PackFansXL said:

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hokiewolf said:

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cowboypack02 said:

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hokiewolf said:

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cowboypack02 said:

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PackFansXL said:

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https://www.nationalreview.com/news/border-patrol-apprehends-165000-migrants-in-february-up-60-percent-from-previous-year/

The surge continues breaking records while this administration plans to remove Title 42. It's almost like this guy wants to damage the nation so much that future Presidents just give up and continue the downward spiral. What levels does the press consider a crisis?

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I think its the opposite. The current administration wants to let so much go that when a different administration tries to do something about it they'll be called racist, sexist, or whatever kinda ism that applies

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The best way to curb illegal immigration is to open up more opportunities for legal immigration. If the US did that, it would drastically reduce the amount of people trying to cross into the US illegally, because currently it is virtually impossible for the majority of persons wanting to migrate to the US from the Southern Border to do so.

If Congress would get serious about it rather than grandstanding at the border like both sides of the isle have done to score cheap political points in the last 5 years (4 years of democrats doing it while Trump was in office (I'm looking at you AOC and the gang) and this past year with Biden in office (cough Majorie Taylor Greene, cough)) this issue wouldn't continue to get worse and worse.

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Hear me out now.....what if we actually enforce the laws on the books as opposed to having certain administrations that just ignore those laws for "reasons". Having consistency across the board as far as how the laws are enforced would go along way to correcting a lot of the issues that we see with immigration.

Once we begin to do this then we can look at the current laws in place in terms of immigration, decide when/how it best benefits the US to either increase or decrease immigration, and finally the lawmakers that we have elected to office can actually pass laws for this.

Instead what we get is an everchanging way we enforce laws depending on who is in power at the time, which means that its a free for all and no one knows what is actually going on. People complain about the humanitarian crisis of unaccompanied minors at the border for example....wanna know how to correct for that...stop letting them illegally cross the border. Eventually people who are trying to immigrate illegally will stop because they know that its not a free pass into this country anymore.

---

The bolded part above, when has legal immigration hurt the US? If the goal is to end illegal immigration and reduce the amount of people trying to immigrate to the US, I think the best way to do that is to increase the availability of legal means. I know it sounds like I'm trying to be ironic, but I really think if you make it easier to get into the US legally, it will also reduce the amount of people trying to get into the US.

I have no issue what so ever for anyone to come into the US legally and try to improve their quality of life.

---

That's a bit like arguing that the best way to get people to obey speed laws is to increase the limits. All that happens is people drive ever faster up to and slightly over the increased limit.

Instead, we should return to the policies that the Trump administration enacted because those were clearly more effective. We want the best and the brightest immigrants, not just anyone desperate enough to pay the handlers to use and abuse them. I concur that the process for legal immigration is ridiculously cumbersome and slow. That's how government programs work though. Perhaps the process should be privatized. Regardless, we must stop incentivizing illegal immigration so we can control the type (skills and character, not race) and quantity of folks entering this country.

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it's basic supply and demand. If you want to stop illegal immigration then you have to answer the demand with a greater supply of legal immigration.

And Indont believe in protectionism of we get to decide who gets to come in and who doesn't. If you're coming to the US to work hard and improve your life then you should be welcome to do it legally.

That's the price we pay for being the best country in the world.

hokiewolf said:

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cowboypack02 said:

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hokiewolf said:

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cowboypack02 said:

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PackFansXL said:

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https://www.nationalreview.com/news/border-patrol-apprehends-165000-migrants-in-february-up-60-percent-from-previous-year/

The surge continues breaking records while this administration plans to remove Title 42. It's almost like this guy wants to damage the nation so much that future Presidents just give up and continue the downward spiral. What levels does the press consider a crisis?

---

I think its the opposite. The current administration wants to let so much go that when a different administration tries to do something about it they'll be called racist, sexist, or whatever kinda ism that applies

---

The best way to curb illegal immigration is to open up more opportunities for legal immigration. If the US did that, it would drastically reduce the amount of people trying to cross into the US illegally, because currently it is virtually impossible for the majority of persons wanting to migrate to the US from the Southern Border to do so.

If Congress would get serious about it rather than grandstanding at the border like both sides of the isle have done to score cheap political points in the last 5 years (4 years of democrats doing it while Trump was in office (I'm looking at you AOC and the gang) and this past year with Biden in office (cough Majorie Taylor Greene, cough)) this issue wouldn't continue to get worse and worse.

---

Hear me out now.....what if we actually enforce the laws on the books as opposed to having certain administrations that just ignore those laws for "reasons". Having consistency across the board as far as how the laws are enforced would go along way to correcting a lot of the issues that we see with immigration.

Once we begin to do this then we can look at the current laws in place in terms of immigration, decide when/how it best benefits the US to either increase or decrease immigration, and finally the lawmakers that we have elected to office can actually pass laws for this.

