Civilized said:

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Werewolf said:

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^ When I attend and pay for a movie at the theatre I expect all patrons to pay for a ticket There's a gate and the price of the ticket pre-determined and we all pay to see the show. Why allow massive #'s in the side doors and back door to attend? The movie theatre is getting some sort of a kickback or benefit not visible to all. What happens when the doors are flung open for days on end? Those paying for the ticket soon have to pay more.......as 2nd and 3rd theatres must show the same show. Who pays for the 2nd and 3rd theatre? Those paying the ticket do. What happens when hoodlums also make it through those side and back doors?

Same could be said for attendance at Carter Finley....and throw in the Mexican drug cartel as scalpers with counterfeit tickets resulting in illegals standing in aisles and blocking your view.

Like Trump said ........a beautiful wall and with a beautiful huge door in the middle.............just come in the legal way. When non-payers come in illegally what's the incentive for a customer to come through the gate/big door?

---

Your analogy is terrible but if we go with it, unless you legally immigrated to the US you didn't "pay for the movie."

You were lucky enough to be born in the movie theater and get to watch all the movies you want for free but enjoy talking down your nose about what other patrons need to do to gain access to the theater, like you earned your theater privilege.

Legal immigration should not be a years-long, expensive as hell test that immigrants have to pass to gain access to an exclusive club. There are too many immigrants that are ready, willing, and able to come here and work their asses off for that to be the appropriate approach.

---

My being lucky enough to be born in the US allows me to file taxes in the US every year I want to remain a law abiding US citizen. If my income taxes working outside the US is lower than what I would pay if in the US, I pay the difference to uncle Sam. I am not watching free movies. And having gone through a number of foreign work permits/visas most countries want skilled / educated people. Glad I have my undergraduate and graduate degree from my beloved NC State!

Cthepack said:

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Civilized said:

---

Werewolf said:

---

^ When I attend and pay for a movie at the theatre I expect all patrons to pay for a ticket There's a gate and the price of the ticket pre-determined and we all pay to see the show. Why allow massive #'s in the side doors and back door to attend? The movie theatre is getting some sort of a kickback or benefit not visible to all. What happens when the doors are flung open for days on end? Those paying for the ticket soon have to pay more.......as 2nd and 3rd theatres must show the same show. Who pays for the 2nd and 3rd theatre? Those paying the ticket do. What happens when hoodlums also make it through those side and back doors?

Same could be said for attendance at Carter Finley....and throw in the Mexican drug cartel as scalpers with counterfeit tickets resulting in illegals standing in aisles and blocking your view.

Like Trump said ........a beautiful wall and with a beautiful huge door in the middle.............just come in the legal way. When non-payers come in illegally what's the incentive for a customer to come through the gate/big door?

---

Your analogy is terrible but if we go with it, unless you legally immigrated to the US you didn't "pay for the movie."

You were lucky enough to be born in the movie theater and get to watch all the movies you want for free but enjoy talking down your nose about what other patrons need to do to gain access to the theater, like you earned your theater privilege.

Legal immigration should not be a years-long, expensive as hell test that immigrants have to pass to gain access to an exclusive club. There are too many immigrants that are ready, willing, and able to come here and work their asses off for that to be the appropriate approach.

---

My being lucky enough to be born in the US allows me to file taxes in the US every year I want to remain a law abiding US citizen. If my income taxes working outside the US is lower than what I would pay if in the US, I pay the difference to uncle Sam. I am not watching free movies. And having gone through a number of foreign work permits/visas most countries want skilled / educated people. Glad I have my undergraduate and graduate degree from my beloved NC State!

---

How much did you pay to become a US citizen?

How long did it take you to do so?

Civilized said:

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Cthepack said:

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Civilized said:

---

Werewolf said:

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^ When I attend and pay for a movie at the theatre I expect all patrons to pay for a ticket There's a gate and the price of the ticket pre-determined and we all pay to see the show. Why allow massive #'s in the side doors and back door to attend? The movie theatre is getting some sort of a kickback or benefit not visible to all. What happens when the doors are flung open for days on end? Those paying for the ticket soon have to pay more.......as 2nd and 3rd theatres must show the same show. Who pays for the 2nd and 3rd theatre? Those paying the ticket do. What happens when hoodlums also make it through those side and back doors?

Same could be said for attendance at Carter Finley....and throw in the Mexican drug cartel as scalpers with counterfeit tickets resulting in illegals standing in aisles and blocking your view.

Like Trump said ........a beautiful wall and with a beautiful huge door in the middle.............just come in the legal way. When non-payers come in illegally what's the incentive for a customer to come through the gate/big door?

---

Your analogy is terrible but if we go with it, unless you legally immigrated to the US you didn't "pay for the movie."

You were lucky enough to be born in the movie theater and get to watch all the movies you want for free but enjoy talking down your nose about what other patrons need to do to gain access to the theater, like you earned your theater privilege.

Legal immigration should not be a years-long, expensive as hell test that immigrants have to pass to gain access to an exclusive club. There are too many immigrants that are ready, willing, and able to come here and work their asses off for that to be the appropriate approach.

---

My being lucky enough to be born in the US allows me to file taxes in the US every year I want to remain a law abiding US citizen. If my income taxes working outside the US is lower than what I would pay if in the US, I pay the difference to uncle Sam. I am not watching free movies. And having gone through a number of foreign work permits/visas most countries want skilled / educated people. Glad I have my undergraduate and graduate degree from my beloved NC State!

---

How much did you pay to become a US citizen?

How long did it take you to do so?

---

Do you take the same mindset with your children allowing strangers to enter your home? It's quite a simplistic mindset.

Steve Videtich said:

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I fail to understand the "nativism" screaming given the current state of our country. We have so many issues in this country right now, and putting the US first has been given a negative connotation. Why?

Almost every other country in the world looks out for their own interest first. But, when there is the first sign of trouble, the US is expected to come to the rescue, whether it be financial or via military.

In the process, we are stacking up debt at alarming levels. We have an ever growing homeless problem, particularly among veterans. With that, a huge mental health issue in this country. And, we have a wide open border to any and all that want to come right now.

I'm all for helping the world. But, we need to clean up our own house first before we invite company. At least get the living room and den cleaned up! Then we can talk about sending billions around the world and opening up the borders to reasonable immigration.

If that's nativism, whatever!

---

I was surprised it took this long for our "independents" to start with the -isms and -ists.

packgrad said:

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Civilized said:

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Cthepack said:

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Civilized said:

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Werewolf said:

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^ When I attend and pay for a movie at the theatre I expect all patrons to pay for a ticket There's a gate and the price of the ticket pre-determined and we all pay to see the show. Why allow massive #'s in the side doors and back door to attend? The movie theatre is getting some sort of a kickback or benefit not visible to all. What happens when the doors are flung open for days on end? Those paying for the ticket soon have to pay more.......as 2nd and 3rd theatres must show the same show. Who pays for the 2nd and 3rd theatre? Those paying the ticket do. What happens when hoodlums also make it through those side and back doors?

Same could be said for attendance at Carter Finley....and throw in the Mexican drug cartel as scalpers with counterfeit tickets resulting in illegals standing in aisles and blocking your view.

