I'm sure some of you are as sick of "political debates" as I am.....and I know we have some construction / engineering folks here.....so how in the world does this happen?

LIVE UPDATES: Miami building collapse death toll rises to 4; at least 159 people still missing (foxnews.com)

Looks like a scene in Beirut, not south Florida.

*I was shocked early on when they were talking about only 50 people or so missing....sad to see, but feels inevitable that many more would have been missing from that after seeing how much of the building was impacted and the time of day.

So I read that this building had been sinking 2mm a year since the 90s. I would assume that that would create cracking that could potentially expose reinforcement or post tensioning strands to corrosion. The video showed such a catastrophic failure I'm really interested to see how this building was designed structurally

hokiewolf said:

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So I read that this building had been sinking 2mm a year since the 90s. I would assume that that would create cracking that could potentially expose reinforcement or post tensioning strands to corrosion. The video showed such a catastrophic failure I'm really interested to see how this building was designed structurally

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Interesting....what is a normal sink rate for high-rise buildings on an Atlantic coastline (I think of all thsoe places along the Grand Strand).

Florida has lots of problems with massive sink holes. I've seen news specials reporting on houses and cars getting swallowed when surfaces suddenly collapse.

Huge tragedy. Lots of questions that will need to be answered. Structures like that don't normally fall down out of nowhere. I can't think of anything like this ever happening in my lifetime. Prayers for those involved.

PackFansXL said:

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Florida has lots of problems with massive sink holes. I've seen news specials reporting on houses and cars getting swallowed when surfaces suddenly collapse.

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I always assumed those locations were inland a bit more? IE, not on the sandy soil right at the ocean's side where this building was?

And I'd think a sudden hole would be pretty easy to detect (though maybe right now, the focus is, rightly just on finding survivors)?

I posted this in the "weird news" thread last night before this thread was created. Wanted to add it here now...

They are not telling us what caused the collapse, but this eyewitness has some VERY interesting info. He says he felt the ground shake accompanied by a very loud sound that sounded "like thunder", then it happened again about 30 seconds to a minute later, with another ground shake and even louder sound that sounded like thunder.

From videos of the collapse, this building collapsed in about 10 seconds.

This indicates to me that something (possibly explosives) shook the ground prior to the collapse. The second ground shake and sound may have been when the building collapsed (possibly also triggered by explosives). So maybe two explosions...the first weakening the structure, then another 30-60 seconds later.

Lol

hokiewolf said:

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Lol

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Not an argument. Explain how the ground shakes with a very loud sound two times, a minute apart.

GuerrillaPack said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Lol

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Not an argument. Explain how the ground shakes with a very loud sound two times, a minute apart.

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A building had a catastrophic structural failure and fell down. If you've ever heard a Post Tension strand let go, it can sound like a crack of thunder

hokiewolf said:

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GuerrillaPack said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Lol

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Not an argument. Explain how the ground shakes with a very loud sound two times, a minute apart.

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A building had a catastrophic structural failure and fell down. If you've ever heard a Post Tension strand let go, it can sound like a crack of thunder

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So you already know for sure what caused this collapse, when even the "authorities" are still investigating and haven't said what the cause is.

The building collapsed in about 10 second or less. So what caused the first ground shake and loud thundering sound, 30-60 second before the collapse? I highly doubt that some rebar or tension strands popping could cause the ground to shake.

GuerrillaPack said:

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hokiewolf said:

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GuerrillaPack said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Lol

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Not an argument. Explain how the ground shakes with a very loud sound two times, a minute apart.

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A building had a catastrophic structural failure and fell down. If you've ever heard a Post Tension strand let go, it can sound like a crack of thunder

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So you already know for sure what caused this collapse, when even the "authorities" are still investigating and haven't said what the cause is.

The building collapsed in about 10 second or less. So what caused the first ground shake and loud thundering sound, 30-60 second before the collapse? I highly doubt that some rebar or tension strands popping could cause the ground to shake.

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lol it was same guys that detonated building 7....

I'll have to say it does look very suspicious. But... I have a very in depth knowledge of concrete, rebar, structural concrete etc....

If this building had been sinking like the reports are saying and there were parts of the rebar that were exposed to the humidity and salt air over a period of time then it is 100% plausible that you had rebar that eroded over time, weakened and caused the collapse.