Instead what we get is an everchanging way we enforce laws depending on who is in power at the time, which means that its a free for all and no one knows what is actually going on. People complain about the humanitarian crisis of unaccompanied minors at the border for example....wanna know how to correct for that...stop letting them illegally cross the border. Eventually people who are trying to immigrate illegally will stop because they know that its not a free pass into this country anymore.

---

The bolded part above, when has legal immigration hurt the US? If the goal is to end illegal immigration and reduce the amount of people trying to immigrate to the US, I think the best way to do that is to increase the availability of legal means. I know it sounds like I'm trying to be ironic, but I really think if you make it easier to get into the US legally, it will also reduce the amount of people trying to get into the US.

I have no issue what so ever for anyone to come into the US legally and try to improve their quality of life.

---

I support legal immigration completely. Lets look at some of the things that are looked at when legally immigrating.

• for people with extraordinary skills (shown through national or international acclaim); academic researchers; and executives with multinational companies.
• for people with advanced degrees; exceptional abilities in the sciences, arts, or business; or whose admittance is in the national interest.
• for skilled workers with at least 2 years of training or work experience; professionals (those whose job requires a US college bachelor's degree or foreign equivalent); and unskilled workers (jobs that require less than 2 years of work experience).
• for "special immigrants" such as religious workers, military translators, and the employees of international organizations
• for investors who deploy at least $500,000 into job-creating ventures in the United States
• you'll have to properly document your skills, training, and any national or international recognition you've received. That's a complicated process, so seek legal counsel if you think you might be eligible.
• an employer to sponsor your application. For EB-2 and EB-3 visas, you'll also usually need labor certification showing that there are no American workers able to do the work for which you're being hired. Your employer will normally handle that process, and provide any legal guidance you need.
• If your trying to immigrate based on family you'll need affidavit of financial support from someone who'll ensure you don't fall into poverty after arriving in the United States. In most cases, your sponsoring relative will also be your financial sponsor, but if necessary a separate "joint sponsor" can pledge to support you. Either way, your financial sponsor must have a household income that's at least 125% of the federal poverty guidelines.

The US has allowed an average of 1,063,330 legal immigrants in per year that meet these qualifications and I don't have an issue with that.

Since the original discussion was about illegal immigration lets look at those numbers for a moment. There are an estimated 11.4 million illegal immigrants in this country. These 11.4 million will cost the United States approximately 83.2 Billion dollars this year, yet our federal government doesn't seem to have an interest in stopping the flow at all even through the country is being entered illegally. Those immigrants aren't meeting the qualifications about to make sure that they aren't a detriment to our society.

Yep, it's a supply and demand problem. I don't understand the sentiment of not wanting people to immigrate to America (not pointing at you, just puzzled by it). That would be the best way to put the US in decline globally.

hokiewolf said:

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Yep, it's a supply and demand problem. I don't understand the sentiment of not wanting people to immigrate to America (not pointing at you, just puzzled by it). That would be the best way to put the US in decline globally.

---

Hokie, I just want to understand where you're coming from. When you say a demand for immigration, what do you mean? Also, do you think we should we also allow the unskilled and illiterate into the US?

Hokie, I think you are looking at the supply and demand issue from the wrong perspective. When we allow free access to our labor roles through open gate illegal immigration, we are suppressing wages for those who legally entered the country and made the effort to become citizens. The renowned labor leader and civil rights activist, Cesar Chavez, was very outspoken in fighting for rights for farm workers. Even he was in favor of legal immigration and a staunch opponent of illegal immigration for the negative impact illegals have on the wages of entry level workers. We have these immigration laws for very good reasons.

cowboypack02 said:

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hokiewolf said:

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PackFansXL said:

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hokiewolf said:

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cowboypack02 said:

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hokiewolf said:

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cowboypack02 said:

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PackFansXL said:

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https://www.nationalreview.com/news/border-patrol-apprehends-165000-migrants-in-february-up-60-percent-from-previous-year/

The surge continues breaking records while this administration plans to remove Title 42. It's almost like this guy wants to damage the nation so much that future Presidents just give up and continue the downward spiral. What levels does the press consider a crisis?

---

I think its the opposite. The current administration wants to let so much go that when a different administration tries to do something about it they'll be called racist, sexist, or whatever kinda ism that applies

---

The best way to curb illegal immigration is to open up more opportunities for legal immigration. If the US did that, it would drastically reduce the amount of people trying to cross into the US illegally, because currently it is virtually impossible for the majority of persons wanting to migrate to the US from the Southern Border to do so.

If Congress would get serious about it rather than grandstanding at the border like both sides of the isle have done to score cheap political points in the last 5 years (4 years of democrats doing it while Trump was in office (I'm looking at you AOC and the gang) and this past year with Biden in office (cough Majorie Taylor Greene, cough)) this issue wouldn't continue to get worse and worse.

