That's exactly what the former players told meEthanBarry said:
I think Avent deserves the first chance with better facilities.
Devine will be a good one in time but he's not readywilmwolf80 said:
Not at this time, for these reasons:
- Folks say the team collapsed, but had they not performed well above the sum of their parts earlier in the year, there wouldn't have been the possibility for a "collapse". Team made it to #2 in the country with 1.5 starting pitchers. Baseball has a way of evening things out, and it did. Our regional was the toughest in the country, by design. We were the 16th seed, and Auburn very easily could've jumped us to host given their measurables. We shouldn't have lost to Army, but we would've still had to beat Auburn twice, and would've had to face their ace. Despite the disappointment, I'm pleased with the year as a whole. The team was fun to watch, and exceeded my expectations.
- Title drought acknowledged and put aside, there will be significant backlash for firing a coach after winning 40+ games this year, 1,000 carer games, etc. Though not always deserved, we have a reputation of being a difficult fanbase, and the media loves raking us over the coals.
- With an AD in her last year, I think it would make hiring a new coach much more difficult. If we get rid of a coach like Avent, it has to be for an upgrade, and I don't think that will be possible with the pending change and the facility issues.
I would instead like to see the following things happen:
- Foxhall is asked to step down, and elevate Devine to pitching coach.
- I'd like a clear succession plan laid out for after the new AD is hired. Avent agrees to a retirement date, and gets to go out with the dignity he has earned.
- Coinciding with that, there should be a hard plan put in place for facility upgrades. Bring Turner, Rodon, etc. in as faces of a fundraising effort to pay off the existing debt, and raise money for a new park. Allow alums to donate directly to the baseball program, through LTRs or whatever you have to do to make sure the money goes to baseball. New AD will need to be vocal about commitment to baseball. New coach gets a long term deal, acknowledging that a plan and commitment is in place to address facilities, and giving him time to overcome those difficulties.
1 yr then team manager the other yrsPackFansXL said:
Glass, are you a former Pack baseball player?
Where has Duke been in baseball? They're having a good season and congrats to them but you have to look at a longer sample size than just one season. Either way, even if State gets the best stadium in all sports, a lot of other things have to go right to win championships. Health, coaching, hell - weather, etc. This is an example but it doesn't support your case very well.Struttingwolf96 said:
Well with Duke beating Georgia in there nice, own facility I guess the Geoegia fans should be irate. The school gives them a place like that to play in & they lose to lowly Duke, a basketball school. There's no way they should have lost playing at home with that home field advantage. Goes to show you having top notch facilities doesn't equal winning.
Struttingwolf96 said:
Well with Duke beating Georgia in there nice, own facility I guess the Geoegia fans should be irate. The school gives them a place like that to play in & they lose to lowly Duke, a basketball school. There's no way they should have lost playing at home with that home field advantage. Goes to show you having top notch facilities doesn't equal winning.
BricesCreekWolf said:
Please imagine Allen Iverson mumbling (repeatedly) the following:
" 21 seasons and zero Championships"
Only State would put up with that level of mediocrity.
We have been great to him for years but its time for a change. DY promised that she would not settle for the status quo when she took the job, and for the most part, she lived up to it. Elliot Avent is the status quo.
Frankcal20 said:Where has Duke been in baseball? They're having a good season and congrats to them but you have to look at a longer sample size than just one season. Either way, even if State gets the best stadium in all sports, a lot of other things have to go right to win championships. Health, coaching, hell - weather, etc. This is an example but it doesn't support your case very well.Struttingwolf96 said:
Well with Duke beating Georgia in there nice, own facility I guess the Geoegia fans should be irate. The school gives them a place like that to play in & they lose to lowly Duke, a basketball school. There's no way they should have lost playing at home with that home field advantage. Goes to show you having top notch facilities doesn't equal winning.