Now.... the next question is how often was that building inspected. There would have been visible cracks that should have been noticed and addressed. This didn't happen over night. I would say given the environment, if the exposure was direct,(meaning the rebar was exposed to "open air" conditions") it could have taken less than 5 years for the rebar to erode to the point of failure. Especially if it were in the lower areas of the building which would cause that collapsing effect.

Now..... I'll take this turn to let everyone know I plan on keeping politics out of this. BUT... let me be the first one to tell everyone on here if you don' think the lefties in Florida and D.C. are already on planning an all out assault on Governor DeSantis on this you are a hell of a lot dumber than you appear to me.

Sit back and watch which side turns this political first. They know Governor DeSantis is most likely going to be President in 2024 so they have to do all they can in order to demolish his reputation before then.

Prove me wrong and I'll gladly leave this board forever. This will happen in the next 2-3 weeks if not sooner.

"never let a good crisis go to waste....." - Ice Cream Queen - April, 2020 - when commenting on Covid 19 and how it had become political.

I would also say the fact that the ocean side is the side that collapse also leads credence to this theory

hokiewolf said:

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I would also say the fact that the ocean side is the side that collapse also leads credence to this theory

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Very much so. The oxidation with the exposed iron, and I would guarantee you that they didn't use the coated rebar that is starting to be required for construction in many places now. It's extremely more expensive but after what happened in Charlotte 20 years ago or so it is money well spent. And I am referring to the pedestrian walkway collapse at the Speedway for those who may not remember or have knowledge of that incident.

^, ^^, So if this type of corrosion of rebar was a primary fail point....that would seemingly point to a complete miss in the inspections process? Based on these descriptions, not sure how something like this would not be somewhat evidencable?

I know we see inspections of elevators all the time (with certifications!), but do large buildings have requirements for on-site visual inspections, once they pass all the initial ones for construction process?

**I realize all of this is speculative at this point, so no reason to get wrapped around the axle arguing it, but as I thougth about why an inspection wouldn't find this, it struck me that I don't even know if those are required or not?

I saw there was some reports of water flooding in the underground garage over the weekend and potentially prior to the collapse. One of the pictures I have seen could support the garage collapsing and a potential sinkhole opening up (especially considering construction nearby). With that being said, it will take months to figure out a potential cause

engineercoach said:

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I saw there was some reports of water flooding in the underground garage over the weekend and potentially prior to the collapse. One of the pictures I have seen could support the garage collapsing and a potential sinkhole opening up (especially considering construction nearby). With that being said, it will take months to figure out a potential cause

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This is absolutely a possibility. Especially if the construction site was not following proper trench shoring. That is a HUGE problem in many areas that don't have competent inspectors or those who are "sailing" through due to political appointment. i.e. Raleigh NC is NOTORIOUS for giving inspector jobs to cronies of the local politicians. All they have to do is take a lame course and they are an inspector. Most of these "courses" are taught be employees of the trench companies. It's a city job or a county job. Very rarely do you have a "real" State Inspector come out to a generic jobsite.

The last "real" inspector I encountered was late 2006 - early 2007 at the new Terminal at RDU. those guys had their own jobsite trailer and there were 4 of them on site. Every. Single. Day.

That's not the norm. I would hope the same isn't happening in Miami but judging from the way their local government has been run historically I can almost guarantee you there wasn't much along the lines of inspecting at the jobsite or the complex that collapsed. Structural damage of that would cause a collapse would be visible to the naked eye easily.

If a sink hole was the cause it will be more difficult to prove on the construction site because if there was an inkling of a possibility of that being the cause they shored up any and all areas of concern 10 minutes after they saw the building collapse.

Of course there will be investigations of both of those possibilities but ultimately you have leadership in place there that is...well.... you know.

this was a bigger building than I thought. wow.

Can't imagine being family members right now. This must be tortuous to sit around unable to do anything to help, knowing each passing hour is making it less likely.

There definitely seem to have been indications in 2018 that something was wrong according to that structural engineering inspection being reported. No mention of imminent failure, apparently, but mention of an exponential increase in degradation if the waterproofing wasn't repaired quickly. "Exponential" isn't an adjective you like to see applied to anything tied to failure! Rebar corrosion would seem to be high on the list of causes or contributing factors.