Like Trump said ........a beautiful wall and with a beautiful huge door in the middle.............just come in the legal way. When non-payers come in illegally what's the incentive for a customer to come through the gate/big door?

---

Your analogy is terrible but if we go with it, unless you legally immigrated to the US you didn't "pay for the movie."

You were lucky enough to be born in the movie theater and get to watch all the movies you want for free but enjoy talking down your nose about what other patrons need to do to gain access to the theater, like you earned your theater privilege.

Legal immigration should not be a years-long, expensive as hell test that immigrants have to pass to gain access to an exclusive club. There are too many immigrants that are ready, willing, and able to come here and work their asses off for that to be the appropriate approach.

---

My being lucky enough to be born in the US allows me to file taxes in the US every year I want to remain a law abiding US citizen. If my income taxes working outside the US is lower than what I would pay if in the US, I pay the difference to uncle Sam. I am not watching free movies. And having gone through a number of foreign work permits/visas most countries want skilled / educated people. Glad I have my undergraduate and graduate degree from my beloved NC State!

---

How much did you pay to become a US citizen?

How long did it take you to do so?

---

Do you take the same mindset with your children allowing strangers to enter your home? It's quite a simplistic mindset.

---

Take the same mindset, as what?

Civilized said:

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packgrad said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Werewolf said:

---

^ When I attend and pay for a movie at the theatre I expect all patrons to pay for a ticket There's a gate and the price of the ticket pre-determined and we all pay to see the show. Why allow massive #'s in the side doors and back door to attend? The movie theatre is getting some sort of a kickback or benefit not visible to all. What happens when the doors are flung open for days on end? Those paying for the ticket soon have to pay more.......as 2nd and 3rd theatres must show the same show. Who pays for the 2nd and 3rd theatre? Those paying the ticket do. What happens when hoodlums also make it through those side and back doors?

Same could be said for attendance at Carter Finley....and throw in the Mexican drug cartel as scalpers with counterfeit tickets resulting in illegals standing in aisles and blocking your view.

Like Trump said ........a beautiful wall and with a beautiful huge door in the middle.............just come in the legal way. When non-payers come in illegally what's the incentive for a customer to come through the gate/big door?

---

Your analogy is terrible but if we go with it, unless you legally immigrated to the US you didn't "pay for the movie."

You were lucky enough to be born in the movie theater and get to watch all the movies you want for free but enjoy talking down your nose about what other patrons need to do to gain access to the theater, like you earned your theater privilege.

Legal immigration should not be a years-long, expensive as hell test that immigrants have to pass to gain access to an exclusive club. There are too many immigrants that are ready, willing, and able to come here and work their asses off for that to be the appropriate approach.

---

My being lucky enough to be born in the US allows me to file taxes in the US every year I want to remain a law abiding US citizen. If my income taxes working outside the US is lower than what I would pay if in the US, I pay the difference to uncle Sam. I am not watching free movies. And having gone through a number of foreign work permits/visas most countries want skilled / educated people. Glad I have my undergraduate and graduate degree from my beloved NC State!

---

How much did you pay to become a US citizen?

How long did it take you to do so?

---

Do you take the same mindset with your children allowing strangers to enter your home? It's quite a simplistic mindset.

---

Take the same mindset, as what?

---

The same mindset you're portraying here. "You were born here!!! How much did you pay?" Are strangers just allowed to enter your home when you're away since your children didn't pay to live there and it would be looking down their noses to question easy entry?

What in the heck kinda comparison is that? They are talking about immigration and you go to strangers being allowed in your house?

wolfman18 said:

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What in the heck kinda comparison is that? They are talking about immigration and you go to strangers being allowed in your house?

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It's a tough concept for some. I know. They're not talking about immigration when someone says "how much did you pay to live here?"

Civilized said:

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Cthepack said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Werewolf said:

---

^ When I attend and pay for a movie at the theatre I expect all patrons to pay for a ticket There's a gate and the price of the ticket pre-determined and we all pay to see the show. Why allow massive #'s in the side doors and back door to attend? The movie theatre is getting some sort of a kickback or benefit not visible to all. What happens when the doors are flung open for days on end? Those paying for the ticket soon have to pay more.......as 2nd and 3rd theatres must show the same show. Who pays for the 2nd and 3rd theatre? Those paying the ticket do. What happens when hoodlums also make it through those side and back doors?

Same could be said for attendance at Carter Finley....and throw in the Mexican drug cartel as scalpers with counterfeit tickets resulting in illegals standing in aisles and blocking your view.

Like Trump said ........a beautiful wall and with a beautiful huge door in the middle.............just come in the legal way. When non-payers come in illegally what's the incentive for a customer to come through the gate/big door?

---

Your analogy is terrible but if we go with it, unless you legally immigrated to the US you didn't "pay for the movie."

You were lucky enough to be born in the movie theater and get to watch all the movies you want for free but enjoy talking down your nose about what other patrons need to do to gain access to the theater, like you earned your theater privilege.

Legal immigration should not be a years-long, expensive as hell test that immigrants have to pass to gain access to an exclusive club. There are too many immigrants that are ready, willing, and able to come here and work their asses off for that to be the appropriate approach.

---

My being lucky enough to be born in the US allows me to file taxes in the US every year I want to remain a law abiding US citizen. If my income taxes working outside the US is lower than what I would pay if in the US, I pay the difference to uncle Sam. I am not watching free movies. And having gone through a number of foreign work permits/visas most countries want skilled / educated people. Glad I have my undergraduate and graduate degree from my beloved NC State!

---

How much did you pay to become a US citizen?

How long did it take you to do so?

---

Civ, I haven't seen where you've put your thoughts down on what the process would be. How easy do you want it to be for people to come into the country? What does your immigration look like? All I've seen is you criticizing everyone else's ideas.

Some seem to believe that I believe that current policy at the border is fine. To clarify again I don't believe that nor do I believe that a wall and stepped up enforcement is the cure all for illegal immigration.

I don't believe that because I feel that it is a natural human nature to improve one's lot in life and being the the opportunity is greater in the US than any other nation in the world we should have an immigration policy that meets the demand of those who want to migrate to the US. Until that happens, you will NEVER get rid of illegal immigration.

It doesn't matter how high of wall you build humans are going to human

hokiewolf said:

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Some seem to believe that I believe that current policy at the border is fine. To clarify again I don't believe that nor do I believe that a wall and stepped up enforcement is the cure all for illegal immigration.

I don't believe that because I feel that it is a natural human nature to improve one's lot in life and being the the opportunity is greater in the US than any other nation in the world we should have an immigration policy that meets the demand of those who want to migrate to the US. Until that happens, you will NEVER get rid of illegal immigration.

It doesn't matter how high of wall you build humans are going to human

---

The wall and enforcement are meant to force people through the proper channels of legal immigration. I think we both agree that the proper channels is where the process needs adjusting. If someone is not willing to go through the proper channels, then maybe we don't want them here. We need to know who is coming into this country. Remember 9-11?

But again, we need to streamline the process.

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Some seem to believe that I believe that current policy at the border is fine. To clarify again I don't believe that nor do I believe that a wall and stepped up enforcement is the cure all for illegal immigration.

