The Biden Administration..V3

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Packchem91
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Steve Videtich said:

Packchem91 said:

Steve Videtich said:

Packchem91 said:

Steve Videtich said:

Packchem91 said:

Steve Videtich said:

Packchem91 said:

Steve Videtich said:

Packchem91 said:

packgrad said:

I got stopped and frisked on the hood of my car in Durham for driving by a crime scene too many times. This nonsense about systemic racism because you know 3 black people is stupid.


LOL, How does driving by a crime scene too many times or actually being in a crime area equate to a black teen walking home into a nice neighborhood. Walking into your neighborhood. A nice one. That is the definition of profiling.

You guys can deny it all you want, but of course it exists. You want to focus on 3 (out of 3) people questioned, that's fine…since it's FB season, what do you think response you'd get if you questioned every one of our black players? We know… there's a reason Dave has been so supportive of the marches that Moore and other players have led on.
But sure, stick your head in the sand…that approach usually works .

Is it bettter than it was when we were all kids…absolutely. Are we rid of these tendencies, absolutely not.
Can that still mean Biden over plays his hand on these things because it plays to his left base….sure he does.

But it's awfully white to say "policing base on race doesn't exist" or, as Cary said, is ok.

Some of you are the same guys who've been crying for two years and talking "civil war" because you believe the government singles you out for your actions (not getting vaccinated, wearing masks, etc), but think there is no evidence that black people are still singled out.




Just asking for clarification. Are you saying ask all players if they've been profiled or if racism exists?
Well we know racism exists.

But PG doesn't accept my examples because I only asked the 3 black people who worked for me and they all had examples of family members who had been profiled and stopped (or searched additionally after stopped) despite there being no other evidence against them.

So yes, I'd be interested....if you polled the black team members on our FB team, or any other FB team, if they or there family members had ever been unreasonably stopped/searched in their lives....what % would agree?


**I get we will build in our own biases on what is reasonable.


I understand the the story you're telling about the 3 people you know. I guess my question is, do you think that these 3 people represent all people of color and therefore happens to just about everyone?

I shared a good portion of my life with people of color, and yes I've heard the stories similar to what you describe. They are real. Some were upset a great deal and carried that feeling with them throughout their lives. Others brushed it off as a stupid one off. And others never had an instance like that.

More recently I've talked to people of color who think the democrats have lost their damn minds. They think that Trump was a good person and happily voted for him. And they also think that many people of color need to get over themselves and take responsibility for their own actions.

I don't think anyone on here thinks racism doesn't exist, nor profiling. I think the issue is that we can't take every example or instance of bad actors and claim there is a "systemic" problem. That's kind of what you're doing with your 3 examples.

Yes, racism exists. Yes profiling exists. (Political profiling also) But, we need to call out the bad seeds that cause these instances. You can't burn the entire forest down. We are a far cry from where we were in the first half of the 20th century. But we are not perfect either. The more we get rid of the bad seeds, the better we will continue to grow in the right direction.


But if it is found in police departments all over the country and really, other then PG and a few others, who is going to argue it is isn't that the definition of systemic?

It's not just Florida, or San Fran, or the south, or Boston…it happens in all those places. Small cities, big cities.
At some point, isn't it more then just "a few bad actors"?

We can chalk up the Floyd murder as a few bad actors if you want, or any one specific instance like that, but when it's just things to bother people to let them know they have the power, etc, I would argue taht goes beyond bad apples and is systemic

Again, it's why Dave and other like minded coaches, are so supportive of these kids using their voices…it can make a difference.

Versus, as Cary says just put your head in the sand and wait.


So, do you think all police officers think this way?



Absolutely not. I also don't think all people who are in jail are guilty, nor all congressmen are looking out only for themselves, etc.
But I think systemically, Congress is a bunch of self-serving grifters.


I'm not even sure what that response was. I asked about all police officers being racially motivated. So, I'll take the first couple words as your answer to that. The rest...I don't know.

Anyway, statistics say that police kill 75% more white people than the next closest demographic. While I would agree that profiling does exist with some police officers, could it be that a bigger issue might be police officers that are overly aggressive? Or, do you simply think that everything is race based only?


I thought it was pretty clear…not all police are racists, that doesn't meant the system doesn't have issues with racial profiling, across the country

Statistics also say a black man is like x times more likely to die at the hands of a cop than a white man.

I 100% believe some cops can be overly aggressive - some love the power regardless of race. That's why it's a problem if you then couple taht with a system that by design looks for blacks more

Btw, to your last comment…there is nothing "simple" about this. Which is why we can't just say "it's not happening, just get over it"




Also, I never said "it's not happening, just get over it." I have actually said there are issues with it. I'm just not sure it's systemic. To say it's systemic is to say that all officers act this way and are taught to act this way. There are a lot of police officers of color. Do you think they're acting in this way?

I do think some things need to change in police force. First, police unions need to stop protecting bad officers and officers that display this type of behavior. Second, better training and continued training. Third, do away with no knock warrants. Fourth, being a police officer is a tough job. Let's not leave officers continuously working on the street can make them hardened in their view points. Why not move them around from the street, to the desk, or wherever so they don't become hardened in this way.

Thoughts?


Didn't say you said that. You've been very fair in this discussion - I suspect your experience with large numbers of young black adults has given you an "eyes wide open" perspective. But Cary did - said it was this kind of discussion that was what is wrong, lol. PG…well he was what he is - he disputes everything I say even his own words…..but he apparently thinks there is zero issue too.

As for your points, all solid. Including the notion that police have incredibly difficult jobs. Couldn't pay me enough to do it. And it's easy (and popular) to blame them

I'd add to your list, a review of the profiling metrics regularly at various levels and evolving how that is done.
People shouldn't get picked up by police because they are black and are in an area that is mostly white. There are absolutely behavioral characteristics that should trigger profiling…but skin color or ethnicity should not be one of them
Steve Videtich
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I'm not sure how you would review profiling metrics. Are stops like checking somebody walking through a neighborhood noted in any kind of reporting? I don't know.
BBW12OG
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Why do stereotypes exist?

What leads to the so-called "profiling" of potential criminals?

I'll hang up and listen.
Big Bad Wolf. OG...2002

"The Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson
caryking
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Packchem91 said:

Steve Videtich said:

Packchem91 said:

Steve Videtich said:

Packchem91 said:

packgrad said:

I got stopped and frisked on the hood of my car in Durham for driving by a crime scene too many times. This nonsense about systemic racism because you know 3 black people is stupid.


LOL, How does driving by a crime scene too many times or actually being in a crime area equate to a black teen walking home into a nice neighborhood. Walking into your neighborhood. A nice one. That is the definition of profiling.

You guys can deny it all you want, but of course it exists. You want to focus on 3 (out of 3) people questioned, that's fine…since it's FB season, what do you think response you'd get if you questioned every one of our black players? We know… there's a reason Dave has been so supportive of the marches that Moore and other players have led on.
But sure, stick your head in the sand…that approach usually works .

Is it bettter than it was when we were all kids…absolutely. Are we rid of these tendencies, absolutely not.
Can that still mean Biden over plays his hand on these things because it plays to his left base….sure he does.

But it's awfully white to say "policing base on race doesn't exist" or, as Cary said, is ok.

Some of you are the same guys who've been crying for two years and talking "civil war" because you believe the government singles you out for your actions (not getting vaccinated, wearing masks, etc), but think there is no evidence that black people are still singled out.




Just asking for clarification. Are you saying ask all players if they've been profiled or if racism exists?
Well we know racism exists.

But PG doesn't accept my examples because I only asked the 3 black people who worked for me and they all had examples of family members who had been profiled and stopped (or searched additionally after stopped) despite there being no other evidence against them.

So yes, I'd be interested....if you polled the black team members on our FB team, or any other FB team, if they or there family members had ever been unreasonably stopped/searched in their lives....what % would agree?


**I get we will build in our own biases on what is reasonable.


I understand the the story you're telling about the 3 people you know. I guess my question is, do you think that these 3 people represent all people of color and therefore happens to just about everyone?

I shared a good portion of my life with people of color, and yes I've heard the stories similar to what you describe. They are real. Some were upset a great deal and carried that feeling with them throughout their lives. Others brushed it off as a stupid one off. And others never had an instance like that.

More recently I've talked to people of color who think the democrats have lost their damn minds. They think that Trump was a good person and happily voted for him. And they also think that many people of color need to get over themselves and take responsibility for their own actions.

I don't think anyone on here thinks racism doesn't exist, nor profiling. I think the issue is that we can't take every example or instance of bad actors and claim there is a "systemic" problem. That's kind of what you're doing with your 3 examples.

Yes, racism exists. Yes profiling exists. (Political profiling also) But, we need to call out the bad seeds that cause these instances. You can't burn the entire forest down. We are a far cry from where we were in the first half of the 20th century. But we are not perfect either. The more we get rid of the bad seeds, the better we will continue to grow in the right direction.


But if it is found in police departments all over the country and really, other then PG and a few others, who is going to argue it is isn't that the definition of systemic?

It's not just Florida, or San Fran, or the south, or Boston…it happens in all those places. Small cities, big cities.
At some point, isn't it more then just "a few bad actors"?

We can chalk up the Floyd murder as a few bad actors if you want, or any one specific instance like that, but when it's just things to bother people to let them know they have the power, etc, I would argue taht goes beyond bad apples and is systemic

Again, it's why Dave and other like minded coaches, are so supportive of these kids using their voices…it can make a difference.

Versus, as Cary says just put your head in the sand and wait.
Chem, I really question your ability to deal with life. As I've said above, racism is real, in this country, and it works both ways. My point is very simple…. You can't change people by changing laws. You have to change their heart. It's not going to 100% (probably never) until our society completely overturns through deaths and births.

Now, Chem, talk to your kids and let them know the truth. As I tell my own "white" kids… we have people in our society that are just mean and full of hate. They do not define who you are. You are a creation of God and only he, can define you, other than yourself.

So, Chem, all I'm saying is that I parent my kids the best I can. My kids can only control what they do. They can't control what others do. Also, nothing about this will be easy; however, you can allow yourself to be consumed by hate or focus your attention on the good that you bring.
The Administrative State - Rise of the Fourth Reich!!
BBW12OG
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Wonder how some on here view the lady whose daughter was "allegedly" called the "n" word during the BYU volleyball game?

All of a sudden, once again, and I mean several dozens, of so-called racists claims made by POC turns out to be a hoax......

Oh... and the lady just happens to be running for judge in her district.

Only the best am I right??? LMAO...
Big Bad Wolf. OG...2002

"The Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson
Packchem91
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Steve Videtich said:

I'm not sure how you would review profiling metrics. Are stops like checking somebody walking through a neighborhood noted in any kind of reporting? I don't know.


From what I've gathered, police metrics in general are poorly and inconsistently measured - like no national standards. So depends on department to department

Seems odd given the amount of paperwork police have to do these days
BBW12OG
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Here's a common sense question and I want each of you to answer it honestly.

You and your family, wife, kids.. whatever.... are walking down a street at night. Ahead you see two individuals walking toward you. Does your concern for your family or your instincts become heightened if they are POC? If they are white? If they are male/female? And in this situation you are the only ones on said street. And it is late at night.

And if you say they are of no concern you are lying.
Big Bad Wolf. OG...2002

"The Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson
Packchem91
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caryking said:

Packchem91 said:

Steve Videtich said:

Packchem91 said:

Steve Videtich said:

Packchem91 said:

packgrad said:

I got stopped and frisked on the hood of my car in Durham for driving by a crime scene too many times. This nonsense about systemic racism because you know 3 black people is stupid.


