This is a REAL measure of how good the economy is doing -- availability of jobs, cost of living & inflation.

IMO the stock market is NOT a good measure of how the economy is doing for the average person. It measures CORPORATE profits. And corporations make big profits by essentially SCAMMING consumers...overcharging for goods and services, and underpaying them at their jobs. In many cases, therefore, if corporate profits are falling, it means that "consumers" are getting a better deal on their wages and the cost of goods and services.

https://instagr.am/p/DIB2anqMBEJ

Werewolf said:

---

---

And the hyper-partisan wackjobs funded by God knows who that you've chosen to replace the media with are definitely not lying? You imagine that PatriotTruthBlaster on twitter has a team of reporters on the ground? Or totally has a guy on the inside? Of course you do.

SmaptyWolf said:

---

And the hyper-partisan wackjobs funded by God knows who that you've chosen to replace the media with are definitely not lying? You imagine that PatriotTruthBlaster on twitter has a team of reporters on the ground? Or totally has a guy on the inside? Of course you do.

---

At least with the average Joe Blow you have roughly a 50/50 chance they are telling the truth.

With the far Left communist-run Establishment media, you only have about a 1% chance you are getting the full truth on any issue of importance.

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

I guess a lot of people here now like common core math because the math on these tariffs is so made up that it's impossible to believe that smart people think it works.

When you have to lie to get you point across, you aren't standing on solid policy ground. The last administration lied about the inflation reduction act. I guess we're all cool with that spending now.

---

Hokie, you're not this simple minded...

As every person in this Admin has said, we will need a new Tax and regulation system to allow for this to work. Please don't be so myopic...

---

Good thing we have competent professionals making a detailed implementation plan to transition us.

Oh no we're actually just gonna ask chatgpt what to Tariff and wave our hands that everything will work out while every economist says we're full of crap

---

You can not be so one dimensional to not see that the numbers are only there to start negotiations, right?

---

What negotiation? Trump wants to do this because he has had a dumb idea that trade between countries is a zero sum outcome. It's not!

They made up their reciprocal tariff formula that makes zero sense, and tried to pass it off as some sort of complicated calculation, which is a lie. Then on their tariff chart, they put up there an uninhabited island that has a great number of seals and penguins, who somehow are imposing tariffs on imported US goods. The tariff rate is the same for Brazil and Singapore, two countries that are on the opposite ends of the scale with respect to free trade. And a 17% tariff remains on Israel even though they reduced their tariffs to zero.

ITS MAGIC BEANS

All we are going to get is a huge consumption tax increase on goods and services, and a trade war, which has already started with China.

Now, we're celebrating "new" foreign investment in the US manufacturing sector (I say new, because most of it isn't, but hey, we lie about everything else) while penalizing actual US companies and we are high fiving each other!

We have violated every single trade agreement, even ones negotiated by the greatest negotiator in the history of the universe, and pissed off every single one of our allies.

We are penalizing Vietnam for having a trade deficit that WE created by encouraging other countries to divest manufacturing from China and move it to Vietnam.

And none of you can answer any of the why basic economic questions that I've asked over and over, hoping for an answer, but you can't. You want the entire country to be Michigan, where regulation and protectionism drove the auto industry INTO THE GROUND. So now that they've moved to better places in the US with out those regulations and protectionism, you want to penalize these companies for that. Incredible.

All this is going to do is slow the economy down and reduce competition which will drive up costs. We are turning the entire economy into one giant Jones Act.

I give Cary credit, at least he explains his reasoning, which I disagree with, but at least he has an ethos. The rest of you can't explain your way out of a paper bag so you just resort to insults and "its TDS". No its not TDS for me, I would love for this to work, but the US economy isn't the 1880s anymore.

So, I think I have a good case to be myopic.

---

He said last night, while taking questions, that they can be negotiated. We are by far the largest economy in the world. 50% larger than the closest economy. We have so much leverage. For other countries to grow they must trade with the largest economies, ours being the largest by miles!!!!

You keep saying there is going to be a tax meaning an increase in prices and that does not need to be the case. I keep telling you there are three pieces to a profit equation. You are focused on the wrong 2.

---

And you're burying your head in the sand and ignoring the many problems and contradictions in this policy.

Lutnick has been making the rounds, adamant that this is not a negotiation tactic. The tariffs are here to stay. They would have to be if Trump is planning for tariffs to replace other taxes. It can't be a negotiation tactic and meaningful revenue generator at the same time. Those are contradictory positions.

And throwing a temper tantrum is not a not a negotiation tactic. We are specifically not honoring previous negotiations, including deals that Trump himself negotiated. Trump is making the US into a lying, unreliable partner who cant be counted on.

---

Not at all burying my head in the sand. Just have experience in import/export, tariffs, etc... Many years working with manufacturing in China and the advantage they have with government supported industry.
This is not new.

I also am clever enough not to be blinded by Trumps approach (I personally do not like it, and full disclosure did not vote for him). You guys get trolled by him every day. He loves being dramatic. Its what he does.

I like using the leverage we have. And as a capitalist, markets will level to what the consumer is willing to pay and/or companies are willing to sell for.

There are 3 parts to a profit equation. Not one of you have mentioned the 3rd!!!!

---

And apparently you're not going to mention it, either. Very clever!

So we've talked about input costs being forced up by tariffs.
We've talked about prices going up to offset costs.
We've talked about profit going down instead to offset costs.

Ok, I'm on the edge of my seat. What's the 3rd (4th?) part of the profit equation?

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

I guess a lot of people here now like common core math because the math on these tariffs is so made up that it's impossible to believe that smart people think it works.

When you have to lie to get you point across, you aren't standing on solid policy ground. The last administration lied about the inflation reduction act. I guess we're all cool with that spending now.

---

Hokie, you're not this simple minded...

As every person in this Admin has said, we will need a new Tax and regulation system to allow for this to work. Please don't be so myopic...

---

Good thing we have competent professionals making a detailed implementation plan to transition us.

Oh no we're actually just gonna ask chatgpt what to Tariff and wave our hands that everything will work out while every economist says we're full of crap

---

You can not be so one dimensional to not see that the numbers are only there to start negotiations, right?

---

What negotiation? Trump wants to do this because he has had a dumb idea that trade between countries is a zero sum outcome. It's not!

They made up their reciprocal tariff formula that makes zero sense, and tried to pass it off as some sort of complicated calculation, which is a lie. Then on their tariff chart, they put up there an uninhabited island that has a great number of seals and penguins, who somehow are imposing tariffs on imported US goods. The tariff rate is the same for Brazil and Singapore, two countries that are on the opposite ends of the scale with respect to free trade. And a 17% tariff remains on Israel even though they reduced their tariffs to zero.

ITS MAGIC BEANS

All we are going to get is a huge consumption tax increase on goods and services, and a trade war, which has already started with China.

Now, we're celebrating "new" foreign investment in the US manufacturing sector (I say new, because most of it isn't, but hey, we lie about everything else) while penalizing actual US companies and we are high fiving each other!

We have violated every single trade agreement, even ones negotiated by the greatest negotiator in the history of the universe, and pissed off every single one of our allies.

We are penalizing Vietnam for having a trade deficit that WE created by encouraging other countries to divest manufacturing from China and move it to Vietnam.

And none of you can answer any of the why basic economic questions that I've asked over and over, hoping for an answer, but you can't. You want the entire country to be Michigan, where regulation and protectionism drove the auto industry INTO THE GROUND. So now that they've moved to better places in the US with out those regulations and protectionism, you want to penalize these companies for that. Incredible.

All this is going to do is slow the economy down and reduce competition which will drive up costs. We are turning the entire economy into one giant Jones Act.

I give Cary credit, at least he explains his reasoning, which I disagree with, but at least he has an ethos. The rest of you can't explain your way out of a paper bag so you just resort to insults and "its TDS". No its not TDS for me, I would love for this to work, but the US economy isn't the 1880s anymore.

So, I think I have a good case to be myopic.

---

He said last night, while taking questions, that they can be negotiated. We are by far the largest economy in the world. 50% larger than the closest economy. We have so much leverage. For other countries to grow they must trade with the largest economies, ours being the largest by miles!!!!

You keep saying there is going to be a tax meaning an increase in prices and that does not need to be the case. I keep telling you there are three pieces to a profit equation. You are focused on the wrong 2.

---

And you're burying your head in the sand and ignoring the many problems and contradictions in this policy.

Lutnick has been making the rounds, adamant that this is not a negotiation tactic. The tariffs are here to stay. They would have to be if Trump is planning for tariffs to replace other taxes. It can't be a negotiation tactic and meaningful revenue generator at the same time. Those are contradictory positions.

And throwing a temper tantrum is not a not a negotiation tactic. We are specifically not honoring previous negotiations, including deals that Trump himself negotiated. Trump is making the US into a lying, unreliable partner who cant be counted on.

---

Not at all burying my head in the sand. Just have experience in import/export, tariffs, etc... Many years working with manufacturing in China and the advantage they have with government supported industry.
This is not new.

I also am clever enough not to be blinded by Trumps approach (I personally do not like it, and full disclosure did not vote for him). You guys get trolled by him every day. He loves being dramatic. Its what he does.

I like using the leverage we have. And as a capitalist, markets will level to what the consumer is willing to pay and/or companies are willing to sell for.

There are 3 parts to a profit equation. Not one of you have mentioned the 3rd!!!!

---

And apparently you're not going to mention it, either. Very clever!

So we've talked about input costs being forced up by tariffs.
We've talked about prices going up to offset costs.
We've talked about profit going down instead to offset costs.

Ok, I'm on the edge of my seat. What's the 3rd (4th?) part of the profit equation?

---

Cost can be up from Tariffs. Or, a company can move their manufacturing other places... Prices don't have to go up and companies can allow them to affect their margin, as you stated. Additionally, China can subsidize these Chinese companies to offset the tariff and get passed along to the Brand. That all depends how interlocked the two are...

The other may one could be demand...

caryking said:

---

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

I guess a lot of people here now like common core math because the math on these tariffs is so made up that it's impossible to believe that smart people think it works.

When you have to lie to get you point across, you aren't standing on solid policy ground. The last administration lied about the inflation reduction act. I guess we're all cool with that spending now.

---

Hokie, you're not this simple minded...

As every person in this Admin has said, we will need a new Tax and regulation system to allow for this to work. Please don't be so myopic...

---

Good thing we have competent professionals making a detailed implementation plan to transition us.

Oh no we're actually just gonna ask chatgpt what to Tariff and wave our hands that everything will work out while every economist says we're full of crap

---

You can not be so one dimensional to not see that the numbers are only there to start negotiations, right?

---

What negotiation? Trump wants to do this because he has had a dumb idea that trade between countries is a zero sum outcome. It's not!

They made up their reciprocal tariff formula that makes zero sense, and tried to pass it off as some sort of complicated calculation, which is a lie. Then on their tariff chart, they put up there an uninhabited island that has a great number of seals and penguins, who somehow are imposing tariffs on imported US goods. The tariff rate is the same for Brazil and Singapore, two countries that are on the opposite ends of the scale with respect to free trade. And a 17% tariff remains on Israel even though they reduced their tariffs to zero.

ITS MAGIC BEANS

All we are going to get is a huge consumption tax increase on goods and services, and a trade war, which has already started with China.

Now, we're celebrating "new" foreign investment in the US manufacturing sector (I say new, because most of it isn't, but hey, we lie about everything else) while penalizing actual US companies and we are high fiving each other!

We have violated every single trade agreement, even ones negotiated by the greatest negotiator in the history of the universe, and pissed off every single one of our allies.

We are penalizing Vietnam for having a trade deficit that WE created by encouraging other countries to divest manufacturing from China and move it to Vietnam.

And none of you can answer any of the why basic economic questions that I've asked over and over, hoping for an answer, but you can't. You want the entire country to be Michigan, where regulation and protectionism drove the auto industry INTO THE GROUND. So now that they've moved to better places in the US with out those regulations and protectionism, you want to penalize these companies for that. Incredible.

All this is going to do is slow the economy down and reduce competition which will drive up costs. We are turning the entire economy into one giant Jones Act.

I give Cary credit, at least he explains his reasoning, which I disagree with, but at least he has an ethos. The rest of you can't explain your way out of a paper bag so you just resort to insults and "its TDS". No its not TDS for me, I would love for this to work, but the US economy isn't the 1880s anymore.

So, I think I have a good case to be myopic.

---

He said last night, while taking questions, that they can be negotiated. We are by far the largest economy in the world. 50% larger than the closest economy. We have so much leverage. For other countries to grow they must trade with the largest economies, ours being the largest by miles!!!!

You keep saying there is going to be a tax meaning an increase in prices and that does not need to be the case. I keep telling you there are three pieces to a profit equation. You are focused on the wrong 2.

---

And you're burying your head in the sand and ignoring the many problems and contradictions in this policy.

Lutnick has been making the rounds, adamant that this is not a negotiation tactic. The tariffs are here to stay. They would have to be if Trump is planning for tariffs to replace other taxes. It can't be a negotiation tactic and meaningful revenue generator at the same time. Those are contradictory positions.

And throwing a temper tantrum is not a not a negotiation tactic. We are specifically not honoring previous negotiations, including deals that Trump himself negotiated. Trump is making the US into a lying, unreliable partner who cant be counted on.

---

Not at all burying my head in the sand. Just have experience in import/export, tariffs, etc... Many years working with manufacturing in China and the advantage they have with government supported industry.
This is not new.

I also am clever enough not to be blinded by Trumps approach (I personally do not like it, and full disclosure did not vote for him). You guys get trolled by him every day. He loves being dramatic. Its what he does.

I like using the leverage we have. And as a capitalist, markets will level to what the consumer is willing to pay and/or companies are willing to sell for.

There are 3 parts to a profit equation. Not one of you have mentioned the 3rd!!!!

---

And apparently you're not going to mention it, either. Very clever!

So we've talked about input costs being forced up by tariffs.
We've talked about prices going up to offset costs.
We've talked about profit going down instead to offset costs.

Ok, I'm on the edge of my seat. What's the 3rd (4th?) part of the profit equation?

---

Cost can be up from Tariffs. Or, a company can move their manufacturing other places... Prices don't have to go up and companies can allow them to affect their margin, as you stated. Additionally, China can subsidize these Chinese companies to offset the tariff and get passed along to the Brand. That all depends how interlocked the two are...

The other may one could be demand...

---

Why would a company move their manufacturing and expend capital when they are losing profits to invest in capital?

