Civil Rights Activist Promotes Alternative to the CRT Wave Sweeping Our Schools

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caryking
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In reply to IseWolf22 • 10:09a, 7/26/21
IseWolf22 said:
pineknollshoresking said:
GuerrillaPack said:
PackFansXL said:
IseWolf22 said:


Whenever a conservative person or idea is censored or de-platformed, the justification is, "We don't want to legitimize it. The debate is not worth having."

Virtually nothing should be banned from discussion. The marketplace of ideas includes bad ones. As the article points out we still learn about communism in school.

The emphasis in school should be on open discussion and critical examination of ideas in a thoughtful and non-adversarial way. But I see very few people arguing for this. It's mostly each side trying to impose their views and justifying it with whataboutism on the other side.
I agree with this in principle. Finding school leaders willing to approach things this way seems far less likely in our currently polarized environment.
It sounds good in principle to have an open debate on all issues. But it's just not how the world works. Could you see public schools, for instance, teaching both the flat earth & Biblical fundamentalist view of cosmology and the globe/heliocentric/Big_Bang view of cosmology? Or, in regards to the CRT, could you see public schools being totally open to a debate and teaching that "the U.S. is an evil white supremacist country", and also on the flip side teach that "white supremacy is a GOOD thing" and "let's debate the good aspects of white nationalism"? Or do they teach both the view that "homosexuality and transgenderism are acceptable lifestyles" and the opposite view that "homosexuality and transgenderism are deviant, sinful lifestyles and forms of mental illness"?

What actually ends up happening 99% of the time is that you choose one side of every important issue, and teach that view to the students. What really needs to happen is that you break the monopoly of the Marxist-controlled government public schools...and allow parents more choice in where their children go to school and what they are taught...instead of the current situation where they are forced (via taxation) to fund the government schools that are pushing a far Left Marxist/atheist/anti-Christian agenda.


Isle, please respond to GP on his examples

CRT you a not critical thinking and not based on fact! It's a diatribe that shouldn't be exposed to the masses unless people want to research outside of our education system.

Unfortunately, the education system is so full of people that love to bring up outlandish thoughts, ideas, and things that are far from truth! These people have taken root in our government, at all levels, and they are warping the minds of our youth (my bet is that you were warped as well).


I 100% support school choice and backpack funding.

Other than that I'm not going to wade into homosexuality being a "deviant lifestyle" or teaching something observably untrue (flat earthism). It's not going to be something we will ever agree on and will not be productive or a good use of time.

You missed the point... GP is arguing that: if one issue is taught as truth, when we know no evidence supports it as truth, then are you going to be comfortable with other issue being taught?

I'm not getting into whether I agree with GP's statements about the issues he brought up, Im just asking why shouldn't they be taught with the following mindset:

The emphasis in school should be on open discussion and critical examination of ideas in a thoughtful and non-adversarial way.
On the illegal or criminal immigrants…

“they built the country, the reason our economy is growing”

Joe Biden
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cowboypack02
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In reply to caryking • 10:59a, 7/26/21
pineknollshoresking said:
IseWolf22 said:
pineknollshoresking said:
GuerrillaPack said:
PackFansXL said:
IseWolf22 said:


Whenever a conservative person or idea is censored or de-platformed, the justification is, "We don't want to legitimize it. The debate is not worth having."

Virtually nothing should be banned from discussion. The marketplace of ideas includes bad ones. As the article points out we still learn about communism in school.

The emphasis in school should be on open discussion and critical examination of ideas in a thoughtful and non-adversarial way. But I see very few people arguing for this. It's mostly each side trying to impose their views and justifying it with whataboutism on the other side.
I agree with this in principle. Finding school leaders willing to approach things this way seems far less likely in our currently polarized environment.
It sounds good in principle to have an open debate on all issues. But it's just not how the world works. Could you see public schools, for instance, teaching both the flat earth & Biblical fundamentalist view of cosmology and the globe/heliocentric/Big_Bang view of cosmology? Or, in regards to the CRT, could you see public schools being totally open to a debate and teaching that "the U.S. is an evil white supremacist country", and also on the flip side teach that "white supremacy is a GOOD thing" and "let's debate the good aspects of white nationalism"? Or do they teach both the view that "homosexuality and transgenderism are acceptable lifestyles" and the opposite view that "homosexuality and transgenderism are deviant, sinful lifestyles and forms of mental illness"?

What actually ends up happening 99% of the time is that you choose one side of every important issue, and teach that view to the students. What really needs to happen is that you break the monopoly of the Marxist-controlled government public schools...and allow parents more choice in where their children go to school and what they are taught...instead of the current situation where they are forced (via taxation) to fund the government schools that are pushing a far Left Marxist/atheist/anti-Christian agenda.


Isle, please respond to GP on his examples

CRT you a not critical thinking and not based on fact! It's a diatribe that shouldn't be exposed to the masses unless people want to research outside of our education system.

Unfortunately, the education system is so full of people that love to bring up outlandish thoughts, ideas, and things that are far from truth! These people have taken root in our government, at all levels, and they are warping the minds of our youth (my bet is that you were warped as well).


I 100% support school choice and backpack funding.

Other than that I'm not going to wade into homosexuality being a "deviant lifestyle" or teaching something observably untrue (flat earthism). It's not going to be something we will ever agree on and will not be productive or a good use of time.