As a side note, I'm not a civil engineer but reinforced concrete has always seemed kind of amazing to me. It only works because steel and concrete just happen to have nearly identical rates of thermal expansion. It's one of those seemingly minor discoveries that have had such a huge impact on society.

dogplasma said:

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There definitely seem to have been indications in 2018 that something was wrong according to that structural engineering inspection being reported. No mention of imminent failure, apparently, but mention of an exponential increase in degradation if the waterproofing wasn't repaired quickly. "Exponential" isn't an adjective you like to see applied to anything tied to failure! Rebar corrosion would seem to be high on the list of causes or contributing factors.

As a side note, I'm not a civil engineer but reinforced concrete has always seemed kind of amazing to me. It only works because steel and concrete just happen to have nearly identical rates of thermal expansion. It's one of those seemingly minor discoveries that have had such a huge impact on society.

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Seems like from articles being published now on Fox/CNN (I still can't paste here, for some reason), there was some fairly evident structural problems with this building.

Tragic...but also makes me wonder -- all those other high rise condos / buildings up and down the Miami area-cost.....many are likely in the same age range, wonder if any of those are having similar issues? Or was this limited due to specific issues with how this one was constructed?

I have read dozens of articles the last two days about this. I saw one, don't have time to post find it this a.m., that said the "sister" condo building has already been found to have "major structural cracks" in the pylons. I'd be moving the hell out ASAP.

This will fall on the local city government. The local officials that are in charge of building inspections, like I have said before, are usually appointed as "political" positions.

Could care less what anyone thinks but this will become a political mudslinging ****show before it is all said and done because Governor DeSantis is looking more and more Presidential by the day and the lefties know it. The MSM propaganda machine is already looking for ways to link this to him to submarine his political future. So far he is handling it a hell of a lot better than "NO SHOW" Sleepy Joe.

It's horrible tragedy that quite possibly could have been prevented. There are also reports that engineers, residents etc.. had filed complaints and nothing was done. The property owners or whoever is in charge of the maintenance of the building should be leaving for another country any second now.

I guess we'll learn more over weeks and months. Probably nothing for certain until the debris is cleared and they can inspect the foundation.

If there's a trial of some kind in the future, which seems likely, I'm sure everything will be on full display then. I don't know who owns the building, but if inspectors found problems and the owners failed to act, it would be on the owner, right? Although I'm sure it will be argued that the inspectors didn't import an adequate sense of urgency. Anyway, all speculation at this point. Chances are this will be a combination of factors that all aligned in a bad way, like is often the case with major failures.

BBW, didn't you say, " Now..... I'll take this turn to let everyone know I plan on keeping politics out of this."? Lol.

Quote:

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Now..... I'll take this turn to let everyone know I plan on keeping politics out of this. BUT... let me be the first one to tell everyone on here if you don' think the lefties in Florida and D.C. are already on planning an all out assault on Governor DeSantis on this you are a hell of a lot dumber than you appear to me.

Sit back and watch which side turns this political first. They know Governor DeSantis is most likely going to be President in 2024 so they have to do all they can in order to demolish his reputation before then.

Prove me wrong and I'll gladly leave this board forever. This will happen in the next 2-3 weeks if not sooner.

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I posted that FOUR DAYS AGO...... You lefties really never fail to step on your own Richards..... Your MSM propaganda machine really is setting you up for a wonderful 2022 midterm election.

Blatant lies, falsified stories and selectively edited "news" may captivate and make you warm in your special places but people with common sense and half a brain will not be fooled and led around blindly like sheep. Even though you and your comrades live for it, most Americans don't and won't accept the takeover of this country.

This is missing important context, @hannahdreier never asked me for comment. emergency response started within minutes of the disaster led by Miami Dade County, amazing first responders. county mayor signed local emergency dec 4:40 & @GovRonDeSantis signed eo less than 1hr later https://t.co/3YkkumZDCC

— Christina Pushaw (@ChristinaPushaw) June 27, 2021

What is important is that the Governor can't sign any emergency e.o. until the local government declares and issues their own. It's how government works. Funny how the "journalist" failed to mention that and framed it as if Governor DeSantis was at fault or didn't do his job.

