James Henderson said:

---

jmepack said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

DrummerboyWolf said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

DrummerboyWolf said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Again, I understand the rules are what they are. The issue I have is when 4 vaccinated players tested positive. That should've set off alarms for the ncaa and the health department. Either 1) there was an issue with the testing process, or 2) there is now an unforeseen problem with a variant that should've had the ncaa testing everyone on every team. They could have people participating in the finals now that are positive.

If it had turned out we were the only ones, I can live with that as crap luck. If there were other teams with vaccinated positives, that would've changed the entire narrative for everyone involved, including the ncaa. But, we'll never get that answer.

---

I don't think they tested other vaccinated players (although they may have for Vandy) because the other teams gave them no reason to do so if that makes sense.

They are going to assume (right or wrong) the outbreak was limited to NC State.

---

I doubt they really wanted to test those other teams guys either. If 4/14 can test positive....who knows who else might get popped...so, to your point, since this was never really about safety, if the team didn't give them a reason, stay away from opening up pandora's box.

---

Part of why I think they were trying to encourage teams to bring vaxxed players in first place.

---

Katherine Johnston said in a story yesterday that Reid had gotten Covid in February and still had the antibodies so did not get the vaccine. He never tested positive. I am sure we have others just like that. Forcing people to vaccinate is not right James. The NCAA screwed the pooch on this one by testing the vaccinated players who were of no danger to anybody.

---

Who is forcing someone to get vaccinated?

The NCAA said clearly in their rules with an outbreak they can now test everyone.

That wasn't new to State. You don't see boo/Woodson complaining about that; they knew it ahead of time.

---

You don't see them complaining because they are week and status quo guys. Don't want to rock the apple cart.

If the NCAA was encouraging players to be vaxxed, then they are in a way forcing your hand. If you think for one minute we had everybody vaxxed but still had one player with symptoms, they wouldn't have still thrown us out then I do have some ocean front property in Kansas I would like to sell you. The NCAA panicked and then try to cover up in the middle of the night. We had enough players to play that were not positive.

---

Yep, the NCAA was going to do everything they can to prevent NC State from winning a CWS title. That was apparently the goal.

I just don't think that way, but I guess I'm in the minority. Unfortunately, over the years I"ve seen State do enough themselves to prevent it from happening, although I thought this time would be different.

There was no way they were going to let State take the field with 8 players and rising having tested positive over a 3-day period. It just wasn't happening. If you think that's b/c it was NC State and not some other team, I just have to disagree.

---

"8 players and rising...." Have we had other players test positive since returning? Last I read we had not had any more positives. Basically the NCAA said a negative test was worth nothing and "contract tracing" effectively eliminated us. However, have we had any more positives?

---

No clue who all is still being tested given State's eliminated and players can go home.

Here is how I read the timeline.
Player A tests positive during the team testing on Tuesday. His roomate, Player B, tests negative at that testing but is quarantined.
Wednesday, Player B is tested and tests negative.
Thursday, Player B is tested and tests negative along with the rest of the team. Remember, at this point, the rest of th team/staff is still around each other.
Friday AM, Player B finally tests positive. That's 3 days after being away from Player A and while having posted 3 negative tests. Also, two other players/staff show up with symptoms and test positive.

Now you're sitting here Friday around 11/12 and NC State has 4 positives, including two new positives from players/staff who weren't quarantined. Who were they around the last 2-3 days? Don't think you think this is where time/contact tracing comes into effect?

Also, the Player B scenario is exactly why you don't just "play the players with a negative test". It took him 4 days to test positive. Four. Health officials know that. They know the other State players need to continue being tested.

This is why for me, it's all pretty cut and dry. We ended up with 8 positives including six on Friday along. No, I don't think anyone is expecting NC State to play on Saturday, and the NCAA isn't going to pause the CWS so we can get our **** together.

---

I get Player B tested positive after 4 days. But we also had players around Player A, and B, who tested negative all week and still tested negative and continue to test negative. You can't just say due to one player finally testing positive the others automatically will. In reality you could argue the majority who tested negative are still testing negative, no?

James Henderson said:

---

jmepack said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

jmepack said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

DrummerboyWolf said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

DrummerboyWolf said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Again, I understand the rules are what they are. The issue I have is when 4 vaccinated players tested positive. That should've set off alarms for the ncaa and the health department. Either 1) there was an issue with the testing process, or 2) there is now an unforeseen problem with a variant that should've had the ncaa testing everyone on every team. They could have people participating in the finals now that are positive.