---

Hear me out now.....what if we actually enforce the laws on the books as opposed to having certain administrations that just ignore those laws for "reasons". Having consistency across the board as far as how the laws are enforced would go along way to correcting a lot of the issues that we see with immigration.

Once we begin to do this then we can look at the current laws in place in terms of immigration, decide when/how it best benefits the US to either increase or decrease immigration, and finally the lawmakers that we have elected to office can actually pass laws for this.

Instead what we get is an everchanging way we enforce laws depending on who is in power at the time, which means that its a free for all and no one knows what is actually going on. People complain about the humanitarian crisis of unaccompanied minors at the border for example....wanna know how to correct for that...stop letting them illegally cross the border. Eventually people who are trying to immigrate illegally will stop because they know that its not a free pass into this country anymore.

---

The bolded part above, when has legal immigration hurt the US? If the goal is to end illegal immigration and reduce the amount of people trying to immigrate to the US, I think the best way to do that is to increase the availability of legal means. I know it sounds like I'm trying to be ironic, but I really think if you make it easier to get into the US legally, it will also reduce the amount of people trying to get into the US.

I have no issue what so ever for anyone to come into the US legally and try to improve their quality of life.

---

That's a bit like arguing that the best way to get people to obey speed laws is to increase the limits. All that happens is people drive ever faster up to and slightly over the increased limit.

Instead, we should return to the policies that the Trump administration enacted because those were clearly more effective. We want the best and the brightest immigrants, not just anyone desperate enough to pay the handlers to use and abuse them. I concur that the process for legal immigration is ridiculously cumbersome and slow. That's how government programs work though. Perhaps the process should be privatized. Regardless, we must stop incentivizing illegal immigration so we can control the type (skills and character, not race) and quantity of folks entering this country.

---

it's basic supply and demand. If you want to stop illegal immigration then you have to answer the demand with a greater supply of legal immigration.

And Indont believe in protectionism of we get to decide who gets to come in and who doesn't. If you're coming to the US to work hard and improve your life then you should be welcome to do it legally.

That's the price we pay for being the best country in the world.

---

No you don't.

If you want to stop illegal immigration you enforce the laws and not allow people who don't follow our laws into the country. You deport the people who have come here illegally, and you make sure that the world knows that just because you can make it into the country, you won't be allowed to participate in a society that they are not helping to contribute to. That is how you stop illegal immigration.

You don't reward all of the people who have come here illegally by giving them a pathway to citizenship just because they were able to break our laws without punishment. That's how you get more illegal immigrants, not less

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I didn't say anything about rewarding the people who come here illegally, by all means send those illegals to the gulags if you want. I said that rules need to be applied that allow for greater legal immigration to meet the demand for total immigration. Clearly in your post above there is a 10,000,000+ greater demand for legal immigration then current supply

PackFansXL said:

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Hokie, I think you are looking at the supply and demand issue from the wrong perspective. When we allow free access to our labor roles through open gate illegal immigration, we are suppressing wages for those who legally entered the country and made the effort to become citizens. The renowned labor leader and civil rights activist, Cesar Chavez, was very outspoken in fighting for rights for farm workers. Even he was in favor of legal immigration and a staunch opponent of illegal immigration for the negative impact illegals have on the wages of entry level workers. We have these immigration laws for very good reasons.

---

I'm not in favor of illegal immigration, I never said I was. What I said was if you want to end illegal immigration then you have to increase the supply of paths to legal immigration

Steve Videtich said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Yep, it's a supply and demand problem. I don't understand the sentiment of not wanting people to immigrate to America (not pointing at you, just puzzled by it). That would be the best way to put the US in decline globally.

---

Hokie, I just want to understand where you're coming from. When you say a demand for immigration, what do you mean? Also, do you think we should we also allow the unskilled and illiterate into the US?

---

See two posts above

To answer your second question, the US needs ditch diggers too.

hokiewolf said:

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Steve Videtich said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Yep, it's a supply and demand problem. I don't understand the sentiment of not wanting people to immigrate to America (not pointing at you, just puzzled by it). That would be the best way to put the US in decline globally.

---

Hokie, I just want to understand where you're coming from. When you say a demand for immigration, what do you mean? Also, do you think we should we also allow the unskilled and illiterate into the US?

---

See two posts above

To answer your second question, the US needs ditch diggers too.

---

Okay, but then who ends up footing the bill for their education and and skill training? As for demand, don't we have a low participation rate of employment within our own citizenship right now?

I don't think anybody is against immigration. It's just how do we go about it? I don't think it's as simple as saying, as long as you go through these doors, everyone come in. I'm all for immigration, but they need to earn their way here and be a benefit to the country, not a burden.

We have almost 600,000 homeless in this country right now, many of whom are veterans. I would rather spend money getting them back into the workplace before spending on another country's cast-offs.

packgrad said:

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So we need to increase legal immigration by 10,000,000 to curb illegal immigration? Lol. Ok….