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

I guess a lot of people here now like common core math because the math on these tariffs is so made up that it's impossible to believe that smart people think it works.

When you have to lie to get you point across, you aren't standing on solid policy ground. The last administration lied about the inflation reduction act. I guess we're all cool with that spending now.

---

Hokie, you're not this simple minded...

As every person in this Admin has said, we will need a new Tax and regulation system to allow for this to work. Please don't be so myopic...

---

Good thing we have competent professionals making a detailed implementation plan to transition us.

Oh no we're actually just gonna ask chatgpt what to Tariff and wave our hands that everything will work out while every economist says we're full of crap

---

You can not be so one dimensional to not see that the numbers are only there to start negotiations, right?

---

What negotiation? Trump wants to do this because he has had a dumb idea that trade between countries is a zero sum outcome. It's not!

They made up their reciprocal tariff formula that makes zero sense, and tried to pass it off as some sort of complicated calculation, which is a lie. Then on their tariff chart, they put up there an uninhabited island that has a great number of seals and penguins, who somehow are imposing tariffs on imported US goods. The tariff rate is the same for Brazil and Singapore, two countries that are on the opposite ends of the scale with respect to free trade. And a 17% tariff remains on Israel even though they reduced their tariffs to zero.

ITS MAGIC BEANS

All we are going to get is a huge consumption tax increase on goods and services, and a trade war, which has already started with China.

Now, we're celebrating "new" foreign investment in the US manufacturing sector (I say new, because most of it isn't, but hey, we lie about everything else) while penalizing actual US companies and we are high fiving each other!

We have violated every single trade agreement, even ones negotiated by the greatest negotiator in the history of the universe, and pissed off every single one of our allies.

We are penalizing Vietnam for having a trade deficit that WE created by encouraging other countries to divest manufacturing from China and move it to Vietnam.

And none of you can answer any of the why basic economic questions that I've asked over and over, hoping for an answer, but you can't. You want the entire country to be Michigan, where regulation and protectionism drove the auto industry INTO THE GROUND. So now that they've moved to better places in the US with out those regulations and protectionism, you want to penalize these companies for that. Incredible.

All this is going to do is slow the economy down and reduce competition which will drive up costs. We are turning the entire economy into one giant Jones Act.

I give Cary credit, at least he explains his reasoning, which I disagree with, but at least he has an ethos. The rest of you can't explain your way out of a paper bag so you just resort to insults and "its TDS". No its not TDS for me, I would love for this to work, but the US economy isn't the 1880s anymore.

So, I think I have a good case to be myopic.

---

He said last night, while taking questions, that they can be negotiated. We are by far the largest economy in the world. 50% larger than the closest economy. We have so much leverage. For other countries to grow they must trade with the largest economies, ours being the largest by miles!!!!

You keep saying there is going to be a tax meaning an increase in prices and that does not need to be the case. I keep telling you there are three pieces to a profit equation. You are focused on the wrong 2.

---

And you're burying your head in the sand and ignoring the many problems and contradictions in this policy.

Lutnick has been making the rounds, adamant that this is not a negotiation tactic. The tariffs are here to stay. They would have to be if Trump is planning for tariffs to replace other taxes. It can't be a negotiation tactic and meaningful revenue generator at the same time. Those are contradictory positions.

And throwing a temper tantrum is not a not a negotiation tactic. We are specifically not honoring previous negotiations, including deals that Trump himself negotiated. Trump is making the US into a lying, unreliable partner who cant be counted on.

---

Not at all burying my head in the sand. Just have experience in import/export, tariffs, etc... Many years working with manufacturing in China and the advantage they have with government supported industry.
This is not new.

I also am clever enough not to be blinded by Trumps approach (I personally do not like it, and full disclosure did not vote for him). You guys get trolled by him every day. He loves being dramatic. Its what he does.

I like using the leverage we have. And as a capitalist, markets will level to what the consumer is willing to pay and/or companies are willing to sell for.

There are 3 parts to a profit equation. Not one of you have mentioned the 3rd!!!!

---

And apparently you're not going to mention it, either. Very clever!

So we've talked about input costs being forced up by tariffs.
We've talked about prices going up to offset costs.
We've talked about profit going down instead to offset costs.

Ok, I'm on the edge of my seat. What's the 3rd (4th?) part of the profit equation?

---

Total cost. Prices should be market driven.

Cthepack said:

---

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

I guess a lot of people here now like common core math because the math on these tariffs is so made up that it's impossible to believe that smart people think it works.

When you have to lie to get you point across, you aren't standing on solid policy ground. The last administration lied about the inflation reduction act. I guess we're all cool with that spending now.

---

Hokie, you're not this simple minded...

As every person in this Admin has said, we will need a new Tax and regulation system to allow for this to work. Please don't be so myopic...

---

Good thing we have competent professionals making a detailed implementation plan to transition us.

Oh no we're actually just gonna ask chatgpt what to Tariff and wave our hands that everything will work out while every economist says we're full of crap

---

You can not be so one dimensional to not see that the numbers are only there to start negotiations, right?

---

What negotiation? Trump wants to do this because he has had a dumb idea that trade between countries is a zero sum outcome. It's not!

They made up their reciprocal tariff formula that makes zero sense, and tried to pass it off as some sort of complicated calculation, which is a lie. Then on their tariff chart, they put up there an uninhabited island that has a great number of seals and penguins, who somehow are imposing tariffs on imported US goods. The tariff rate is the same for Brazil and Singapore, two countries that are on the opposite ends of the scale with respect to free trade. And a 17% tariff remains on Israel even though they reduced their tariffs to zero.

ITS MAGIC BEANS

All we are going to get is a huge consumption tax increase on goods and services, and a trade war, which has already started with China.

Now, we're celebrating "new" foreign investment in the US manufacturing sector (I say new, because most of it isn't, but hey, we lie about everything else) while penalizing actual US companies and we are high fiving each other!

We have violated every single trade agreement, even ones negotiated by the greatest negotiator in the history of the universe, and pissed off every single one of our allies.

We are penalizing Vietnam for having a trade deficit that WE created by encouraging other countries to divest manufacturing from China and move it to Vietnam.

And none of you can answer any of the why basic economic questions that I've asked over and over, hoping for an answer, but you can't. You want the entire country to be Michigan, where regulation and protectionism drove the auto industry INTO THE GROUND. So now that they've moved to better places in the US with out those regulations and protectionism, you want to penalize these companies for that. Incredible.

All this is going to do is slow the economy down and reduce competition which will drive up costs. We are turning the entire economy into one giant Jones Act.

I give Cary credit, at least he explains his reasoning, which I disagree with, but at least he has an ethos. The rest of you can't explain your way out of a paper bag so you just resort to insults and "its TDS". No its not TDS for me, I would love for this to work, but the US economy isn't the 1880s anymore.

So, I think I have a good case to be myopic.

---

He said last night, while taking questions, that they can be negotiated. We are by far the largest economy in the world. 50% larger than the closest economy. We have so much leverage. For other countries to grow they must trade with the largest economies, ours being the largest by miles!!!!

You keep saying there is going to be a tax meaning an increase in prices and that does not need to be the case. I keep telling you there are three pieces to a profit equation. You are focused on the wrong 2.

---

And you're burying your head in the sand and ignoring the many problems and contradictions in this policy.

Lutnick has been making the rounds, adamant that this is not a negotiation tactic. The tariffs are here to stay. They would have to be if Trump is planning for tariffs to replace other taxes. It can't be a negotiation tactic and meaningful revenue generator at the same time. Those are contradictory positions.

And throwing a temper tantrum is not a not a negotiation tactic. We are specifically not honoring previous negotiations, including deals that Trump himself negotiated. Trump is making the US into a lying, unreliable partner who cant be counted on.

---

Not at all burying my head in the sand. Just have experience in import/export, tariffs, etc... Many years working with manufacturing in China and the advantage they have with government supported industry.
This is not new.

I also am clever enough not to be blinded by Trumps approach (I personally do not like it, and full disclosure did not vote for him). You guys get trolled by him every day. He loves being dramatic. Its what he does.

I like using the leverage we have. And as a capitalist, markets will level to what the consumer is willing to pay and/or companies are willing to sell for.

There are 3 parts to a profit equation. Not one of you have mentioned the 3rd!!!!

---

And apparently you're not going to mention it, either. Very clever!

So we've talked about input costs being forced up by tariffs.
We've talked about prices going up to offset costs.
We've talked about profit going down instead to offset costs.

Ok, I'm on the edge of my seat. What's the 3rd (4th?) part of the profit equation?

---

Total cost. Prices should be market driven.

---

And protectionism reduces competition which generally leads to higher prices.

That's on top of raw materials, where the tariff directly raises prices even on domestic production

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

All, Trump is trying, so I hear, to change the economic system we have. He believes in more manufacturing for a number of reasons (you can go listen to interviews with him and/or is administration). Perhaps people disagree. Fair enough! Heck, Ive disagreed with the standard Republican stance for a long time.

At this point, in general, I believe in the direction of this Administration. For far too long, I've watched the Republican Party get in bed with Elites (big money, business, etc...) at the same time lose the normal person (in which I'm one). So, I have no idea how this is all going to play out; however, I'm along for the ride (good and bad) for a long-term change.

I do believe in the free-market system. That said, I don't believe we have had one for along time. So, if it takes a protectionist environment and a free-market inside of that environment, then so be it...

Its what I believe in...

---

I hear your motivations Cary but it doesn't concern you greatly that you can't point to any past 'protectionist' environment that has ever worked?

---

What I can point to is a globalist history that created the largest wealth gap this country has ever seen. Something that liberals have postered for a lot of years... You remember... the 98% have all the wealth. Tax the rich campain that you and most other liberals have called for...

---

So you imagine a system where we push the ENTIRE tax burden of the country onto the middle and working class via tariffs, while also (according to literally everyone with an advanced degree in economics) dramatically lowering your standard of living, will make the wealth gap smaller instead of much MUCH bigger?

Well, I guess I was wrong…. Trump and Vietnam just agreed to remove tariffs

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

I guess a lot of people here now like common core math because the math on these tariffs is so made up that it's impossible to believe that smart people think it works.

When you have to lie to get you point across, you aren't standing on solid policy ground. The last administration lied about the inflation reduction act. I guess we're all cool with that spending now.

---

Hokie, you're not this simple minded...

As every person in this Admin has said, we will need a new Tax and regulation system to allow for this to work. Please don't be so myopic...

---

Good thing we have competent professionals making a detailed implementation plan to transition us.

Oh no we're actually just gonna ask chatgpt what to Tariff and wave our hands that everything will work out while every economist says we're full of crap

---

You can not be so one dimensional to not see that the numbers are only there to start negotiations, right?

---

What negotiation? Trump wants to do this because he has had a dumb idea that trade between countries is a zero sum outcome. It's not!

They made up their reciprocal tariff formula that makes zero sense, and tried to pass it off as some sort of complicated calculation, which is a lie. Then on their tariff chart, they put up there an uninhabited island that has a great number of seals and penguins, who somehow are imposing tariffs on imported US goods. The tariff rate is the same for Brazil and Singapore, two countries that are on the opposite ends of the scale with respect to free trade. And a 17% tariff remains on Israel even though they reduced their tariffs to zero.

ITS MAGIC BEANS

All we are going to get is a huge consumption tax increase on goods and services, and a trade war, which has already started with China.

Now, we're celebrating "new" foreign investment in the US manufacturing sector (I say new, because most of it isn't, but hey, we lie about everything else) while penalizing actual US companies and we are high fiving each other!

We have violated every single trade agreement, even ones negotiated by the greatest negotiator in the history of the universe, and pissed off every single one of our allies.

We are penalizing Vietnam for having a trade deficit that WE created by encouraging other countries to divest manufacturing from China and move it to Vietnam.

And none of you can answer any of the why basic economic questions that I've asked over and over, hoping for an answer, but you can't. You want the entire country to be Michigan, where regulation and protectionism drove the auto industry INTO THE GROUND. So now that they've moved to better places in the US with out those regulations and protectionism, you want to penalize these companies for that. Incredible.

All this is going to do is slow the economy down and reduce competition which will drive up costs. We are turning the entire economy into one giant Jones Act.

I give Cary credit, at least he explains his reasoning, which I disagree with, but at least he has an ethos. The rest of you can't explain your way out of a paper bag so you just resort to insults and "its TDS". No its not TDS for me, I would love for this to work, but the US economy isn't the 1880s anymore.

So, I think I have a good case to be myopic.

---

He said last night, while taking questions, that they can be negotiated. We are by far the largest economy in the world. 50% larger than the closest economy. We have so much leverage. For other countries to grow they must trade with the largest economies, ours being the largest by miles!!!!

You keep saying there is going to be a tax meaning an increase in prices and that does not need to be the case. I keep telling you there are three pieces to a profit equation. You are focused on the wrong 2.

---

And you're burying your head in the sand and ignoring the many problems and contradictions in this policy.

Lutnick has been making the rounds, adamant that this is not a negotiation tactic. The tariffs are here to stay. They would have to be if Trump is planning for tariffs to replace other taxes. It can't be a negotiation tactic and meaningful revenue generator at the same time. Those are contradictory positions.

And throwing a temper tantrum is not a not a negotiation tactic. We are specifically not honoring previous negotiations, including deals that Trump himself negotiated. Trump is making the US into a lying, unreliable partner who cant be counted on.

---

Not at all burying my head in the sand. Just have experience in import/export, tariffs, etc... Many years working with manufacturing in China and the advantage they have with government supported industry.
This is not new.

I also am clever enough not to be blinded by Trumps approach (I personally do not like it, and full disclosure did not vote for him). You guys get trolled by him every day. He loves being dramatic. Its what he does.

I like using the leverage we have. And as a capitalist, markets will level to what the consumer is willing to pay and/or companies are willing to sell for.

There are 3 parts to a profit equation. Not one of you have mentioned the 3rd!!!!

---

And apparently you're not going to mention it, either. Very clever!

So we've talked about input costs being forced up by tariffs.
We've talked about prices going up to offset costs.
We've talked about profit going down instead to offset costs.

Ok, I'm on the edge of my seat. What's the 3rd (4th?) part of the profit equation?

---

Cost can be up from Tariffs. Or, a company can move their manufacturing other places... Prices don't have to go up and companies can allow them to affect their margin, as you stated. Additionally, China can subsidize these Chinese companies to offset the tariff and get passed along to the Brand. That all depends how interlocked the two are...