LOL, How does driving by a crime scene too many times or actually being in a crime area equate to a black teen walking home into a nice neighborhood. Walking into your neighborhood. A nice one. That is the definition of profiling.

You guys can deny it all you want, but of course it exists. You want to focus on 3 (out of 3) people questioned, that's fine…since it's FB season, what do you think response you'd get if you questioned every one of our black players? We know… there's a reason Dave has been so supportive of the marches that Moore and other players have led on.
But sure, stick your head in the sand…that approach usually works .

Is it bettter than it was when we were all kids…absolutely. Are we rid of these tendencies, absolutely not.
Can that still mean Biden over plays his hand on these things because it plays to his left base….sure he does.

But it's awfully white to say "policing base on race doesn't exist" or, as Cary said, is ok.

Some of you are the same guys who've been crying for two years and talking "civil war" because you believe the government singles you out for your actions (not getting vaccinated, wearing masks, etc), but think there is no evidence that black people are still singled out.




Just asking for clarification. Are you saying ask all players if they've been profiled or if racism exists?
Well we know racism exists.

But PG doesn't accept my examples because I only asked the 3 black people who worked for me and they all had examples of family members who had been profiled and stopped (or searched additionally after stopped) despite there being no other evidence against them.

So yes, I'd be interested....if you polled the black team members on our FB team, or any other FB team, if they or there family members had ever been unreasonably stopped/searched in their lives....what % would agree?


**I get we will build in our own biases on what is reasonable.


I understand the the story you're telling about the 3 people you know. I guess my question is, do you think that these 3 people represent all people of color and therefore happens to just about everyone?

I shared a good portion of my life with people of color, and yes I've heard the stories similar to what you describe. They are real. Some were upset a great deal and carried that feeling with them throughout their lives. Others brushed it off as a stupid one off. And others never had an instance like that.

More recently I've talked to people of color who think the democrats have lost their damn minds. They think that Trump was a good person and happily voted for him. And they also think that many people of color need to get over themselves and take responsibility for their own actions.

I don't think anyone on here thinks racism doesn't exist, nor profiling. I think the issue is that we can't take every example or instance of bad actors and claim there is a "systemic" problem. That's kind of what you're doing with your 3 examples.

Yes, racism exists. Yes profiling exists. (Political profiling also) But, we need to call out the bad seeds that cause these instances. You can't burn the entire forest down. We are a far cry from where we were in the first half of the 20th century. But we are not perfect either. The more we get rid of the bad seeds, the better we will continue to grow in the right direction.


But if it is found in police departments all over the country and really, other then PG and a few others, who is going to argue it is isn't that the definition of systemic?

It's not just Florida, or San Fran, or the south, or Boston…it happens in all those places. Small cities, big cities.
At some point, isn't it more then just "a few bad actors"?

We can chalk up the Floyd murder as a few bad actors if you want, or any one specific instance like that, but when it's just things to bother people to let them know they have the power, etc, I would argue taht goes beyond bad apples and is systemic

Again, it's why Dave and other like minded coaches, are so supportive of these kids using their voices…it can make a difference.

Versus, as Cary says just put your head in the sand and wait.
Chem, I really question your ability to deal with life. As I've said above, racism is real, in this country, and it works both ways. My point is very simple…. You can't change people by changing laws. You have to change their heart. It's not going to 100% (probably never) until our society completely overturns through deaths and births.

Now, Chem, talk to your kids and let them know the truth. As I tell my own "white" kids… we have people in our society that are just mean and full of hate. They do not define who you are. You are a creation of God and only he, can define you, other than yourself.

So, Chem, all I'm saying is that I parent my kids the best I can. My kids can only control what they do. They can't control what others do. Also, nothing about this will be easy; however, you can allow yourself to be consumed by hate or focus your attention on the good that you bring.


Lol, as I've said before to you, get over yourself. Lol, you are telling me we just need to ignore it, but I'm the guy who can't manage life, lol. Can you not see how condescending and ignorant that is? I do ok. You are welcome to accompany me on my next international mission trip and see exactly how well I can handle life (where you have to stay somewhere other than a cushy resort).

You said profiling doesn't matter - is that what you told your daughter when she was profiled? As I recall, you were quite upset. Now imagine you had to deal with that kind of results of profiling regularly if not you, your kids, your friends (and not because of a decision you made, but simply because of your skin color)

You may not be able to stop racism, but you can certainly address policies that are racist

Amd I still want to know what the profile of a white persona is who enters into a predominantly black neighborhood. I've done taht a # of times, so I want to know, in your view of the world, how am I perceived?
PackFansXL
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https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565

Quote:

"Systemic racism includes the complex array of antiblack practices, the unjustly gained political-economic power of whites, the continuing economic and other resource inequalities along racial lines, and the white racist ideologies and attitudes created to maintain and rationalize white privilege and power. Systemic here means that the core racist realities are manifested in each of society's major parts [...] each major part of U.S. society the economy, politics, education, religion, the family reflects the fundamental reality of systemic racism."
The quote above is from the inventor of the systemic racism term, Joe Feagin. The link is to a site that attempts to define terms that are supposed to be current problems but examples all sound like behavior that was outlawed decades ago.
Steve Videtich
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Just asking, not trying to flame. Do you think racism exists in the other direction?
BBW12OG
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Typical....

Big Bad Wolf. OG...2002

"The Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson
Civilized
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caryking said:

Packchem91 said:

Steve Videtich said:

Packchem91 said:

Steve Videtich said:

Packchem91 said:

packgrad said:

I got stopped and frisked on the hood of my car in Durham for driving by a crime scene too many times. This nonsense about systemic racism because you know 3 black people is stupid.


LOL, How does driving by a crime scene too many times or actually being in a crime area equate to a black teen walking home into a nice neighborhood. Walking into your neighborhood. A nice one. That is the definition of profiling.

You guys can deny it all you want, but of course it exists. You want to focus on 3 (out of 3) people questioned, that's fine…since it's FB season, what do you think response you'd get if you questioned every one of our black players? We know… there's a reason Dave has been so supportive of the marches that Moore and other players have led on.
But sure, stick your head in the sand…that approach usually works .

Is it bettter than it was when we were all kids…absolutely. Are we rid of these tendencies, absolutely not.
Can that still mean Biden over plays his hand on these things because it plays to his left base….sure he does.

But it's awfully white to say "policing base on race doesn't exist" or, as Cary said, is ok.

Some of you are the same guys who've been crying for two years and talking "civil war" because you believe the government singles you out for your actions (not getting vaccinated, wearing masks, etc), but think there is no evidence that black people are still singled out.




Just asking for clarification. Are you saying ask all players if they've been profiled or if racism exists?
Well we know racism exists.

But PG doesn't accept my examples because I only asked the 3 black people who worked for me and they all had examples of family members who had been profiled and stopped (or searched additionally after stopped) despite there being no other evidence against them.

So yes, I'd be interested....if you polled the black team members on our FB team, or any other FB team, if they or there family members had ever been unreasonably stopped/searched in their lives....what % would agree?


**I get we will build in our own biases on what is reasonable.


I understand the the story you're telling about the 3 people you know. I guess my question is, do you think that these 3 people represent all people of color and therefore happens to just about everyone?

I shared a good portion of my life with people of color, and yes I've heard the stories similar to what you describe. They are real. Some were upset a great deal and carried that feeling with them throughout their lives. Others brushed it off as a stupid one off. And others never had an instance like that.

More recently I've talked to people of color who think the democrats have lost their damn minds. They think that Trump was a good person and happily voted for him. And they also think that many people of color need to get over themselves and take responsibility for their own actions.

I don't think anyone on here thinks racism doesn't exist, nor profiling. I think the issue is that we can't take every example or instance of bad actors and claim there is a "systemic" problem. That's kind of what you're doing with your 3 examples.

Yes, racism exists. Yes profiling exists. (Political profiling also) But, we need to call out the bad seeds that cause these instances. You can't burn the entire forest down. We are a far cry from where we were in the first half of the 20th century. But we are not perfect either. The more we get rid of the bad seeds, the better we will continue to grow in the right direction.


But if it is found in police departments all over the country and really, other then PG and a few others, who is going to argue it is isn't that the definition of systemic?

It's not just Florida, or San Fran, or the south, or Boston…it happens in all those places. Small cities, big cities.
At some point, isn't it more then just "a few bad actors"?

We can chalk up the Floyd murder as a few bad actors if you want, or any one specific instance like that, but when it's just things to bother people to let them know they have the power, etc, I would argue taht goes beyond bad apples and is systemic

Again, it's why Dave and other like minded coaches, are so supportive of these kids using their voices…it can make a difference.

Versus, as Cary says just put your head in the sand and wait.
Chem, I really question your ability to deal with life. As I've said above, racism is real, in this country, and it works both ways. My point is very simple…. You can't change people by changing laws. You have to change their heart. It's not going to 100% (probably never) until our society completely overturns through deaths and births.

Now, Chem, talk to your kids and let them know the truth. As I tell my own "white" kids… we have people in our society that are just mean and full of hate. They do not define who you are. You are a creation of God and only he, can define you, other than yourself.

So, Chem, all I'm saying is that I parent my kids the best I can. My kids can only control what they do. They can't control what others do. Also, nothing about this will be easy; however, you can allow yourself to be consumed by hate or focus your attention on the good that you bring.

Cary the goal of changing laws and procedures isn't to change people. It's to reduce or eliminate the impact of their negative biases or behavior on others.

Lots of white people are triggered by the idea of systemic racism for a variety of reasons. Steve hit on one of these - that "systemic racism" must mean everyone in the system (i.e. all cops, prosecutors, whoever) are explicitly racist. Other white people are just tired of hearing about anything that could even loosely be construed as "woke." Which is understandable but also unfortunate, since although some wokeness is just PC-culture-run-amok, there are still real problems in our systems and institutions that we need to continue to address.

The problem isn't that bad actors are policing or prosecuting and explicitly thinking to themselves, "How can I **** over a Black person today," it's that people's subconscious biases enter into their decisions in a way that's indefensibly bad for Black Americans.

Here are three easy examples we've discussed on here before.

According to the National Registry of Exonerations, Black people are 12x more likely to be wrongly convicted of drug crimes than whites.

As highlighted in Suspect Citizens: What 20 Million Traffic Stops Tell Us About Policing and Race, a book that assess the macro data from 14 years of traffic stops in NC, Black drivers are stopped by cops at 2x the rate of whites and searched at 4x the rate of whites, yet contraband is turned up at a rate that is lower than from white drivers.

And, as studied extensively, whites are charged with or convicted of crimes at a significantly lower rate than Black Americans even when the evidence presented to the prosecutor is similar (read about charging bias amongst prosecutors).

When you really dive into it you quickly realize that outcomes at every turn disfavor Black Americans - traffic stops, contraband searches, search-and-frisks, arrests, charges, jury bias, convictions, sentences, appeals, wrongful convictions, and paroles. Every single one.

This is where changing procedures can help minimize negative bias impacts without "changing people's hearts."

Increase police training on implicit bias so they stop pulling and searching Blacks at significantly disproportionate rates. Decriminalize or legalize marijuana, implement de-escalation training, implement blind prosecution. Change heavy-handed mandatory sentencing laws. Instruct and educate juries better to reduce jury bias.

There are quite a number of procudural changes that should enjoy bipartisan support that can reduce the impact of subconscious or systemic bias and improve criminal justice outcomes for Black Americans.