I don't believe that because I feel that it is a natural human nature to improve one's lot in life and being the the opportunity is greater in the US than any other nation in the world we should have an immigration policy that meets the demand of those who want to migrate to the US. Until that happens, you will NEVER get rid of illegal immigration.

It doesn't matter how high of wall you build humans are going to human

---

The wall and enforcement are meant to force people through the proper channels of legal immigration. I think we both agree that the proper channels is where the process needs adjusting. If someone is not willing to go through the proper channels, then maybe we don't want them here. We need to know who is coming into this country. Remember 9-11?

But again, we need to streamline the process.

---

I think if someone is willing to pay thousands to the cartels, then risk their life for each part of the journey, cross into the US in the desert and do all this without any guarantee for success and that's the EASIEST way to immigrate into the US, I question the process, not the person.

hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Some seem to believe that I believe that current policy at the border is fine. To clarify again I don't believe that nor do I believe that a wall and stepped up enforcement is the cure all for illegal immigration.

I don't believe that because I feel that it is a natural human nature to improve one's lot in life and being the the opportunity is greater in the US than any other nation in the world we should have an immigration policy that meets the demand of those who want to migrate to the US. Until that happens, you will NEVER get rid of illegal immigration.

It doesn't matter how high of wall you build humans are going to human

---

The wall and enforcement are meant to force people through the proper channels of legal immigration. I think we both agree that the proper channels is where the process needs adjusting. If someone is not willing to go through the proper channels, then maybe we don't want them here. We need to know who is coming into this country. Remember 9-11?

But again, we need to streamline the process.

---

I think if someone is willing to pay thousands to the cartels, then risk their life for each part of the journey, cross into the US in the desert and do all this without any guarantee for success and that's the EASIEST way to immigrate into the US, I question the process, not the person.

---

Really? They wouldn't do the same thing if they had a reason to evade the process...evade the authorities?

ETA: If they can afford to pay thousands to the cartel, why not go through the process and use that money to start your life in the US?

Civilized said:

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Cthepack said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Werewolf said:

---

^ When I attend and pay for a movie at the theatre I expect all patrons to pay for a ticket There's a gate and the price of the ticket pre-determined and we all pay to see the show. Why allow massive #'s in the side doors and back door to attend? The movie theatre is getting some sort of a kickback or benefit not visible to all. What happens when the doors are flung open for days on end? Those paying for the ticket soon have to pay more.......as 2nd and 3rd theatres must show the same show. Who pays for the 2nd and 3rd theatre? Those paying the ticket do. What happens when hoodlums also make it through those side and back doors?

Same could be said for attendance at Carter Finley....and throw in the Mexican drug cartel as scalpers with counterfeit tickets resulting in illegals standing in aisles and blocking your view.

Like Trump said ........a beautiful wall and with a beautiful huge door in the middle.............just come in the legal way. When non-payers come in illegally what's the incentive for a customer to come through the gate/big door?

---

Your analogy is terrible but if we go with it, unless you legally immigrated to the US you didn't "pay for the movie."

You were lucky enough to be born in the movie theater and get to watch all the movies you want for free but enjoy talking down your nose about what other patrons need to do to gain access to the theater, like you earned your theater privilege.

Legal immigration should not be a years-long, expensive as hell test that immigrants have to pass to gain access to an exclusive club. There are too many immigrants that are ready, willing, and able to come here and work their asses off for that to be the appropriate approach.

---

My being lucky enough to be born in the US allows me to file taxes in the US every year I want to remain a law abiding US citizen. If my income taxes working outside the US is lower than what I would pay if in the US, I pay the difference to uncle Sam. I am not watching free movies. And having gone through a number of foreign work permits/visas most countries want skilled / educated people. Glad I have my undergraduate and graduate degree from my beloved NC State!

---

How much did you pay to become a US citizen?

How long did it take you to do so?

---

As my post states I was born in the US. But me being born in the US does not mean I do not have to pay. To maintain citizenship to the US I must file taxes each year for the rest of my life.

I do have duel citizenship by naturalizing to another country. It took me 6 years to get citizenship plus around $15k (do not remember exact exchange rate). The naturalization happened 12 years ago. I did it legally!

Steve Videtich said:

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hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Some seem to believe that I believe that current policy at the border is fine. To clarify again I don't believe that nor do I believe that a wall and stepped up enforcement is the cure all for illegal immigration.

I don't believe that because I feel that it is a natural human nature to improve one's lot in life and being the the opportunity is greater in the US than any other nation in the world we should have an immigration policy that meets the demand of those who want to migrate to the US. Until that happens, you will NEVER get rid of illegal immigration.

It doesn't matter how high of wall you build humans are going to human

---

The wall and enforcement are meant to force people through the proper channels of legal immigration. I think we both agree that the proper channels is where the process needs adjusting. If someone is not willing to go through the proper channels, then maybe we don't want them here. We need to know who is coming into this country. Remember 9-11?

But again, we need to streamline the process.

---

I think if someone is willing to pay thousands to the cartels, then risk their life for each part of the journey, cross into the US in the desert and do all this without any guarantee for success and that's the EASIEST way to immigrate into the US, I question the process, not the person.

---

Really? They wouldn't do the same thing if they had a reason to evade the process...evade the authorities?

ETA: If they can afford to pay thousands to the cartel, why not go through the process and use that money to start your life in the US?

---

because Steve it is easier to get into the US illegally than legally. This is my point. This seems to be the point that you all are missing. The way to end illegal immigration is to provide more access to legal immigration. These people don't want to choose the path I described. They WOULD like to do so legally, it's just that that's impossible to do so.

There is never going to be a way for the US to limit the amount of people who want to come in from the Southern border except to increase the supply of means of legal entry.

BYW the going rate to pay cartels to get into the US is around $2500.

If only there was something we could build on the border that would limit the flow of unchecked persons. Some "Wall-type" object....I cant think of anything....

hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Some seem to believe that I believe that current policy at the border is fine. To clarify again I don't believe that nor do I believe that a wall and stepped up enforcement is the cure all for illegal immigration.

I don't believe that because I feel that it is a natural human nature to improve one's lot in life and being the the opportunity is greater in the US than any other nation in the world we should have an immigration policy that meets the demand of those who want to migrate to the US. Until that happens, you will NEVER get rid of illegal immigration.

It doesn't matter how high of wall you build humans are going to human

---

The wall and enforcement are meant to force people through the proper channels of legal immigration. I think we both agree that the proper channels is where the process needs adjusting. If someone is not willing to go through the proper channels, then maybe we don't want them here. We need to know who is coming into this country. Remember 9-11?

But again, we need to streamline the process.

---

I think if someone is willing to pay thousands to the cartels, then risk their life for each part of the journey, cross into the US in the desert and do all this without any guarantee for success and that's the EASIEST way to immigrate into the US, I question the process, not the person.

---

Really? They wouldn't do the same thing if they had a reason to evade the process...evade the authorities?

ETA: If they can afford to pay thousands to the cartel, why not go through the process and use that money to start your life in the US?

---

because Steve it is easier to get into the US illegally than legally. This is my point. This seems to be the point that you all are missing. The way to end illegal immigration is to provide more access to legal immigration. These people don't want to choose the path I described. They WOULD like to do so legally, it's just that that's impossible to do so.

There is never going to be a way for the US to limit the amount of people who want to come in from the Southern border except to increase the supply of means of legal entry.