The other may one could be demand...

---

Why would a company move their manufacturing and expend capital when they are losing profits to invest in capital?

---

Go ask all the Chinese company's. That's exactly what they've done..

SmaptyWolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

caryking said:

---

All, Trump is trying, so I hear, to change the economic system we have. He believes in more manufacturing for a number of reasons (you can go listen to interviews with him and/or is administration). Perhaps people disagree. Fair enough! Heck, Ive disagreed with the standard Republican stance for a long time.

At this point, in general, I believe in the direction of this Administration. For far too long, I've watched the Republican Party get in bed with Elites (big money, business, etc...) at the same time lose the normal person (in which I'm one). So, I have no idea how this is all going to play out; however, I'm along for the ride (good and bad) for a long-term change.

I do believe in the free-market system. That said, I don't believe we have had one for along time. So, if it takes a protectionist environment and a free-market inside of that environment, then so be it...

Its what I believe in...

---

I hear your motivations Cary but it doesn't concern you greatly that you can't point to any past 'protectionist' environment that has ever worked?

---

What I can point to is a globalist history that created the largest wealth gap this country has ever seen. Something that liberals have postered for a lot of years... You remember... the 98% have all the wealth. Tax the rich campain that you and most other liberals have called for...

---

So you imagine a system where we push the ENTIRE tax burden of the country onto the middle and working class via tariffs, while also (according to literally everyone with an advanced degree in economics) dramatically lowering your standard of living, will make the wealth gap smaller instead of much MUCH bigger?

---

LFMAO. Since when do commie Leftists care about lowering taxes on the working class?? Your god Karl Marx explicitly called for the income tax, and property taxes. Those are the literally the first 2 planks of the Communist Manifesto. The religion of the communist Left is taxing working people and stealing their wealth, in order to fund an all-powerful State/government that controls every aspect of our lives.

You are dead wrong, as usual. Tariffs do NOT push the "entire tax burden of the country on the middle and working class". That is a complete LIE. First of all, the foreign corporation/nation literally pays the tariff (tax) in the first place. Not Americans. And the cost of those foreign goods that are subject to a tariff will NOT necessarily increase in price by the same proportion as the tariff. Those foreign goods may not even increase in price much at all, because those companies that produce those tariffed goods still have to compete with other goods in the market, and can only raise prices so much.

And, if course, tariffs only affect goods produced overseas. Hypothetically, most people will be able to buy domestically produced goods (not affected by tariffs) for 90%+ of the things they buy (with that percentage increasing in time, as more manufacturing returns to the USA). To avoid any impact of goods that might have increased in price by tariffs, all that person has to do is choose to buy domestically-produced goods that are not affected by tariffs.

And the END RESULT of tariffs is that more and more manufacturing of goods will come back to the United States. That is the whole purpose of enacting the tariffs -- to bring manufacturing back to the United States, which not only brings jobs but also protects our national security. We already see this occurring with, for example, many automobile manufacturers announcing increasing or moving more production to the United States. So, in the end, as a result of these tariffs, more and more of the goods that are consumed by Americans will be manufactured inside the United States (with no tariff placed on them).

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

I guess a lot of people here now like common core math because the math on these tariffs is so made up that it's impossible to believe that smart people think it works.

When you have to lie to get you point across, you aren't standing on solid policy ground. The last administration lied about the inflation reduction act. I guess we're all cool with that spending now.

---

Hokie, you're not this simple minded...

As every person in this Admin has said, we will need a new Tax and regulation system to allow for this to work. Please don't be so myopic...

---

Good thing we have competent professionals making a detailed implementation plan to transition us.

Oh no we're actually just gonna ask chatgpt what to Tariff and wave our hands that everything will work out while every economist says we're full of crap

---

You can not be so one dimensional to not see that the numbers are only there to start negotiations, right?

---

What negotiation? Trump wants to do this because he has had a dumb idea that trade between countries is a zero sum outcome. It's not!

They made up their reciprocal tariff formula that makes zero sense, and tried to pass it off as some sort of complicated calculation, which is a lie. Then on their tariff chart, they put up there an uninhabited island that has a great number of seals and penguins, who somehow are imposing tariffs on imported US goods. The tariff rate is the same for Brazil and Singapore, two countries that are on the opposite ends of the scale with respect to free trade. And a 17% tariff remains on Israel even though they reduced their tariffs to zero.

ITS MAGIC BEANS

All we are going to get is a huge consumption tax increase on goods and services, and a trade war, which has already started with China.

Now, we're celebrating "new" foreign investment in the US manufacturing sector (I say new, because most of it isn't, but hey, we lie about everything else) while penalizing actual US companies and we are high fiving each other!

We have violated every single trade agreement, even ones negotiated by the greatest negotiator in the history of the universe, and pissed off every single one of our allies.

We are penalizing Vietnam for having a trade deficit that WE created by encouraging other countries to divest manufacturing from China and move it to Vietnam.

And none of you can answer any of the why basic economic questions that I've asked over and over, hoping for an answer, but you can't. You want the entire country to be Michigan, where regulation and protectionism drove the auto industry INTO THE GROUND. So now that they've moved to better places in the US with out those regulations and protectionism, you want to penalize these companies for that. Incredible.

All this is going to do is slow the economy down and reduce competition which will drive up costs. We are turning the entire economy into one giant Jones Act.

I give Cary credit, at least he explains his reasoning, which I disagree with, but at least he has an ethos. The rest of you can't explain your way out of a paper bag so you just resort to insults and "its TDS". No its not TDS for me, I would love for this to work, but the US economy isn't the 1880s anymore.

So, I think I have a good case to be myopic.

---

He said last night, while taking questions, that they can be negotiated. We are by far the largest economy in the world. 50% larger than the closest economy. We have so much leverage. For other countries to grow they must trade with the largest economies, ours being the largest by miles!!!!

You keep saying there is going to be a tax meaning an increase in prices and that does not need to be the case. I keep telling you there are three pieces to a profit equation. You are focused on the wrong 2.

---

And you're burying your head in the sand and ignoring the many problems and contradictions in this policy.

Lutnick has been making the rounds, adamant that this is not a negotiation tactic. The tariffs are here to stay. They would have to be if Trump is planning for tariffs to replace other taxes. It can't be a negotiation tactic and meaningful revenue generator at the same time. Those are contradictory positions.

And throwing a temper tantrum is not a not a negotiation tactic. We are specifically not honoring previous negotiations, including deals that Trump himself negotiated. Trump is making the US into a lying, unreliable partner who cant be counted on.

---

Not at all burying my head in the sand. Just have experience in import/export, tariffs, etc... Many years working with manufacturing in China and the advantage they have with government supported industry.
This is not new.

I also am clever enough not to be blinded by Trumps approach (I personally do not like it, and full disclosure did not vote for him). You guys get trolled by him every day. He loves being dramatic. Its what he does.

I like using the leverage we have. And as a capitalist, markets will level to what the consumer is willing to pay and/or companies are willing to sell for.

There are 3 parts to a profit equation. Not one of you have mentioned the 3rd!!!!

---

And apparently you're not going to mention it, either. Very clever!

So we've talked about input costs being forced up by tariffs.
We've talked about prices going up to offset costs.
We've talked about profit going down instead to offset costs.

Ok, I'm on the edge of my seat. What's the 3rd (4th?) part of the profit equation?

---

Total cost. Prices should be market driven.

---

And protectionism reduces competition which generally leads to higher prices.

That's on top of raw materials, where the tariff directly raises prices even on domestic production

---

Again, prices should be market driven. Protectionism does not have to reduce competition in a non communist market.

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

I guess a lot of people here now like common core math because the math on these tariffs is so made up that it's impossible to believe that smart people think it works.

When you have to lie to get you point across, you aren't standing on solid policy ground. The last administration lied about the inflation reduction act. I guess we're all cool with that spending now.

---

Hokie, you're not this simple minded...

As every person in this Admin has said, we will need a new Tax and regulation system to allow for this to work. Please don't be so myopic...

---

Good thing we have competent professionals making a detailed implementation plan to transition us.

Oh no we're actually just gonna ask chatgpt what to Tariff and wave our hands that everything will work out while every economist says we're full of crap

---

You can not be so one dimensional to not see that the numbers are only there to start negotiations, right?

---

What negotiation? Trump wants to do this because he has had a dumb idea that trade between countries is a zero sum outcome. It's not!

They made up their reciprocal tariff formula that makes zero sense, and tried to pass it off as some sort of complicated calculation, which is a lie. Then on their tariff chart, they put up there an uninhabited island that has a great number of seals and penguins, who somehow are imposing tariffs on imported US goods. The tariff rate is the same for Brazil and Singapore, two countries that are on the opposite ends of the scale with respect to free trade. And a 17% tariff remains on Israel even though they reduced their tariffs to zero.

ITS MAGIC BEANS

All we are going to get is a huge consumption tax increase on goods and services, and a trade war, which has already started with China.

Now, we're celebrating "new" foreign investment in the US manufacturing sector (I say new, because most of it isn't, but hey, we lie about everything else) while penalizing actual US companies and we are high fiving each other!

We have violated every single trade agreement, even ones negotiated by the greatest negotiator in the history of the universe, and pissed off every single one of our allies.

We are penalizing Vietnam for having a trade deficit that WE created by encouraging other countries to divest manufacturing from China and move it to Vietnam.

And none of you can answer any of the why basic economic questions that I've asked over and over, hoping for an answer, but you can't. You want the entire country to be Michigan, where regulation and protectionism drove the auto industry INTO THE GROUND. So now that they've moved to better places in the US with out those regulations and protectionism, you want to penalize these companies for that. Incredible.

All this is going to do is slow the economy down and reduce competition which will drive up costs. We are turning the entire economy into one giant Jones Act.

I give Cary credit, at least he explains his reasoning, which I disagree with, but at least he has an ethos. The rest of you can't explain your way out of a paper bag so you just resort to insults and "its TDS". No its not TDS for me, I would love for this to work, but the US economy isn't the 1880s anymore.

So, I think I have a good case to be myopic.

---

He said last night, while taking questions, that they can be negotiated. We are by far the largest economy in the world. 50% larger than the closest economy. We have so much leverage. For other countries to grow they must trade with the largest economies, ours being the largest by miles!!!!

You keep saying there is going to be a tax meaning an increase in prices and that does not need to be the case. I keep telling you there are three pieces to a profit equation. You are focused on the wrong 2.

---

And you're burying your head in the sand and ignoring the many problems and contradictions in this policy.

Lutnick has been making the rounds, adamant that this is not a negotiation tactic. The tariffs are here to stay. They would have to be if Trump is planning for tariffs to replace other taxes. It can't be a negotiation tactic and meaningful revenue generator at the same time. Those are contradictory positions.

And throwing a temper tantrum is not a not a negotiation tactic. We are specifically not honoring previous negotiations, including deals that Trump himself negotiated. Trump is making the US into a lying, unreliable partner who cant be counted on.

---

Not at all burying my head in the sand. Just have experience in import/export, tariffs, etc... Many years working with manufacturing in China and the advantage they have with government supported industry.
This is not new.

I also am clever enough not to be blinded by Trumps approach (I personally do not like it, and full disclosure did not vote for him). You guys get trolled by him every day. He loves being dramatic. Its what he does.

I like using the leverage we have. And as a capitalist, markets will level to what the consumer is willing to pay and/or companies are willing to sell for.

There are 3 parts to a profit equation. Not one of you have mentioned the 3rd!!!!

---

And apparently you're not going to mention it, either. Very clever!

So we've talked about input costs being forced up by tariffs.
We've talked about prices going up to offset costs.
We've talked about profit going down instead to offset costs.

Ok, I'm on the edge of my seat. What's the 3rd (4th?) part of the profit equation?

---

Cost can be up from Tariffs. Or, a company can move their manufacturing other places... Prices don't have to go up and companies can allow them to affect their margin, as you stated. Additionally, China can subsidize these Chinese companies to offset the tariff and get passed along to the Brand. That all depends how interlocked the two are...

The other may one could be demand...

---

Why would a company move their manufacturing and expend capital when they are losing profits to invest in capital?

---

Go ask all the Chinese company's. That's exactly what they've done..

---

Chinese companies aren't a good example because the government is so heavily involved. How about US companies? Do they make capital investments when they are losing profit?

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

I guess a lot of people here now like common core math because the math on these tariffs is so made up that it's impossible to believe that smart people think it works.

When you have to lie to get you point across, you aren't standing on solid policy ground. The last administration lied about the inflation reduction act. I guess we're all cool with that spending now.

---

Hokie, you're not this simple minded...

As every person in this Admin has said, we will need a new Tax and regulation system to allow for this to work. Please don't be so myopic...

---

Good thing we have competent professionals making a detailed implementation plan to transition us.

Oh no we're actually just gonna ask chatgpt what to Tariff and wave our hands that everything will work out while every economist says we're full of crap

---

You can not be so one dimensional to not see that the numbers are only there to start negotiations, right?

---

What negotiation? Trump wants to do this because he has had a dumb idea that trade between countries is a zero sum outcome. It's not!

They made up their reciprocal tariff formula that makes zero sense, and tried to pass it off as some sort of complicated calculation, which is a lie. Then on their tariff chart, they put up there an uninhabited island that has a great number of seals and penguins, who somehow are imposing tariffs on imported US goods. The tariff rate is the same for Brazil and Singapore, two countries that are on the opposite ends of the scale with respect to free trade. And a 17% tariff remains on Israel even though they reduced their tariffs to zero.

ITS MAGIC BEANS

All we are going to get is a huge consumption tax increase on goods and services, and a trade war, which has already started with China.

Now, we're celebrating "new" foreign investment in the US manufacturing sector (I say new, because most of it isn't, but hey, we lie about everything else) while penalizing actual US companies and we are high fiving each other!

We have violated every single trade agreement, even ones negotiated by the greatest negotiator in the history of the universe, and pissed off every single one of our allies.

We are penalizing Vietnam for having a trade deficit that WE created by encouraging other countries to divest manufacturing from China and move it to Vietnam.

And none of you can answer any of the why basic economic questions that I've asked over and over, hoping for an answer, but you can't. You want the entire country to be Michigan, where regulation and protectionism drove the auto industry INTO THE GROUND. So now that they've moved to better places in the US with out those regulations and protectionism, you want to penalize these companies for that. Incredible.

All this is going to do is slow the economy down and reduce competition which will drive up costs. We are turning the entire economy into one giant Jones Act.