ETA: And given that Black males being incarcerated at nearly seven times the rate of white males is a critical social concern impacting not just actual offenders, but also the wrongly accused, the families, and all our communities, this should be something we're all striving for. It doesn't just benefit Black Americans, it benefits all of us.

Packchem91
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Steve Videtich said:

Just asking, not trying to flame. Do you think racism exists in the other direction?


Yes. There is plenty of prejudice against white people. But I think what we're discussing is really "by those in power" - hiring, policing, sentencing, educating, etc. And in this country, the people in power, in general are white.

I mean, I think this country also has a pretty evident history of racism against Native Americans. Is there a return of that racism by today's tribe? Well I'm pretty sure many of them despise all white people. But do they have power to make a difference? I'd say very limited?
Werewolf
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Civilized said:

caryking said:

Packchem91 said:

Steve Videtich said:

Packchem91 said:

Steve Videtich said:

Packchem91 said:

packgrad said:

I got stopped and frisked on the hood of my car in Durham for driving by a crime scene too many times. This nonsense about systemic racism because you know 3 black people is stupid.


LOL, How does driving by a crime scene too many times or actually being in a crime area equate to a black teen walking home into a nice neighborhood. Walking into your neighborhood. A nice one. That is the definition of profiling.

You guys can deny it all you want, but of course it exists. You want to focus on 3 (out of 3) people questioned, that's fine…since it's FB season, what do you think response you'd get if you questioned every one of our black players? We know… there's a reason Dave has been so supportive of the marches that Moore and other players have led on.
But sure, stick your head in the sand…that approach usually works .

Is it bettter than it was when we were all kids…absolutely. Are we rid of these tendencies, absolutely not.
Can that still mean Biden over plays his hand on these things because it plays to his left base….sure he does.

But it's awfully white to say "policing base on race doesn't exist" or, as Cary said, is ok.

Some of you are the same guys who've been crying for two years and talking "civil war" because you believe the government singles you out for your actions (not getting vaccinated, wearing masks, etc), but think there is no evidence that black people are still singled out.




Just asking for clarification. Are you saying ask all players if they've been profiled or if racism exists?
Well we know racism exists.

But PG doesn't accept my examples because I only asked the 3 black people who worked for me and they all had examples of family members who had been profiled and stopped (or searched additionally after stopped) despite there being no other evidence against them.

So yes, I'd be interested....if you polled the black team members on our FB team, or any other FB team, if they or there family members had ever been unreasonably stopped/searched in their lives....what % would agree?


**I get we will build in our own biases on what is reasonable.


I understand the the story you're telling about the 3 people you know. I guess my question is, do you think that these 3 people represent all people of color and therefore happens to just about everyone?

I shared a good portion of my life with people of color, and yes I've heard the stories similar to what you describe. They are real. Some were upset a great deal and carried that feeling with them throughout their lives. Others brushed it off as a stupid one off. And others never had an instance like that.

More recently I've talked to people of color who think the democrats have lost their damn minds. They think that Trump was a good person and happily voted for him. And they also think that many people of color need to get over themselves and take responsibility for their own actions.

I don't think anyone on here thinks racism doesn't exist, nor profiling. I think the issue is that we can't take every example or instance of bad actors and claim there is a "systemic" problem. That's kind of what you're doing with your 3 examples.

Yes, racism exists. Yes profiling exists. (Political profiling also) But, we need to call out the bad seeds that cause these instances. You can't burn the entire forest down. We are a far cry from where we were in the first half of the 20th century. But we are not perfect either. The more we get rid of the bad seeds, the better we will continue to grow in the right direction.


But if it is found in police departments all over the country and really, other then PG and a few others, who is going to argue it is isn't that the definition of systemic?

It's not just Florida, or San Fran, or the south, or Boston…it happens in all those places. Small cities, big cities.
At some point, isn't it more then just "a few bad actors"?

We can chalk up the Floyd murder as a few bad actors if you want, or any one specific instance like that, but when it's just things to bother people to let them know they have the power, etc, I would argue taht goes beyond bad apples and is systemic

Again, it's why Dave and other like minded coaches, are so supportive of these kids using their voices…it can make a difference.

Versus, as Cary says just put your head in the sand and wait.
Chem, I really question your ability to deal with life. As I've said above, racism is real, in this country, and it works both ways. My point is very simple…. You can't change people by changing laws. You have to change their heart. It's not going to 100% (probably never) until our society completely overturns through deaths and births.

Now, Chem, talk to your kids and let them know the truth. As I tell my own "white" kids… we have people in our society that are just mean and full of hate. They do not define who you are. You are a creation of God and only he, can define you, other than yourself.

So, Chem, all I'm saying is that I parent my kids the best I can. My kids can only control what they do. They can't control what others do. Also, nothing about this will be easy; however, you can allow yourself to be consumed by hate or focus your attention on the good that you bring.

Cary the goal of changing laws and procedures isn't to change people. It's to reduce or eliminate the impact of their negative biases or behavior on others.

Lots of white people are triggered by the idea of systemic racism for a variety of reasons. Steve hit on one of these - that "systemic racism" must mean everyone in the system (i.e. all cops, prosecutors, whoever) are explicitly racist. Other white people are just tired of hearing about anything that could even loosely be construed as "woke." Which is understandable but also unfortunate, since although some wokeness is just PC-culture-run-amok, there are still real problems in our systems and institutions that we need to continue to address.

The problem isn't that bad actors are policing or prosecuting and explicitly thinking to themselves, "How can I **** over a Black person today," it's that people's subconscious biases enter into their decisions in a way that's indefensibly bad for Black Americans.

Here are three easy examples we've discussed on here before.

According to the National Registry of Exonerations, Black people are 12x more likely to be wrongly convicted of drug crimes than whites.

As highlighted in Suspect Citizens: What 20 Million Traffic Stops Tell Us About Policing and Race, a book that assess the macro data from 14 years of traffic stops in NC, Black drivers are stopped by cops at 2x the rate of whites and searched at 4x the rate of whites, yet contraband is turned up at a rate that is lower than from white drivers.

And, as studied extensively, whites are charged with or convicted of crimes at a significantly lower rate than Black Americans even when the evidence presented to the prosecutor is similar (read about charging bias amongst prosecutors).

When you really dive into it you quickly realize that outcomes at every turn disfavor Black Americans - traffic stops, contraband searches, search-and-frisks, arrests, charges, jury bias, convictions, sentences, appeals, wrongful convictions, and paroles. Every single one.

This is where changing procedures can help minimize negative bias impacts without "changing people's hearts."

Increase police training on implicit bias so they stop pulling and searching Blacks at significantly disproportionate rates. Decriminalize or legalize marijuana, implement de-escalation training, implement blind prosecution. Change heavy-handed mandatory sentencing laws. Instruct and educate juries better to reduce jury bias.

There are quite a number of procudural changes that should enjoy bipartisan support that can reduce the impact of subconscious or systemic bias and improve criminal justice outcomes for Black Americans.

ETA: And given that Black males being incarcerated at nearly seven times the rate of white males is a critical social concern impacting not just actual offenders, but also the wrongly accused, the families, and all our communities, this should be something we're all striving for. It doesn't just benefit Black Americans, it benefits all of us.


Spoken like a true Marxist........not recognizing the eventual outcome of totalitarianism. and...........YES, they are both the same in the end. Betting you've got at least a couple of BLM T's in the drawers.
Civilized
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Werewolf said:

Civilized said:

caryking said:

Packchem91 said:

Steve Videtich said:

Packchem91 said:

Steve Videtich said:

Packchem91 said:

packgrad said:

I got stopped and frisked on the hood of my car in Durham for driving by a crime scene too many times. This nonsense about systemic racism because you know 3 black people is stupid.


LOL, How does driving by a crime scene too many times or actually being in a crime area equate to a black teen walking home into a nice neighborhood. Walking into your neighborhood. A nice one. That is the definition of profiling.

You guys can deny it all you want, but of course it exists. You want to focus on 3 (out of 3) people questioned, that's fine…since it's FB season, what do you think response you'd get if you questioned every one of our black players? We know… there's a reason Dave has been so supportive of the marches that Moore and other players have led on.
But sure, stick your head in the sand…that approach usually works .

Is it bettter than it was when we were all kids…absolutely. Are we rid of these tendencies, absolutely not.
Can that still mean Biden over plays his hand on these things because it plays to his left base….sure he does.

But it's awfully white to say "policing base on race doesn't exist" or, as Cary said, is ok.

Some of you are the same guys who've been crying for two years and talking "civil war" because you believe the government singles you out for your actions (not getting vaccinated, wearing masks, etc), but think there is no evidence that black people are still singled out.




Just asking for clarification. Are you saying ask all players if they've been profiled or if racism exists?
Well we know racism exists.

But PG doesn't accept my examples because I only asked the 3 black people who worked for me and they all had examples of family members who had been profiled and stopped (or searched additionally after stopped) despite there being no other evidence against them.

So yes, I'd be interested....if you polled the black team members on our FB team, or any other FB team, if they or there family members had ever been unreasonably stopped/searched in their lives....what % would agree?


**I get we will build in our own biases on what is reasonable.


I understand the the story you're telling about the 3 people you know. I guess my question is, do you think that these 3 people represent all people of color and therefore happens to just about everyone?

I shared a good portion of my life with people of color, and yes I've heard the stories similar to what you describe. They are real. Some were upset a great deal and carried that feeling with them throughout their lives. Others brushed it off as a stupid one off. And others never had an instance like that.

More recently I've talked to people of color who think the democrats have lost their damn minds. They think that Trump was a good person and happily voted for him. And they also think that many people of color need to get over themselves and take responsibility for their own actions.

I don't think anyone on here thinks racism doesn't exist, nor profiling. I think the issue is that we can't take every example or instance of bad actors and claim there is a "systemic" problem. That's kind of what you're doing with your 3 examples.

Yes, racism exists. Yes profiling exists. (Political profiling also) But, we need to call out the bad seeds that cause these instances. You can't burn the entire forest down. We are a far cry from where we were in the first half of the 20th century. But we are not perfect either. The more we get rid of the bad seeds, the better we will continue to grow in the right direction.


But if it is found in police departments all over the country and really, other then PG and a few others, who is going to argue it is isn't that the definition of systemic?

It's not just Florida, or San Fran, or the south, or Boston…it happens in all those places. Small cities, big cities.
At some point, isn't it more then just "a few bad actors"?

We can chalk up the Floyd murder as a few bad actors if you want, or any one specific instance like that, but when it's just things to bother people to let them know they have the power, etc, I would argue taht goes beyond bad apples and is systemic

Again, it's why Dave and other like minded coaches, are so supportive of these kids using their voices…it can make a difference.

Versus, as Cary says just put your head in the sand and wait.
Chem, I really question your ability to deal with life. As I've said above, racism is real, in this country, and it works both ways. My point is very simple…. You can't change people by changing laws. You have to change their heart. It's not going to 100% (probably never) until our society completely overturns through deaths and births.

Now, Chem, talk to your kids and let them know the truth. As I tell my own "white" kids… we have people in our society that are just mean and full of hate. They do not define who you are. You are a creation of God and only he, can define you, other than yourself.

So, Chem, all I'm saying is that I parent my kids the best I can. My kids can only control what they do. They can't control what others do. Also, nothing about this will be easy; however, you can allow yourself to be consumed by hate or focus your attention on the good that you bring.

Cary the goal of changing laws and procedures isn't to change people. It's to reduce or eliminate the impact of their negative biases or behavior on others.