Struttingwolf96 said:
Ole Miss goes down too, at home in there minor league like level ballpark that some people at State want & feel will make us better & to that next level. Guess the Ole Miss fans will want to add a few more upgrades to the stadium so they can be more competitive. Remember how some State fans said the pnc arena would get us to the top of the ACC & be a great place to play. How longs it been since its been built & how many ACC titles does the basketball program have, should have never left Reynolds, should have renovated it years ago like its been done now. Keatts has came in & looks like a COACH might be making us relevant again in basketball. Coaching & coaching up all your players gets the job done.
There is no way on god's green earth this team is deeper than the CWS team. The pitching staff alone from that 2013 team is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay deeper than this year's team.Packsd14me said:
My vote is yes. His coaching stye was diminished with the restrictions placed on bats. The winning focus today is pitching, speed and defense. Cut down on strike outs, put the ball in play, apply pressure to the other team. In big games we struck out way too much. 37 times in 3 games versus UNC. 14 times in one game versus FSU. No changes are made. Avent believes in offense before all else. The players he recruits fit his style. We perform well against lesser talented teams but struggle against talented pitching staffs. To win championships in baseball it is a must to beat talented pitchers, even if they are better than the one you have on the mound. Avent's style needs Rodon-type pitchers to be successful. The pitching and defense style, our pitcher doesn't have to be better than the other team, just good enough to give us a chance to win. Speaking of recruiting, I believe being in the ACC carries Avent in recruiting, not the other way around. Have any of you seen him at a game watching players he likes? I have. Fox of UNC, Pollard of Duke, Scalf at UNC-W, especially Gary Gimore of Coastal Carolina are much better . Heck, most all of the smaller schools are much more personable. I was disappointed for the players in his demeanor around them and lack of attention paid them as compared to those mentioned above. Gilmore is honest and great with each player. Our program is on the verge of being something very special. This team had the talent to make noise at Omaha. Blame always falls to the coach for losing. It is a way of life as a coach. Players win games, coaches lose them. I love this team. The team deserved a better coach this year. Avent did a poor job. This team was deeper than the Rodon/Turner Omaha team and should have gone further in the tournament. They lost confidence after the UNC series. It's Avent's job to fix that. He never did. He just let them play in the same manner that lost games, changing very little except batting order. The players, doing their best in the manner they were taught, couldn't fix it. It is time for a change. The players deserve better, in my opinion.
Logan Ratledge has always been an INF. Pretty sure he played SS in HS.Packsd14me said:
I have never said that Avent played too much small ball. He recruits bigger, power hitting type guys. Turner was the except rather than the rule. Ratledge was a left fielder playing shortstop and second base. He hit well but the defense suffered. Avent is like Earl Weaver. He plays for a 3 run homer. Joe Dunand is a great example. At most schools, he is a power hitting third baseman. Good hands, great feet, power hitter with limit range.Will Wilson and Jarrett are different than in past years. We were stronger up the middle. Much more like the Clemson's, FSU's, the UVa's and even UNC's that we are trying to beat. We always hit lots of home runs. It is the same thing year after year not just this season. We beat up on teams that have average pitching but can't hit well enough to beat the good pitchers. Look at the stats. As you can see, I am not a big proponent of the American League, "launch angle" style that is played now. Striking out less is the way to win games. Look at the Astros and the Braves as two current examples. Home runs are nice but they very seldom win championships. They just get you on ESPN when the highlights are shown. The ground out to the right side with runner on second and no outs is just as important, and it is needed all the time. Knowing when to run and when not to is important. Showcase baseball is hurting the kids. They learn to play selfishly. It gets them noticed in the way of scholarship money and maybe even drafted but it doesn't teach you how to win. Good coaches do.
