassing and damaging for China so they have all the incentive in the world to cover it up. The WHO is not similarly aligned but their investigation is only as good as the Chinese are transparent, which is to say not very much.

Most coronavirus research is done at Level-2 and Level-3 facilities. There has been past concern (pre-COVID) regarding China's virus lab safety. For an alleged Level-4 lab to have allowed the escape of a strain that caused millions of deaths and hundreds of millions of infections in a global pandemic would be catastrophic for Chinese PR.

---

So the Establishment Lamestream media covers for communist China too? Wow, more evidence that the Establishment media are a rats nest of communists. Shocker.

Why does the Establishment media lie to the public and cover up the truth?

---

All of this is concerning but not shocking to those of us who've watched China's overall strategies and purposes in the past decade. Their money and influence pervades and corrupts western universities and media.

---

.

Yes, China does pump a lot of money in to buy influence. There is a big Chinese donor to Roy Cooper who has connections to the Chinese government, and even advised Cooper on how to respond to "covid". What's even more concerning is not what the Chinese government is doing, but all the people in spheres of power in the United States (in Establishment media, academia, government) who are ideologically aligned with them - ie, Marxism/communism.

China is not the source of "evil" in the world. They are just a cog in the wheel. This plot for totalitarianism (Marxism) was hatched a century before it took over China. Now it's taking over the United States and the West - with small aid from China, but mainly due to Marxist ideologues in Western spheres of power - media, academia, Big Tech, government, etc.

Vaccines 5 years from now.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMeq4DYhY/

ncsualum05 said:

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You're kidding yourself if you don't think China is using research at these labs for potential future weaponry. China is always always always in everything they do trying to dominate everyone and crush the competition. Economically and militarily.

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I know China has a different standard of ethics, but is this statement any different than the US or really most developed countries?

johntom said:

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ncsualum05 said:

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You're kidding yourself if you don't think China is using research at these labs for potential future weaponry. China is always always always in everything they do trying to dominate everyone and crush the competition. Economically and militarily.

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I know China has a different standard of ethics, but is this statement any different than the US or really most developed countries?

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Agree.

What do you think the rest of the world sees when they see our military? That we're a bunch of pacifists?

johntom said:

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ncsualum05 said:

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You're kidding yourself if you don't think China is using research at these labs for potential future weaponry. China is always always always in everything they do trying to dominate everyone and crush the competition. Economically and militarily.

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I know China has a different standard of ethics, but is this statement any different than the US or really most developed countries?

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Yes I believe it is different. The US seems to be more concerned with helping other nations than itself. China's always looking out for China. The only time the US looked out for itself was under Trump. Now we're back to ****ing ourselves for everyone else's benefit.

Off topic from the China lab accident.

Peter Walker, one of the CTP guys, posted this graphic yesterday.

Super interesting to see the age distribution nationally in that last mini spring bump and how less pronounced it was in the older population.

Wayland said:

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Off topic from the China lab accident.

Peter Walker, one of the CTP guys, posted this graphic yesterday.

Super interesting to see the age distribution nationally in that last mini spring bump and how less pronounced it was in the older population.

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Thanks to vaccines. There was a clear seasonal component to the spike (yes, it was a spike) we had starting in late October of 2020 and ending around March and another seasonal bump in April. I do expect another seasonal bump to happen in mid to late June and extend to mid August. Of course, the media will likely lose their minds and manufacture more panic stories, but it should be expected by anyone who has been following the data for over a year.

The good thing your graphic displays (along with the data I have posted in the past) is the effect of vaccines, above and beyond the seasonal aspect. There is a very clear shift in the population that makes up infections to lower aged, less vaccinated populations. Additionally, the extreme age stratification we saw with regards to cases, hospitalizations, and deaths has been effectively erased, due to the effectiveness of the vaccines. Across NC and the nation, there was an emphasis on vaccinating the older, higher risk populations and it has been a success.