Lots of white people are triggered by the idea of systemic racism for a variety of reasons. Steve hit on one of these - that "systemic racism" must mean everyone in the system (i.e. all cops, prosecutors, whoever) are explicitly racist. Other white people are just tired of hearing about anything that could even loosely be construed as "woke." Which is understandable but also unfortunate, since although some wokeness is just PC-culture-run-amok, there are still real problems in our systems and institutions that we need to continue to address.

The problem isn't that bad actors are policing or prosecuting and explicitly thinking to themselves, "How can I **** over a Black person today," it's that people's subconscious biases enter into their decisions in a way that's indefensibly bad for Black Americans.

Here are three easy examples we've discussed on here before.

According to the National Registry of Exonerations, Black people are 12x more likely to be wrongly convicted of drug crimes than whites.

As highlighted in Suspect Citizens: What 20 Million Traffic Stops Tell Us About Policing and Race, a book that assess the macro data from 14 years of traffic stops in NC, Black drivers are stopped by cops at 2x the rate of whites and searched at 4x the rate of whites, yet contraband is turned up at a rate that is lower than from white drivers.

And, as studied extensively, whites are charged with or convicted of crimes at a significantly lower rate than Black Americans even when the evidence presented to the prosecutor is similar (read about charging bias amongst prosecutors).

When you really dive into it you quickly realize that outcomes at every turn disfavor Black Americans - traffic stops, contraband searches, search-and-frisks, arrests, charges, jury bias, convictions, sentences, appeals, wrongful convictions, and paroles. Every single one.

This is where changing procedures can help minimize negative bias impacts without "changing people's hearts."

Increase police training on implicit bias so they stop pulling and searching Blacks at significantly disproportionate rates. Decriminalize or legalize marijuana, implement de-escalation training, implement blind prosecution. Change heavy-handed mandatory sentencing laws. Instruct and educate juries better to reduce jury bias.

There are quite a number of procudural changes that should enjoy bipartisan support that can reduce the impact of subconscious or systemic bias and improve criminal justice outcomes for Black Americans.

ETA: And given that Black males being incarcerated at nearly seven times the rate of white males is a critical social concern impacting not just actual offenders, but also the wrongly accused, the families, and all our communities, this should be something we're all striving for. It doesn't just benefit Black Americans, it benefits all of us.


Spoken like a true Marxist........not recognizing the eventual outcome of totalitarianism. and...........YES, they are both the same in the end. Betting you've got at least a couple of BLM T's in the drawers.

Nice chatting with you, roboheel.
Packchem91
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PackFansXL said:

https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565

Quote:

"Systemic racism includes the complex array of antiblack practices, the unjustly gained political-economic power of whites, the continuing economic and other resource inequalities along racial lines, and the white racist ideologies and attitudes created to maintain and rationalize white privilege and power. Systemic here means that the core racist realities are manifested in each of society's major parts [...] each major part of U.S. society the economy, politics, education, religion, the family reflects the fundamental reality of systemic racism."
The quote above is from the inventor of the systemic racism term, Joe Feagin. The link is to a site that attempts to define terms that are supposed to be current problems but examples all sound like behavior that was outlawed decades ago.


I mean, if the term systemic bothers you, what term do you want to give it?

Do you disagree with the conditions Civil outlined? If we assume they are all true, is that an issue to you? And if it's not "systemic ", what is it?

To be clear, because you started this topic with your statement that Biden called you and other white males racist. The conditions Civil lay out don't make you racist. Bit ignoring them, or as Cary says "just have to live with it"…that at least suggests we're ok with them because it's not us being impacted
Packchem91
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PackFansXL said:

https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565

Quote:

"Systemic racism includes the complex array of antiblack practices, the unjustly gained political-economic power of whites, the continuing economic and other resource inequalities along racial lines, and the white racist ideologies and attitudes created to maintain and rationalize white privilege and power. Systemic here means that the core racist realities are manifested in each of society's major parts [...] each major part of U.S. society the economy, politics, education, religion, the family reflects the fundamental reality of systemic racism."
The quote above is from the inventor of the systemic racism term, Joe Feagin. The link is to a site that attempts to define terms that are supposed to be current problems but examples all sound like behavior that was outlawed decades ago.


Sorry, double post
Oldsouljer
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Packchem91 said:

Steve Videtich said:

Just asking, not trying to flame. Do you think racism exists in the other direction?


Yes. There is plenty of prejudice against white people. But I think what we're discussing is really "by those in power" - hiring, policing, sentencing, educating, etc. And in this country, the people in power, in general are white.

I mean, I think this country also has a pretty evident history of racism against Native Americans. Is there a return of that racism by today's tribe? Well I'm pretty sure many of them despise all white people. But do they have power to make a difference? I'd say very limited?
My observations in the military were that going back decades, being white meant dealing with systemic bias to get promotions. They called it Equal Opportunity but everyone knew it was really Affirmative Action, i.e., that promotion boards had an unspoken quota to meet, there were only so many promotion slots available, and requiring a photograph of each candidate presented to the board was not for the official reason that the board needed to know that a selectee was not overweight.
PackFansXL
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Packchem91 said:

PackFansXL said:

https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565

Quote:

"Systemic racism includes the complex array of antiblack practices, the unjustly gained political-economic power of whites, the continuing economic and other resource inequalities along racial lines, and the white racist ideologies and attitudes created to maintain and rationalize white privilege and power. Systemic here means that the core racist realities are manifested in each of society's major parts [...] each major part of U.S. society the economy, politics, education, religion, the family reflects the fundamental reality of systemic racism."
The quote above is from the inventor of the systemic racism term, Joe Feagin. The link is to a site that attempts to define terms that are supposed to be current problems but examples all sound like behavior that was outlawed decades ago.
I mean, if the term systemic bothers you, what term do you want to give it?

Do you disagree with the conditions Civil outlined? If we assume they are all true, is that an issue to you? And if it's not "systemic ", what is it?

To be clear, because you started this topic with your statement that Biden called you and other white males racist. The conditions Civil lay out don't make you racist. Bit ignoring them, or as Cary says "just have to live with it"…that at least suggests we're ok with them because it's not us being impacted
To me racism refers to actively trying to suppress the rights of someone based solely on their skin color. To a sociologist, racism has a much broader definition which is why I posted it. By the sociologist's definition of the term, any experiential based observations categorized using skin color as one element of a working conclusion is racist. With that definition, everyone is racist just as the Bible teaches that everyone is a sinner. It is unavoidable. Attempting to gain political power while declaring your opponents are racist using the sociologist's terminology is hypocritical and dishonest because by that definition everyone is racist including the politician claiming to be morally superior.
Civilized
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PackFansXL said:

Packchem91 said:

PackFansXL said:

https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565

Quote:

"Systemic racism includes the complex array of antiblack practices, the unjustly gained political-economic power of whites, the continuing economic and other resource inequalities along racial lines, and the white racist ideologies and attitudes created to maintain and rationalize white privilege and power. Systemic here means that the core racist realities are manifested in each of society's major parts [...] each major part of U.S. society the economy, politics, education, religion, the family reflects the fundamental reality of systemic racism."
The quote above is from the inventor of the systemic racism term, Joe Feagin. The link is to a site that attempts to define terms that are supposed to be current problems but examples all sound like behavior that was outlawed decades ago.
I mean, if the term systemic bothers you, what term do you want to give it?

Do you disagree with the conditions Civil outlined? If we assume they are all true, is that an issue to you? And if it's not "systemic ", what is it?

To be clear, because you started this topic with your statement that Biden called you and other white males racist. The conditions Civil lay out don't make you racist. Bit ignoring them, or as Cary says "just have to live with it"…that at least suggests we're ok with them because it's not us being impacted
To me racism refers to actively trying to suppress the rights of someone based solely on their skin color. To a sociologist, racism has a much broader definition which is why I posted it. By the sociologist's definition of the term, any experiential based observations categorized using skin color as one element of a working conclusion is racist. With that definition, everyone is racist just as the Bible teaches that everyone is a sinner. It is unavoidable. Attempting to gain political power while declaring your opponents are racist using the sociologist's terminology is hypocritical and dishonest because by that definition everyone is racist including the politician claiming to be morally superior.

Obviously you're triggered by the word, so use whatever word you want to describe different (worse) outcomes for Black Americans vs. White Americans in criminal justice.

Is there a reason to not try and square the playing field so that black and white Americans are pulled over at the same rate, charged at the same rate (when the crimes they are accused of are similar), convicted at the same rate (when the crimes they're accused of are similar), sentenced at a similar severity (when the crimes they're convicted of are similar), paroled as frequently (when the crimes they're convicted of are similar), etc.

Because those are real problems, and they're the problems people are talking about when they talk about implicit bias and systemic racism. So if the words bias, racism, privilege, etc. bother you pick other words but let's stop being distracted by the words and focus instead on the actual and obvious challenges.
Packchem91
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PackFansXL said:

Packchem91 said:

PackFansXL said:

https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565

Quote:

"Systemic racism includes the complex array of antiblack practices, the unjustly gained political-economic power of whites, the continuing economic and other resource inequalities along racial lines, and the white racist ideologies and attitudes created to maintain and rationalize white privilege and power. Systemic here means that the core racist realities are manifested in each of society's major parts [...] each major part of U.S. society the economy, politics, education, religion, the family reflects the fundamental reality of systemic racism."
The quote above is from the inventor of the systemic racism term, Joe Feagin. The link is to a site that attempts to define terms that are supposed to be current problems but examples all sound like behavior that was outlawed decades ago.
I mean, if the term systemic bothers you, what term do you want to give it?

Do you disagree with the conditions Civil outlined? If we assume they are all true, is that an issue to you? And if it's not "systemic ", what is it?

To be clear, because you started this topic with your statement that Biden called you and other white males racist. The conditions Civil lay out don't make you racist. Bit ignoring them, or as Cary says "just have to live with it"…that at least suggests we're ok with them because it's not us being impacted
To me racism refers to actively trying to suppress the rights of someone based solely on their skin color. To a sociologist, racism has a much broader definition which is why I posted it. By the sociologist's definition of the term, any experiential based observations categorized using skin color as one element of a working conclusion is racist. With that definition, everyone is racist just as the Bible teaches that everyone is a sinner. It is unavoidable. Attempting to gain political power while declaring your opponents are racist using the sociologist's terminology is hypocritical and dishonest because by that definition everyone is racist including the politician claiming to be morally superior.


You are caught up in the definition. Real simple - if the numbers are as biased as indicated, so you think that is an issue? And should we actually try to do something? Or just wait for a few generations and hope it works itself out
hokiewolf
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Civilized said:

PackFansXL said:

Packchem91 said:

PackFansXL said:

https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565

Quote:

"Systemic racism includes the complex array of antiblack practices, the unjustly gained political-economic power of whites, the continuing economic and other resource inequalities along racial lines, and the white racist ideologies and attitudes created to maintain and rationalize white privilege and power. Systemic here means that the core racist realities are manifested in each of society's major parts [...] each major part of U.S. society the economy, politics, education, religion, the family reflects the fundamental reality of systemic racism."
The quote above is from the inventor of the systemic racism term, Joe Feagin. The link is to a site that attempts to define terms that are supposed to be current problems but examples all sound like behavior that was outlawed decades ago.
I mean, if the term systemic bothers you, what term do you want to give it?

Do you disagree with the conditions Civil outlined? If we assume they are all true, is that an issue to you? And if it's not "systemic ", what is it?