That's the solution to everything. Just make it legal. Working wonderfully with drugs and defunding the police.

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I think if you increase the supply and means of legal immigration then you will reduce the demand for illegal immigration. Also, if you increase the opportunity for legal means then the demand will drop and the flow will be more orderly and steady

Steve Videtich said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Steve Videtich said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Yep, it's a supply and demand problem. I don't understand the sentiment of not wanting people to immigrate to America (not pointing at you, just puzzled by it). That would be the best way to put the US in decline globally.

---

Hokie, I just want to understand where you're coming from. When you say a demand for immigration, what do you mean? Also, do you think we should we also allow the unskilled and illiterate into the US?

---

See two posts above

To answer your second question, the US needs ditch diggers too.

---

Okay, but then who ends up footing the bill for their education and and skill training? As for demand, don't we have a low participation rate of employment within our own citizenship right now?

I don't think anybody is against immigration. It's just how do we go about it? I don't think it's as simple as saying, as long as you go through these doors, everyone come in. I'm all for immigration, but they need to earn their way here and be a benefit to the country, not a burden.

We have almost 600,000 homeless in this country right now, many of whom are veterans. I would rather spend money getting them back into the workplace before spending on another country's cast-offs.

---

What is your definition of earning it? And how does that differ from mass immigration from Europe? Most of those folks where unskilled and illiterate. Seemed to turn out ok in the long run, no?

hokiewolf said:

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packgrad said:

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So we need to increase legal immigration by 10,000,000 to curb illegal immigration? Lol. Ok….

That's the solution to everything. Just make it legal. Working wonderfully with drugs and defunding the police.

---

I think if you increase the supply and means of legal immigration then you will reduce the demand for illegal immigration. Also, if you increase the opportunity for legal means then the demand will drop and the flow will be more orderly and steady

---

You keep stating that increasing the legal supply will stem the flow of illegals. This overlooks the effort required of anyone who wants to legally immigrate. They must put in effort and work through the process. Why would they do that when all they have to do is walk in and get a free bus ride to a city willing to house them. Do you recall how low the illegal numbers were during the last administration? Automatic deportation pretty much crushed the demand. What the heck am I missing here?

PackFansXL said:

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hokiewolf said:

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packgrad said:

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So we need to increase legal immigration by 10,000,000 to curb illegal immigration? Lol. Ok….

That's the solution to everything. Just make it legal. Working wonderfully with drugs and defunding the police.

---

I think if you increase the supply and means of legal immigration then you will reduce the demand for illegal immigration. Also, if you increase the opportunity for legal means then the demand will drop and the flow will be more orderly and steady

---

You keep stating that increasing the legal supply will stem the flow of illegals. This overlooks the effort required of anyone who wants to legally immigrate. They must put in effort and work through the process. Why would they do that when all they have to do is walk in and get a free bus ride to a city willing to house them. Do you recall how low the illegal numbers were during the last administration? Automatic deportation pretty much crushed the demand. What the heck am I missing here?

---

No I don't because the population off illegal immigrants in the US didn't change over Trumps 4 years even with stepped up deportations.

I'll give Trump credit though, he made it a lot harder to legally immigrate into the US while he was in office.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/bidens-year-one-in-immigration/

Quote:

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The disaster at the border exceeds anything we've ever seen, with close to 1.7 million arrests at the southern border in fiscal 2021. But part of that fiscal year was under Trump; as of today, during the Biden's first 365 days, arrests at the southern border will total a whopping 2 million. Of those 2 million arrests, perhaps 700,000 were released into the United States (the others being expelled under a public health order known in shorthand as Title 42). If you think any of those 700,000 will leave when their asylum claims are rejected (as most will be), I have an asteroid to sell you.

As the illegal flow at the border has ballooned, deportation of aliens from inside the country has collapsed. ICE's year-end report has still not been released, but data extracted through a Freedom of Information Act request shows that during the first five months of Biden's term, the number of deportations from inside the country fell 80 percent from the same period in 2020 and 90 percent from 2019.

---

Biden has already signaled he will terminate use of Title 42. Clearly the situation is much worse than it was under Trump.

Wonder what deportations would have been under Trump without all of the liberal sanctuary cities and jurisdictions harboring illegal aliens.

PackFansXL said:

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https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/bidens-year-one-in-immigration/

Quote:

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The disaster at the border exceeds anything we've ever seen, with close to 1.7 million arrests at the southern border in fiscal 2021. But part of that fiscal year was under Trump; as of today, during the Biden's first 365 days, arrests at the southern border will total a whopping 2 million. Of those 2 million arrests, perhaps 700,000 were released into the United States (the others being expelled under a public health order known in shorthand as Title 42). If you think any of those 700,000 will leave when their asylum claims are rejected (as most will be), I have an asteroid to sell you.