BYW the going rate to pay cartels to get into the US is around $2500.

---

That's the exact reason we need to close the border! Build the Wall!! Hokie, I do not believe we can get a consensus for changing the immigration laws until the boarder is Closed.

I agree that the process has to be too difficult. Not because I've studied the process; rather, just dealing with the government in general. I would support legal immigration reform; however, for me, it has to be the second issue, right behind the wall.

The unwillingness of people to build the wall just blows my mind. I would think that our sovereignty as a country would be paramount to all. That also aligns with ones self determination. I'll never understand the thinking…

hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Some seem to believe that I believe that current policy at the border is fine. To clarify again I don't believe that nor do I believe that a wall and stepped up enforcement is the cure all for illegal immigration.

I don't believe that because I feel that it is a natural human nature to improve one's lot in life and being the the opportunity is greater in the US than any other nation in the world we should have an immigration policy that meets the demand of those who want to migrate to the US. Until that happens, you will NEVER get rid of illegal immigration.

It doesn't matter how high of wall you build humans are going to human

---

The wall and enforcement are meant to force people through the proper channels of legal immigration. I think we both agree that the proper channels is where the process needs adjusting. If someone is not willing to go through the proper channels, then maybe we don't want them here. We need to know who is coming into this country. Remember 9-11?

But again, we need to streamline the process.

---

I think if someone is willing to pay thousands to the cartels, then risk their life for each part of the journey, cross into the US in the desert and do all this without any guarantee for success and that's the EASIEST way to immigrate into the US, I question the process, not the person.

---

Really? They wouldn't do the same thing if they had a reason to evade the process...evade the authorities?

ETA: If they can afford to pay thousands to the cartel, why not go through the process and use that money to start your life in the US?

---

because Steve it is easier to get into the US illegally than legally. This is my point. This seems to be the point that you all are missing. The way to end illegal immigration is to provide more access to legal immigration. These people don't want to choose the path I described. They WOULD like to do so legally, it's just that that's impossible to do so.

There is never going to be a way for the US to limit the amount of people who want to come in from the Southern border except to increase the supply of means of legal entry.

BYW the going rate to pay cartels to get into the US is around $2500.

---

the problem is Hokie that it's through these illegal means that we are getting record amounts of drugs and human trafficking and people with evil intentions for our country flooding into our country.

Not one person has said they are trying to stop the immigrant with true intentions. Not one. But we have to try and curtail the negative intentions. No, it'll never be stopped 100%, but you're acting like we shouldn't even try.

And we all agree that the process needs to be tweaked!

Cthepack said:

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Civilized said:

---

Cthepack said:

---

Civilized said:

---

Werewolf said:

---

^ When I attend and pay for a movie at the theatre I expect all patrons to pay for a ticket There's a gate and the price of the ticket pre-determined and we all pay to see the show. Why allow massive #'s in the side doors and back door to attend? The movie theatre is getting some sort of a kickback or benefit not visible to all. What happens when the doors are flung open for days on end? Those paying for the ticket soon have to pay more.......as 2nd and 3rd theatres must show the same show. Who pays for the 2nd and 3rd theatre? Those paying the ticket do. What happens when hoodlums also make it through those side and back doors?

Same could be said for attendance at Carter Finley....and throw in the Mexican drug cartel as scalpers with counterfeit tickets resulting in illegals standing in aisles and blocking your view.

Like Trump said ........a beautiful wall and with a beautiful huge door in the middle.............just come in the legal way. When non-payers come in illegally what's the incentive for a customer to come through the gate/big door?

---

Your analogy is terrible but if we go with it, unless you legally immigrated to the US you didn't "pay for the movie."

You were lucky enough to be born in the movie theater and get to watch all the movies you want for free but enjoy talking down your nose about what other patrons need to do to gain access to the theater, like you earned your theater privilege.

Legal immigration should not be a years-long, expensive as hell test that immigrants have to pass to gain access to an exclusive club. There are too many immigrants that are ready, willing, and able to come here and work their asses off for that to be the appropriate approach.

---

My being lucky enough to be born in the US allows me to file taxes in the US every year I want to remain a law abiding US citizen. If my income taxes working outside the US is lower than what I would pay if in the US, I pay the difference to uncle Sam. I am not watching free movies. And having gone through a number of foreign work permits/visas most countries want skilled / educated people. Glad I have my undergraduate and graduate degree from my beloved NC State!

---

How much did you pay to become a US citizen?

How long did it take you to do so?

---

As my post states I was born in the US. But me being born in the US does not mean I do not have to pay. To maintain citizenship to the US I must file taxes each year for the rest of my life.

I do have duel citizenship by naturalizing to another country. It took me 6 years to get citizenship plus around $15k (do not remember exact exchange rate). The naturalization happened 12 years ago. I did it legally!

---

He's just here to argue...

hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Some seem to believe that I believe that current policy at the border is fine. To clarify again I don't believe that nor do I believe that a wall and stepped up enforcement is the cure all for illegal immigration.

I don't believe that because I feel that it is a natural human nature to improve one's lot in life and being the the opportunity is greater in the US than any other nation in the world we should have an immigration policy that meets the demand of those who want to migrate to the US. Until that happens, you will NEVER get rid of illegal immigration.

It doesn't matter how high of wall you build humans are going to human

---

The wall and enforcement are meant to force people through the proper channels of legal immigration. I think we both agree that the proper channels is where the process needs adjusting. If someone is not willing to go through the proper channels, then maybe we don't want them here. We need to know who is coming into this country. Remember 9-11?

But again, we need to streamline the process.

---

I think if someone is willing to pay thousands to the cartels, then risk their life for each part of the journey, cross into the US in the desert and do all this without any guarantee for success and that's the EASIEST way to immigrate into the US, I question the process, not the person.

---

Really? They wouldn't do the same thing if they had a reason to evade the process...evade the authorities?

ETA: If they can afford to pay thousands to the cartel, why not go through the process and use that money to start your life in the US?

---

because Steve it is easier to get into the US illegally than legally. This is my point. This seems to be the point that you all are missing. The way to end illegal immigration is to provide more access to legal immigration. These people don't want to choose the path I described. They WOULD like to do so legally, it's just that that's impossible to do so.

There is never going to be a way for the US to limit the amount of people who want to come in from the Southern border except to increase the supply of means of legal entry.

BYW the going rate to pay cartels to get into the US is around $2500.

---

The only other way would be to make it better to stay in Central America. But most of those countries are led by despots who make Trump/Biden/any American leader look like saints.
In my experience, most people there live like rural poor people did in America 100 years ago.

So yeah....turning to America is by far the better option. In the community I've worked, we helped build a computer lab where people could learn English, as that clearly benefits them tremendously even in country. A few of those adult men who've learned were given a chance with a farm in the midwest to live there seasonally (and within the legal restrictions) to work on a potato farm.

But those kinds of opportunities are few and far between. And most young boys -- early teens -- are highly influenced to drop out of school b/c they need to work to make $$ for the family...so the circle continues -- until one of them can get to US and make real $$. They KNOW the risks -- specifically the risk of death / rape / violence on the trip, but the tradeoff is just too much, and the alternatives (the "legal" process") is just not readily available to most folks. Just as I'm sure it would not have been if a legal process had been in place when millions of Irish or Italians were coming over in the 1800s. There, but for the grace of God....