To be clear, because you started this topic with your statement that Biden called you and other white males racist. The conditions Civil lay out don't make you racist. Bit ignoring them, or as Cary says "just have to live with it"…that at least suggests we're ok with them because it's not us being impacted
To me racism refers to actively trying to suppress the rights of someone based solely on their skin color. To a sociologist, racism has a much broader definition which is why I posted it. By the sociologist's definition of the term, any experiential based observations categorized using skin color as one element of a working conclusion is racist. With that definition, everyone is racist just as the Bible teaches that everyone is a sinner. It is unavoidable. Attempting to gain political power while declaring your opponents are racist using the sociologist's terminology is hypocritical and dishonest because by that definition everyone is racist including the politician claiming to be morally superior.

Obviously you're triggered by the word, so use whatever word you want to describe different (worse) outcomes for Black Americans vs. White Americans in criminal justice.

Is there a reason to not try and square the playing field so that black and white Americans are pulled over at the same rate, charged at the same rate (when the crimes they are accused of are similar), convicted at the same rate (when the crimes they're accused of are similar), sentenced at a similar severity (when the crimes they're convicted of are similar), paroled as frequently (when the crimes they're convicted of are similar), etc.

Because those are real problems, and they're the problems people are talking about when they talk about implicit bias and systemic racism. So if the words bias, racism, privilege, etc. bother you pick other words but let's stop being distracted by the words and focus instead on the actual and obvious challenges.
I don't think you're going to accomplish what you want to accomplish by condemning the entire system as systemically racist, because it's not.
Steve Videtich
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hokiewolf said:

Civilized said:

PackFansXL said:

Packchem91 said:

PackFansXL said:

https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565

Quote:

"Systemic racism includes the complex array of antiblack practices, the unjustly gained political-economic power of whites, the continuing economic and other resource inequalities along racial lines, and the white racist ideologies and attitudes created to maintain and rationalize white privilege and power. Systemic here means that the core racist realities are manifested in each of society's major parts [...] each major part of U.S. society the economy, politics, education, religion, the family reflects the fundamental reality of systemic racism."
The quote above is from the inventor of the systemic racism term, Joe Feagin. The link is to a site that attempts to define terms that are supposed to be current problems but examples all sound like behavior that was outlawed decades ago.
I mean, if the term systemic bothers you, what term do you want to give it?

Do you disagree with the conditions Civil outlined? If we assume they are all true, is that an issue to you? And if it's not "systemic ", what is it?

To be clear, because you started this topic with your statement that Biden called you and other white males racist. The conditions Civil lay out don't make you racist. Bit ignoring them, or as Cary says "just have to live with it"…that at least suggests we're ok with them because it's not us being impacted
To me racism refers to actively trying to suppress the rights of someone based solely on their skin color. To a sociologist, racism has a much broader definition which is why I posted it. By the sociologist's definition of the term, any experiential based observations categorized using skin color as one element of a working conclusion is racist. With that definition, everyone is racist just as the Bible teaches that everyone is a sinner. It is unavoidable. Attempting to gain political power while declaring your opponents are racist using the sociologist's terminology is hypocritical and dishonest because by that definition everyone is racist including the politician claiming to be morally superior.

Obviously you're triggered by the word, so use whatever word you want to describe different (worse) outcomes for Black Americans vs. White Americans in criminal justice.

Is there a reason to not try and square the playing field so that black and white Americans are pulled over at the same rate, charged at the same rate (when the crimes they are accused of are similar), convicted at the same rate (when the crimes they're accused of are similar), sentenced at a similar severity (when the crimes they're convicted of are similar), paroled as frequently (when the crimes they're convicted of are similar), etc.

Because those are real problems, and they're the problems people are talking about when they talk about implicit bias and systemic racism. So if the words bias, racism, privilege, etc. bother you pick other words but let's stop being distracted by the words and focus instead on the actual and obvious challenges.
I don't think you're going to accomplish what you want to accomplish by condemning the entire system as systemically racist, because it's not.


Agreed. Condemning everything and anyone involved in the system is two wrongs trying to make a right. Yes, things need to get better. They have gotten better, maybe not as much as we would like to think. But, they have gotten better. Biden and his hate filled rhetoric of Him Crow 2.0 and such declarations don't help the country come together and work toward that.
Packchem91
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Oldsouljer said:

Packchem91 said:

Steve Videtich said:

Just asking, not trying to flame. Do you think racism exists in the other direction?


Yes. There is plenty of prejudice against white people. But I think what we're discussing is really "by those in power" - hiring, policing, sentencing, educating, etc. And in this country, the people in power, in general are white.

I mean, I think this country also has a pretty evident history of racism against Native Americans. Is there a return of that racism by today's tribe? Well I'm pretty sure many of them despise all white people. But do they have power to make a difference? I'd say very limited?
My observations in the military were that going back decades, being white meant dealing with systemic bias to get promotions. They called it Equal Opportunity but everyone knew it was really Affirmative Action, i.e., that promotion boards had an unspoken quota to meet, there were only so many promotion slots available, and requiring a photograph of each candidate presented to the board was not for the official reason that the board needed to know that a selectee was not overweight.



I get it. I acknowledge there are surely areas where "corrections" went overboard. Probably schools have offered scholarships that have been similarly impacted. Some want to even things out, which can cause issues. I think offering equal opportunity is fair, but not to the degree that it excludes based on the same conditions you're trying to address.
I work in a major corporation as a manager and I know there are continual conversation/education to interview (not hire) minority candidates and to ensure if there is a review panel taht the pane include a minority. I think both of those seem extremely reasonable ways to lower the chances of built in bias in the hiring decision. I've hired a number of people, but never felt one bit of pressure to hire a person of color from those above me or corporate policy. I've always hired what I thought were the best candidates, amd it just so happens that has included white, black, Hispanic, men, women, veterans, older, and gay.
Packchem91
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hokiewolf said:

Civilized said:

PackFansXL said:

Packchem91 said:

PackFansXL said:

https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565

Quote:

"Systemic racism includes the complex array of antiblack practices, the unjustly gained political-economic power of whites, the continuing economic and other resource inequalities along racial lines, and the white racist ideologies and attitudes created to maintain and rationalize white privilege and power. Systemic here means that the core racist realities are manifested in each of society's major parts [...] each major part of U.S. society the economy, politics, education, religion, the family reflects the fundamental reality of systemic racism."
The quote above is from the inventor of the systemic racism term, Joe Feagin. The link is to a site that attempts to define terms that are supposed to be current problems but examples all sound like behavior that was outlawed decades ago.
I mean, if the term systemic bothers you, what term do you want to give it?

Do you disagree with the conditions Civil outlined? If we assume they are all true, is that an issue to you? And if it's not "systemic ", what is it?

To be clear, because you started this topic with your statement that Biden called you and other white males racist. The conditions Civil lay out don't make you racist. Bit ignoring them, or as Cary says "just have to live with it"…that at least suggests we're ok with them because it's not us being impacted
To me racism refers to actively trying to suppress the rights of someone based solely on their skin color. To a sociologist, racism has a much broader definition which is why I posted it. By the sociologist's definition of the term, any experiential based observations categorized using skin color as one element of a working conclusion is racist. With that definition, everyone is racist just as the Bible teaches that everyone is a sinner. It is unavoidable. Attempting to gain political power while declaring your opponents are racist using the sociologist's terminology is hypocritical and dishonest because by that definition everyone is racist including the politician claiming to be morally superior.

Obviously you're triggered by the word, so use whatever word you want to describe different (worse) outcomes for Black Americans vs. White Americans in criminal justice.

Is there a reason to not try and square the playing field so that black and white Americans are pulled over at the same rate, charged at the same rate (when the crimes they are accused of are similar), convicted at the same rate (when the crimes they're accused of are similar), sentenced at a similar severity (when the crimes they're convicted of are similar), paroled as frequently (when the crimes they're convicted of are similar), etc.

Because those are real problems, and they're the problems people are talking about when they talk about implicit bias and systemic racism. So if the words bias, racism, privilege, etc. bother you pick other words but let's stop being distracted by the words and focus instead on the actual and obvious challenges.
I don't think you're going to accomplish what you want to accomplish by condemning the entire system as systemically racist, because it's not.


And I'm happy to come up with another word so as to not hurt peoples feelings. Amd I acknowledge some terms are used to incite, inflame, influence, etc

So, make up your own terms…but we should address the issues that still exist
Werewolf
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Civilized said:

Werewolf said:

Civilized said:

caryking said:

Packchem91 said:

Steve Videtich said:

Packchem91 said:

Steve Videtich said:

Packchem91 said:

packgrad said:

I got stopped and frisked on the hood of my car in Durham for driving by a crime scene too many times. This nonsense about systemic racism because you know 3 black people is stupid.


LOL, How does driving by a crime scene too many times or actually being in a crime area equate to a black teen walking home into a nice neighborhood. Walking into your neighborhood. A nice one. That is the definition of profiling.

You guys can deny it all you want, but of course it exists. You want to focus on 3 (out of 3) people questioned, that's fine…since it's FB season, what do you think response you'd get if you questioned every one of our black players? We know… there's a reason Dave has been so supportive of the marches that Moore and other players have led on.
But sure, stick your head in the sand…that approach usually works .

Is it bettter than it was when we were all kids…absolutely. Are we rid of these tendencies, absolutely not.
Can that still mean Biden over plays his hand on these things because it plays to his left base….sure he does.

But it's awfully white to say "policing base on race doesn't exist" or, as Cary said, is ok.

Some of you are the same guys who've been crying for two years and talking "civil war" because you believe the government singles you out for your actions (not getting vaccinated, wearing masks, etc), but think there is no evidence that black people are still singled out.




Just asking for clarification. Are you saying ask all players if they've been profiled or if racism exists?
Well we know racism exists.

But PG doesn't accept my examples because I only asked the 3 black people who worked for me and they all had examples of family members who had been profiled and stopped (or searched additionally after stopped) despite there being no other evidence against them.

So yes, I'd be interested....if you polled the black team members on our FB team, or any other FB team, if they or there family members had ever been unreasonably stopped/searched in their lives....what % would agree?


**I get we will build in our own biases on what is reasonable.


I understand the the story you're telling about the 3 people you know. I guess my question is, do you think that these 3 people represent all people of color and therefore happens to just about everyone?

I shared a good portion of my life with people of color, and yes I've heard the stories similar to what you describe. They are real. Some were upset a great deal and carried that feeling with them throughout their lives. Others brushed it off as a stupid one off. And others never had an instance like that.

More recently I've talked to people of color who think the democrats have lost their damn minds. They think that Trump was a good person and happily voted for him. And they also think that many people of color need to get over themselves and take responsibility for their own actions.

I don't think anyone on here thinks racism doesn't exist, nor profiling. I think the issue is that we can't take every example or instance of bad actors and claim there is a "systemic" problem. That's kind of what you're doing with your 3 examples.

Yes, racism exists. Yes profiling exists. (Political profiling also) But, we need to call out the bad seeds that cause these instances. You can't burn the entire forest down. We are a far cry from where we were in the first half of the 20th century. But we are not perfect either. The more we get rid of the bad seeds, the better we will continue to grow in the right direction.


But if it is found in police departments all over the country and really, other then PG and a few others, who is going to argue it is isn't that the definition of systemic?

It's not just Florida, or San Fran, or the south, or Boston…it happens in all those places. Small cities, big cities.
At some point, isn't it more then just "a few bad actors"?

We can chalk up the Floyd murder as a few bad actors if you want, or any one specific instance like that, but when it's just things to bother people to let them know they have the power, etc, I would argue taht goes beyond bad apples and is systemic

Again, it's why Dave and other like minded coaches, are so supportive of these kids using their voices…it can make a difference.