As the illegal flow at the border has ballooned, deportation of aliens from inside the country has collapsed. ICE's year-end report has still not been released, but data extracted through a Freedom of Information Act request shows that during the first five months of Biden's term, the number of deportations from inside the country fell 80 percent from the same period in 2020 and 90 percent from 2019.

---

Biden has already signaled he will terminate use of Title 42. Clearly the situation is much worse than it was under Trump.

---

so I didn't say the situation was worse when Trump was in office. Clearly it's worse now.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/03/how-trump-got-control-of-the-border/

Quote:

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Soon after Trump took office, in early 2017, the number of migrants dropped precipitously thanks to the so-called Trump effect, the belief south of the border that Trump would enforce the law so zealously that it would be pointless to try to come. Slowly but surely, though, everyone realized that the underlying rules hadn't changed, and the numbers bounced back.

A former senior DOJ official characterizes the attitude of potential migrants as, "'Well, he's saying he's going to do these things, but my friends and family are sending me messages on social media saying they made it through. So I am just going to go ahead and take a chance.' And that was only possible because of these glaring loopholes that were applicable to certain demographics."

Every practice was examined and every legal authority reviewed to see how to put the system on a more rational basis. An official familiar with the issue says that the administration was "looking at all of the various laws that are on the books and saying, 'Look, we've only been giving out the sort of benefits and not using all aspects of the law. Why don't we just fully utilize all of the law, and it will get us what we need?'"

Changes large and small added up to a new, multi-pronged approach that made a difference.

Mark Morgan, who became acting commissioner of CBP in July 2019, recalls that at its peak, roughly 150,000 migrants were apprehended in a month, with more than 5,000 on some days. Then, by February 2020, prior to the pandemic, the flow had been reduced by about 75 percent, and families and unaccompanied children dropped precipitously. "Our in-custody numbers had gone from 20,000 to just over 3,000," he says. "Our daily flow had gone from the height of 5,000 to just over 1,200. And at one point, it actually dropped below 1,000, which is a significant goal."

An important change was how we handled asylum claims.

---

This is a long article rich in details on the methods followed by the Trump administration to get control of the border. I found it interesting that many of the laws on the books had been passed during the Clinton administration but most of those laws were not enforced. It took a great deal of effort, but they were ultimately successful. That is until the Covid virus and Biden virus destroyed all progress.

hokiewolf said:

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Steve Videtich said:

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hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Yep, it's a supply and demand problem. I don't understand the sentiment of not wanting people to immigrate to America (not pointing at you, just puzzled by it). That would be the best way to put the US in decline globally.

---

Hokie, I just want to understand where you're coming from. When you say a demand for immigration, what do you mean? Also, do you think we should we also allow the unskilled and illiterate into the US?

---

See two posts above

To answer your second question, the US needs ditch diggers too.

---

Okay, but then who ends up footing the bill for their education and and skill training? As for demand, don't we have a low participation rate of employment within our own citizenship right now?

I don't think anybody is against immigration. It's just how do we go about it? I don't think it's as simple as saying, as long as you go through these doors, everyone come in. I'm all for immigration, but they need to earn their way here and be a benefit to the country, not a burden.

We have almost 600,000 homeless in this country right now, many of whom are veterans. I would rather spend money getting them back into the workplace before spending on another country's cast-offs.

---

What is your definition of earning it? And how does that differ from mass immigration from Europe? Most of those folks where unskilled and illiterate. Seemed to turn out ok in the long run, no?

---

Proving that you have a means of taking care of yourself and providing for family if included. Not coming here with nothing in your pocket and having to use government money to aquire skills for working. Staying out of trouble with the laws of our country and not being a negative. How many countries in this world will give citizenship to somebody that shows up with no skills and broke.

Steve Videtich said:

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hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Yep, it's a supply and demand problem. I don't understand the sentiment of not wanting people to immigrate to America (not pointing at you, just puzzled by it). That would be the best way to put the US in decline globally.

---

Hokie, I just want to understand where you're coming from. When you say a demand for immigration, what do you mean? Also, do you think we should we also allow the unskilled and illiterate into the US?

---

See two posts above

To answer your second question, the US needs ditch diggers too.

---

Okay, but then who ends up footing the bill for their education and and skill training? As for demand, don't we have a low participation rate of employment within our own citizenship right now?

I don't think anybody is against immigration. It's just how do we go about it? I don't think it's as simple as saying, as long as you go through these doors, everyone come in. I'm all for immigration, but they need to earn their way here and be a benefit to the country, not a burden.

We have almost 600,000 homeless in this country right now, many of whom are veterans. I would rather spend money getting them back into the workplace before spending on another country's cast-offs.

---

What is your definition of earning it? And how does that differ from mass immigration from Europe? Most of those folks where unskilled and illiterate. Seemed to turn out ok in the long run, no?

---

Proving that you have a means of taking care of yourself and providing for family if included. Not coming here with nothing in your pocket and having to use government money to aquire skills for working. Staying out of trouble with the laws of our country and not being a negative. How many countries in this world will give citizenship to somebody that shows up with no skills and broke.