What a damn joke. Good job lefties!! Keep it up comrades. You'll get what you deserve in the next few years.

dogplasma said:

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I guess we'll learn more over weeks and months. Probably nothing for certain until the debris is cleared and they can inspect the foundation.

If there's a trial of some kind in the future, which seems likely, I'm sure everything will be on full display then. I don't know who owns the building, but if inspectors found problems and the owners failed to act, it would be on the owner, right? Although I'm sure it will be argued that the inspectors didn't import an adequate sense of urgency. Anyway, all speculation at this point. Chances are this will be a combination of factors that all aligned in a bad way, like is often the case with major failures.

BBW, didn't you say, " Now..... I'll take this turn to let everyone know I plan on keeping politics out of this."? Lol.

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Yeah, I don't know how these condo buildings work....is the HOA ultimately responsible to drive repairs? There was a CNN article yesterday that said the owners had just been assessed from 80k to 300k depending on their floor plan, to improve conditions in the building....though I didn't necessarily see these specific structural issues on the list of things they were correcting (could have been, just not clearly stated).

So if, 30 years later, some inspector finds that the builder did a crappy job, and the place is growing unstable....does the HOA have to negotiate to find repairs (plus try to sue the developer to repair, etc)? If so, I can see how those types of things would lag on for years and / or never get done.

And yep....to you point -- most of these types of catastrophes turn out not to be a single issue, but a chain of them that occur that ultimately lead to the disaster.

Packchem91 said:

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dogplasma said:

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I guess we'll learn more over weeks and months. Probably nothing for certain until the debris is cleared and they can inspect the foundation.

If there's a trial of some kind in the future, which seems likely, I'm sure everything will be on full display then. I don't know who owns the building, but if inspectors found problems and the owners failed to act, it would be on the owner, right? Although I'm sure it will be argued that the inspectors didn't import an adequate sense of urgency. Anyway, all speculation at this point. Chances are this will be a combination of factors that all aligned in a bad way, like is often the case with major failures.

BBW, didn't you say, " Now..... I'll take this turn to let everyone know I plan on keeping politics out of this."? Lol.

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Yeah, I don't know how these condo buildings work....is the HOA ultimately responsible to drive repairs? There was a CNN article yesterday that said the owners had just been assessed from 80k to 300k depending on their floor plan, to improve conditions in the building....though I didn't necessarily see these specific structural issues on the list of things they were correcting (could have been, just not clearly stated).

So if, 30 years later, some inspector finds that the builder did a crappy job, and the place is growing unstable....does the HOA have to negotiate to find repairs (plus try to sue the developer to repair, etc)? If so, I can see how those types of things would lag on for years and / or never get done.

And yep....to you point -- most of these types of catastrophes turn out not to be a single issue, but a chain of them that occur that ultimately lead to the disaster.

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Yep you nailed it.

These repairs are the COA's legal and financial responsibility, and COA's are chronically underfunded. Maintaining adequate reserves is key, as is determining the solvency and management proficiency of any condo building you're considering buying into before you stroke that big due diligence check.

Municipalities and their building inspectors put all virtually all structural matters of consequence back on the building/COA and their engineers. Inspectors and inspections departments do not have the staff, training or expertise to discover or adjudicate complicated structural matters; they are generalists tasked with making sure **** doesn't get way off the rails or there aren't obvious defects. Their main role is to make sure the COA's and their engineers are fulfilling their responsibilities.

This tragic situation in Florida looks like the inspecting engineers did their jobs and identified very serious structural maintenance and integrity issues. What's less clear is why the COA didn't act on them timely (and what role if any the inspections department played in not requiring that they do so).

Civilized said:

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Packchem91 said:

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dogplasma said:

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I guess we'll learn more over weeks and months. Probably nothing for certain until the debris is cleared and they can inspect the foundation.

If there's a trial of some kind in the future, which seems likely, I'm sure everything will be on full display then. I don't know who owns the building, but if inspectors found problems and the owners failed to act, it would be on the owner, right? Although I'm sure it will be argued that the inspectors didn't import an adequate sense of urgency. Anyway, all speculation at this point. Chances are this will be a combination of factors that all aligned in a bad way, like is often the case with major failures.

BBW, didn't you say, " Now..... I'll take this turn to let everyone know I plan on keeping politics out of this."? Lol.