Versus, as Cary says just put your head in the sand and wait.
Chem, I really question your ability to deal with life. As I've said above, racism is real, in this country, and it works both ways. My point is very simple…. You can't change people by changing laws. You have to change their heart. It's not going to 100% (probably never) until our society completely overturns through deaths and births.

Now, Chem, talk to your kids and let them know the truth. As I tell my own "white" kids… we have people in our society that are just mean and full of hate. They do not define who you are. You are a creation of God and only he, can define you, other than yourself.

So, Chem, all I'm saying is that I parent my kids the best I can. My kids can only control what they do. They can't control what others do. Also, nothing about this will be easy; however, you can allow yourself to be consumed by hate or focus your attention on the good that you bring.

Cary the goal of changing laws and procedures isn't to change people. It's to reduce or eliminate the impact of their negative biases or behavior on others.

Lots of white people are triggered by the idea of systemic racism for a variety of reasons. Steve hit on one of these - that "systemic racism" must mean everyone in the system (i.e. all cops, prosecutors, whoever) are explicitly racist. Other white people are just tired of hearing about anything that could even loosely be construed as "woke." Which is understandable but also unfortunate, since although some wokeness is just PC-culture-run-amok, there are still real problems in our systems and institutions that we need to continue to address.

The problem isn't that bad actors are policing or prosecuting and explicitly thinking to themselves, "How can I **** over a Black person today," it's that people's subconscious biases enter into their decisions in a way that's indefensibly bad for Black Americans.

Here are three easy examples we've discussed on here before.

According to the National Registry of Exonerations, Black people are 12x more likely to be wrongly convicted of drug crimes than whites.

As highlighted in Suspect Citizens: What 20 Million Traffic Stops Tell Us About Policing and Race, a book that assess the macro data from 14 years of traffic stops in NC, Black drivers are stopped by cops at 2x the rate of whites and searched at 4x the rate of whites, yet contraband is turned up at a rate that is lower than from white drivers.

And, as studied extensively, whites are charged with or convicted of crimes at a significantly lower rate than Black Americans even when the evidence presented to the prosecutor is similar (read about charging bias amongst prosecutors).

When you really dive into it you quickly realize that outcomes at every turn disfavor Black Americans - traffic stops, contraband searches, search-and-frisks, arrests, charges, jury bias, convictions, sentences, appeals, wrongful convictions, and paroles. Every single one.

This is where changing procedures can help minimize negative bias impacts without "changing people's hearts."

Increase police training on implicit bias so they stop pulling and searching Blacks at significantly disproportionate rates. Decriminalize or legalize marijuana, implement de-escalation training, implement blind prosecution. Change heavy-handed mandatory sentencing laws. Instruct and educate juries better to reduce jury bias.

There are quite a number of procudural changes that should enjoy bipartisan support that can reduce the impact of subconscious or systemic bias and improve criminal justice outcomes for Black Americans.

ETA: And given that Black males being incarcerated at nearly seven times the rate of white males is a critical social concern impacting not just actual offenders, but also the wrongly accused, the families, and all our communities, this should be something we're all striving for. It doesn't just benefit Black Americans, it benefits all of us.


Spoken like a true Marxist........not recognizing the eventual outcome of totalitarianism. and...........YES, they are both the same in the end. Betting you've got at least a couple of BLM T's in the drawers.

Nice chatting with you, roboheel.
LOL, I thought that would draw a response. A few more months of Biden and his NWO handlers and maybe you "WAKE UP"............but I doubt it.
Civilized
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hokiewolf said:

Civilized said:

PackFansXL said:

Packchem91 said:

PackFansXL said:

https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565

Quote:

"Systemic racism includes the complex array of antiblack practices, the unjustly gained political-economic power of whites, the continuing economic and other resource inequalities along racial lines, and the white racist ideologies and attitudes created to maintain and rationalize white privilege and power. Systemic here means that the core racist realities are manifested in each of society's major parts [...] each major part of U.S. society the economy, politics, education, religion, the family reflects the fundamental reality of systemic racism."
The quote above is from the inventor of the systemic racism term, Joe Feagin. The link is to a site that attempts to define terms that are supposed to be current problems but examples all sound like behavior that was outlawed decades ago.
I mean, if the term systemic bothers you, what term do you want to give it?

Do you disagree with the conditions Civil outlined? If we assume they are all true, is that an issue to you? And if it's not "systemic ", what is it?

To be clear, because you started this topic with your statement that Biden called you and other white males racist. The conditions Civil lay out don't make you racist. Bit ignoring them, or as Cary says "just have to live with it"…that at least suggests we're ok with them because it's not us being impacted
To me racism refers to actively trying to suppress the rights of someone based solely on their skin color. To a sociologist, racism has a much broader definition which is why I posted it. By the sociologist's definition of the term, any experiential based observations categorized using skin color as one element of a working conclusion is racist. With that definition, everyone is racist just as the Bible teaches that everyone is a sinner. It is unavoidable. Attempting to gain political power while declaring your opponents are racist using the sociologist's terminology is hypocritical and dishonest because by that definition everyone is racist including the politician claiming to be morally superior.

Obviously you're triggered by the word, so use whatever word you want to describe different (worse) outcomes for Black Americans vs. White Americans in criminal justice.

Is there a reason to not try and square the playing field so that black and white Americans are pulled over at the same rate, charged at the same rate (when the crimes they are accused of are similar), convicted at the same rate (when the crimes they're accused of are similar), sentenced at a similar severity (when the crimes they're convicted of are similar), paroled as frequently (when the crimes they're convicted of are similar), etc.

Because those are real problems, and they're the problems people are talking about when they talk about implicit bias and systemic racism. So if the words bias, racism, privilege, etc. bother you pick other words but let's stop being distracted by the words and focus instead on the actual and obvious challenges.
I don't think you're going to accomplish what you want to accomplish by condemning the entire system as systemically racist, because it's not.

Like I said, then use different vernacular. I don't care what it's called.

Again, it's fairly easy to specifically define the problems without condemning anything or trying to lay blame.
hokiewolf
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Packchem91 said:

hokiewolf said:

Civilized said:

PackFansXL said:

Packchem91 said:

PackFansXL said:

https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565

Quote:

"Systemic racism includes the complex array of antiblack practices, the unjustly gained political-economic power of whites, the continuing economic and other resource inequalities along racial lines, and the white racist ideologies and attitudes created to maintain and rationalize white privilege and power. Systemic here means that the core racist realities are manifested in each of society's major parts [...] each major part of U.S. society the economy, politics, education, religion, the family reflects the fundamental reality of systemic racism."
The quote above is from the inventor of the systemic racism term, Joe Feagin. The link is to a site that attempts to define terms that are supposed to be current problems but examples all sound like behavior that was outlawed decades ago.
I mean, if the term systemic bothers you, what term do you want to give it?

Do you disagree with the conditions Civil outlined? If we assume they are all true, is that an issue to you? And if it's not "systemic ", what is it?

To be clear, because you started this topic with your statement that Biden called you and other white males racist. The conditions Civil lay out don't make you racist. Bit ignoring them, or as Cary says "just have to live with it"…that at least suggests we're ok with them because it's not us being impacted
To me racism refers to actively trying to suppress the rights of someone based solely on their skin color. To a sociologist, racism has a much broader definition which is why I posted it. By the sociologist's definition of the term, any experiential based observations categorized using skin color as one element of a working conclusion is racist. With that definition, everyone is racist just as the Bible teaches that everyone is a sinner. It is unavoidable. Attempting to gain political power while declaring your opponents are racist using the sociologist's terminology is hypocritical and dishonest because by that definition everyone is racist including the politician claiming to be morally superior.

Obviously you're triggered by the word, so use whatever word you want to describe different (worse) outcomes for Black Americans vs. White Americans in criminal justice.

Is there a reason to not try and square the playing field so that black and white Americans are pulled over at the same rate, charged at the same rate (when the crimes they are accused of are similar), convicted at the same rate (when the crimes they're accused of are similar), sentenced at a similar severity (when the crimes they're convicted of are similar), paroled as frequently (when the crimes they're convicted of are similar), etc.

Because those are real problems, and they're the problems people are talking about when they talk about implicit bias and systemic racism. So if the words bias, racism, privilege, etc. bother you pick other words but let's stop being distracted by the words and focus instead on the actual and obvious challenges.
I don't think you're going to accomplish what you want to accomplish by condemning the entire system as systemically racist, because it's not.


And I'm happy to come up with another word so as to not hurt peoples feelings. Amd I acknowledge some terms are used to incite, inflame, influence, etc

So, make up your own terms…but we should address the issues that still exist
it's not the terms,
It's the overall starting approach that is the issue.

If you want to solve a problem legitimately, don't put your "adversary" on the defensive to begin with. You're basically saying "we all know the current system was designed to produce a bias and is immoral, so how do we fix it?"

Now I have to defend the system and we don't attack the issue.
Civilized
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Werewolf said:

Civilized said:

Werewolf said:

Civilized said:

caryking said:

Packchem91 said:

Steve Videtich said:

Packchem91 said:

Steve Videtich said:

Packchem91 said:

packgrad said:

I got stopped and frisked on the hood of my car in Durham for driving by a crime scene too many times. This nonsense about systemic racism because you know 3 black people is stupid.


LOL, How does driving by a crime scene too many times or actually being in a crime area equate to a black teen walking home into a nice neighborhood. Walking into your neighborhood. A nice one. That is the definition of profiling.

You guys can deny it all you want, but of course it exists. You want to focus on 3 (out of 3) people questioned, that's fine…since it's FB season, what do you think response you'd get if you questioned every one of our black players? We know… there's a reason Dave has been so supportive of the marches that Moore and other players have led on.
But sure, stick your head in the sand…that approach usually works .

Is it bettter than it was when we were all kids…absolutely. Are we rid of these tendencies, absolutely not.
Can that still mean Biden over plays his hand on these things because it plays to his left base….sure he does.

But it's awfully white to say "policing base on race doesn't exist" or, as Cary said, is ok.

Some of you are the same guys who've been crying for two years and talking "civil war" because you believe the government singles you out for your actions (not getting vaccinated, wearing masks, etc), but think there is no evidence that black people are still singled out.




Just asking for clarification. Are you saying ask all players if they've been profiled or if racism exists?
Well we know racism exists.

But PG doesn't accept my examples because I only asked the 3 black people who worked for me and they all had examples of family members who had been profiled and stopped (or searched additionally after stopped) despite there being no other evidence against them.

So yes, I'd be interested....if you polled the black team members on our FB team, or any other FB team, if they or there family members had ever been unreasonably stopped/searched in their lives....what % would agree?


**I get we will build in our own biases on what is reasonable.


I understand the the story you're telling about the 3 people you know. I guess my question is, do you think that these 3 people represent all people of color and therefore happens to just about everyone?

I shared a good portion of my life with people of color, and yes I've heard the stories similar to what you describe. They are real. Some were upset a great deal and carried that feeling with them throughout their lives. Others brushed it off as a stupid one off. And others never had an instance like that.

More recently I've talked to people of color who think the democrats have lost their damn minds. They think that Trump was a good person and happily voted for him. And they also think that many people of color need to get over themselves and take responsibility for their own actions.

I don't think anyone on here thinks racism doesn't exist, nor profiling. I think the issue is that we can't take every example or instance of bad actors and claim there is a "systemic" problem. That's kind of what you're doing with your 3 examples.

Yes, racism exists. Yes profiling exists. (Political profiling also) But, we need to call out the bad seeds that cause these instances. You can't burn the entire forest down. We are a far cry from where we were in the first half of the 20th century. But we are not perfect either. The more we get rid of the bad seeds, the better we will continue to grow in the right direction.