I give Cary credit, at least he explains his reasoning, which I disagree with, but at least he has an ethos. The rest of you can't explain your way out of a paper bag so you just resort to insults and "its TDS". No its not TDS for me, I would love for this to work, but the US economy isn't the 1880s anymore.

So, I think I have a good case to be myopic.

---

He said last night, while taking questions, that they can be negotiated. We are by far the largest economy in the world. 50% larger than the closest economy. We have so much leverage. For other countries to grow they must trade with the largest economies, ours being the largest by miles!!!!

You keep saying there is going to be a tax meaning an increase in prices and that does not need to be the case. I keep telling you there are three pieces to a profit equation. You are focused on the wrong 2.

---

And you're burying your head in the sand and ignoring the many problems and contradictions in this policy.

Lutnick has been making the rounds, adamant that this is not a negotiation tactic. The tariffs are here to stay. They would have to be if Trump is planning for tariffs to replace other taxes. It can't be a negotiation tactic and meaningful revenue generator at the same time. Those are contradictory positions.

And throwing a temper tantrum is not a not a negotiation tactic. We are specifically not honoring previous negotiations, including deals that Trump himself negotiated. Trump is making the US into a lying, unreliable partner who cant be counted on.

---

Not at all burying my head in the sand. Just have experience in import/export, tariffs, etc... Many years working with manufacturing in China and the advantage they have with government supported industry.
This is not new.

I also am clever enough not to be blinded by Trumps approach (I personally do not like it, and full disclosure did not vote for him). You guys get trolled by him every day. He loves being dramatic. Its what he does.

I like using the leverage we have. And as a capitalist, markets will level to what the consumer is willing to pay and/or companies are willing to sell for.

There are 3 parts to a profit equation. Not one of you have mentioned the 3rd!!!!

---

And apparently you're not going to mention it, either. Very clever!

So we've talked about input costs being forced up by tariffs.
We've talked about prices going up to offset costs.
We've talked about profit going down instead to offset costs.

Ok, I'm on the edge of my seat. What's the 3rd (4th?) part of the profit equation?

---

Cost can be up from Tariffs. Or, a company can move their manufacturing other places... Prices don't have to go up and companies can allow them to affect their margin, as you stated. Additionally, China can subsidize these Chinese companies to offset the tariff and get passed along to the Brand. That all depends how interlocked the two are...

The other may one could be demand...

---

Why would a company move their manufacturing and expend capital when they are losing profits to invest in capital?

---

Go ask all the Chinese company's. That's exactly what they've done..

---

Chinese companies aren't a good example because the government is so heavily involved. How about US companies? Do they make capital investments when they are losing profit?

---

There are lots of variables but yes they do. PEs do this all the time. They take over a non-profitable company and invest heavily, including capital investments.

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

I guess a lot of people here now like common core math because the math on these tariffs is so made up that it's impossible to believe that smart people think it works.

When you have to lie to get you point across, you aren't standing on solid policy ground. The last administration lied about the inflation reduction act. I guess we're all cool with that spending now.

---

Hokie, you're not this simple minded...

As every person in this Admin has said, we will need a new Tax and regulation system to allow for this to work. Please don't be so myopic...

---

Good thing we have competent professionals making a detailed implementation plan to transition us.

Oh no we're actually just gonna ask chatgpt what to Tariff and wave our hands that everything will work out while every economist says we're full of crap

---

You can not be so one dimensional to not see that the numbers are only there to start negotiations, right?

---

What negotiation? Trump wants to do this because he has had a dumb idea that trade between countries is a zero sum outcome. It's not!

They made up their reciprocal tariff formula that makes zero sense, and tried to pass it off as some sort of complicated calculation, which is a lie. Then on their tariff chart, they put up there an uninhabited island that has a great number of seals and penguins, who somehow are imposing tariffs on imported US goods. The tariff rate is the same for Brazil and Singapore, two countries that are on the opposite ends of the scale with respect to free trade. And a 17% tariff remains on Israel even though they reduced their tariffs to zero.

ITS MAGIC BEANS

All we are going to get is a huge consumption tax increase on goods and services, and a trade war, which has already started with China.

Now, we're celebrating "new" foreign investment in the US manufacturing sector (I say new, because most of it isn't, but hey, we lie about everything else) while penalizing actual US companies and we are high fiving each other!

We have violated every single trade agreement, even ones negotiated by the greatest negotiator in the history of the universe, and pissed off every single one of our allies.

We are penalizing Vietnam for having a trade deficit that WE created by encouraging other countries to divest manufacturing from China and move it to Vietnam.

And none of you can answer any of the why basic economic questions that I've asked over and over, hoping for an answer, but you can't. You want the entire country to be Michigan, where regulation and protectionism drove the auto industry INTO THE GROUND. So now that they've moved to better places in the US with out those regulations and protectionism, you want to penalize these companies for that. Incredible.

All this is going to do is slow the economy down and reduce competition which will drive up costs. We are turning the entire economy into one giant Jones Act.

I give Cary credit, at least he explains his reasoning, which I disagree with, but at least he has an ethos. The rest of you can't explain your way out of a paper bag so you just resort to insults and "its TDS". No its not TDS for me, I would love for this to work, but the US economy isn't the 1880s anymore.

So, I think I have a good case to be myopic.

---

He said last night, while taking questions, that they can be negotiated. We are by far the largest economy in the world. 50% larger than the closest economy. We have so much leverage. For other countries to grow they must trade with the largest economies, ours being the largest by miles!!!!

You keep saying there is going to be a tax meaning an increase in prices and that does not need to be the case. I keep telling you there are three pieces to a profit equation. You are focused on the wrong 2.

---

And you're burying your head in the sand and ignoring the many problems and contradictions in this policy.

Lutnick has been making the rounds, adamant that this is not a negotiation tactic. The tariffs are here to stay. They would have to be if Trump is planning for tariffs to replace other taxes. It can't be a negotiation tactic and meaningful revenue generator at the same time. Those are contradictory positions.

And throwing a temper tantrum is not a not a negotiation tactic. We are specifically not honoring previous negotiations, including deals that Trump himself negotiated. Trump is making the US into a lying, unreliable partner who cant be counted on.

---

Not at all burying my head in the sand. Just have experience in import/export, tariffs, etc... Many years working with manufacturing in China and the advantage they have with government supported industry.
This is not new.

I also am clever enough not to be blinded by Trumps approach (I personally do not like it, and full disclosure did not vote for him). You guys get trolled by him every day. He loves being dramatic. Its what he does.

I like using the leverage we have. And as a capitalist, markets will level to what the consumer is willing to pay and/or companies are willing to sell for.

There are 3 parts to a profit equation. Not one of you have mentioned the 3rd!!!!

---

And apparently you're not going to mention it, either. Very clever!

So we've talked about input costs being forced up by tariffs.
We've talked about prices going up to offset costs.
We've talked about profit going down instead to offset costs.

Ok, I'm on the edge of my seat. What's the 3rd (4th?) part of the profit equation?

---

Cost can be up from Tariffs. Or, a company can move their manufacturing other places... Prices don't have to go up and companies can allow them to affect their margin, as you stated. Additionally, China can subsidize these Chinese companies to offset the tariff and get passed along to the Brand. That all depends how interlocked the two are...

The other may one could be demand...

---

Why would a company move their manufacturing and expend capital when they are losing profits to invest in capital?

---

Go ask all the Chinese company's. That's exactly what they've done..

---

Chinese companies aren't a good example because the government is so heavily involved. How about US companies? Do they make capital investments when they are losing profit?

---

There are lots of variables but yes they do. PEs do this all the time. They take over a non-profitable company and invest heavily, including capital investments.

---

appreciate everyone explaining to me the special circumstance examples. The answer is no, corporations typically do not make large capital investments such as moving or building new manufacturing capacity when they are making less profit so that they cannot make a return on that investment.

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

I guess a lot of people here now like common core math because the math on these tariffs is so made up that it's impossible to believe that smart people think it works.

When you have to lie to get you point across, you aren't standing on solid policy ground. The last administration lied about the inflation reduction act. I guess we're all cool with that spending now.

---

Hokie, you're not this simple minded...

As every person in this Admin has said, we will need a new Tax and regulation system to allow for this to work. Please don't be so myopic...

---

Good thing we have competent professionals making a detailed implementation plan to transition us.

Oh no we're actually just gonna ask chatgpt what to Tariff and wave our hands that everything will work out while every economist says we're full of crap

---

You can not be so one dimensional to not see that the numbers are only there to start negotiations, right?

---

What negotiation? Trump wants to do this because he has had a dumb idea that trade between countries is a zero sum outcome. It's not!

They made up their reciprocal tariff formula that makes zero sense, and tried to pass it off as some sort of complicated calculation, which is a lie. Then on their tariff chart, they put up there an uninhabited island that has a great number of seals and penguins, who somehow are imposing tariffs on imported US goods. The tariff rate is the same for Brazil and Singapore, two countries that are on the opposite ends of the scale with respect to free trade. And a 17% tariff remains on Israel even though they reduced their tariffs to zero.

ITS MAGIC BEANS

All we are going to get is a huge consumption tax increase on goods and services, and a trade war, which has already started with China.

Now, we're celebrating "new" foreign investment in the US manufacturing sector (I say new, because most of it isn't, but hey, we lie about everything else) while penalizing actual US companies and we are high fiving each other!

We have violated every single trade agreement, even ones negotiated by the greatest negotiator in the history of the universe, and pissed off every single one of our allies.

We are penalizing Vietnam for having a trade deficit that WE created by encouraging other countries to divest manufacturing from China and move it to Vietnam.

And none of you can answer any of the why basic economic questions that I've asked over and over, hoping for an answer, but you can't. You want the entire country to be Michigan, where regulation and protectionism drove the auto industry INTO THE GROUND. So now that they've moved to better places in the US with out those regulations and protectionism, you want to penalize these companies for that. Incredible.

All this is going to do is slow the economy down and reduce competition which will drive up costs. We are turning the entire economy into one giant Jones Act.

I give Cary credit, at least he explains his reasoning, which I disagree with, but at least he has an ethos. The rest of you can't explain your way out of a paper bag so you just resort to insults and "its TDS". No its not TDS for me, I would love for this to work, but the US economy isn't the 1880s anymore.

So, I think I have a good case to be myopic.

---

He said last night, while taking questions, that they can be negotiated. We are by far the largest economy in the world. 50% larger than the closest economy. We have so much leverage. For other countries to grow they must trade with the largest economies, ours being the largest by miles!!!!

You keep saying there is going to be a tax meaning an increase in prices and that does not need to be the case. I keep telling you there are three pieces to a profit equation. You are focused on the wrong 2.

---

And you're burying your head in the sand and ignoring the many problems and contradictions in this policy.

Lutnick has been making the rounds, adamant that this is not a negotiation tactic. The tariffs are here to stay. They would have to be if Trump is planning for tariffs to replace other taxes. It can't be a negotiation tactic and meaningful revenue generator at the same time. Those are contradictory positions.

And throwing a temper tantrum is not a not a negotiation tactic. We are specifically not honoring previous negotiations, including deals that Trump himself negotiated. Trump is making the US into a lying, unreliable partner who cant be counted on.

---

Not at all burying my head in the sand. Just have experience in import/export, tariffs, etc... Many years working with manufacturing in China and the advantage they have with government supported industry.
This is not new.

I also am clever enough not to be blinded by Trumps approach (I personally do not like it, and full disclosure did not vote for him). You guys get trolled by him every day. He loves being dramatic. Its what he does.

I like using the leverage we have. And as a capitalist, markets will level to what the consumer is willing to pay and/or companies are willing to sell for.

There are 3 parts to a profit equation. Not one of you have mentioned the 3rd!!!!

---

And apparently you're not going to mention it, either. Very clever!

So we've talked about input costs being forced up by tariffs.
We've talked about prices going up to offset costs.
We've talked about profit going down instead to offset costs.

Ok, I'm on the edge of my seat. What's the 3rd (4th?) part of the profit equation?

---

Total cost. Prices should be market driven.

---

And protectionism reduces competition which generally leads to higher prices.

That's on top of raw materials, where the tariff directly raises prices even on domestic production

---

Again, prices should be market driven. Protectionism does not have to reduce competition in a non communist market.

---

I'm struggling to follow your point. Either you don't raise the price and eat the extra costs (which then lowers employment, etc), OR you do raise the price which has several possible outcomes:

• Consumers shrug (or for some things have no choice) and pay the higher price. A new tax.
• Demand decreases, forcing you to lower the price back and eat the extra costs
• Demand decreases but you keep the higher price, hurting consumers and reducing your market share and forcing you to eat the extra costs anyway.

Which is the good scenario, again?

Back when Democrats pretended to care about the American middle/working class, and pretended to want to enact tariffs to protect American jobs and pretended to oppose "free trade" deals like NAFTA that shipped American jobs overseas:

https://instagr.am/p/DICL3UAJtsv

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

I guess a lot of people here now like common core math because the math on these tariffs is so made up that it's impossible to believe that smart people think it works.

When you have to lie to get you point across, you aren't standing on solid policy ground. The last administration lied about the inflation reduction act. I guess we're all cool with that spending now.

---

Hokie, you're not this simple minded...

As every person in this Admin has said, we will need a new Tax and regulation system to allow for this to work. Please don't be so myopic...

---

Good thing we have competent professionals making a detailed implementation plan to transition us.

Oh no we're actually just gonna ask chatgpt what to Tariff and wave our hands that everything will work out while every economist says we're full of crap

---

You can not be so one dimensional to not see that the numbers are only there to start negotiations, right?

---

What negotiation? Trump wants to do this because he has had a dumb idea that trade between countries is a zero sum outcome. It's not!

They made up their reciprocal tariff formula that makes zero sense, and tried to pass it off as some sort of complicated calculation, which is a lie. Then on their tariff chart, they put up there an uninhabited island that has a great number of seals and penguins, who somehow are imposing tariffs on imported US goods. The tariff rate is the same for Brazil and Singapore, two countries that are on the opposite ends of the scale with respect to free trade. And a 17% tariff remains on Israel even though they reduced their tariffs to zero.

ITS MAGIC BEANS

All we are going to get is a huge consumption tax increase on goods and services, and a trade war, which has already started with China.

Now, we're celebrating "new" foreign investment in the US manufacturing sector (I say new, because most of it isn't, but hey, we lie about everything else) while penalizing actual US companies and we are high fiving each other!