If it had turned out we were the only ones, I can live with that as crap luck. If there were other teams with vaccinated positives, that would've changed the entire narrative for everyone involved, including the ncaa. But, we'll never get that answer.

---

I don't think they tested other vaccinated players (although they may have for Vandy) because the other teams gave them no reason to do so if that makes sense.

They are going to assume (right or wrong) the outbreak was limited to NC State.

---

I doubt they really wanted to test those other teams guys either. If 4/14 can test positive....who knows who else might get popped...so, to your point, since this was never really about safety, if the team didn't give them a reason, stay away from opening up pandora's box.

---

Part of why I think they were trying to encourage teams to bring vaxxed players in first place.

---

Katherine Johnston said in a story yesterday that Reid had gotten Covid in February and still had the antibodies so did not get the vaccine. He never tested positive. I am sure we have others just like that. Forcing people to vaccinate is not right James. The NCAA screwed the pooch on this one by testing the vaccinated players who were of no danger to anybody.

---

Who is forcing someone to get vaccinated?

The NCAA said clearly in their rules with an outbreak they can now test everyone.

That wasn't new to State. You don't see boo/Woodson complaining about that; they knew it ahead of time.

---

You don't see them complaining because they are week and status quo guys. Don't want to rock the apple cart.

If the NCAA was encouraging players to be vaxxed, then they are in a way forcing your hand. If you think for one minute we had everybody vaxxed but still had one player with symptoms, they wouldn't have still thrown us out then I do have some ocean front property in Kansas I would like to sell you. The NCAA panicked and then try to cover up in the middle of the night. We had enough players to play that were not positive.

---

Yep, the NCAA was going to do everything they can to prevent NC State from winning a CWS title. That was apparently the goal.

I just don't think that way, but I guess I'm in the minority. Unfortunately, over the years I"ve seen State do enough themselves to prevent it from happening, although I thought this time would be different.

There was no way they were going to let State take the field with 8 players and rising having tested positive over a 3-day period. It just wasn't happening. If you think that's b/c it was NC State and not some other team, I just have to disagree.

---

"8 players and rising...." Have we had other players test positive since returning? Last I read we had not had any more positives. Basically the NCAA said a negative test was worth nothing and "contract tracing" effectively eliminated us. However, have we had any more positives?

---

No clue who all is still being tested given State's eliminated and players can go home.

Here is how I read the timeline.
Player A tests positive during the team testing on Tuesday. His roomate, Player B, tests negative at that testing but is quarantined.
Wednesday, Player B is tested and tests negative.
Thursday, Player B is tested and tests negative along with the rest of the team. Remember, at this point, the rest of th team/staff is still around each other.
Friday AM, Player B finally tests positive. That's 3 days after being away from Player A and while having posted 3 negative tests. Also, two other players/staff show up with symptoms and test positive.

Now you're sitting here Friday around 11/12 and NC State has 4 positives, including two new positives from players/staff who weren't quarantined. Who were they around the last 2-3 days? Don't think you think this is where time/contact tracing comes into effect?

Also, the Player B scenario is exactly why you don't just "play the players with a negative test". It took him 4 days to test positive. Four. Health officials know that. They know the other State players need to continue being tested.

This is why for me, it's all pretty cut and dry. We ended up with 8 positives including six on Friday along. No, I don't think anyone is expecting NC State to play on Saturday, and the NCAA isn't going to pause the CWS so we can get our **** together.

---

I get Player B tested positive after 4 days. But we also had players around Player A, and B, who tested negative all week and still tested negative and continue to test negative. You can't just say due to one player finally testing positive the others automatically will. In reality you could argue the majority who tested negative are still testing negative, no?

---

BUt... you just had two more test positive on Friday. Who went to dinner with them Thursday night? Who were their roomates? It's not about guys automatically testing positive. It's you just don't know.

This is the one thing about COVID that seems to be the hardest for folks to grasp. I struggled with it before getting COVID as well. Once you've knowingly been around a COVID positive, an initial negative test or not means nothing.

---

And that is the part to me that is the grey area. A negative test should mean something. Hell, we are saying if you test negative you're not automatically cleared to play but if you test positive you're definitely out. It should work both ways. That's where the subjectivity comes into play.

Mind you, we still haven't had a positive since returning home. Which means everyone but the 8 positives would have been fine to play.