But if it is found in police departments all over the country and really, other then PG and a few others, who is going to argue it is isn't that the definition of systemic?

It's not just Florida, or San Fran, or the south, or Boston…it happens in all those places. Small cities, big cities.
At some point, isn't it more then just "a few bad actors"?

We can chalk up the Floyd murder as a few bad actors if you want, or any one specific instance like that, but when it's just things to bother people to let them know they have the power, etc, I would argue taht goes beyond bad apples and is systemic

Again, it's why Dave and other like minded coaches, are so supportive of these kids using their voices…it can make a difference.

Versus, as Cary says just put your head in the sand and wait.
Chem, I really question your ability to deal with life. As I've said above, racism is real, in this country, and it works both ways. My point is very simple…. You can't change people by changing laws. You have to change their heart. It's not going to 100% (probably never) until our society completely overturns through deaths and births.

Now, Chem, talk to your kids and let them know the truth. As I tell my own "white" kids… we have people in our society that are just mean and full of hate. They do not define who you are. You are a creation of God and only he, can define you, other than yourself.

So, Chem, all I'm saying is that I parent my kids the best I can. My kids can only control what they do. They can't control what others do. Also, nothing about this will be easy; however, you can allow yourself to be consumed by hate or focus your attention on the good that you bring.

Cary the goal of changing laws and procedures isn't to change people. It's to reduce or eliminate the impact of their negative biases or behavior on others.

Lots of white people are triggered by the idea of systemic racism for a variety of reasons. Steve hit on one of these - that "systemic racism" must mean everyone in the system (i.e. all cops, prosecutors, whoever) are explicitly racist. Other white people are just tired of hearing about anything that could even loosely be construed as "woke." Which is understandable but also unfortunate, since although some wokeness is just PC-culture-run-amok, there are still real problems in our systems and institutions that we need to continue to address.

The problem isn't that bad actors are policing or prosecuting and explicitly thinking to themselves, "How can I **** over a Black person today," it's that people's subconscious biases enter into their decisions in a way that's indefensibly bad for Black Americans.

Here are three easy examples we've discussed on here before.

According to the National Registry of Exonerations, Black people are 12x more likely to be wrongly convicted of drug crimes than whites.

As highlighted in Suspect Citizens: What 20 Million Traffic Stops Tell Us About Policing and Race, a book that assess the macro data from 14 years of traffic stops in NC, Black drivers are stopped by cops at 2x the rate of whites and searched at 4x the rate of whites, yet contraband is turned up at a rate that is lower than from white drivers.

And, as studied extensively, whites are charged with or convicted of crimes at a significantly lower rate than Black Americans even when the evidence presented to the prosecutor is similar (read about charging bias amongst prosecutors).

When you really dive into it you quickly realize that outcomes at every turn disfavor Black Americans - traffic stops, contraband searches, search-and-frisks, arrests, charges, jury bias, convictions, sentences, appeals, wrongful convictions, and paroles. Every single one.

This is where changing procedures can help minimize negative bias impacts without "changing people's hearts."

Increase police training on implicit bias so they stop pulling and searching Blacks at significantly disproportionate rates. Decriminalize or legalize marijuana, implement de-escalation training, implement blind prosecution. Change heavy-handed mandatory sentencing laws. Instruct and educate juries better to reduce jury bias.

There are quite a number of procudural changes that should enjoy bipartisan support that can reduce the impact of subconscious or systemic bias and improve criminal justice outcomes for Black Americans.

ETA: And given that Black males being incarcerated at nearly seven times the rate of white males is a critical social concern impacting not just actual offenders, but also the wrongly accused, the families, and all our communities, this should be something we're all striving for. It doesn't just benefit Black Americans, it benefits all of us.


Spoken like a true Marxist........not recognizing the eventual outcome of totalitarianism. and...........YES, they are both the same in the end. Betting you've got at least a couple of BLM T's in the drawers.

Nice chatting with you, roboheel.
LOL, I thought that would draw a response. A few more months of Biden and his NWO handlers and maybe you "WAKE UP"............but I doubt it.

I've already said on here repeatedly that Biden sucks.

So what would "waking up" look like?
Packchem91
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hokiewolf said:

Packchem91 said:

hokiewolf said:

Civilized said:

PackFansXL said:

Packchem91 said:

PackFansXL said:

https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565

Quote:

"Systemic racism includes the complex array of antiblack practices, the unjustly gained political-economic power of whites, the continuing economic and other resource inequalities along racial lines, and the white racist ideologies and attitudes created to maintain and rationalize white privilege and power. Systemic here means that the core racist realities are manifested in each of society's major parts [...] each major part of U.S. society the economy, politics, education, religion, the family reflects the fundamental reality of systemic racism."
The quote above is from the inventor of the systemic racism term, Joe Feagin. The link is to a site that attempts to define terms that are supposed to be current problems but examples all sound like behavior that was outlawed decades ago.
I mean, if the term systemic bothers you, what term do you want to give it?

Do you disagree with the conditions Civil outlined? If we assume they are all true, is that an issue to you? And if it's not "systemic ", what is it?

To be clear, because you started this topic with your statement that Biden called you and other white males racist. The conditions Civil lay out don't make you racist. Bit ignoring them, or as Cary says "just have to live with it"…that at least suggests we're ok with them because it's not us being impacted
To me racism refers to actively trying to suppress the rights of someone based solely on their skin color. To a sociologist, racism has a much broader definition which is why I posted it. By the sociologist's definition of the term, any experiential based observations categorized using skin color as one element of a working conclusion is racist. With that definition, everyone is racist just as the Bible teaches that everyone is a sinner. It is unavoidable. Attempting to gain political power while declaring your opponents are racist using the sociologist's terminology is hypocritical and dishonest because by that definition everyone is racist including the politician claiming to be morally superior.

Obviously you're triggered by the word, so use whatever word you want to describe different (worse) outcomes for Black Americans vs. White Americans in criminal justice.

Is there a reason to not try and square the playing field so that black and white Americans are pulled over at the same rate, charged at the same rate (when the crimes they are accused of are similar), convicted at the same rate (when the crimes they're accused of are similar), sentenced at a similar severity (when the crimes they're convicted of are similar), paroled as frequently (when the crimes they're convicted of are similar), etc.

Because those are real problems, and they're the problems people are talking about when they talk about implicit bias and systemic racism. So if the words bias, racism, privilege, etc. bother you pick other words but let's stop being distracted by the words and focus instead on the actual and obvious challenges.
I don't think you're going to accomplish what you want to accomplish by condemning the entire system as systemically racist, because it's not.


And I'm happy to come up with another word so as to not hurt peoples feelings. Amd I acknowledge some terms are used to incite, inflame, influence, etc

So, make up your own terms…but we should address the issues that still exist
it's not the terms,
It's the overall starting approach that is the issue.

If you want to solve a problem legitimately, don't put your "adversary" on the defensive to begin with. You're basically saying "we all know the current system was designed to produce a bias and is immoral, so how do we fix it?"

Now I have to defend the system and we don't attack the issue.


Why defend the system that is producing such results? Why not acknowledge amd work to fix it?

A lot of the people so defensive here (not you) are ones who say DC (a system) is broken.

I get being upset Biden is throwing It in the face. How should he approach it ?
PackFansXL
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Packchem91 said:

PackFansXL said:

Packchem91 said:

PackFansXL said:

https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565

Quote:

"Systemic racism includes the complex array of antiblack practices, the unjustly gained political-economic power of whites, the continuing economic and other resource inequalities along racial lines, and the white racist ideologies and attitudes created to maintain and rationalize white privilege and power. Systemic here means that the core racist realities are manifested in each of society's major parts [...] each major part of U.S. society the economy, politics, education, religion, the family reflects the fundamental reality of systemic racism."
The quote above is from the inventor of the systemic racism term, Joe Feagin. The link is to a site that attempts to define terms that are supposed to be current problems but examples all sound like behavior that was outlawed decades ago.
I mean, if the term systemic bothers you, what term do you want to give it?

Do you disagree with the conditions Civil outlined? If we assume they are all true, is that an issue to you? And if it's not "systemic ", what is it?

To be clear, because you started this topic with your statement that Biden called you and other white males racist. The conditions Civil lay out don't make you racist. Bit ignoring them, or as Cary says "just have to live with it"…that at least suggests we're ok with them because it's not us being impacted
To me racism refers to actively trying to suppress the rights of someone based solely on their skin color. To a sociologist, racism has a much broader definition which is why I posted it. By the sociologist's definition of the term, any experiential based observations categorized using skin color as one element of a working conclusion is racist. With that definition, everyone is racist just as the Bible teaches that everyone is a sinner. It is unavoidable. Attempting to gain political power while declaring your opponents are racist using the sociologist's terminology is hypocritical and dishonest because by that definition everyone is racist including the politician claiming to be morally superior.
You are caught up in the definition. Real simple - if the numbers are as biased as indicated, so you think that is an issue? And should we actually try to do something? Or just wait for a few generations and hope it works itself out
I am using the precise term used by Biden to demean his political opponents. I researched the most authentic definition I could find in an attempt to explain why I find his use of it so offensive. He is using terminology that inherently implicates everyone while pretending to be morally superior to his opponents. This is what is wrong with the current Democratic party. They have weaponized race for purely selfish political reasons. Race is not inherently a political exclusivity. It has no place in politics. Biden is blatantly dishonest and deserves to be booted ASAP.
Steve Videtich
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Packchem91 said:

hokiewolf said:

Packchem91 said:

hokiewolf said:

Civilized said:

PackFansXL said:

Packchem91 said:

PackFansXL said:

https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565

Quote:

"Systemic racism includes the complex array of antiblack practices, the unjustly gained political-economic power of whites, the continuing economic and other resource inequalities along racial lines, and the white racist ideologies and attitudes created to maintain and rationalize white privilege and power. Systemic here means that the core racist realities are manifested in each of society's major parts [...] each major part of U.S. society the economy, politics, education, religion, the family reflects the fundamental reality of systemic racism."
The quote above is from the inventor of the systemic racism term, Joe Feagin. The link is to a site that attempts to define terms that are supposed to be current problems but examples all sound like behavior that was outlawed decades ago.
I mean, if the term systemic bothers you, what term do you want to give it?

Do you disagree with the conditions Civil outlined? If we assume they are all true, is that an issue to you? And if it's not "systemic ", what is it?

To be clear, because you started this topic with your statement that Biden called you and other white males racist. The conditions Civil lay out don't make you racist. Bit ignoring them, or as Cary says "just have to live with it"…that at least suggests we're ok with them because it's not us being impacted
To me racism refers to actively trying to suppress the rights of someone based solely on their skin color. To a sociologist, racism has a much broader definition which is why I posted it. By the sociologist's definition of the term, any experiential based observations categorized using skin color as one element of a working conclusion is racist. With that definition, everyone is racist just as the Bible teaches that everyone is a sinner. It is unavoidable. Attempting to gain political power while declaring your opponents are racist using the sociologist's terminology is hypocritical and dishonest because by that definition everyone is racist including the politician claiming to be morally superior.

Obviously you're triggered by the word, so use whatever word you want to describe different (worse) outcomes for Black Americans vs. White Americans in criminal justice.

Is there a reason to not try and square the playing field so that black and white Americans are pulled over at the same rate, charged at the same rate (when the crimes they are accused of are similar), convicted at the same rate (when the crimes they're accused of are similar), sentenced at a similar severity (when the crimes they're convicted of are similar), paroled as frequently (when the crimes they're convicted of are similar), etc.