We have violated every single trade agreement, even ones negotiated by the greatest negotiator in the history of the universe, and pissed off every single one of our allies.

We are penalizing Vietnam for having a trade deficit that WE created by encouraging other countries to divest manufacturing from China and move it to Vietnam.

And none of you can answer any of the why basic economic questions that I've asked over and over, hoping for an answer, but you can't. You want the entire country to be Michigan, where regulation and protectionism drove the auto industry INTO THE GROUND. So now that they've moved to better places in the US with out those regulations and protectionism, you want to penalize these companies for that. Incredible.

All this is going to do is slow the economy down and reduce competition which will drive up costs. We are turning the entire economy into one giant Jones Act.

I give Cary credit, at least he explains his reasoning, which I disagree with, but at least he has an ethos. The rest of you can't explain your way out of a paper bag so you just resort to insults and "its TDS". No its not TDS for me, I would love for this to work, but the US economy isn't the 1880s anymore.

So, I think I have a good case to be myopic.

---

He said last night, while taking questions, that they can be negotiated. We are by far the largest economy in the world. 50% larger than the closest economy. We have so much leverage. For other countries to grow they must trade with the largest economies, ours being the largest by miles!!!!

You keep saying there is going to be a tax meaning an increase in prices and that does not need to be the case. I keep telling you there are three pieces to a profit equation. You are focused on the wrong 2.

---

And you're burying your head in the sand and ignoring the many problems and contradictions in this policy.

Lutnick has been making the rounds, adamant that this is not a negotiation tactic. The tariffs are here to stay. They would have to be if Trump is planning for tariffs to replace other taxes. It can't be a negotiation tactic and meaningful revenue generator at the same time. Those are contradictory positions.

And throwing a temper tantrum is not a not a negotiation tactic. We are specifically not honoring previous negotiations, including deals that Trump himself negotiated. Trump is making the US into a lying, unreliable partner who cant be counted on.

---

Not at all burying my head in the sand. Just have experience in import/export, tariffs, etc... Many years working with manufacturing in China and the advantage they have with government supported industry.
This is not new.

I also am clever enough not to be blinded by Trumps approach (I personally do not like it, and full disclosure did not vote for him). You guys get trolled by him every day. He loves being dramatic. Its what he does.

I like using the leverage we have. And as a capitalist, markets will level to what the consumer is willing to pay and/or companies are willing to sell for.

There are 3 parts to a profit equation. Not one of you have mentioned the 3rd!!!!

---

And apparently you're not going to mention it, either. Very clever!

So we've talked about input costs being forced up by tariffs.
We've talked about prices going up to offset costs.
We've talked about profit going down instead to offset costs.

Ok, I'm on the edge of my seat. What's the 3rd (4th?) part of the profit equation?

---

Cost can be up from Tariffs. Or, a company can move their manufacturing other places... Prices don't have to go up and companies can allow them to affect their margin, as you stated. Additionally, China can subsidize these Chinese companies to offset the tariff and get passed along to the Brand. That all depends how interlocked the two are...

The other may one could be demand...

---

Why would a company move their manufacturing and expend capital when they are losing profits to invest in capital?

---

Go ask all the Chinese company's. That's exactly what they've done..

---

Chinese companies aren't a good example because the government is so heavily involved. How about US companies? Do they make capital investments when they are losing profit?

---

There are lots of variables but yes they do. PEs do this all the time. They take over a non-profitable company and invest heavily, including capital investments.

---

appreciate everyone explaining to me the special circumstance examples. The answer is no, corporations typically do not make large capital investments such as moving or building new manufacturing capacity when they are making less profit so that they cannot make a return on that investment.

---

These are not special circumstances. You choose to believe what you like, I know for a fact that non profitable companies invest in new factories and heavy capital investment to profitably grow.

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

I guess a lot of people here now like common core math because the math on these tariffs is so made up that it's impossible to believe that smart people think it works.

When you have to lie to get you point across, you aren't standing on solid policy ground. The last administration lied about the inflation reduction act. I guess we're all cool with that spending now.

---

Hokie, you're not this simple minded...

As every person in this Admin has said, we will need a new Tax and regulation system to allow for this to work. Please don't be so myopic...

---

Good thing we have competent professionals making a detailed implementation plan to transition us.

Oh no we're actually just gonna ask chatgpt what to Tariff and wave our hands that everything will work out while every economist says we're full of crap

---

You can not be so one dimensional to not see that the numbers are only there to start negotiations, right?

---

What negotiation? Trump wants to do this because he has had a dumb idea that trade between countries is a zero sum outcome. It's not!

They made up their reciprocal tariff formula that makes zero sense, and tried to pass it off as some sort of complicated calculation, which is a lie. Then on their tariff chart, they put up there an uninhabited island that has a great number of seals and penguins, who somehow are imposing tariffs on imported US goods. The tariff rate is the same for Brazil and Singapore, two countries that are on the opposite ends of the scale with respect to free trade. And a 17% tariff remains on Israel even though they reduced their tariffs to zero.

ITS MAGIC BEANS

All we are going to get is a huge consumption tax increase on goods and services, and a trade war, which has already started with China.

Now, we're celebrating "new" foreign investment in the US manufacturing sector (I say new, because most of it isn't, but hey, we lie about everything else) while penalizing actual US companies and we are high fiving each other!

We have violated every single trade agreement, even ones negotiated by the greatest negotiator in the history of the universe, and pissed off every single one of our allies.

We are penalizing Vietnam for having a trade deficit that WE created by encouraging other countries to divest manufacturing from China and move it to Vietnam.

And none of you can answer any of the why basic economic questions that I've asked over and over, hoping for an answer, but you can't. You want the entire country to be Michigan, where regulation and protectionism drove the auto industry INTO THE GROUND. So now that they've moved to better places in the US with out those regulations and protectionism, you want to penalize these companies for that. Incredible.

All this is going to do is slow the economy down and reduce competition which will drive up costs. We are turning the entire economy into one giant Jones Act.

I give Cary credit, at least he explains his reasoning, which I disagree with, but at least he has an ethos. The rest of you can't explain your way out of a paper bag so you just resort to insults and "its TDS". No its not TDS for me, I would love for this to work, but the US economy isn't the 1880s anymore.

So, I think I have a good case to be myopic.

---

He said last night, while taking questions, that they can be negotiated. We are by far the largest economy in the world. 50% larger than the closest economy. We have so much leverage. For other countries to grow they must trade with the largest economies, ours being the largest by miles!!!!

You keep saying there is going to be a tax meaning an increase in prices and that does not need to be the case. I keep telling you there are three pieces to a profit equation. You are focused on the wrong 2.

---

And you're burying your head in the sand and ignoring the many problems and contradictions in this policy.

Lutnick has been making the rounds, adamant that this is not a negotiation tactic. The tariffs are here to stay. They would have to be if Trump is planning for tariffs to replace other taxes. It can't be a negotiation tactic and meaningful revenue generator at the same time. Those are contradictory positions.

And throwing a temper tantrum is not a not a negotiation tactic. We are specifically not honoring previous negotiations, including deals that Trump himself negotiated. Trump is making the US into a lying, unreliable partner who cant be counted on.

---

Not at all burying my head in the sand. Just have experience in import/export, tariffs, etc... Many years working with manufacturing in China and the advantage they have with government supported industry.
This is not new.

I also am clever enough not to be blinded by Trumps approach (I personally do not like it, and full disclosure did not vote for him). You guys get trolled by him every day. He loves being dramatic. Its what he does.

I like using the leverage we have. And as a capitalist, markets will level to what the consumer is willing to pay and/or companies are willing to sell for.

There are 3 parts to a profit equation. Not one of you have mentioned the 3rd!!!!

---

And apparently you're not going to mention it, either. Very clever!

So we've talked about input costs being forced up by tariffs.
We've talked about prices going up to offset costs.
We've talked about profit going down instead to offset costs.

Ok, I'm on the edge of my seat. What's the 3rd (4th?) part of the profit equation?

---

Cost can be up from Tariffs. Or, a company can move their manufacturing other places... Prices don't have to go up and companies can allow them to affect their margin, as you stated. Additionally, China can subsidize these Chinese companies to offset the tariff and get passed along to the Brand. That all depends how interlocked the two are...

The other may one could be demand...

---

Why would a company move their manufacturing and expend capital when they are losing profits to invest in capital?

---

Go ask all the Chinese company's. That's exactly what they've done..

---

Chinese companies aren't a good example because the government is so heavily involved. How about US companies? Do they make capital investments when they are losing profit?

---

There are lots of variables but yes they do. PEs do this all the time. They take over a non-profitable company and invest heavily, including capital investments.

---

appreciate everyone explaining to me the special circumstance examples. The answer is no, corporations typically do not make large capital investments such as moving or building new manufacturing capacity when they are making less profit so that they cannot make a return on that investment.

---

These are not special circumstances. You choose to believe what you like, I know for a fact that non profitable companies invest in new factories and heavy capital investment to profitably grow.

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

I guess a lot of people here now like common core math because the math on these tariffs is so made up that it's impossible to believe that smart people think it works.

When you have to lie to get you point across, you aren't standing on solid policy ground. The last administration lied about the inflation reduction act. I guess we're all cool with that spending now.

---

Hokie, you're not this simple minded...

As every person in this Admin has said, we will need a new Tax and regulation system to allow for this to work. Please don't be so myopic...

---

Good thing we have competent professionals making a detailed implementation plan to transition us.

Oh no we're actually just gonna ask chatgpt what to Tariff and wave our hands that everything will work out while every economist says we're full of crap

---

You can not be so one dimensional to not see that the numbers are only there to start negotiations, right?

---

What negotiation? Trump wants to do this because he has had a dumb idea that trade between countries is a zero sum outcome. It's not!

They made up their reciprocal tariff formula that makes zero sense, and tried to pass it off as some sort of complicated calculation, which is a lie. Then on their tariff chart, they put up there an uninhabited island that has a great number of seals and penguins, who somehow are imposing tariffs on imported US goods. The tariff rate is the same for Brazil and Singapore, two countries that are on the opposite ends of the scale with respect to free trade. And a 17% tariff remains on Israel even though they reduced their tariffs to zero.

ITS MAGIC BEANS

All we are going to get is a huge consumption tax increase on goods and services, and a trade war, which has already started with China.

Now, we're celebrating "new" foreign investment in the US manufacturing sector (I say new, because most of it isn't, but hey, we lie about everything else) while penalizing actual US companies and we are high fiving each other!

We have violated every single trade agreement, even ones negotiated by the greatest negotiator in the history of the universe, and pissed off every single one of our allies.

We are penalizing Vietnam for having a trade deficit that WE created by encouraging other countries to divest manufacturing from China and move it to Vietnam.

And none of you can answer any of the why basic economic questions that I've asked over and over, hoping for an answer, but you can't. You want the entire country to be Michigan, where regulation and protectionism drove the auto industry INTO THE GROUND. So now that they've moved to better places in the US with out those regulations and protectionism, you want to penalize these companies for that. Incredible.

All this is going to do is slow the economy down and reduce competition which will drive up costs. We are turning the entire economy into one giant Jones Act.

I give Cary credit, at least he explains his reasoning, which I disagree with, but at least he has an ethos. The rest of you can't explain your way out of a paper bag so you just resort to insults and "its TDS". No its not TDS for me, I would love for this to work, but the US economy isn't the 1880s anymore.

So, I think I have a good case to be myopic.

---

He said last night, while taking questions, that they can be negotiated. We are by far the largest economy in the world. 50% larger than the closest economy. We have so much leverage. For other countries to grow they must trade with the largest economies, ours being the largest by miles!!!!

You keep saying there is going to be a tax meaning an increase in prices and that does not need to be the case. I keep telling you there are three pieces to a profit equation. You are focused on the wrong 2.

---

And you're burying your head in the sand and ignoring the many problems and contradictions in this policy.

Lutnick has been making the rounds, adamant that this is not a negotiation tactic. The tariffs are here to stay. They would have to be if Trump is planning for tariffs to replace other taxes. It can't be a negotiation tactic and meaningful revenue generator at the same time. Those are contradictory positions.

And throwing a temper tantrum is not a not a negotiation tactic. We are specifically not honoring previous negotiations, including deals that Trump himself negotiated. Trump is making the US into a lying, unreliable partner who cant be counted on.

---

Not at all burying my head in the sand. Just have experience in import/export, tariffs, etc... Many years working with manufacturing in China and the advantage they have with government supported industry.
This is not new.

I also am clever enough not to be blinded by Trumps approach (I personally do not like it, and full disclosure did not vote for him). You guys get trolled by him every day. He loves being dramatic. Its what he does.

I like using the leverage we have. And as a capitalist, markets will level to what the consumer is willing to pay and/or companies are willing to sell for.

There are 3 parts to a profit equation. Not one of you have mentioned the 3rd!!!!

---

And apparently you're not going to mention it, either. Very clever!

So we've talked about input costs being forced up by tariffs.
We've talked about prices going up to offset costs.
We've talked about profit going down instead to offset costs.

Ok, I'm on the edge of my seat. What's the 3rd (4th?) part of the profit equation?

---

Cost can be up from Tariffs. Or, a company can move their manufacturing other places... Prices don't have to go up and companies can allow them to affect their margin, as you stated. Additionally, China can subsidize these Chinese companies to offset the tariff and get passed along to the Brand. That all depends how interlocked the two are...

The other may one could be demand...

---

Why would a company move their manufacturing and expend capital when they are losing profits to invest in capital?

---

Go ask all the Chinese company's. That's exactly what they've done..

---

Chinese companies aren't a good example because the government is so heavily involved. How about US companies? Do they make capital investments when they are losing profit?

---

There are lots of variables but yes they do. PEs do this all the time. They take over a non-profitable company and invest heavily, including capital investments.

---

appreciate everyone explaining to me the special circumstance examples. The answer is no, corporations typically do not make large capital investments such as moving or building new manufacturing capacity when they are making less profit so that they cannot make a return on that investment.

---

These are not special circumstances. You choose to believe what you like, I know for a fact that non profitable companies invest in new factories and heavy capital investment to profitably grow.

---

I do too champ, but when you give them an uncertain economic climate and less profitability, they don't make investments in new capital.