Packchem91 said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Some seem to believe that I believe that current policy at the border is fine. To clarify again I don't believe that nor do I believe that a wall and stepped up enforcement is the cure all for illegal immigration.

I don't believe that because I feel that it is a natural human nature to improve one's lot in life and being the the opportunity is greater in the US than any other nation in the world we should have an immigration policy that meets the demand of those who want to migrate to the US. Until that happens, you will NEVER get rid of illegal immigration.

It doesn't matter how high of wall you build humans are going to human

---

The wall and enforcement are meant to force people through the proper channels of legal immigration. I think we both agree that the proper channels is where the process needs adjusting. If someone is not willing to go through the proper channels, then maybe we don't want them here. We need to know who is coming into this country. Remember 9-11?

But again, we need to streamline the process.

---

I think if someone is willing to pay thousands to the cartels, then risk their life for each part of the journey, cross into the US in the desert and do all this without any guarantee for success and that's the EASIEST way to immigrate into the US, I question the process, not the person.

---

Really? They wouldn't do the same thing if they had a reason to evade the process...evade the authorities?

ETA: If they can afford to pay thousands to the cartel, why not go through the process and use that money to start your life in the US?

---

because Steve it is easier to get into the US illegally than legally. This is my point. This seems to be the point that you all are missing. The way to end illegal immigration is to provide more access to legal immigration. These people don't want to choose the path I described. They WOULD like to do so legally, it's just that that's impossible to do so.

There is never going to be a way for the US to limit the amount of people who want to come in from the Southern border except to increase the supply of means of legal entry.

BYW the going rate to pay cartels to get into the US is around $2500.

---

The only other way would be to make it better to stay in Central America. But most of those countries are led by despots who make Trump/Biden/any American leader look like saints.
In my experience, most people there live like rural poor people did in America 100 years ago.

So yeah....turning to America is by far the better option. In the community I've worked, we helped build a computer lab where people could learn English, as that clearly benefits them tremendously even in country. A few of those adult men who've learned were given a chance with a farm in the midwest to live there seasonally (and within the legal restrictions) to work on a potato farm.

But those kinds of opportunities are few and far between. And most young boys -- early teens -- are highly influenced to drop out of school b/c they need to work to make $$ for the family...so the circle continues -- until one of them can get to US and make real $$. They KNOW the risks -- specifically the risk of death / rape / violence on the trip, but the tradeoff is just too much, and the alternatives (the "legal" process") is just not readily available to most folks. Just as I'm sure it would not have been if a legal process had been in place when millions of Irish or Italians were coming over in the 1800s. There, but for the grace of God....

---

So Chem, that begs the question with the other part of my argument. Where does all the money go that we send to these countries for development purposes? Do we have any follow up on this money and how it's being used? If these countries were to improve, the lure of the US wouldn't be as desirable.

But, I just don't see how it makes sense for us to send millions to these countries for so many to only want to leave. If we want to take these people in, then we have to cut off the funding to these countries and use it here.

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Some seem to believe that I believe that current policy at the border is fine. To clarify again I don't believe that nor do I believe that a wall and stepped up enforcement is the cure all for illegal immigration.

I don't believe that because I feel that it is a natural human nature to improve one's lot in life and being the the opportunity is greater in the US than any other nation in the world we should have an immigration policy that meets the demand of those who want to migrate to the US. Until that happens, you will NEVER get rid of illegal immigration.

It doesn't matter how high of wall you build humans are going to human

---

The wall and enforcement are meant to force people through the proper channels of legal immigration. I think we both agree that the proper channels is where the process needs adjusting. If someone is not willing to go through the proper channels, then maybe we don't want them here. We need to know who is coming into this country. Remember 9-11?

But again, we need to streamline the process.

---

I think if someone is willing to pay thousands to the cartels, then risk their life for each part of the journey, cross into the US in the desert and do all this without any guarantee for success and that's the EASIEST way to immigrate into the US, I question the process, not the person.

---

Really? They wouldn't do the same thing if they had a reason to evade the process...evade the authorities?

ETA: If they can afford to pay thousands to the cartel, why not go through the process and use that money to start your life in the US?

---

because Steve it is easier to get into the US illegally than legally. This is my point. This seems to be the point that you all are missing. The way to end illegal immigration is to provide more access to legal immigration. These people don't want to choose the path I described. They WOULD like to do so legally, it's just that that's impossible to do so.

There is never going to be a way for the US to limit the amount of people who want to come in from the Southern border except to increase the supply of means of legal entry.

BYW the going rate to pay cartels to get into the US is around $2500.

---

The only other way would be to make it better to stay in Central America. But most of those countries are led by despots who make Trump/Biden/any American leader look like saints.
In my experience, most people there live like rural poor people did in America 100 years ago.

So yeah....turning to America is by far the better option. In the community I've worked, we helped build a computer lab where people could learn English, as that clearly benefits them tremendously even in country. A few of those adult men who've learned were given a chance with a farm in the midwest to live there seasonally (and within the legal restrictions) to work on a potato farm.

But those kinds of opportunities are few and far between. And most young boys -- early teens -- are highly influenced to drop out of school b/c they need to work to make $$ for the family...so the circle continues -- until one of them can get to US and make real $$. They KNOW the risks -- specifically the risk of death / rape / violence on the trip, but the tradeoff is just too much, and the alternatives (the "legal" process") is just not readily available to most folks. Just as I'm sure it would not have been if a legal process had been in place when millions of Irish or Italians were coming over in the 1800s. There, but for the grace of God....

---

So Chem, that begs the question with the other part of my argument. Where does all the money go that we send to these countries for development purposes? Do we have any follow up on this money and how it's being used? If these countries were to improve, the lure of the US wouldn't be as desirable.

But, I just don't see how it makes sense for us to send millions to these countries for so many to only want to leave. If we want to take these people in, then we have to cut off the funding to these countries and use it here.

---

If chem is so passionate about these areas of concern, I would suggest he roll up his sleeves and move there. Raise private capital and build better education systems where the problems are.

The US is not the holding ground for all in need!!

BTW, should these illegals get US citizenship?

Also, what does everyone think about Russia invading Ukraine? Is Russia invading their National borders? Is this an attack on their Nationalism?

I believe the illegals coming in (roughly 1.5-2.0 million in 2021) is an attack on our Nationalism!!! An argument can be made that this is a war on America.


D-day (WW2) had about 156K allied forces hit the ground on the first days. February 2022 had 158K illegals hit our boarder.

caryking said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Some seem to believe that I believe that current policy at the border is fine. To clarify again I don't believe that nor do I believe that a wall and stepped up enforcement is the cure all for illegal immigration.

I don't believe that because I feel that it is a natural human nature to improve one's lot in life and being the the opportunity is greater in the US than any other nation in the world we should have an immigration policy that meets the demand of those who want to migrate to the US. Until that happens, you will NEVER get rid of illegal immigration.

It doesn't matter how high of wall you build humans are going to human

---

The wall and enforcement are meant to force people through the proper channels of legal immigration. I think we both agree that the proper channels is where the process needs adjusting. If someone is not willing to go through the proper channels, then maybe we don't want them here. We need to know who is coming into this country. Remember 9-11?