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Yeah, I don't know how these condo buildings work....is the HOA ultimately responsible to drive repairs? There was a CNN article yesterday that said the owners had just been assessed from 80k to 300k depending on their floor plan, to improve conditions in the building....though I didn't necessarily see these specific structural issues on the list of things they were correcting (could have been, just not clearly stated).

So if, 30 years later, some inspector finds that the builder did a crappy job, and the place is growing unstable....does the HOA have to negotiate to find repairs (plus try to sue the developer to repair, etc)? If so, I can see how those types of things would lag on for years and / or never get done.

And yep....to you point -- most of these types of catastrophes turn out not to be a single issue, but a chain of them that occur that ultimately lead to the disaster.

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Yep you nailed it.

These repairs are the COA's legal and financial responsibility, and COA's are chronically underfunded. Maintaining adequate reserves is key, as is determining the solvency and management proficiency of any condo building you're considering buying into before you stroke that big due diligence check.

Municipalities and their building inspectors put all virtually all structural matters of consequence back on the building/COA and their engineers. Inspectors and inspections departments do not have the staff, training or expertise to discover or adjudicate complicated structural matters; they are generalists tasked with making sure **** doesn't get way off the rails or there aren't obvious defects. Their main role is to make sure the COA's and their engineers are fulfilling their responsibilities.

This tragic situation in Florida looks like the inspecting engineers did their jobs and identified very serious structural maintenance and integrity issues. What's less clear is why the COA didn't act on them timely (and what role if any the inspections department played in not requiring that they do so).

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Thanks, an interesting read. Regarding your last statement, the one thing that jumps to my mind about why the COA didn't act more timely would be..."impact of costs" against risks? I mean, what is the last time a building collapsed? They have to be safe, right...look at the hundreds/thousands just along the SFL coast (not to mention Carolinas, etc).
Versus.....we already have to invest in many other repairs / beautification projects that are going to cost tens of K in assessments....we can put this other off (because buildings don't fall).

Plus, trying to put myself in their shoes, I'd think the actual members / owners of each unit, would be screaming bloody murder about finding someone else to sue and own the $$$ for fixing the issue, instead of ever actually moving forward with it??

Packchem91 said:

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Civilized said:

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Packchem91 said:

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dogplasma said:

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I guess we'll learn more over weeks and months. Probably nothing for certain until the debris is cleared and they can inspect the foundation.

If there's a trial of some kind in the future, which seems likely, I'm sure everything will be on full display then. I don't know who owns the building, but if inspectors found problems and the owners failed to act, it would be on the owner, right? Although I'm sure it will be argued that the inspectors didn't import an adequate sense of urgency. Anyway, all speculation at this point. Chances are this will be a combination of factors that all aligned in a bad way, like is often the case with major failures.

BBW, didn't you say, " Now..... I'll take this turn to let everyone know I plan on keeping politics out of this."? Lol.

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Yeah, I don't know how these condo buildings work....is the HOA ultimately responsible to drive repairs? There was a CNN article yesterday that said the owners had just been assessed from 80k to 300k depending on their floor plan, to improve conditions in the building....though I didn't necessarily see these specific structural issues on the list of things they were correcting (could have been, just not clearly stated).

So if, 30 years later, some inspector finds that the builder did a crappy job, and the place is growing unstable....does the HOA have to negotiate to find repairs (plus try to sue the developer to repair, etc)? If so, I can see how those types of things would lag on for years and / or never get done.

And yep....to you point -- most of these types of catastrophes turn out not to be a single issue, but a chain of them that occur that ultimately lead to the disaster.

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Yep you nailed it.

These repairs are the COA's legal and financial responsibility, and COA's are chronically underfunded. Maintaining adequate reserves is key, as is determining the solvency and management proficiency of any condo building you're considering buying into before you stroke that big due diligence check.

Municipalities and their building inspectors put all virtually all structural matters of consequence back on the building/COA and their engineers. Inspectors and inspections departments do not have the staff, training or expertise to discover or adjudicate complicated structural matters; they are generalists tasked with making sure **** doesn't get way off the rails or there aren't obvious defects. Their main role is to make sure the COA's and their engineers are fulfilling their responsibilities.