GuerrillaPack said:

---

Back when Democrats pretended to care about the American middle/working class, and pretended to want to enact tariffs to protect American jobs and pretended to oppose "free trade" deals like NAFTA that shipped American jobs overseas:

https://instagr.am/p/DICL3UAJtsv

---

yeah, that math is almost as stupid as the new common core tariff math we're using now. Also, props to you for ignoring me posting this days ago. But it didn't fit your narrative so you probably skipped over it.

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

I guess a lot of people here now like common core math because the math on these tariffs is so made up that it's impossible to believe that smart people think it works.

When you have to lie to get you point across, you aren't standing on solid policy ground. The last administration lied about the inflation reduction act. I guess we're all cool with that spending now.

---

Hokie, you're not this simple minded...

As every person in this Admin has said, we will need a new Tax and regulation system to allow for this to work. Please don't be so myopic...

---

Good thing we have competent professionals making a detailed implementation plan to transition us.

Oh no we're actually just gonna ask chatgpt what to Tariff and wave our hands that everything will work out while every economist says we're full of crap

---

You can not be so one dimensional to not see that the numbers are only there to start negotiations, right?

---

What negotiation? Trump wants to do this because he has had a dumb idea that trade between countries is a zero sum outcome. It's not!

They made up their reciprocal tariff formula that makes zero sense, and tried to pass it off as some sort of complicated calculation, which is a lie. Then on their tariff chart, they put up there an uninhabited island that has a great number of seals and penguins, who somehow are imposing tariffs on imported US goods. The tariff rate is the same for Brazil and Singapore, two countries that are on the opposite ends of the scale with respect to free trade. And a 17% tariff remains on Israel even though they reduced their tariffs to zero.

ITS MAGIC BEANS

All we are going to get is a huge consumption tax increase on goods and services, and a trade war, which has already started with China.

Now, we're celebrating "new" foreign investment in the US manufacturing sector (I say new, because most of it isn't, but hey, we lie about everything else) while penalizing actual US companies and we are high fiving each other!

We have violated every single trade agreement, even ones negotiated by the greatest negotiator in the history of the universe, and pissed off every single one of our allies.

We are penalizing Vietnam for having a trade deficit that WE created by encouraging other countries to divest manufacturing from China and move it to Vietnam.

And none of you can answer any of the why basic economic questions that I've asked over and over, hoping for an answer, but you can't. You want the entire country to be Michigan, where regulation and protectionism drove the auto industry INTO THE GROUND. So now that they've moved to better places in the US with out those regulations and protectionism, you want to penalize these companies for that. Incredible.

All this is going to do is slow the economy down and reduce competition which will drive up costs. We are turning the entire economy into one giant Jones Act.

I give Cary credit, at least he explains his reasoning, which I disagree with, but at least he has an ethos. The rest of you can't explain your way out of a paper bag so you just resort to insults and "its TDS". No its not TDS for me, I would love for this to work, but the US economy isn't the 1880s anymore.

So, I think I have a good case to be myopic.

---

He said last night, while taking questions, that they can be negotiated. We are by far the largest economy in the world. 50% larger than the closest economy. We have so much leverage. For other countries to grow they must trade with the largest economies, ours being the largest by miles!!!!

You keep saying there is going to be a tax meaning an increase in prices and that does not need to be the case. I keep telling you there are three pieces to a profit equation. You are focused on the wrong 2.

---

And you're burying your head in the sand and ignoring the many problems and contradictions in this policy.

Lutnick has been making the rounds, adamant that this is not a negotiation tactic. The tariffs are here to stay. They would have to be if Trump is planning for tariffs to replace other taxes. It can't be a negotiation tactic and meaningful revenue generator at the same time. Those are contradictory positions.

And throwing a temper tantrum is not a not a negotiation tactic. We are specifically not honoring previous negotiations, including deals that Trump himself negotiated. Trump is making the US into a lying, unreliable partner who cant be counted on.

---

Not at all burying my head in the sand. Just have experience in import/export, tariffs, etc... Many years working with manufacturing in China and the advantage they have with government supported industry.
This is not new.

I also am clever enough not to be blinded by Trumps approach (I personally do not like it, and full disclosure did not vote for him). You guys get trolled by him every day. He loves being dramatic. Its what he does.

I like using the leverage we have. And as a capitalist, markets will level to what the consumer is willing to pay and/or companies are willing to sell for.

There are 3 parts to a profit equation. Not one of you have mentioned the 3rd!!!!

---

And apparently you're not going to mention it, either. Very clever!

So we've talked about input costs being forced up by tariffs.
We've talked about prices going up to offset costs.
We've talked about profit going down instead to offset costs.

Ok, I'm on the edge of my seat. What's the 3rd (4th?) part of the profit equation?

---

Total cost. Prices should be market driven.

---

And protectionism reduces competition which generally leads to higher prices.

That's on top of raw materials, where the tariff directly raises prices even on domestic production

---

Again, prices should be market driven. Protectionism does not have to reduce competition in a non communist market.

---

I'm struggling to follow your point. Either you don't raise the price and eat the extra costs (which then lowers employment, etc), OR you do raise the price which has several possible outcomes:

• Consumers shrug (or for some things have no choice) and pay the higher price. A new tax.
• Demand decreases, forcing you to lower the price back and eat the extra costs
• Demand decreases but you keep the higher price, hurting consumers and reducing your market share and forcing you to eat the extra costs anyway.

Which is the good scenario, again?

---

Why am I not surprised someone who does not understand the benefits of adjustable rate borrowing would not understand. You are making a bad assumption that the only thing you can do is around prices. Prices are again not controlled by the producer. The market dictates prices. The producer controls cost. That is your hint.

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

I guess a lot of people here now like common core math because the math on these tariffs is so made up that it's impossible to believe that smart people think it works.

When you have to lie to get you point across, you aren't standing on solid policy ground. The last administration lied about the inflation reduction act. I guess we're all cool with that spending now.

---

Hokie, you're not this simple minded...

As every person in this Admin has said, we will need a new Tax and regulation system to allow for this to work. Please don't be so myopic...

---

Good thing we have competent professionals making a detailed implementation plan to transition us.

Oh no we're actually just gonna ask chatgpt what to Tariff and wave our hands that everything will work out while every economist says we're full of crap

---

You can not be so one dimensional to not see that the numbers are only there to start negotiations, right?

---

What negotiation? Trump wants to do this because he has had a dumb idea that trade between countries is a zero sum outcome. It's not!

They made up their reciprocal tariff formula that makes zero sense, and tried to pass it off as some sort of complicated calculation, which is a lie. Then on their tariff chart, they put up there an uninhabited island that has a great number of seals and penguins, who somehow are imposing tariffs on imported US goods. The tariff rate is the same for Brazil and Singapore, two countries that are on the opposite ends of the scale with respect to free trade. And a 17% tariff remains on Israel even though they reduced their tariffs to zero.

ITS MAGIC BEANS

All we are going to get is a huge consumption tax increase on goods and services, and a trade war, which has already started with China.

Now, we're celebrating "new" foreign investment in the US manufacturing sector (I say new, because most of it isn't, but hey, we lie about everything else) while penalizing actual US companies and we are high fiving each other!

We have violated every single trade agreement, even ones negotiated by the greatest negotiator in the history of the universe, and pissed off every single one of our allies.

We are penalizing Vietnam for having a trade deficit that WE created by encouraging other countries to divest manufacturing from China and move it to Vietnam.

And none of you can answer any of the why basic economic questions that I've asked over and over, hoping for an answer, but you can't. You want the entire country to be Michigan, where regulation and protectionism drove the auto industry INTO THE GROUND. So now that they've moved to better places in the US with out those regulations and protectionism, you want to penalize these companies for that. Incredible.

All this is going to do is slow the economy down and reduce competition which will drive up costs. We are turning the entire economy into one giant Jones Act.

I give Cary credit, at least he explains his reasoning, which I disagree with, but at least he has an ethos. The rest of you can't explain your way out of a paper bag so you just resort to insults and "its TDS". No its not TDS for me, I would love for this to work, but the US economy isn't the 1880s anymore.

So, I think I have a good case to be myopic.

---

He said last night, while taking questions, that they can be negotiated. We are by far the largest economy in the world. 50% larger than the closest economy. We have so much leverage. For other countries to grow they must trade with the largest economies, ours being the largest by miles!!!!

You keep saying there is going to be a tax meaning an increase in prices and that does not need to be the case. I keep telling you there are three pieces to a profit equation. You are focused on the wrong 2.

---

And you're burying your head in the sand and ignoring the many problems and contradictions in this policy.

Lutnick has been making the rounds, adamant that this is not a negotiation tactic. The tariffs are here to stay. They would have to be if Trump is planning for tariffs to replace other taxes. It can't be a negotiation tactic and meaningful revenue generator at the same time. Those are contradictory positions.

And throwing a temper tantrum is not a not a negotiation tactic. We are specifically not honoring previous negotiations, including deals that Trump himself negotiated. Trump is making the US into a lying, unreliable partner who cant be counted on.

---

Not at all burying my head in the sand. Just have experience in import/export, tariffs, etc... Many years working with manufacturing in China and the advantage they have with government supported industry.
This is not new.

I also am clever enough not to be blinded by Trumps approach (I personally do not like it, and full disclosure did not vote for him). You guys get trolled by him every day. He loves being dramatic. Its what he does.

I like using the leverage we have. And as a capitalist, markets will level to what the consumer is willing to pay and/or companies are willing to sell for.

There are 3 parts to a profit equation. Not one of you have mentioned the 3rd!!!!

---

And apparently you're not going to mention it, either. Very clever!

So we've talked about input costs being forced up by tariffs.
We've talked about prices going up to offset costs.
We've talked about profit going down instead to offset costs.

Ok, I'm on the edge of my seat. What's the 3rd (4th?) part of the profit equation?

---

Cost can be up from Tariffs. Or, a company can move their manufacturing other places... Prices don't have to go up and companies can allow them to affect their margin, as you stated. Additionally, China can subsidize these Chinese companies to offset the tariff and get passed along to the Brand. That all depends how interlocked the two are...

The other may one could be demand...

---

Why would a company move their manufacturing and expend capital when they are losing profits to invest in capital?

---

Go ask all the Chinese company's. That's exactly what they've done..

---

Chinese companies aren't a good example because the government is so heavily involved. How about US companies? Do they make capital investments when they are losing profit?

---

There are lots of variables but yes they do. PEs do this all the time. They take over a non-profitable company and invest heavily, including capital investments.

---

appreciate everyone explaining to me the special circumstance examples. The answer is no, corporations typically do not make large capital investments such as moving or building new manufacturing capacity when they are making less profit so that they cannot make a return on that investment.

---

These are not special circumstances. You choose to believe what you like, I know for a fact that non profitable companies invest in new factories and heavy capital investment to profitably grow.

---

I do too champ, but when you give them an uncertain economic climate and less profitability, they don't make investments in new capital.

---

Again you choose to believe what you want to believe.

hokiewolf said:

---

yeah, that math is almost as stupid as the new common core tariff math we're using now. Also, props to you for ignoring me posting this days ago. But it didn't fit your narrative so you probably skipped over it.

---

Ignoring you? I don't have time to read the all of the 40-50 posts added to this thread daily.

I generally ignore you because you offer nothing interesting to this forum. I just occasionally respond to some of your stupid TDS-inspired nonsense.

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

caryking said:

---

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

I guess a lot of people here now like common core math because the math on these tariffs is so made up that it's impossible to believe that smart people think it works.

When you have to lie to get you point across, you aren't standing on solid policy ground. The last administration lied about the inflation reduction act. I guess we're all cool with that spending now.

---

Hokie, you're not this simple minded...

As every person in this Admin has said, we will need a new Tax and regulation system to allow for this to work. Please don't be so myopic...

---

Good thing we have competent professionals making a detailed implementation plan to transition us.

Oh no we're actually just gonna ask chatgpt what to Tariff and wave our hands that everything will work out while every economist says we're full of crap

---

You can not be so one dimensional to not see that the numbers are only there to start negotiations, right?

---

What negotiation? Trump wants to do this because he has had a dumb idea that trade between countries is a zero sum outcome. It's not!

They made up their reciprocal tariff formula that makes zero sense, and tried to pass it off as some sort of complicated calculation, which is a lie. Then on their tariff chart, they put up there an uninhabited island that has a great number of seals and penguins, who somehow are imposing tariffs on imported US goods. The tariff rate is the same for Brazil and Singapore, two countries that are on the opposite ends of the scale with respect to free trade. And a 17% tariff remains on Israel even though they reduced their tariffs to zero.

ITS MAGIC BEANS

All we are going to get is a huge consumption tax increase on goods and services, and a trade war, which has already started with China.

Now, we're celebrating "new" foreign investment in the US manufacturing sector (I say new, because most of it isn't, but hey, we lie about everything else) while penalizing actual US companies and we are high fiving each other!

We have violated every single trade agreement, even ones negotiated by the greatest negotiator in the history of the universe, and pissed off every single one of our allies.

We are penalizing Vietnam for having a trade deficit that WE created by encouraging other countries to divest manufacturing from China and move it to Vietnam.

And none of you can answer any of the why basic economic questions that I've asked over and over, hoping for an answer, but you can't. You want the entire country to be Michigan, where regulation and protectionism drove the auto industry INTO THE GROUND. So now that they've moved to better places in the US with out those regulations and protectionism, you want to penalize these companies for that. Incredible.

All this is going to do is slow the economy down and reduce competition which will drive up costs. We are turning the entire economy into one giant Jones Act.

I give Cary credit, at least he explains his reasoning, which I disagree with, but at least he has an ethos. The rest of you can't explain your way out of a paper bag so you just resort to insults and "its TDS". No its not TDS for me, I would love for this to work, but the US economy isn't the 1880s anymore.

So, I think I have a good case to be myopic.

---

He said last night, while taking questions, that they can be negotiated. We are by far the largest economy in the world. 50% larger than the closest economy. We have so much leverage. For other countries to grow they must trade with the largest economies, ours being the largest by miles!!!!

You keep saying there is going to be a tax meaning an increase in prices and that does not need to be the case. I keep telling you there are three pieces to a profit equation. You are focused on the wrong 2.

---

And you're burying your head in the sand and ignoring the many problems and contradictions in this policy.

Lutnick has been making the rounds, adamant that this is not a negotiation tactic. The tariffs are here to stay. They would have to be if Trump is planning for tariffs to replace other taxes. It can't be a negotiation tactic and meaningful revenue generator at the same time. Those are contradictory positions.

And throwing a temper tantrum is not a not a negotiation tactic. We are specifically not honoring previous negotiations, including deals that Trump himself negotiated. Trump is making the US into a lying, unreliable partner who cant be counted on.