Avent literally got skewered on these same boards for the better part of a decade by fans for playing small ball. Fans hated it, raised holy hell. Now, we're gonna ***** because he's relying on home runs and doesn't bunt enough? It's comical. We've got people saying this team was deeper than the 2003 team??? Comical.Packsd14me said:
I have never said that Avent played too much small ball. He recruits bigger, power hitting type guys. Turner was the except rather than the rule. Ratledge was a left fielder playing shortstop and second base. He hit well but the defense suffered. Avent is like Earl Weaver. He plays for a 3 run homer. Joe Dunand is a great example. At most schools, he is a power hitting third baseman. Good hands, great feet, power hitter with limit range.Will Wilson and Jarrett are different than in past years. We were stronger up the middle. Much more like the Clemson's, FSU's, the UVa's and even UNC's that we are trying to beat. We always hit lots of home runs. It is the same thing year after year not just this season. We beat up on teams that have average pitching but can't hit well enough to beat the good pitchers. Look at the stats. As you can see, I am not a big proponent of the American League, "launch angle" style that is played now. Striking out less is the way to win games. Look at the Astros and the Braves as two current examples. Home runs are nice but they very seldom win championships. They just get you on ESPN when the highlights are shown. The ground out to the right side with runner on second and no outs is just as important, and it is needed all the time. Knowing when to run and when not to is important. Showcase baseball is hurting the kids. They learn to play selfishly. It gets them noticed in the way of scholarship money and maybe even drafted but it doesn't teach you how to win. Good coaches do.
Determining who was shortening up their swing is subjective at best. The fact is, the guys a the bottom of the order, the "just make contact" guys, stopped making contact the last three weeks of the season. Pitarra, who I think never really recovered from his injury, struck out, grounded out, or lined out in virtually every opportunity he had with runners on the last few weeks. He is the very definition of a contact hitter, and as a senior, is the exact guy you want up in those scenarios, and he didn't come through. JT, who got his average up to .340 at one point on nothing but seeing eye singles and bunts had a woeful end of the year at the plate, hitting nothing but shallow pop ups and dribblers to the short stop. I'm not dogging those guys, but what you attribute to a coaching issue can just as easily be an issue of guys not executing. I can find plenty of fault in our plate approach. I'm not excusing it. Guys like Kinneman rolled over the ball and hit into the shift way too often. We watched too many good pitches hit the mitt, and swung at too many balls in the dirt. We also hit the ball a ton. McClain led the league in hits. We all know the HR numbers. We were at or near the top of most offensive categories in the conference. If you are going to blame the coach for the deficiencies, you have to give him credit for all the things we did well.gopack1979 said:
I don't read anyone wanting bunts... But fundamental baseball ie moving the runner over from second to 3rd and scoring a runner when they're on 3rd with 1 out instead of swinging for the fences, rarely did it seem like players were shortening up their swing to make contact.
What this dude said.wilmwolf80 said:Determining who was shortening up their swing is subjective at best. The fact is, the guys a the bottom of the order, the "just make contact" guys, stopped making contact the last three weeks of the season. Pitarra, who I think never really recovered from his injury, struck out, grounded out, or lined out in virtually every opportunity he had with runners on the last few weeks. He is the very definition of a contact hitter, and as a senior, is the exact guy you want up in those scenarios, and he didn't come through. JT, who got his average up to .340 at one point on nothing but seeing eye singles and bunts had a woeful end of the year at the plate, hitting nothing but shallow pop ups and dribblers to the short stop. I'm not dogging those guys, but what you attribute to a coaching issue can just as easily be an issue of guys not executing. I can find plenty of fault in our plate approach. I'm not excusing it. Guys like Kinneman rolled over the ball and hit into the shift way too often. We watched too many good pitches hit the mitt, and swung at too many balls in the dirt. We also hit the ball a ton. McClain led the league in hits. We all know the HR numbers. We were at or near the top of most offensive categories in the conference. If you are going to blame the coach for the deficiencies, you have to give him credit for all the things we did well.gopack1979 said:
I don't read anyone wanting bunts... But fundamental baseball ie moving the runner over from second to 3rd and scoring a runner when they're on 3rd with 1 out instead of swinging for the fences, rarely did it seem like players were shortening up their swing to make contact.
YesRipper said:
Is Chris Hart a viable replacement for whenever Avent leaves? Is he considered a top level assistant?
Also, I still don't understand how Avent can hold up stadium upgrades if the AD wants them. He says no, I want the current low grade venue, and the AD says ok, we'll leave the place as is. Sounds like missing info on the situation or a complete dysfunctional cluster f bomb between the parties.
I think it sucks if one or both parties are not acting in the best interest of NC State Baseball.
Edit: also agree with WW80 comments