The NCAA implemented a "well, what if..." scenario when in reality, we could "well, what if.." anything in this life.

James Henderson said:

---

wilmwolf80 said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

wilmwolf80 said:

---

One thing I know is that James is not going to change what he thinks. Arguing with him is like arguing with a fence post, he's not going to move. Personally, I think he's very wrong with his interpretation of events and the blame he wants to put on people under the circumstance, but I'm not going to keep arguing with him about it. In this case, as happens frequently when the NCAA is involved, it's not about the rules, it's about how the rules were interpreted and applied, that is bringing the ire of NC State fans. That ire is justified in this case, and similarly, you aren't going to change my mind about that.

---

What part am I wrong about? I actually believe the timeline/events as documented because they make sense (and I've heard similar behind the scenes.).

I don't really see where the NCAA was wrong in how they applied the rules.

They tested unvaxed players. They said they would.
They contact traced players. They've done that all year.
They started testing vaxed players after an outbreak. Again, they said they would.

I try not to go around blaming someone else when I do something wrong, and in this case, I don't believe NC State did everything they could do to try and prevent this outbreak from happening. Trust me, if I'd been hearing NC State was doing things they should have to limit a potential outbreak, I wouldn't be as vocal about it.

Of course, I also wouldn't be mad at the NCAA or Vandy, to me it would just be unfortunate. Really it kind of is anyways, but the optics of how State handled the last 10 days is troubling.

---

Are you simply not capable of just accepting that we disagree? I know all the same information you know. I disagree with you. Please move on.

---

Which is why I asked what interpretation of the events are you claiming I'm wrong about.

---

Fence post indeed!!
Ad infinitum, ad nauseam, ad hendersonium

PackFansXL said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

wilmwolf80 said:

---

James Henderson said:

---

wilmwolf80 said:

---

One thing I know is that James is not going to change what he thinks. Arguing with him is like arguing with a fence post, he's not going to move. Personally, I think he's very wrong with his interpretation of events and the blame he wants to put on people under the circumstance, but I'm not going to keep arguing with him about it. In this case, as happens frequently when the NCAA is involved, it's not about the rules, it's about how the rules were interpreted and applied, that is bringing the ire of NC State fans. That ire is justified in this case, and similarly, you aren't going to change my mind about that.

---

What part am I wrong about? I actually believe the timeline/events as documented because they make sense (and I've heard similar behind the scenes.).

I don't really see where the NCAA was wrong in how they applied the rules.

They tested unvaxed players. They said they would.
They contact traced players. They've done that all year.
They started testing vaxed players after an outbreak. Again, they said they would.

I try not to go around blaming someone else when I do something wrong, and in this case, I don't believe NC State did everything they could do to try and prevent this outbreak from happening. Trust me, if I'd been hearing NC State was doing things they should have to limit a potential outbreak, I wouldn't be as vocal about it.

Of course, I also wouldn't be mad at the NCAA or Vandy, to me it would just be unfortunate. Really it kind of is anyways, but the optics of how State handled the last 10 days is troubling.

---

Are you simply not capable of just accepting that we disagree? I know all the same information you know. I disagree with you. Please move on.

---

Which is why I asked what interpretation of the events are you claiming I'm wrong about.

---

Fence post indeed!!
Ad infinitum, ad nauseam, ad hendersonium

---

LOL, lol.

Is Clay Travis a State grad?

I texted my friends on Saturday night "Today we are collectively mad. In a couple of days, we'll be infighting in a similar manner". Guess I'm clairvoyant ;-)

aqasaw234 said:

---

Packsd14me said:

---

aqasaw234 said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

aqasaw234 said:

---

To be clear, I don't think it motivated any decision either. I don't think we got intentionally screwed.

If not vandy, then who on our side of the bracket was the biggest tv draw. Stanford? And I mean who was biggest tv draw going into Omaha? Not after we captured America's hearts.

---

Well, I'll be honest, I don't know what motivates people to watch the CWS?
If it's baseball fans in general, then teams didn't really matter
If it's fans of a school....then Vandy wasn't it.
If it's storylines -- I think that one is obvious as the supers and CWS played out, we were the top story.
If it's starpower -- Vandy had this.

Again, not sure any of this matters....if you actually wanted to get into the craziness of conspiracies....ESPN would have likely had a lot more interest in just ensuring there would actually be a final series, regardless of the 2 teams that made it. I guess someone could argue that when they saw our case count, they suggested to NCAA to avoid the risk of those cases increasing, and knocking more players out, to where we had no team left....just to remove us.