---

Not at all burying my head in the sand. Just have experience in import/export, tariffs, etc... Many years working with manufacturing in China and the advantage they have with government supported industry.
This is not new.

I also am clever enough not to be blinded by Trumps approach (I personally do not like it, and full disclosure did not vote for him). You guys get trolled by him every day. He loves being dramatic. Its what he does.

I like using the leverage we have. And as a capitalist, markets will level to what the consumer is willing to pay and/or companies are willing to sell for.

There are 3 parts to a profit equation. Not one of you have mentioned the 3rd!!!!

---

And apparently you're not going to mention it, either. Very clever!

So we've talked about input costs being forced up by tariffs.
We've talked about prices going up to offset costs.
We've talked about profit going down instead to offset costs.

Ok, I'm on the edge of my seat. What's the 3rd (4th?) part of the profit equation?

---

Cost can be up from Tariffs. Or, a company can move their manufacturing other places... Prices don't have to go up and companies can allow them to affect their margin, as you stated. Additionally, China can subsidize these Chinese companies to offset the tariff and get passed along to the Brand. That all depends how interlocked the two are...

The other may one could be demand...

---

Why would a company move their manufacturing and expend capital when they are losing profits to invest in capital?

---

Go ask all the Chinese company's. That's exactly what they've done..

---

Chinese companies aren't a good example because the government is so heavily involved. How about US companies? Do they make capital investments when they are losing profit?

---

It all depends on their capital. Plenty of companies make capital investments, losing money…

Do you think there are more blue collar workers in manufacturing or construction?

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

I guess a lot of people here now like common core math because the math on these tariffs is so made up that it's impossible to believe that smart people think it works.

When you have to lie to get you point across, you aren't standing on solid policy ground. The last administration lied about the inflation reduction act. I guess we're all cool with that spending now.

---

Hokie, you're not this simple minded...

As every person in this Admin has said, we will need a new Tax and regulation system to allow for this to work. Please don't be so myopic...

---

Good thing we have competent professionals making a detailed implementation plan to transition us.

Oh no we're actually just gonna ask chatgpt what to Tariff and wave our hands that everything will work out while every economist says we're full of crap

---

You can not be so one dimensional to not see that the numbers are only there to start negotiations, right?

---

What negotiation? Trump wants to do this because he has had a dumb idea that trade between countries is a zero sum outcome. It's not!

They made up their reciprocal tariff formula that makes zero sense, and tried to pass it off as some sort of complicated calculation, which is a lie. Then on their tariff chart, they put up there an uninhabited island that has a great number of seals and penguins, who somehow are imposing tariffs on imported US goods. The tariff rate is the same for Brazil and Singapore, two countries that are on the opposite ends of the scale with respect to free trade. And a 17% tariff remains on Israel even though they reduced their tariffs to zero.

ITS MAGIC BEANS

All we are going to get is a huge consumption tax increase on goods and services, and a trade war, which has already started with China.

Now, we're celebrating "new" foreign investment in the US manufacturing sector (I say new, because most of it isn't, but hey, we lie about everything else) while penalizing actual US companies and we are high fiving each other!

We have violated every single trade agreement, even ones negotiated by the greatest negotiator in the history of the universe, and pissed off every single one of our allies.

We are penalizing Vietnam for having a trade deficit that WE created by encouraging other countries to divest manufacturing from China and move it to Vietnam.

And none of you can answer any of the why basic economic questions that I've asked over and over, hoping for an answer, but you can't. You want the entire country to be Michigan, where regulation and protectionism drove the auto industry INTO THE GROUND. So now that they've moved to better places in the US with out those regulations and protectionism, you want to penalize these companies for that. Incredible.

All this is going to do is slow the economy down and reduce competition which will drive up costs. We are turning the entire economy into one giant Jones Act.

I give Cary credit, at least he explains his reasoning, which I disagree with, but at least he has an ethos. The rest of you can't explain your way out of a paper bag so you just resort to insults and "its TDS". No its not TDS for me, I would love for this to work, but the US economy isn't the 1880s anymore.

So, I think I have a good case to be myopic.

---

He said last night, while taking questions, that they can be negotiated. We are by far the largest economy in the world. 50% larger than the closest economy. We have so much leverage. For other countries to grow they must trade with the largest economies, ours being the largest by miles!!!!

You keep saying there is going to be a tax meaning an increase in prices and that does not need to be the case. I keep telling you there are three pieces to a profit equation. You are focused on the wrong 2.

---

And you're burying your head in the sand and ignoring the many problems and contradictions in this policy.

Lutnick has been making the rounds, adamant that this is not a negotiation tactic. The tariffs are here to stay. They would have to be if Trump is planning for tariffs to replace other taxes. It can't be a negotiation tactic and meaningful revenue generator at the same time. Those are contradictory positions.

And throwing a temper tantrum is not a not a negotiation tactic. We are specifically not honoring previous negotiations, including deals that Trump himself negotiated. Trump is making the US into a lying, unreliable partner who cant be counted on.

---

Not at all burying my head in the sand. Just have experience in import/export, tariffs, etc... Many years working with manufacturing in China and the advantage they have with government supported industry.
This is not new.

I also am clever enough not to be blinded by Trumps approach (I personally do not like it, and full disclosure did not vote for him). You guys get trolled by him every day. He loves being dramatic. Its what he does.

I like using the leverage we have. And as a capitalist, markets will level to what the consumer is willing to pay and/or companies are willing to sell for.

There are 3 parts to a profit equation. Not one of you have mentioned the 3rd!!!!

---

And apparently you're not going to mention it, either. Very clever!

So we've talked about input costs being forced up by tariffs.
We've talked about prices going up to offset costs.
We've talked about profit going down instead to offset costs.

Ok, I'm on the edge of my seat. What's the 3rd (4th?) part of the profit equation?

---

Total cost. Prices should be market driven.

---

And protectionism reduces competition which generally leads to higher prices.

That's on top of raw materials, where the tariff directly raises prices even on domestic production

---

Again, prices should be market driven. Protectionism does not have to reduce competition in a non communist market.

---

Protectionism by definition lessens competition. It's more difficult to compete with the entire world than only other US companies. Less competition doesn't mean no competition, but less is a fact.

Cthepack said:

---

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

I guess a lot of people here now like common core math because the math on these tariffs is so made up that it's impossible to believe that smart people think it works.

When you have to lie to get you point across, you aren't standing on solid policy ground. The last administration lied about the inflation reduction act. I guess we're all cool with that spending now.

---

Hokie, you're not this simple minded...

As every person in this Admin has said, we will need a new Tax and regulation system to allow for this to work. Please don't be so myopic...

---

Good thing we have competent professionals making a detailed implementation plan to transition us.

Oh no we're actually just gonna ask chatgpt what to Tariff and wave our hands that everything will work out while every economist says we're full of crap

---

You can not be so one dimensional to not see that the numbers are only there to start negotiations, right?

---

What negotiation? Trump wants to do this because he has had a dumb idea that trade between countries is a zero sum outcome. It's not!

They made up their reciprocal tariff formula that makes zero sense, and tried to pass it off as some sort of complicated calculation, which is a lie. Then on their tariff chart, they put up there an uninhabited island that has a great number of seals and penguins, who somehow are imposing tariffs on imported US goods. The tariff rate is the same for Brazil and Singapore, two countries that are on the opposite ends of the scale with respect to free trade. And a 17% tariff remains on Israel even though they reduced their tariffs to zero.

ITS MAGIC BEANS

All we are going to get is a huge consumption tax increase on goods and services, and a trade war, which has already started with China.

Now, we're celebrating "new" foreign investment in the US manufacturing sector (I say new, because most of it isn't, but hey, we lie about everything else) while penalizing actual US companies and we are high fiving each other!

We have violated every single trade agreement, even ones negotiated by the greatest negotiator in the history of the universe, and pissed off every single one of our allies.

We are penalizing Vietnam for having a trade deficit that WE created by encouraging other countries to divest manufacturing from China and move it to Vietnam.

And none of you can answer any of the why basic economic questions that I've asked over and over, hoping for an answer, but you can't. You want the entire country to be Michigan, where regulation and protectionism drove the auto industry INTO THE GROUND. So now that they've moved to better places in the US with out those regulations and protectionism, you want to penalize these companies for that. Incredible.

All this is going to do is slow the economy down and reduce competition which will drive up costs. We are turning the entire economy into one giant Jones Act.

I give Cary credit, at least he explains his reasoning, which I disagree with, but at least he has an ethos. The rest of you can't explain your way out of a paper bag so you just resort to insults and "its TDS". No its not TDS for me, I would love for this to work, but the US economy isn't the 1880s anymore.

So, I think I have a good case to be myopic.

---

He said last night, while taking questions, that they can be negotiated. We are by far the largest economy in the world. 50% larger than the closest economy. We have so much leverage. For other countries to grow they must trade with the largest economies, ours being the largest by miles!!!!

You keep saying there is going to be a tax meaning an increase in prices and that does not need to be the case. I keep telling you there are three pieces to a profit equation. You are focused on the wrong 2.

---

And you're burying your head in the sand and ignoring the many problems and contradictions in this policy.

Lutnick has been making the rounds, adamant that this is not a negotiation tactic. The tariffs are here to stay. They would have to be if Trump is planning for tariffs to replace other taxes. It can't be a negotiation tactic and meaningful revenue generator at the same time. Those are contradictory positions.

And throwing a temper tantrum is not a not a negotiation tactic. We are specifically not honoring previous negotiations, including deals that Trump himself negotiated. Trump is making the US into a lying, unreliable partner who cant be counted on.

---

Not at all burying my head in the sand. Just have experience in import/export, tariffs, etc... Many years working with manufacturing in China and the advantage they have with government supported industry.
This is not new.

I also am clever enough not to be blinded by Trumps approach (I personally do not like it, and full disclosure did not vote for him). You guys get trolled by him every day. He loves being dramatic. Its what he does.

I like using the leverage we have. And as a capitalist, markets will level to what the consumer is willing to pay and/or companies are willing to sell for.

There are 3 parts to a profit equation. Not one of you have mentioned the 3rd!!!!

---

And apparently you're not going to mention it, either. Very clever!

So we've talked about input costs being forced up by tariffs.
We've talked about prices going up to offset costs.
We've talked about profit going down instead to offset costs.

Ok, I'm on the edge of my seat. What's the 3rd (4th?) part of the profit equation?

---

Total cost. Prices should be market driven.

---

And protectionism reduces competition which generally leads to higher prices.

That's on top of raw materials, where the tariff directly raises prices even on domestic production

---

Again, prices should be market driven. Protectionism does not have to reduce competition in a non communist market.

---

I'm struggling to follow your point. Either you don't raise the price and eat the extra costs (which then lowers employment, etc), OR you do raise the price which has several possible outcomes:

• Consumers shrug (or for some things have no choice) and pay the higher price. A new tax.
• Demand decreases, forcing you to lower the price back and eat the extra costs
• Demand decreases but you keep the higher price, hurting consumers and reducing your market share and forcing you to eat the extra costs anyway.

Which is the good scenario, again?

---

Why am I not surprised someone who does not understand the benefits of adjustable rate borrowing would not understand. You are making a bad assumption that the only thing you can do is around prices. Prices are again not controlled by the producer. The market dictates prices. The producer controls cost. That is your hint.

---

Oh that's right, you're the adjustable rate expert who got his butt handed to him by an ARM. And you made your money as a private equity vampire. I think I understand now where the disconnect is.

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

I guess a lot of people here now like common core math because the math on these tariffs is so made up that it's impossible to believe that smart people think it works.

When you have to lie to get you point across, you aren't standing on solid policy ground. The last administration lied about the inflation reduction act. I guess we're all cool with that spending now.

---

Hokie, you're not this simple minded...

As every person in this Admin has said, we will need a new Tax and regulation system to allow for this to work. Please don't be so myopic...

---

Good thing we have competent professionals making a detailed implementation plan to transition us.

Oh no we're actually just gonna ask chatgpt what to Tariff and wave our hands that everything will work out while every economist says we're full of crap

---

You can not be so one dimensional to not see that the numbers are only there to start negotiations, right?

---

What negotiation? Trump wants to do this because he has had a dumb idea that trade between countries is a zero sum outcome. It's not!

They made up their reciprocal tariff formula that makes zero sense, and tried to pass it off as some sort of complicated calculation, which is a lie. Then on their tariff chart, they put up there an uninhabited island that has a great number of seals and penguins, who somehow are imposing tariffs on imported US goods. The tariff rate is the same for Brazil and Singapore, two countries that are on the opposite ends of the scale with respect to free trade. And a 17% tariff remains on Israel even though they reduced their tariffs to zero.

ITS MAGIC BEANS

All we are going to get is a huge consumption tax increase on goods and services, and a trade war, which has already started with China.

Now, we're celebrating "new" foreign investment in the US manufacturing sector (I say new, because most of it isn't, but hey, we lie about everything else) while penalizing actual US companies and we are high fiving each other!

We have violated every single trade agreement, even ones negotiated by the greatest negotiator in the history of the universe, and pissed off every single one of our allies.

We are penalizing Vietnam for having a trade deficit that WE created by encouraging other countries to divest manufacturing from China and move it to Vietnam.

And none of you can answer any of the why basic economic questions that I've asked over and over, hoping for an answer, but you can't. You want the entire country to be Michigan, where regulation and protectionism drove the auto industry INTO THE GROUND. So now that they've moved to better places in the US with out those regulations and protectionism, you want to penalize these companies for that. Incredible.

All this is going to do is slow the economy down and reduce competition which will drive up costs. We are turning the entire economy into one giant Jones Act.

I give Cary credit, at least he explains his reasoning, which I disagree with, but at least he has an ethos. The rest of you can't explain your way out of a paper bag so you just resort to insults and "its TDS". No its not TDS for me, I would love for this to work, but the US economy isn't the 1880s anymore.

So, I think I have a good case to be myopic.

---

He said last night, while taking questions, that they can be negotiated. We are by far the largest economy in the world. 50% larger than the closest economy. We have so much leverage. For other countries to grow they must trade with the largest economies, ours being the largest by miles!!!!

You keep saying there is going to be a tax meaning an increase in prices and that does not need to be the case. I keep telling you there are three pieces to a profit equation. You are focused on the wrong 2.

---

And you're burying your head in the sand and ignoring the many problems and contradictions in this policy.