---

so how does one go about getting the skills and money deemed necessary to enter the US legally? You also skipped over the second part of the question. How is this any different then the mass immigration of Europeans to the US during the 1800s and early 1900s?

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Yep, it's a supply and demand problem. I don't understand the sentiment of not wanting people to immigrate to America (not pointing at you, just puzzled by it). That would be the best way to put the US in decline globally.

---

Hokie, I just want to understand where you're coming from. When you say a demand for immigration, what do you mean? Also, do you think we should we also allow the unskilled and illiterate into the US?

---

See two posts above

To answer your second question, the US needs ditch diggers too.

---

Okay, but then who ends up footing the bill for their education and and skill training? As for demand, don't we have a low participation rate of employment within our own citizenship right now?

I don't think anybody is against immigration. It's just how do we go about it? I don't think it's as simple as saying, as long as you go through these doors, everyone come in. I'm all for immigration, but they need to earn their way here and be a benefit to the country, not a burden.

We have almost 600,000 homeless in this country right now, many of whom are veterans. I would rather spend money getting them back into the workplace before spending on another country's cast-offs.

---

What is your definition of earning it? And how does that differ from mass immigration from Europe? Most of those folks where unskilled and illiterate. Seemed to turn out ok in the long run, no?

---

Proving that you have a means of taking care of yourself and providing for family if included. Not coming here with nothing in your pocket and having to use government money to aquire skills for working. Staying out of trouble with the laws of our country and not being a negative. How many countries in this world will give citizenship to somebody that shows up with no skills and broke.

---

Any country that has a need for unskilled labor like farming, landscaping, service industry jobs? Jobs that most of our citizens have outpaced (in minds, if not in skills)?

I've been on a number of mission trips to Central America where construction is involved....the 2-3 hardest workers I've ever met in my life, were there, and probably have earned less in that poor region in their lives than you make in a month.
There will be jobs for those folks here -- and it will pay them many more times than they'd get down tehre for the same work --- enough they send much of it back (in the one community I've been too most in Honduras, the homes where the dad is in America is obvious, because they are much nicer)

So do you tell these folks in the process -- sorry, we don't need farm labor, construction labor, hotel workers, etc? Then who does those jobs? I'd be with you if we had tons of lower-income, or displaced Americans lining up for that work -- but lord, many places can't even staff their businesses now with lower-skilled resources.

***I don't have the answers....its complicated (and for me, a bit emotional). We need controls, and a reasonable process to legally immigrate, no doubt. But I think assuming folks who show up at our doors who don't have degrees are not capable of "taking care of themselves and family" is a bit ignorant.

Apparently now compromised.

Packchem91 said:

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Steve Videtich said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Steve Videtich said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Steve Videtich said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Yep, it's a supply and demand problem. I don't understand the sentiment of not wanting people to immigrate to America (not pointing at you, just puzzled by it). That would be the best way to put the US in decline globally.

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Hokie, I just want to understand where you're coming from. When you say a demand for immigration, what do you mean? Also, do you think we should we also allow the unskilled and illiterate into the US?

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See two posts above

To answer your second question, the US needs ditch diggers too.

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Okay, but then who ends up footing the bill for their education and and skill training? As for demand, don't we have a low participation rate of employment within our own citizenship right now?

I don't think anybody is against immigration. It's just how do we go about it? I don't think it's as simple as saying, as long as you go through these doors, everyone come in. I'm all for immigration, but they need to earn their way here and be a benefit to the country, not a burden.

We have almost 600,000 homeless in this country right now, many of whom are veterans. I would rather spend money getting them back into the workplace before spending on another country's cast-offs.

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What is your definition of earning it? And how does that differ from mass immigration from Europe? Most of those folks where unskilled and illiterate. Seemed to turn out ok in the long run, no?

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Proving that you have a means of taking care of yourself and providing for family if included. Not coming here with nothing in your pocket and having to use government money to aquire skills for working. Staying out of trouble with the laws of our country and not being a negative. How many countries in this world will give citizenship to somebody that shows up with no skills and broke.

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Any country that has a need for unskilled labor like farming, landscaping, service industry jobs? Jobs that most of our citizens have outpaced (in minds, if not in skills)?

I've been on a number of mission trips to Central America where construction is involved....the 2-3 hardest workers I've ever met in my life, were there, and probably have earned less in that poor region in their lives than you make in a month.
There will be jobs for those folks here -- and it will pay them many more times than they'd get down tehre for the same work --- enough they send much of it back (in the one community I've been too most in Honduras, the homes where the dad is in America is obvious, because they are much nicer)

So do you tell these folks in the process -- sorry, we don't need farm labor, construction labor, hotel workers, etc? Then who does those jobs? I'd be with you if we had tons of lower-income, or displaced Americans lining up for that work -- but lord, many places can't even staff their businesses now with lower-skilled resources.