No, I'm not saying I think that contributed.....but its a lot more supportable than ESPN saying, gosh Vandy sure would be a better draw (if that were in the works, they'd have made sure Texas beat MSU instead).

---

Agreed. The emphasis was probably on making sure there was a finals. Sacrifice them to ensure we have those games. I firmly believe they would've booted Vandy, Texas, Miss State, NY Yankees every bit as fast as they did us.

---

I doubt that....a week's delay ...changing the format.....something innovative would have accomplished that goal....ensure the participation of all 4 teams without sacrificeing anyone. Vandy-State play 2 of 3, Miss St - Texas play 2 of 3....the winners play 2 of 3 championship....we ensure safety of fans,players and get a true champion...all with a little thinking, discussion and conversation with all 4 teams.....and tv...making more money....

again, bad leadership. You don't think ESPN would have agreed to this, moving the tv schedule?

---

I don't know what ESPN has scheduled over the next couple of weeks. It is pretty slow in early July.

When's the draft? If delaying CWS pushes up against that the MLB will go scorched earth on everybody. Teams are gonna want their guys in the organization asap and not throwing 120+ pitches out in omaha.

hahaha NCAA and innovative will never be in the same sentence.

---

The tv schedule and not the draft is the issue. Lots of scouts in Omaha now with the draft later (although their were tons there with the draft in June). They get to watch guys on the big stage. I don't think pitch count matters as much as arm health for these guys. Short rest is a problem, not 100 plus pitches. If a guy has good form, they see his stamina. You don't think Leiter was impressive with over 100 pitches in the 8th innings and three pitches in high stress situations at 96 mph? They saw that in person. It helped him. The guys won't pitch much this year after they are drafted anyway....there is only about one month left in the minor league season and none of the guys will start in the Big Leagues. 4 or 5 starts? They will get their feet wet in next years spring training. Rodon pitched in Winston and Charlotte before going to Chicago in his draft year season mainly to draw crowds, not to receiving training.

I agree about innovative and the NCAA...my example is something they could have done...and maybe should have done rather than having the best team ousted from a tournament. It can't be what they really wanted for TV, no matter what we think, having there best team sent home. 1.8 million viewers to 350k is quite a drop. They really need to be smarter .College baseball is growing in tv exposure but mostly on regional networks and Fox (Bally). NCAA could have another money maker for something after March Madness. April until the 4th of July finals is when Omaha should be. TV. They really messed this one up with a national darling in the finals.....leaving the NC State feelings out of it.They had a chance to create excitement...and blew it.

packgrad said:

---

waxhaw said:

---

How about writing an article about what the ncaa could have done differently..or how the ncaa contradicted itself when it said it followed local health guidelines? Or facts about players testing negative, and still not being allowed to play. Maybe interview some player families.

Maybe that would be interesting to nc state fans. the narrative that the ncaa followed the letter of the law and we somehow did something wrong only makes sense in a world where the ncaa follows their own rules.

---

Or how nearly 30% of vaccinated players supposedly tested positive for the virus. A stat that is seen nowhere else in the world.

---

Setting aside how this affected our team, which became "the story", I agree that this above result is the single biggest item out of this. The odds of that have to be astronomical.

My problem is the NCAA did not test all players on every CWS team.

Yeah, I don't expect much in the way of "hard hitting questions" from local TV coverage....but I would expect ESPN to ask those questions. I'd have expected them to get the NCAA guy in charge and ask those questions.
As well as, why the 2am release? Why no presser, just another release 36 hrs later? And -- if 4 vaccinated players were positive, how did you change your test plan for other remaining players, given your focus on safety?
For that matter...given 8 players positive, and knowing they interacted with crowds, and the State fans were not segregated from other fans....why didn't you change any fan requirements?

I profess to never watching SportsCenter, and haven't watched the pregames for the 3 games played since we were kicked out....but has it even been discussed?

Packchem91 said:

---

Yeah, I don't expect much in the way of "hard hitting questions" from local TV coverage....but I would expect ESPN to ask those questions. I'd have expected them to get the NCAA guy in charge and ask those questions.
As well as, why the 2am release? Why no presser, just another release 36 hrs later? And -- if 4 vaccinated players were positive, how did you change your test plan for other remaining players, given your focus on safety?
For that matter...given 8 players positive, and knowing they interacted with crowds, and the State fans were not segregated from other fans....why didn't you change any fan requirements?