Lutnick has been making the rounds, adamant that this is not a negotiation tactic. The tariffs are here to stay. They would have to be if Trump is planning for tariffs to replace other taxes. It can't be a negotiation tactic and meaningful revenue generator at the same time. Those are contradictory positions.

And throwing a temper tantrum is not a not a negotiation tactic. We are specifically not honoring previous negotiations, including deals that Trump himself negotiated. Trump is making the US into a lying, unreliable partner who cant be counted on.

---

Not at all burying my head in the sand. Just have experience in import/export, tariffs, etc... Many years working with manufacturing in China and the advantage they have with government supported industry.
This is not new.

I also am clever enough not to be blinded by Trumps approach (I personally do not like it, and full disclosure did not vote for him). You guys get trolled by him every day. He loves being dramatic. Its what he does.

I like using the leverage we have. And as a capitalist, markets will level to what the consumer is willing to pay and/or companies are willing to sell for.

There are 3 parts to a profit equation. Not one of you have mentioned the 3rd!!!!

---

And apparently you're not going to mention it, either. Very clever!

So we've talked about input costs being forced up by tariffs.
We've talked about prices going up to offset costs.
We've talked about profit going down instead to offset costs.

Ok, I'm on the edge of my seat. What's the 3rd (4th?) part of the profit equation?

---

Total cost. Prices should be market driven.

---

And protectionism reduces competition which generally leads to higher prices.

That's on top of raw materials, where the tariff directly raises prices even on domestic production

---

Again, prices should be market driven. Protectionism does not have to reduce competition in a non communist market.

---

Protectionism by definition lessens competition. It's more difficult to compete with the entire world than only other US companies. Less competition doesn't mean no competition, but less is a fact.

---

The US economy is 50% larger than the next economy. Protectionism in the world's largest economy may actually promote more competition in the US.

SmaptyWolf said:

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Cthepack said:

---

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

I guess a lot of people here now like common core math because the math on these tariffs is so made up that it's impossible to believe that smart people think it works.

When you have to lie to get you point across, you aren't standing on solid policy ground. The last administration lied about the inflation reduction act. I guess we're all cool with that spending now.

---

Hokie, you're not this simple minded...

As every person in this Admin has said, we will need a new Tax and regulation system to allow for this to work. Please don't be so myopic...

---

Good thing we have competent professionals making a detailed implementation plan to transition us.

Oh no we're actually just gonna ask chatgpt what to Tariff and wave our hands that everything will work out while every economist says we're full of crap

---

You can not be so one dimensional to not see that the numbers are only there to start negotiations, right?

---

What negotiation? Trump wants to do this because he has had a dumb idea that trade between countries is a zero sum outcome. It's not!

They made up their reciprocal tariff formula that makes zero sense, and tried to pass it off as some sort of complicated calculation, which is a lie. Then on their tariff chart, they put up there an uninhabited island that has a great number of seals and penguins, who somehow are imposing tariffs on imported US goods. The tariff rate is the same for Brazil and Singapore, two countries that are on the opposite ends of the scale with respect to free trade. And a 17% tariff remains on Israel even though they reduced their tariffs to zero.

ITS MAGIC BEANS

All we are going to get is a huge consumption tax increase on goods and services, and a trade war, which has already started with China.

Now, we're celebrating "new" foreign investment in the US manufacturing sector (I say new, because most of it isn't, but hey, we lie about everything else) while penalizing actual US companies and we are high fiving each other!

We have violated every single trade agreement, even ones negotiated by the greatest negotiator in the history of the universe, and pissed off every single one of our allies.

We are penalizing Vietnam for having a trade deficit that WE created by encouraging other countries to divest manufacturing from China and move it to Vietnam.

And none of you can answer any of the why basic economic questions that I've asked over and over, hoping for an answer, but you can't. You want the entire country to be Michigan, where regulation and protectionism drove the auto industry INTO THE GROUND. So now that they've moved to better places in the US with out those regulations and protectionism, you want to penalize these companies for that. Incredible.

All this is going to do is slow the economy down and reduce competition which will drive up costs. We are turning the entire economy into one giant Jones Act.

I give Cary credit, at least he explains his reasoning, which I disagree with, but at least he has an ethos. The rest of you can't explain your way out of a paper bag so you just resort to insults and "its TDS". No its not TDS for me, I would love for this to work, but the US economy isn't the 1880s anymore.

So, I think I have a good case to be myopic.

---

He said last night, while taking questions, that they can be negotiated. We are by far the largest economy in the world. 50% larger than the closest economy. We have so much leverage. For other countries to grow they must trade with the largest economies, ours being the largest by miles!!!!

You keep saying there is going to be a tax meaning an increase in prices and that does not need to be the case. I keep telling you there are three pieces to a profit equation. You are focused on the wrong 2.

---

And you're burying your head in the sand and ignoring the many problems and contradictions in this policy.

Lutnick has been making the rounds, adamant that this is not a negotiation tactic. The tariffs are here to stay. They would have to be if Trump is planning for tariffs to replace other taxes. It can't be a negotiation tactic and meaningful revenue generator at the same time. Those are contradictory positions.

And throwing a temper tantrum is not a not a negotiation tactic. We are specifically not honoring previous negotiations, including deals that Trump himself negotiated. Trump is making the US into a lying, unreliable partner who cant be counted on.

---

Not at all burying my head in the sand. Just have experience in import/export, tariffs, etc... Many years working with manufacturing in China and the advantage they have with government supported industry.
This is not new.

I also am clever enough not to be blinded by Trumps approach (I personally do not like it, and full disclosure did not vote for him). You guys get trolled by him every day. He loves being dramatic. Its what he does.

I like using the leverage we have. And as a capitalist, markets will level to what the consumer is willing to pay and/or companies are willing to sell for.

There are 3 parts to a profit equation. Not one of you have mentioned the 3rd!!!!

---

And apparently you're not going to mention it, either. Very clever!

So we've talked about input costs being forced up by tariffs.
We've talked about prices going up to offset costs.
We've talked about profit going down instead to offset costs.

Ok, I'm on the edge of my seat. What's the 3rd (4th?) part of the profit equation?

---

Total cost. Prices should be market driven.

---

And protectionism reduces competition which generally leads to higher prices.

That's on top of raw materials, where the tariff directly raises prices even on domestic production

---

Again, prices should be market driven. Protectionism does not have to reduce competition in a non communist market.

---

I'm struggling to follow your point. Either you don't raise the price and eat the extra costs (which then lowers employment, etc), OR you do raise the price which has several possible outcomes:

• Consumers shrug (or for some things have no choice) and pay the higher price. A new tax.
• Demand decreases, forcing you to lower the price back and eat the extra costs
• Demand decreases but you keep the higher price, hurting consumers and reducing your market share and forcing you to eat the extra costs anyway.

Which is the good scenario, again?

---

Why am I not surprised someone who does not understand the benefits of adjustable rate borrowing would not understand. You are making a bad assumption that the only thing you can do is around prices. Prices are again not controlled by the producer. The market dictates prices. The producer controls cost. That is your hint.

---

Oh that's right, you're the adjustable rate expert who got his butt handed to him by an ARM. And you made your money as a private equity vampire. I think I understand now where the disconnect is.

---

I own two businesses, one I do work with PEs, the other is a rental property business. As I told you before I was not having my butt handed to me, I would just have made more money on an already successful rental property.

So you do understand why your assumption was wrong? To be successful you need to understand basic economics. First being the market sets the price (supply and demand stuff). Not the cost that is required to produce the product or provide the service.

Cthepack said:

---

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

SmaptyWolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

I guess a lot of people here now like common core math because the math on these tariffs is so made up that it's impossible to believe that smart people think it works.

When you have to lie to get you point across, you aren't standing on solid policy ground. The last administration lied about the inflation reduction act. I guess we're all cool with that spending now.

---

Hokie, you're not this simple minded...

As every person in this Admin has said, we will need a new Tax and regulation system to allow for this to work. Please don't be so myopic...

---

Good thing we have competent professionals making a detailed implementation plan to transition us.

Oh no we're actually just gonna ask chatgpt what to Tariff and wave our hands that everything will work out while every economist says we're full of crap

---

You can not be so one dimensional to not see that the numbers are only there to start negotiations, right?

---

What negotiation? Trump wants to do this because he has had a dumb idea that trade between countries is a zero sum outcome. It's not!

They made up their reciprocal tariff formula that makes zero sense, and tried to pass it off as some sort of complicated calculation, which is a lie. Then on their tariff chart, they put up there an uninhabited island that has a great number of seals and penguins, who somehow are imposing tariffs on imported US goods. The tariff rate is the same for Brazil and Singapore, two countries that are on the opposite ends of the scale with respect to free trade. And a 17% tariff remains on Israel even though they reduced their tariffs to zero.

ITS MAGIC BEANS

All we are going to get is a huge consumption tax increase on goods and services, and a trade war, which has already started with China.

Now, we're celebrating "new" foreign investment in the US manufacturing sector (I say new, because most of it isn't, but hey, we lie about everything else) while penalizing actual US companies and we are high fiving each other!

We have violated every single trade agreement, even ones negotiated by the greatest negotiator in the history of the universe, and pissed off every single one of our allies.

We are penalizing Vietnam for having a trade deficit that WE created by encouraging other countries to divest manufacturing from China and move it to Vietnam.

And none of you can answer any of the why basic economic questions that I've asked over and over, hoping for an answer, but you can't. You want the entire country to be Michigan, where regulation and protectionism drove the auto industry INTO THE GROUND. So now that they've moved to better places in the US with out those regulations and protectionism, you want to penalize these companies for that. Incredible.

All this is going to do is slow the economy down and reduce competition which will drive up costs. We are turning the entire economy into one giant Jones Act.

I give Cary credit, at least he explains his reasoning, which I disagree with, but at least he has an ethos. The rest of you can't explain your way out of a paper bag so you just resort to insults and "its TDS". No its not TDS for me, I would love for this to work, but the US economy isn't the 1880s anymore.

So, I think I have a good case to be myopic.

---

He said last night, while taking questions, that they can be negotiated. We are by far the largest economy in the world. 50% larger than the closest economy. We have so much leverage. For other countries to grow they must trade with the largest economies, ours being the largest by miles!!!!

You keep saying there is going to be a tax meaning an increase in prices and that does not need to be the case. I keep telling you there are three pieces to a profit equation. You are focused on the wrong 2.

---

And you're burying your head in the sand and ignoring the many problems and contradictions in this policy.

Lutnick has been making the rounds, adamant that this is not a negotiation tactic. The tariffs are here to stay. They would have to be if Trump is planning for tariffs to replace other taxes. It can't be a negotiation tactic and meaningful revenue generator at the same time. Those are contradictory positions.

And throwing a temper tantrum is not a not a negotiation tactic. We are specifically not honoring previous negotiations, including deals that Trump himself negotiated. Trump is making the US into a lying, unreliable partner who cant be counted on.

---

Not at all burying my head in the sand. Just have experience in import/export, tariffs, etc... Many years working with manufacturing in China and the advantage they have with government supported industry.
This is not new.

I also am clever enough not to be blinded by Trumps approach (I personally do not like it, and full disclosure did not vote for him). You guys get trolled by him every day. He loves being dramatic. Its what he does.

I like using the leverage we have. And as a capitalist, markets will level to what the consumer is willing to pay and/or companies are willing to sell for.

There are 3 parts to a profit equation. Not one of you have mentioned the 3rd!!!!

---

And apparently you're not going to mention it, either. Very clever!

So we've talked about input costs being forced up by tariffs.
We've talked about prices going up to offset costs.
We've talked about profit going down instead to offset costs.

Ok, I'm on the edge of my seat. What's the 3rd (4th?) part of the profit equation?

---

Total cost. Prices should be market driven.

---

And protectionism reduces competition which generally leads to higher prices.

That's on top of raw materials, where the tariff directly raises prices even on domestic production

---

Again, prices should be market driven. Protectionism does not have to reduce competition in a non communist market.

---

I'm struggling to follow your point. Either you don't raise the price and eat the extra costs (which then lowers employment, etc), OR you do raise the price which has several possible outcomes:

• Consumers shrug (or for some things have no choice) and pay the higher price. A new tax.
• Demand decreases, forcing you to lower the price back and eat the extra costs
• Demand decreases but you keep the higher price, hurting consumers and reducing your market share and forcing you to eat the extra costs anyway.

Which is the good scenario, again?

---

Why am I not surprised someone who does not understand the benefits of adjustable rate borrowing would not understand. You are making a bad assumption that the only thing you can do is around prices. Prices are again not controlled by the producer. The market dictates prices. The producer controls cost. That is your hint.

---

Oh that's right, you're the adjustable rate expert who got his butt handed to him by an ARM. And you made your money as a private equity vampire. I think I understand now where the disconnect is.

---

I own two businesses, one I do work with PEs, the other is a rental property business. As I told you before I was not having my butt handed to me, I would just have made more money on an already successful rental property.

So you do understand why your assumption was wrong? To be successful you need to understand basic economics. First being the market sets the price (supply and demand stuff). Not the cost that is required to produce the product or provide the service.

---

You're lost in some semantic nonsense. Companies set their own prices and then adjust them based on market demand. But you're laboring under this private equity fantasy that there's always a way to cut costs, ignoring that many of those ways end up imploding the company (a win/win for private equity).

hokiewolf said:

---

Do you think there are more blue collar workers in manufacturing or construction?

---

Hokie, I'm not sure why you are asking that question. Who cares? Just go look at a UAW worker and tell me what kind of person you see…

caryking said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Do you think there are more blue collar workers in manufacturing or construction?

---

Hokie, I'm not sure why you are asking that question. Who cares? Just go look at a UAW worker and tell me what kind of person you see…

---

I see someone who has been a protected class for years at the detriment to the industry he works in. Not his fault, he probably was bamboozled into thinking he'd get a great pension.

My point being, construction(service jobs) are more highly paid and more highly entrepreneurial (many small businesses make up the construction industry)than large manufacturing jobs. We are now putting all of that in jeopardy for a modest gain in manufacturing in the US.

Seems like a great trade off, considering that I do not think the nostalgia of the autoworkers of the 50s and 60s will ever come back. But guess what, that's ok because those jobs have been replaced in other areas of the US.

Instead of trying to figure out what the new economy should be in the rust belt, we go to nostalgia well that dried up a long time ago. Same goes for the steel industry. And we risk the entire economy to do it. Seems like checkers.