***I don't have the answers....its complicated (and for me, a bit emotional). We need controls, and a reasonable process to legally immigrate, no doubt. But I think assuming folks who show up at our doors who don't have degrees are not capable of "taking care of themselves and family" is a bit ignorant.

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Your example is one of somebody that has proven skills as a laborer or construction person. I welcome them with open arms. I still believe this is the land of opportunity and it should be for anyone that is willing to pay the price like so many have before. I'm not saying any different.

I'm not talking about making the process hard. But it should be earned, not given by filling out a one page piece of paper and getting your picture taken. Even in Trumps time, we still had more immigrants than any other country in the world, but it was controlled. What is wrong with that?

Steve Videtich said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Steve Videtich said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Steve Videtich said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Steve Videtich said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Yep, it's a supply and demand problem. I don't understand the sentiment of not wanting people to immigrate to America (not pointing at you, just puzzled by it). That would be the best way to put the US in decline globally.

---

Hokie, I just want to understand where you're coming from. When you say a demand for immigration, what do you mean? Also, do you think we should we also allow the unskilled and illiterate into the US?

---

See two posts above

To answer your second question, the US needs ditch diggers too.

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Okay, but then who ends up footing the bill for their education and and skill training? As for demand, don't we have a low participation rate of employment within our own citizenship right now?

I don't think anybody is against immigration. It's just how do we go about it? I don't think it's as simple as saying, as long as you go through these doors, everyone come in. I'm all for immigration, but they need to earn their way here and be a benefit to the country, not a burden.

We have almost 600,000 homeless in this country right now, many of whom are veterans. I would rather spend money getting them back into the workplace before spending on another country's cast-offs.

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What is your definition of earning it? And how does that differ from mass immigration from Europe? Most of those folks where unskilled and illiterate. Seemed to turn out ok in the long run, no?

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Proving that you have a means of taking care of yourself and providing for family if included. Not coming here with nothing in your pocket and having to use government money to aquire skills for working. Staying out of trouble with the laws of our country and not being a negative. How many countries in this world will give citizenship to somebody that shows up with no skills and broke.

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so how does one go about getting the skills and money deemed necessary to enter the US legally? You also skipped over the second part of the question. How is this any different then the mass immigration of Europeans to the US during the 1800s and early 1900s?

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It's a different Era all together. Things were completely different. The country was still developing and growing as a nation. We didn't have 330M people already here. Plus they came here and found their way. They earned it!

As for finding their skills... let me ask you this. Why are we sending millions and billions of dollars to all these countries for economic development? These countries should be using this money to turn their countries around so that they're is no reason to leave, so that they can develop industries that our their citizens to work and develop the skills for them.

If you want to stop the ridiculous amount of money we send around the world, for them to only turn around and send us their cast-offs, then maybe we can have a conversation about loosening up the path into this country. But, these countries are having their cake and eat it too, at the expense of US taxpayers.

Let's fix this country first before we worry about trying to fix the rest of the entire world!

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"send us their castoffs", lol.
Clearly some bad mofos get mixed into these crowds....but do you really think most of the people looking to leave behind family, the only home ever known, risk travelling for weeks at the risk of death, are just cast-off bad guys these despot governments are sending up, and not real people -- just like you are me, but born under completely different circumstances?

Weed out the bad, no doubt. Have a rigid but fair process for the majority. We get mad when Dems use identity politics and segregate by all kinds of factors....but I'm having a tough time reading what you just wrote and not seeing the exact same thing.

Your seeing the current desperation because the legal means of entry are not available. Again, if you fix the legal means and allow for more efficient entry, you reduce the chaos at the border, ie families sending children over by themselves.

Do we not understand that the desperation to use illegal means is there because the legal means is not readily available. Why is that so hard to comprehend? It's part of the current picture.

Sending money is not the same as opportunity. The opportunity is greater in the US then in their current country. That's not a bad thing to me. I want to live in a country that people want to migrate to.

This is the same with low income areas. Money doesn't equal opportunity

That thinking is just so completely backwards I wouldn't even know where to start... so I won't.

Agree to disagree.

On the topic of immigration. Trump certainly made it a lot harder to do it the right way. His administration changed a few things that truly make the process an even bigger nightmare then it was before. My wife is Canadian and we've been going through the paperwork process for 12 months now with another 12 months possible before we get an interview with immigration. I can understand why so many do it illegally. The process of doing it legally is an absolute joke of a process.

What are the countries we should model our immigration policy after?

hokiewolf said:

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caryking said:

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Keep an eye on the US dollar. Because the Biden admin has created an economic war against Russia's Ruble, they are now looking to move to another transactional currency (China Yuan). This morning Saudi Arabia is now exploring the same idea.

If the US dollar is no longer the world currency, that would mean we could no longer print money like we do. On the surface, that sounds like a good thing; however, is our system infrastructure able to handle this?