But again, we need to streamline the process.

---

I think if someone is willing to pay thousands to the cartels, then risk their life for each part of the journey, cross into the US in the desert and do all this without any guarantee for success and that's the EASIEST way to immigrate into the US, I question the process, not the person.

---

Really? They wouldn't do the same thing if they had a reason to evade the process...evade the authorities?

ETA: If they can afford to pay thousands to the cartel, why not go through the process and use that money to start your life in the US?

---

because Steve it is easier to get into the US illegally than legally. This is my point. This seems to be the point that you all are missing. The way to end illegal immigration is to provide more access to legal immigration. These people don't want to choose the path I described. They WOULD like to do so legally, it's just that that's impossible to do so.

There is never going to be a way for the US to limit the amount of people who want to come in from the Southern border except to increase the supply of means of legal entry.

BYW the going rate to pay cartels to get into the US is around $2500.

---

The only other way would be to make it better to stay in Central America. But most of those countries are led by despots who make Trump/Biden/any American leader look like saints.
In my experience, most people there live like rural poor people did in America 100 years ago.

So yeah....turning to America is by far the better option. In the community I've worked, we helped build a computer lab where people could learn English, as that clearly benefits them tremendously even in country. A few of those adult men who've learned were given a chance with a farm in the midwest to live there seasonally (and within the legal restrictions) to work on a potato farm.

But those kinds of opportunities are few and far between. And most young boys -- early teens -- are highly influenced to drop out of school b/c they need to work to make $$ for the family...so the circle continues -- until one of them can get to US and make real $$. They KNOW the risks -- specifically the risk of death / rape / violence on the trip, but the tradeoff is just too much, and the alternatives (the "legal" process") is just not readily available to most folks. Just as I'm sure it would not have been if a legal process had been in place when millions of Irish or Italians were coming over in the 1800s. There, but for the grace of God....

---

So Chem, that begs the question with the other part of my argument. Where does all the money go that we send to these countries for development purposes? Do we have any follow up on this money and how it's being used? If these countries were to improve, the lure of the US wouldn't be as desirable.

But, I just don't see how it makes sense for us to send millions to these countries for so many to only want to leave. If we want to take these people in, then we have to cut off the funding to these countries and use it here.

---

If chem is so passionate about these areas of concern, I would suggest he roll up his sleeves and move there. Raise private capital and build better education systems where the problems are.

The US is not the holding ground for all in need!!

---

https://spendmenot.com/blog/us-foreign-aid-per-country/

Here is a link I found that shows the amount of foreign aid the US sends out annually. It breaks it down by country and what the money is supposed to be doing. It's eye popping!

But look at the break down of Central American countries. Look at how many talk of fighting corruption. Nobody wants to leave citizens in these countries hanging in the wind. But, part off me thinks you end the corruption by cutting off the money train. If you're going to allow those citizens am opportunity in the US, then use the money for that opportunity here.

caryking said:

---

BTW, should these illegals get US citizenship?

Also, what does everyone think about Russia invading Ukraine? Is Russia invading their National borders? Is this an attack on their Nationalism?

I believe the illegals coming in (roughly 1.5-2.0 million in 2021) is an attack on our Nationalism!!! An argument can be made that this is a war on America.


D-day (WW2) had about 156K allied forces hit the ground on the first days. February 2022 had 158K illegals hit our boarder.

---

No, we're not at war with migrants that want to live in our country.

Why would the issue of migration be framed as war? Migrants want a better life, not to attack our country.

My girl Monica has got it right. We have pineal glands....use em'!

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Some seem to believe that I believe that current policy at the border is fine. To clarify again I don't believe that nor do I believe that a wall and stepped up enforcement is the cure all for illegal immigration.

I don't believe that because I feel that it is a natural human nature to improve one's lot in life and being the the opportunity is greater in the US than any other nation in the world we should have an immigration policy that meets the demand of those who want to migrate to the US. Until that happens, you will NEVER get rid of illegal immigration.

It doesn't matter how high of wall you build humans are going to human

---

The wall and enforcement are meant to force people through the proper channels of legal immigration. I think we both agree that the proper channels is where the process needs adjusting. If someone is not willing to go through the proper channels, then maybe we don't want them here. We need to know who is coming into this country. Remember 9-11?

But again, we need to streamline the process.

---

I think if someone is willing to pay thousands to the cartels, then risk their life for each part of the journey, cross into the US in the desert and do all this without any guarantee for success and that's the EASIEST way to immigrate into the US, I question the process, not the person.

---

Really? They wouldn't do the same thing if they had a reason to evade the process...evade the authorities?

ETA: If they can afford to pay thousands to the cartel, why not go through the process and use that money to start your life in the US?

---

because Steve it is easier to get into the US illegally than legally. This is my point. This seems to be the point that you all are missing. The way to end illegal immigration is to provide more access to legal immigration. These people don't want to choose the path I described. They WOULD like to do so legally, it's just that that's impossible to do so.

There is never going to be a way for the US to limit the amount of people who want to come in from the Southern border except to increase the supply of means of legal entry.

BYW the going rate to pay cartels to get into the US is around $2500.

---

The only other way would be to make it better to stay in Central America. But most of those countries are led by despots who make Trump/Biden/any American leader look like saints.
In my experience, most people there live like rural poor people did in America 100 years ago.

So yeah....turning to America is by far the better option. In the community I've worked, we helped build a computer lab where people could learn English, as that clearly benefits them tremendously even in country. A few of those adult men who've learned were given a chance with a farm in the midwest to live there seasonally (and within the legal restrictions) to work on a potato farm.

But those kinds of opportunities are few and far between. And most young boys -- early teens -- are highly influenced to drop out of school b/c they need to work to make $$ for the family...so the circle continues -- until one of them can get to US and make real $$. They KNOW the risks -- specifically the risk of death / rape / violence on the trip, but the tradeoff is just too much, and the alternatives (the "legal" process") is just not readily available to most folks. Just as I'm sure it would not have been if a legal process had been in place when millions of Irish or Italians were coming over in the 1800s. There, but for the grace of God....

---

So Chem, that begs the question with the other part of my argument. Where does all the money go that we send to these countries for development purposes? Do we have any follow up on this money and how it's being used? If these countries were to improve, the lure of the US wouldn't be as desirable.

But, I just don't see how it makes sense for us to send millions to these countries for so many to only want to leave. If we want to take these people in, then we have to cut off the funding to these countries and use it here.

---

That was the part of my statement -- these countries are led by despots. Where does the money go -- likely like in a lot of US infrastructure projects here -- to pet initiatives -- except there, we have less control.

I mean, I guess we direct them to build more huge factories and train up employees so we could move more US mnfg jobs there?

I assume we send millions there because we don't want Nicaragua or other such countries being more heavily influenced by Russia? I doubt its for the good of the common person there.

caryking said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Some seem to believe that I believe that current policy at the border is fine. To clarify again I don't believe that nor do I believe that a wall and stepped up enforcement is the cure all for illegal immigration.

I don't believe that because I feel that it is a natural human nature to improve one's lot in life and being the the opportunity is greater in the US than any other nation in the world we should have an immigration policy that meets the demand of those who want to migrate to the US. Until that happens, you will NEVER get rid of illegal immigration.