Because those are real problems, and they're the problems people are talking about when they talk about implicit bias and systemic racism. So if the words bias, racism, privilege, etc. bother you pick other words but let's stop being distracted by the words and focus instead on the actual and obvious challenges.
I don't think you're going to accomplish what you want to accomplish by condemning the entire system as systemically racist, because it's not.


And I'm happy to come up with another word so as to not hurt peoples feelings. Amd I acknowledge some terms are used to incite, inflame, influence, etc

So, make up your own terms…but we should address the issues that still exist
it's not the terms,
It's the overall starting approach that is the issue.

If you want to solve a problem legitimately, don't put your "adversary" on the defensive to begin with. You're basically saying "we all know the current system was designed to produce a bias and is immoral, so how do we fix it?"

Now I have to defend the system and we don't attack the issue.


Why defend the system that is producing such results? Why not acknowledge amd work to fix it?

A lot of the people so defensive here (not you) are ones who say DC (a system) is broken.

I get being upset Biden is throwing It in the face. How should he approach it ?


How about saying, "we've made great strides as a country in the last 70 years, but we still have work to do."
Werewolf
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Packchem91 said:

hokiewolf said:

Civilized said:

PackFansXL said:

Packchem91 said:

PackFansXL said:

https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565

Quote:

"Systemic racism includes the complex array of antiblack practices, the unjustly gained political-economic power of whites, the continuing economic and other resource inequalities along racial lines, and the white racist ideologies and attitudes created to maintain and rationalize white privilege and power. Systemic here means that the core racist realities are manifested in each of society's major parts [...] each major part of U.S. society the economy, politics, education, religion, the family reflects the fundamental reality of systemic racism."
The quote above is from the inventor of the systemic racism term, Joe Feagin. The link is to a site that attempts to define terms that are supposed to be current problems but examples all sound like behavior that was outlawed decades ago.
I mean, if the term systemic bothers you, what term do you want to give it?

Do you disagree with the conditions Civil outlined? If we assume they are all true, is that an issue to you? And if it's not "systemic ", what is it?

To be clear, because you started this topic with your statement that Biden called you and other white males racist. The conditions Civil lay out don't make you racist. Bit ignoring them, or as Cary says "just have to live with it"…that at least suggests we're ok with them because it's not us being impacted
To me racism refers to actively trying to suppress the rights of someone based solely on their skin color. To a sociologist, racism has a much broader definition which is why I posted it. By the sociologist's definition of the term, any experiential based observations categorized using skin color as one element of a working conclusion is racist. With that definition, everyone is racist just as the Bible teaches that everyone is a sinner. It is unavoidable. Attempting to gain political power while declaring your opponents are racist using the sociologist's terminology is hypocritical and dishonest because by that definition everyone is racist including the politician claiming to be morally superior.

Obviously you're triggered by the word, so use whatever word you want to describe different (worse) outcomes for Black Americans vs. White Americans in criminal justice.

Is there a reason to not try and square the playing field so that black and white Americans are pulled over at the same rate, charged at the same rate (when the crimes they are accused of are similar), convicted at the same rate (when the crimes they're accused of are similar), sentenced at a similar severity (when the crimes they're convicted of are similar), paroled as frequently (when the crimes they're convicted of are similar), etc.

Because those are real problems, and they're the problems people are talking about when they talk about implicit bias and systemic racism. So if the words bias, racism, privilege, etc. bother you pick other words but let's stop being distracted by the words and focus instead on the actual and obvious challenges.
I don't think you're going to accomplish what you want to accomplish by condemning the entire system as systemically racist, because it's not.


And I'm happy to come up with another word so as to not hurt peoples feelings. Amd I acknowledge some terms are used to incite, inflame, influence, etc

So, make up your own terms…but we should address the issues that still exist
We've come a long ways over the last 60 years. You're not going to squeeze every ounce of prejudice out of ever single person. You think its different elsewhere........around the globe. Don't take my freedoms and don't take my rights........with BIG BUREAUCRATIC GOVT ........under the auspices of helping others. Its a means to and end......the end of our freedoms.

WOKE is not AWAKE.........woke = totalitarianism in the end.

and you sure as he$$ aren't hurting my feelings. I see your ideas on this as a danger. But carry on........with your present freedom of speech. It has been taken away from me on social media platforms like Twitter and FB. You're not AWAKE yet......and when so......you'll find out too..
Packchem91
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Steve Videtich said:

Packchem91 said:

hokiewolf said:

Packchem91 said:

hokiewolf said:

Civilized said:

PackFansXL said:

Packchem91 said:

PackFansXL said:

https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565

Quote:

"Systemic racism includes the complex array of antiblack practices, the unjustly gained political-economic power of whites, the continuing economic and other resource inequalities along racial lines, and the white racist ideologies and attitudes created to maintain and rationalize white privilege and power. Systemic here means that the core racist realities are manifested in each of society's major parts [...] each major part of U.S. society the economy, politics, education, religion, the family reflects the fundamental reality of systemic racism."
The quote above is from the inventor of the systemic racism term, Joe Feagin. The link is to a site that attempts to define terms that are supposed to be current problems but examples all sound like behavior that was outlawed decades ago.
I mean, if the term systemic bothers you, what term do you want to give it?

Do you disagree with the conditions Civil outlined? If we assume they are all true, is that an issue to you? And if it's not "systemic ", what is it?

To be clear, because you started this topic with your statement that Biden called you and other white males racist. The conditions Civil lay out don't make you racist. Bit ignoring them, or as Cary says "just have to live with it"…that at least suggests we're ok with them because it's not us being impacted
To me racism refers to actively trying to suppress the rights of someone based solely on their skin color. To a sociologist, racism has a much broader definition which is why I posted it. By the sociologist's definition of the term, any experiential based observations categorized using skin color as one element of a working conclusion is racist. With that definition, everyone is racist just as the Bible teaches that everyone is a sinner. It is unavoidable. Attempting to gain political power while declaring your opponents are racist using the sociologist's terminology is hypocritical and dishonest because by that definition everyone is racist including the politician claiming to be morally superior.

Obviously you're triggered by the word, so use whatever word you want to describe different (worse) outcomes for Black Americans vs. White Americans in criminal justice.

Is there a reason to not try and square the playing field so that black and white Americans are pulled over at the same rate, charged at the same rate (when the crimes they are accused of are similar), convicted at the same rate (when the crimes they're accused of are similar), sentenced at a similar severity (when the crimes they're convicted of are similar), paroled as frequently (when the crimes they're convicted of are similar), etc.

Because those are real problems, and they're the problems people are talking about when they talk about implicit bias and systemic racism. So if the words bias, racism, privilege, etc. bother you pick other words but let's stop being distracted by the words and focus instead on the actual and obvious challenges.
I don't think you're going to accomplish what you want to accomplish by condemning the entire system as systemically racist, because it's not.


And I'm happy to come up with another word so as to not hurt peoples feelings. Amd I acknowledge some terms are used to incite, inflame, influence, etc

So, make up your own terms…but we should address the issues that still exist
it's not the terms,
It's the overall starting approach that is the issue.

If you want to solve a problem legitimately, don't put your "adversary" on the defensive to begin with. You're basically saying "we all know the current system was designed to produce a bias and is immoral, so how do we fix it?"

Now I have to defend the system and we don't attack the issue.


Why defend the system that is producing such results? Why not acknowledge amd work to fix it?

A lot of the people so defensive here (not you) are ones who say DC (a system) is broken.

I get being upset Biden is throwing It in the face. How should he approach it ?


How about saying, "we've made great strides as a country in the last 70 years, but we still have work to do."


Ok. But again, half the country adored and elected a man because he said the system was completely rotten and broken. Parts of it surely were. Parts of it were/are not.

ETA: as a non-confrontational person, I appreciate your wording…but let's face it, that no longer works in American politics. You have to hit someone over the head and force the topic. I don't have to like that, but it's the way politics are done now
Steve Videtich
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Packchem91 said:

Steve Videtich said:

Packchem91 said:

hokiewolf said:

Packchem91 said:

hokiewolf said:

Civilized said:

PackFansXL said:

Packchem91 said:

PackFansXL said:

https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565

Quote:

"Systemic racism includes the complex array of antiblack practices, the unjustly gained political-economic power of whites, the continuing economic and other resource inequalities along racial lines, and the white racist ideologies and attitudes created to maintain and rationalize white privilege and power. Systemic here means that the core racist realities are manifested in each of society's major parts [...] each major part of U.S. society the economy, politics, education, religion, the family reflects the fundamental reality of systemic racism."
The quote above is from the inventor of the systemic racism term, Joe Feagin. The link is to a site that attempts to define terms that are supposed to be current problems but examples all sound like behavior that was outlawed decades ago.
I mean, if the term systemic bothers you, what term do you want to give it?

Do you disagree with the conditions Civil outlined? If we assume they are all true, is that an issue to you? And if it's not "systemic ", what is it?

To be clear, because you started this topic with your statement that Biden called you and other white males racist. The conditions Civil lay out don't make you racist. Bit ignoring them, or as Cary says "just have to live with it"…that at least suggests we're ok with them because it's not us being impacted
To me racism refers to actively trying to suppress the rights of someone based solely on their skin color. To a sociologist, racism has a much broader definition which is why I posted it. By the sociologist's definition of the term, any experiential based observations categorized using skin color as one element of a working conclusion is racist. With that definition, everyone is racist just as the Bible teaches that everyone is a sinner. It is unavoidable. Attempting to gain political power while declaring your opponents are racist using the sociologist's terminology is hypocritical and dishonest because by that definition everyone is racist including the politician claiming to be morally superior.

Obviously you're triggered by the word, so use whatever word you want to describe different (worse) outcomes for Black Americans vs. White Americans in criminal justice.

Is there a reason to not try and square the playing field so that black and white Americans are pulled over at the same rate, charged at the same rate (when the crimes they are accused of are similar), convicted at the same rate (when the crimes they're accused of are similar), sentenced at a similar severity (when the crimes they're convicted of are similar), paroled as frequently (when the crimes they're convicted of are similar), etc.

Because those are real problems, and they're the problems people are talking about when they talk about implicit bias and systemic racism. So if the words bias, racism, privilege, etc. bother you pick other words but let's stop being distracted by the words and focus instead on the actual and obvious challenges.
I don't think you're going to accomplish what you want to accomplish by condemning the entire system as systemically racist, because it's not.


And I'm happy to come up with another word so as to not hurt peoples feelings. Amd I acknowledge some terms are used to incite, inflame, influence, etc

So, make up your own terms…but we should address the issues that still exist
it's not the terms,
It's the overall starting approach that is the issue.

If you want to solve a problem legitimately, don't put your "adversary" on the defensive to begin with. You're basically saying "we all know the current system was designed to produce a bias and is immoral, so how do we fix it?"

Now I have to defend the system and we don't attack the issue.


Why defend the system that is producing such results? Why not acknowledge amd work to fix it?

A lot of the people so defensive here (not you) are ones who say DC (a system) is broken.

I get being upset Biden is throwing It in the face. How should he approach it ?


How about saying, "we've made great strides as a country in the last 70 years, but we still have work to do."


Ok. But again, half the country adored and elected a man because he said the system was completely rotten and broken. Parts of it surely were. Parts of it were/are not.



Are we talking about race in this country or are we talking about DC and the political system? The question was asked regarding how Biden addresses race in this country. I answered that. Have we it have we not gotten better with regard to race relations in the past 70 years?
 
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