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I disagree here Cary, Saudi and China have been in talks to purchase Saudi oil using the Yuan, and those talks have been going on for 6 years. The pressure put on Russia due to their invading of Ukraine really has nothing to do with it.

The Saudis are pissed about several things - Not helping the Saudis intervene in the Yemini civil war, US negotiating with Iran on a nuclear deal, and probably most recently Biden's rhetoric with respect to the Saudi royals. You can probably throw in the exit from Afghanistan as well for kicks and grins.

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Hokie, I don't see where you are disagreeing with me. It appears as if you are adding more context. I'm confident (although I don't know) talks, from Saudi, have been going on for some time; however, a more emphatic statement came out yesterday about them considering the option.

My point about Saudi didn't mean to infer the crumbling Ruble is causing them to think this. My point was the idea of another world reserve currency could gain momentum. If this happens, then that would be bad news for the US.

hokiewolf said:

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Your seeing the current desperation because the legal means of entry are not available. Again, if you fix the legal means and allow for more efficient entry, you reduce the chaos at the border, ie families sending children over by themselves.

Do we not understand that the desperation to use illegal means is there because the legal means is not readily available. Why is that so hard to comprehend? It's part of the current picture.

Sending money is not the same as opportunity. The opportunity is greater in the US then in their current country. That's not a bad thing to me. I want to live in a country that people want to migrate to.

This is the same with low income areas. Money doesn't equal opportunity

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Hokie, when people use the term "America First", that's what they mean. The citizens of America are first!!!

It is a privilege to be an American Citizen. I am confident the process for legal immigration is completely bureaucratic (just look at dealing with any government agency); so, I would support a simpler process. Additionally, I would limit the number of acceptance per year.

Also, you would see more National support of this change if we just build the damn wall! I believe the biggest bid and ask between opposing opinions is: what do you do first? Border Security or immigration changes.

We just spent 14B on Ukraine (the bill passed last week) without much to support our border. Both Republicans and Democrats voted for this bill, so, I don't trust congress to do anything right! Those people do not support the will of their constituents and we keep voting those hacks into office!

Steve Videtich said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Steve Videtich said:

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hokiewolf said:

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Steve Videtich said:

---

hokiewolf said:

---

Yep, it's a supply and demand problem. I don't understand the sentiment of not wanting people to immigrate to America (not pointing at you, just puzzled by it). That would be the best way to put the US in decline globally.

---

Hokie, I just want to understand where you're coming from. When you say a demand for immigration, what do you mean? Also, do you think we should we also allow the unskilled and illiterate into the US?

---

See two posts above

To answer your second question, the US needs ditch diggers too.

---

Okay, but then who ends up footing the bill for their education and and skill training? As for demand, don't we have a low participation rate of employment within our own citizenship right now?

I don't think anybody is against immigration. It's just how do we go about it? I don't think it's as simple as saying, as long as you go through these doors, everyone come in. I'm all for immigration, but they need to earn their way here and be a benefit to the country, not a burden.

We have almost 600,000 homeless in this country right now, many of whom are veterans. I would rather spend money getting them back into the workplace before spending on another country's cast-offs.

---

What is your definition of earning it? And how does that differ from mass immigration from Europe? Most of those folks where unskilled and illiterate. Seemed to turn out ok in the long run, no?

---

Proving that you have a means of taking care of yourself and providing for family if included. Not coming here with nothing in your pocket and having to use government money to aquire skills for working. Staying out of trouble with the laws of our country and not being a negative. How many countries in this world will give citizenship to somebody that shows up with no skills and broke.

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Where is this impression coming from that Mexican immigrants come here to break the law and sit around getting fat and living off the government?

Come hang out with me on job sites for a few days or ride down East in NC with Migrant Ministries. That impression would go away real quick-like. Those "no-skills" immigrants are keenly interested in capitalism and opportunity and learning a trade or skill or even providing unskilled labor to pay their bills. They're grinding to make a buck at a higher clip than born-and-raised Americans. What "government money" are they using to "acquire skills?"

As a rule people don't risk their family's future often and their own life getting here and then immediately become wastes of oxygen once they do.

RunsWithWolves26 said:

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On the topic of immigration. Trump certainly made it a lot harder to do it the right way. His administration changed a few things that truly make the process an even bigger nightmare then it was before. My wife is Canadian and we've been going through the paperwork process for 12 months now with another 12 months possible before we get an interview with immigration. I can understand why so many do it illegally. The process of doing it legally is an absolute joke of a process.

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I am sure your experience sucks. I would ask you to consider the following: regardless of how much it sucks, it is the process and all immigration has to follow it. So, I thank you for doing this!

For all the others that are doing it illegally, well, we should stop it 100%!!! If you would support getting the 100% stoppage and I'm confident support for simplifying the process will come. So, unfortunately, you have to be stuck in the process, until change comes…