While we need to continue a focus on vaccinating more of the older population, the attention now turns to the 24 to 50 year old age groups that are driving the cases and hospitalizations. Continuing to increase vaccination rates will also help to make the next seasonal rise in cases and hospitalizations less of an issue. I do expect in the next seasonal rise, hospitalizations will not push our healthcare systems like they did during the increase we say between October and early March.

TheStorm said:

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Civilized said:

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Stop making stuff up.

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LOL. You've chastised anyone and everyone on this board that ever even inferred that it orginated in a Wuhan lab for nearly a year or more now... when finally presented with pretty clear evidence that it did (and the board in consensus on that), only now do you reluctantly offer up your "fair chance" comment.

No need to pretend. We all know who you are.

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Storm, you're still lying. The hole is getting deeper and you're embarrassing yourself.

A month ago on April 6 I posted

I posted an article on here In the last couple of weeks that I'll try to find and re-post. Really balanced take on the origins of COVID-19. Some credence to the prospect of it coming out of a lab and it's clear that the origins are still unclear.


Occam's razor also applies here though. There didn't need to be some sort of lab mistake and coverup or a government conspiracy for it to jump from bats to humans. The simplest and most likely possibility is the wet market theory or transmission directly from bat to a human.

Six weeks ago on March 28 I posted an article about the possibility of lab origination.

"Also read a great, balanced piece last night on the possibility that COVID originated in the Wuhan lab. The research on this disease in coming years will be fascinating.

https://undark.org/2021/03/17/lab-leak-science-lost-in-politics/"

11 weeks ago on February 19 I said

"So it was a novel coronavirus that they found in animals and they were studying that but it hadn't made the jump to humans yet until it made a jump to a researcher?


Seems possible, no idea how plausible."

and (same day)

"Again I'm not arguing it didn't escape from a lab, just that it wouldn't have needed to. Coronaviruses in the wild are very common in China, which is why their Wuhan lab studies them.


It's not some big smoking gun that there's a virology lab in Wuhan when the whole reason that lab focuses on coronaviruses is that so many have been found in China's wildlife. It may have escaped from the lab. Or, it was one of the hundreds of coronaviruses that their bat populations carry in the wild."

and (same day)

"I don't think any of us take [China's] word for it for sure."

So to recap, six weeks ago I provided a link regarding the possibility it originated in the Wuhan lab. Over a month before that I clearly said I wasn't arguing that it didn't escape from the lab, and that it may have. And I reinforced that we can't accept China's version of events.

So go ahead man, point out where I chastised "anyone and everyone" that thought it came from a lab.

How could I have only yesterday reluctantly admitted it may have come from a lab when six weeks ago I posted an article explaining that possibility and no less than four times over the last three months said clearly that it may have come from a lab?

Daviewolf83 said:

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FlossyDFlynt said:

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Anecdotal evidence - there were about a third of the number of cars this afternoon when I got my second shot at PNC than the first one three weeks ago. I think weve reached the point where there is going to be more supply than demand for the vaccine, which means its time to open up in my view.

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They announced they will be closing the site PNC later this month, due to the decrease in demand. I agree it is almost time to open up. I have said 30 days after anyone who wants a vaccine can get a vaccine has passed, it will be time to open up. We are now at the point where anyone who wants a vaccine can get one. Allowing for thirty days for those just now getting their first dose to get their second, we should open up and remove all mandates and restrictions. This would be the first to mid-June at the latest.

I do recognize there are still some areas of the state that have been more difficult to reach (due to transportation and other causes) and the state and local agencies should be focused on reaching these populations. For example, there are definitely people who only want to be vaccinated by their doctor and this is why I believe we need to be sending the excess doses to these locations. Also, using mobile clinics would be helpful in reaching those communities with lower access to healthcare.

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I think Wake is probably only doing 1000 or new first doses a day this week.

EDIT (Today Wake did 1720 1st doses)