It doesn't matter how high of wall you build humans are going to human

---

The wall and enforcement are meant to force people through the proper channels of legal immigration. I think we both agree that the proper channels is where the process needs adjusting. If someone is not willing to go through the proper channels, then maybe we don't want them here. We need to know who is coming into this country. Remember 9-11?

But again, we need to streamline the process.

---

I think if someone is willing to pay thousands to the cartels, then risk their life for each part of the journey, cross into the US in the desert and do all this without any guarantee for success and that's the EASIEST way to immigrate into the US, I question the process, not the person.

---

Really? They wouldn't do the same thing if they had a reason to evade the process...evade the authorities?

ETA: If they can afford to pay thousands to the cartel, why not go through the process and use that money to start your life in the US?

---

because Steve it is easier to get into the US illegally than legally. This is my point. This seems to be the point that you all are missing. The way to end illegal immigration is to provide more access to legal immigration. These people don't want to choose the path I described. They WOULD like to do so legally, it's just that that's impossible to do so.

There is never going to be a way for the US to limit the amount of people who want to come in from the Southern border except to increase the supply of means of legal entry.

BYW the going rate to pay cartels to get into the US is around $2500.

---

The only other way would be to make it better to stay in Central America. But most of those countries are led by despots who make Trump/Biden/any American leader look like saints.
In my experience, most people there live like rural poor people did in America 100 years ago.

So yeah....turning to America is by far the better option. In the community I've worked, we helped build a computer lab where people could learn English, as that clearly benefits them tremendously even in country. A few of those adult men who've learned were given a chance with a farm in the midwest to live there seasonally (and within the legal restrictions) to work on a potato farm.

But those kinds of opportunities are few and far between. And most young boys -- early teens -- are highly influenced to drop out of school b/c they need to work to make $$ for the family...so the circle continues -- until one of them can get to US and make real $$. They KNOW the risks -- specifically the risk of death / rape / violence on the trip, but the tradeoff is just too much, and the alternatives (the "legal" process") is just not readily available to most folks. Just as I'm sure it would not have been if a legal process had been in place when millions of Irish or Italians were coming over in the 1800s. There, but for the grace of God....

---

So Chem, that begs the question with the other part of my argument. Where does all the money go that we send to these countries for development purposes? Do we have any follow up on this money and how it's being used? If these countries were to improve, the lure of the US wouldn't be as desirable.

But, I just don't see how it makes sense for us to send millions to these countries for so many to only want to leave. If we want to take these people in, then we have to cut off the funding to these countries and use it here.

---

If chem is so passionate about these areas of concern, I would suggest he roll up his sleeves and move there. Raise private capital and build better education systems where the problems are.

The US is not the holding ground for all in need!!

---

LOL. The ol'' "if you don't like it, move out" from a guy who whines about the government multiple times every day.

I actually have been down there, a number of times. I don't pretend to understand it all....just bringing forth the human element, and the relative stupidity of telling people who live in abject poverty and are looking to make things better to "follow the law".

Steve Videtich said:

---

caryking said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

Packchem91 said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Some seem to believe that I believe that current policy at the border is fine. To clarify again I don't believe that nor do I believe that a wall and stepped up enforcement is the cure all for illegal immigration.

I don't believe that because I feel that it is a natural human nature to improve one's lot in life and being the the opportunity is greater in the US than any other nation in the world we should have an immigration policy that meets the demand of those who want to migrate to the US. Until that happens, you will NEVER get rid of illegal immigration.

It doesn't matter how high of wall you build humans are going to human

---

The wall and enforcement are meant to force people through the proper channels of legal immigration. I think we both agree that the proper channels is where the process needs adjusting. If someone is not willing to go through the proper channels, then maybe we don't want them here. We need to know who is coming into this country. Remember 9-11?

But again, we need to streamline the process.

---

I think if someone is willing to pay thousands to the cartels, then risk their life for each part of the journey, cross into the US in the desert and do all this without any guarantee for success and that's the EASIEST way to immigrate into the US, I question the process, not the person.

---

Really? They wouldn't do the same thing if they had a reason to evade the process...evade the authorities?

ETA: If they can afford to pay thousands to the cartel, why not go through the process and use that money to start your life in the US?

---

because Steve it is easier to get into the US illegally than legally. This is my point. This seems to be the point that you all are missing. The way to end illegal immigration is to provide more access to legal immigration. These people don't want to choose the path I described. They WOULD like to do so legally, it's just that that's impossible to do so.

There is never going to be a way for the US to limit the amount of people who want to come in from the Southern border except to increase the supply of means of legal entry.

BYW the going rate to pay cartels to get into the US is around $2500.

---

The only other way would be to make it better to stay in Central America. But most of those countries are led by despots who make Trump/Biden/any American leader look like saints.
In my experience, most people there live like rural poor people did in America 100 years ago.

So yeah....turning to America is by far the better option. In the community I've worked, we helped build a computer lab where people could learn English, as that clearly benefits them tremendously even in country. A few of those adult men who've learned were given a chance with a farm in the midwest to live there seasonally (and within the legal restrictions) to work on a potato farm.

But those kinds of opportunities are few and far between. And most young boys -- early teens -- are highly influenced to drop out of school b/c they need to work to make $$ for the family...so the circle continues -- until one of them can get to US and make real $$. They KNOW the risks -- specifically the risk of death / rape / violence on the trip, but the tradeoff is just too much, and the alternatives (the "legal" process") is just not readily available to most folks. Just as I'm sure it would not have been if a legal process had been in place when millions of Irish or Italians were coming over in the 1800s. There, but for the grace of God....

---

So Chem, that begs the question with the other part of my argument. Where does all the money go that we send to these countries for development purposes? Do we have any follow up on this money and how it's being used? If these countries were to improve, the lure of the US wouldn't be as desirable.

But, I just don't see how it makes sense for us to send millions to these countries for so many to only want to leave. If we want to take these people in, then we have to cut off the funding to these countries and use it here.

---

If chem is so passionate about these areas of concern, I would suggest he roll up his sleeves and move there. Raise private capital and build better education systems where the problems are.

The US is not the holding ground for all in need!!

---

https://spendmenot.com/blog/us-foreign-aid-per-country/

Here is a link I found that shows the amount of foreign aid the US sends out annually. It breaks it down by country and what the money is supposed to be doing. It's eye popping!

But look at the break down of Central American countries. Look at how many talk of fighting corruption. Nobody wants to leave citizens in these countries hanging in the wind. But, part off me thinks you end the corruption by cutting off the money train. If you're going to allow those citizens am opportunity in the US, then use the money for that opportunity here.

---

Yeah, i have no issue with spending the money here --- but, like our government moves $$$ to areas where it creates political influence here, I assume it is the same principal for $$ we send to Central America.

caryking said:

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BTW, should these illegals get US citizenship?

Also, what does everyone think about Russia invading Ukraine? Is Russia invading their National borders? Is this an attack on their Nationalism?

I believe the illegals coming in (roughly 1.5-2.0 million in 2021) is an attack on our Nationalism!!! An argument can be made that this is a war on America.


D-day (WW2) had about 156K allied forces hit the ground on the first days. February 2022 had 158K illegals hit our boarder.