I profess to never watching SportsCenter, and haven't watched the pregames for the 3 games played since we were kicked out....but has it even been discussed?

---

Why would ESPN ask the question that could possibly incriminate them as to whether they had a say in the decision?

Mr. Holman why did you make such a drastic decision at 2 am?

"Because you guys told us to make sure we had a team for the finals and MSU/Texas winner didn't have a walkover in the Championship."

DrummerboyWolf said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

Yeah, I don't expect much in the way of "hard hitting questions" from local TV coverage....but I would expect ESPN to ask those questions. I'd have expected them to get the NCAA guy in charge and ask those questions.
As well as, why the 2am release? Why no presser, just another release 36 hrs later? And -- if 4 vaccinated players were positive, how did you change your test plan for other remaining players, given your focus on safety?
For that matter...given 8 players positive, and knowing they interacted with crowds, and the State fans were not segregated from other fans....why didn't you change any fan requirements?

I profess to never watching SportsCenter, and haven't watched the pregames for the 3 games played since we were kicked out....but has it even been discussed?

---

Why would ESPN ask the question that could possibly incriminate them as to whether they had a say in the decision?

Mr. Holman why did you make such a drastic decision at 2 am?

"Because you guys told us to make sure we had a team for the finals and MSU/Texas winner didn't have a walkover in the Championship."

---

The fact they ask no questions allows suggestions like yours to fester. Same as the vacuum on Saturday allowed people to jump all over Tim Corbin as a potential cause. If you put darkness on everything, people will come up with their own conclusions.

But I don't disagree...they don't ask questions because they don't want to promote the answers, whether because it incriminates them or because it incriminates their close partnership with the NCAA CWS.

To me the simplest explanation is that the NCAA wanted no part of waiting to discover if the outbreak within State's team was going to go farther later. They were not going to have a forfeit for the finals.

Lagniappe said:

---

Is Clay Travis a State grad?

---

No, I think he actually went to Vandy.

SportManagementEngineer said:

---

Lagniappe said:

---

Is Clay Travis a State grad?

---

No, I think he actually went to Vandy.

---

Haha. Think his post was sarcasm. But yours may be too. I'm floating in possibly preemptive glee with 2 outs to go though so my radar is off.

Fire Boo and Woodson

jadawson said:

---

I just keep coming back to Hanlon's Razor with stuff like this. I have an easier time believing that ESPN and the NCAA are that incompetent at their jobs than there being some conspiracy or cover up as to what happened.

---

I had to google Hanlon's razor.

SportManagementEngineer said:

---

Lagniappe said:

---

Is Clay Travis a State grad?

---

No, I think he actually went to Vandy.

---

This is correct. Vanderbilt Law School.

It doesn't appear that we even get any directors cup points for our baseball finish. The final standings from today just says "COVID" even though top 4 was guaranteed.

Twist the knife why don't ya...

jadawson said:

---

It doesn't appear that we even get any directors cup points for our baseball finish. The final standings from today just says "COVID" even though top 4 was guaranteed.

Twist the knife why don't ya...

---

I wondered if that would be the case - what would a 4th place give us in the directors cup total? When I saw we were 23rd I felt sure something like this was a possibility. We were just like 11th in the last update I believe.

Wolfpack1724 said:

---

jadawson said:

---

It doesn't appear that we even get any directors cup points for our baseball finish. The final standings from today just says "COVID" even though top 4 was guaranteed.

Twist the knife why don't ya...

---

I wondered if that would be the case - what would a 4th place give us in the directors cup total? When I saw we were 23rd I felt sure something like this was a possibility. We were just like 11th in the last update I believe.

---

Texas got 83. I don't know if that would be higher lower if it was a tie for 3rd instead of solo 3rd. But we would be around 18th I believe

Wolfpack1724 said:

---

jadawson said:

---

It doesn't appear that we even get any directors cup points for our baseball finish. The final standings from today just says "COVID" even though top 4 was guaranteed.

Twist the knife why don't ya...

---

I wondered if that would be the case - what would a 4th place give us in the directors cup total? When I saw we were 23rd I felt sure something like this was a possibility. We were just like 11th in the last update I believe.

---

We should get no worse than a tie for 3rd. Anything else and the NCAA is really trying to shaft us again.