This tragic situation in Florida looks like the inspecting engineers did their jobs and identified very serious structural maintenance and integrity issues. What's less clear is why the COA didn't act on them timely (and what role if any the inspections department played in not requiring that they do so).

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Thanks, an interesting read. Regarding your last statement, the one thing that jumps to my mind about why the COA didn't act more timely would be..."impact of costs" against risks? I mean, what is the last time a building collapsed? They have to be safe, right...look at the hundreds/thousands just along the SFL coast (not to mention Carolinas, etc).
Versus.....we already have to invest in many other repairs / beautification projects that are going to cost tens of K in assessments....we can put this other off (because buildings don't fall).

Plus, trying to put myself in their shoes, I'd think the actual members / owners of each unit, would be screaming bloody murder about finding someone else to sue and own the $$$ for fixing the issue, instead of ever actually moving forward with it??

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Yeah humans are often bad at assessing risk especially when there is no recent example of a calamitous outcome from a certain action or inaction.

Asia had dealt with a deadly pandemic much more recently and was better prepared than other parts of the world for COVID. We would have responded more effectively if we'd last battled a pandemic 15 years ago instead of 100 years ago.

We were woefully unprepared to prevent a huge terrorist attack until 9/11 happened. Now we're better prepared.

But, over time memories fade and institutional knowledge of past events abate. 60 or 80 or 100 years from now we'll likely let our guard down.

I just started a book called The Fourth Turning that addresses these cycles that tend to repeat themselves throughout history.

You're right that homeowners would have *****ed like crazy about a huge assessment (for structural work) that they wouldn't receive any clearly tangible benefit from. You're right they could have gone looking for someone to sue civilly although with Florida's 10 year statute of repose they'd probably be encouraged not to pursue a claim against the original designer or GC. You're right that buildings and structural elements don't often fail in this country resulting in loss of life.

But they're more common internationally and many of the typical conspiring culprits (age; salt air; original engineering and/or construction defects; water damage; settlement; and inadequate maintenance) all conspired to create a catastrophic outcome.

National Review Link

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What of the inspection report? Can we blame Ross Prieto, the local building official who was in charge at the time it was issued? The Miami Herald reports that Prieto was, indeed, forwarded a document noting "major structural damage" to the building, and that, despite this, he assured residents at a town meeting that the building was "in very good shape." Which all sounds rather damning until one learns not only that the relevant portion is buried on page seven, but that it was not highlighted or mentioned anywhere else within the documents. And why not? Well, because it wasn't the dire warning that the press has made it out to be. As the Washington Post reports, the "longtime engineer hired by the town of Surfside to analyze possible causes of the tower collapse" has poured cold water upon the idea that the report Prieto was sent should have "raised a red flag." The "media coverage of the inspection," Allyn Kilsheimer has said, "is "overblown." The report's "finding is fairly typical."

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An ocean front building down here at CB was shut down a couple of years ago because of deterioration to the steel reinforcement in the concrete that was uncovered on a routine inspection. It's been a little while since I was down there, but I think they may still be working on it. All the owners were assessed for the repairs IIRC. It was only 3-5 stories tall.

Scary stuff. I live in a high rise in Miami (not near the one that collapsed), but mine was built in 2008.

SportManagementEngineer said:

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Scary stuff. I live in a high rise in Miami (not near the one that collapsed), but mine was built in 2008.

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It actually doesn't matter the year it was built....not being a negative Nancy but the pedestrian bridge that collapsed in Charlotte that was exposed to the same chemical reactions that the pylons in Miami are/were albeit accelerated took less than two years.

When salt and moisture are added to exposed rebar the corrosion effects are unbelievably fast. Any exposed rebar will fail. That's why in Northern states they have to use coated rebar. It's at least 2-3 times more expensive than standard rebar.

Check out your parking garage, foundation supports etc... any sign of exposed rebar I would report them immediately and keep doing so until it is repaired.

Unbelievable how the inspector dropped the ball on this one. There will be lawsuits and I will wager that he was a "political" ally of some lefty. Sorry folks... truth is the the truth. It won't come out but on a few news sites. You won't see it on the lefties' MSM overlord's sites.

Interesting in some of the reports and pictures you can see clear shear punch at the column/table slab connections at the pool deck. Makes me think there are multiple causes for this collapse as well as those people on the half that didn't come down are pretty damn fortunate.