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Are migrants rolling across our borders with tanks? And destroying cities? Killing civilians? Is this a serious analogy you're making? Do you know any migrants? I know quite a few. One is now (thanks to DACA) a radiologist. Another is a large animal vet. Another works at a food truck. They all pay taxes and contribute to society yet you think they are attacking our borders? Sheesh man.

Civilized said:

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caryking said:

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BTW, should these illegals get US citizenship?

Also, what does everyone think about Russia invading Ukraine? Is Russia invading their National borders? Is this an attack on their Nationalism?

I believe the illegals coming in (roughly 1.5-2.0 million in 2021) is an attack on our Nationalism!!! An argument can be made that this is a war on America.


D-day (WW2) had about 156K allied forces hit the ground on the first days. February 2022 had 158K illegals hit our boarder.

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No, we're not at war with migrants that want to live in our country.

Why would the issue of migration be framed as war? Migrants want a better life, not to attack our country.

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It helps if you can paint them as bad people/enemies.

Packchem91 said:

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caryking said:

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Steve Videtich said:

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Packchem91 said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Steve Videtich said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Steve Videtich said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Some seem to believe that I believe that current policy at the border is fine. To clarify again I don't believe that nor do I believe that a wall and stepped up enforcement is the cure all for illegal immigration.

I don't believe that because I feel that it is a natural human nature to improve one's lot in life and being the the opportunity is greater in the US than any other nation in the world we should have an immigration policy that meets the demand of those who want to migrate to the US. Until that happens, you will NEVER get rid of illegal immigration.

It doesn't matter how high of wall you build humans are going to human

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The wall and enforcement are meant to force people through the proper channels of legal immigration. I think we both agree that the proper channels is where the process needs adjusting. If someone is not willing to go through the proper channels, then maybe we don't want them here. We need to know who is coming into this country. Remember 9-11?

But again, we need to streamline the process.

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I think if someone is willing to pay thousands to the cartels, then risk their life for each part of the journey, cross into the US in the desert and do all this without any guarantee for success and that's the EASIEST way to immigrate into the US, I question the process, not the person.

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Really? They wouldn't do the same thing if they had a reason to evade the process...evade the authorities?

ETA: If they can afford to pay thousands to the cartel, why not go through the process and use that money to start your life in the US?

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because Steve it is easier to get into the US illegally than legally. This is my point. This seems to be the point that you all are missing. The way to end illegal immigration is to provide more access to legal immigration. These people don't want to choose the path I described. They WOULD like to do so legally, it's just that that's impossible to do so.

There is never going to be a way for the US to limit the amount of people who want to come in from the Southern border except to increase the supply of means of legal entry.

BYW the going rate to pay cartels to get into the US is around $2500.

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The only other way would be to make it better to stay in Central America. But most of those countries are led by despots who make Trump/Biden/any American leader look like saints.
In my experience, most people there live like rural poor people did in America 100 years ago.

So yeah....turning to America is by far the better option. In the community I've worked, we helped build a computer lab where people could learn English, as that clearly benefits them tremendously even in country. A few of those adult men who've learned were given a chance with a farm in the midwest to live there seasonally (and within the legal restrictions) to work on a potato farm.

But those kinds of opportunities are few and far between. And most young boys -- early teens -- are highly influenced to drop out of school b/c they need to work to make $$ for the family...so the circle continues -- until one of them can get to US and make real $$. They KNOW the risks -- specifically the risk of death / rape / violence on the trip, but the tradeoff is just too much, and the alternatives (the "legal" process") is just not readily available to most folks. Just as I'm sure it would not have been if a legal process had been in place when millions of Irish or Italians were coming over in the 1800s. There, but for the grace of God....

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So Chem, that begs the question with the other part of my argument. Where does all the money go that we send to these countries for development purposes? Do we have any follow up on this money and how it's being used? If these countries were to improve, the lure of the US wouldn't be as desirable.

But, I just don't see how it makes sense for us to send millions to these countries for so many to only want to leave. If we want to take these people in, then we have to cut off the funding to these countries and use it here.

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If chem is so passionate about these areas of concern, I would suggest he roll up his sleeves and move there. Raise private capital and build better education systems where the problems are.

The US is not the holding ground for all in need!!

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LOL. The ol'' "if you don't like it, move out" from a guy who whines about the government multiple times every day.

I actually have been down there, a number of times. I don't pretend to understand it all....just bringing forth the human element, and the relative stupidity of telling people who live in abject poverty and are looking to make things better to "follow the law".

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Chem, I think you will find most people are very sensitive to the plight of those in poverty, wherever they are. I can feel that way and still want a wall built. The US sends money all over the world to help. What are the results of those dollars? well, who knows...

What we do know is that the war on our border is out of control. It is a war when 100's of thousand of people are dying every year from fentanyl overdoses. I'm not blaming that on the impoverished; however, they are helping the situation by attempting to come here.

Regarding following the law: it is stated that 75% of the illegals that get here never come back for their hearing. So, they break the law coming here, then they break the law by not coming back for their hearing. No offense, but, that's not a stellar record for those that you point out as bringing a human element...

mrcpack17 said:

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caryking said:

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BTW, should these illegals get US citizenship?

Also, what does everyone think about Russia invading Ukraine? Is Russia invading their National borders? Is this an attack on their Nationalism?

I believe the illegals coming in (roughly 1.5-2.0 million in 2021) is an attack on our Nationalism!!! An argument can be made that this is a war on America.


D-day (WW2) had about 156K allied forces hit the ground on the first days. February 2022 had 158K illegals hit our boarder.

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Are migrants rolling across our borders with tanks? And destroying cities? Killing civilians? Is this a serious analogy you're making? Do you know any migrants? I know quite a few. One is now (thanks to DACA) a radiologist. Another is a large animal vet. Another works at a food truck. They all pay taxes and contribute to society yet you think they are attacking our borders? Sheesh man.

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fentanyl kills citizens and it's coming across the border with illegal immigrants!! So, based on your points, then yes, its a war!!!

Scratch that below...

It really doesn't make a difference if I know illegal immigrants or not, does it? But, since you are wanting to swing a big dick, when would you like to compare the amount of personal money you've given to people impoverished? I feel very comfortable putting that on the table with you. I hope you will beat me by the way you talk...

"That was the part of my statement -- these countries are led by despots. Where does the money go -- likely like in a lot of US infrastructure projects here -- to pet initiatives -- except there, we have less control."

REPLY- Should that be the case though n if year after year is not getting better? At what point do you stop if it's not worth your time?

"I mean, I guess we direct them to build more huge factories and train up employees so we could move more US mnfg jobs there?"

REPLY- Why not? This would reduce our dependence on China for much of the manufacturing we currently have. And help the citizens at the same time.

"I assume we send millions there because we don't want Nicaragua or other such countries being more heavily influenced by Russia? I doubt its for the good of the common person there."

REPLY- This I get! But it's already happening in some ways. Look at what China is doing in South America and Africa (and soon Afghanistan) in cornering these countries for their resources and nothing more. Particularly rare earth materials that are going to take over whenever the green movement actually becomes an energy source.

I'm okay with this money being spent if it benefits us as a country in multiple ways. Not just a yearly 40-50 billion dollar giveaway.