You missed the point... GP is arguing that: if one issue is taught as truth, when we know no evidence supports it as truth, then are you going to be comfortable with other issue being taught?

I'm not getting into whether I agree with GP's statements about the issues he brought up, Im just asking why shouldn't they be taught with the following mindset:

The emphasis in school should be on open discussion and critical examination of ideas in a thoughtful and non-adversarial way.
No.....absolutely not.

The folks who are teaching 5 year old children should not be fostering an open discussion about anything. They should be teaching children letters and how to write, numbers and how to calculate...not social justice and the conversations that the kids should be having with their parents. If you don't think its happening looks at my quote from the above comment.

"What we're seeing right now is another boiling point in America: the effects of systemic and institutionalized racism coming to a head. Black Americans and their allies are coming together to stand up to injustices"

The woman this quote is from is teaching elementary school in Fayetteville, NC. She should not be anywhere near a classroom with that mindset. As a matter of fact you can look up her name and picture on the NEA website. If I had kids in Fayetteville going to school with her I would have them moved.
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IseWolf22
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In reply to cowboypack02 • 7:24p, 7/26/21
Elementary school kids obviously lack the capacity to debate and critically analyze anything. But by highschool there is nothing wrong with learning about different ideas and how to analyze and debate them. If they don't encounter it in school they will certainly find it online
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8:15p, 7/26/21
https://amgreatness.com/2021/07/23/critical-witchcraft-theory/

Quote:
Contemporary Americans tend to scoff at the credulousness of those Puritans in Salem who leveled deadly accusations based on the phantoms of their own imaginations. But here we are, in the age of critical race theory, still doing it.

CRT is based on the claim that an insidious, pervasive, but invisible force inhabits all Americans and American institutions. This invisible force exists outside the conscious experience of those who harbor it. Those purveyors of systemic racism are its hapless servants who believe in their own innocence as much as poor Sarah Good did when she got her chance to testify at the Salem trials.
Quote:
How Ibram X. Kendi views systemic racism: "one of the fastest-spreading and most fatal cancers humanity has ever known . . . There is nothing I see in the world today, in our history, giving me hope that one day antiracists will win the fight, that one day the flag of antiracism will fly over the world of equity." Kendi's perspective, consistent with Puritan theology, is that this world has been given over to the corruptions of the infernal powers.
Quote:
Superficially this is a sociological insight, but to the extent that sociology is a real discipline dependent upon careful and critical analysis of empirical evidence, "systemic racism" is not a sociological theory. It is theology, or more precisely it is a demonology: a theory of witchcraft. It has no proof that "systemic racism" exists in modern American society. All it has is a Salem-esque panic based on the pseudo-authoritative declaration that it exists.
Quote:
The rise and widespread acceptance within elite institutions of the theory of systemic racism may surprise many Americans who pride themselves on their secular rationality. We are past the age of credulous enthusiasms, or so we like to think. This is a time when we give highest authority to views that we elevate to the status of "science." It is an amusing conceit, especially considering the ease with which ideologies that have very weak scientific foundationsor none at allmanage to appropriate the name of science for whatever collection of suppositions and spurious inferences they wish to sell.
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cowboypack02
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In reply to IseWolf22 • 8:58p, 7/26/21
IseWolf22 said:
Elementary school kids obviously lack the capacity to debate and critically analyze anything. But by highschool there is nothing wrong with learning about different ideas and how to analyze and debate them. If they don't encounter it in school they will certainly find it online


That's my point...they do lack the capacity to debate and critically analyze CRT...but they still get it.

Here is an elementary school in VA




You said that High School students should be able to learn different ideas and I wholeheartedly agree with you, but the problem is they won't be taught ideas...they are going to be taught a single idea. They'll be taught about how while people are racist, they'll be taught about Marxism and how socialist is great, and you didn't earn what you have, regardl as of how hard you actually worked. White kids will be taught that they are oppressing minorities through micro aggressions and minorities will be taught that white people are out to get them. 2/3 of the teachers in NC pay dues to a union who preaches social and racial justice...those teachers aren't going to have an open discussion about view points that they disagree with. If they were we' d see news stories come out about children being taught that...but we don't...we only see the social justice stuff in the schools.

You say having teachers give these opinions is a good thing...I say that encourage teachers to do that is going to extent the feeling of conservative students that you can't voice their opinions in things to the HS level
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GuerrillaPack
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9:20p, 7/26/21
It's "pie in the sky" to pretend that the Leftists who run the NEA and the public schools are going to allow children to have a "debate" or present both sides of the argument on important issues. That's not how the Marxist Left operates. Their modus operandi is to silence their opposition. Leftist-run Big Tech (Facebook, YouTube, etc) already will not allow a debate on many issues, and is accelerating censorship against right-wing views - eg, censoring anti-vaxx views, banning pro-Trump groups, banning "conspiracy theory" views on various Govt-staged mass shootings and terrorist acts, etc.
"Ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." - John 15:19
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cowboypack02
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In reply to IseWolf22 • 9:48p, 7/26/21
IseWolf22 said:
Elementary school kids obviously lack the capacity to debate and critically analyze anything. But by highschool there is nothing wrong with learning about different ideas and how to analyze and debate them. If they don't encounter it in school they will certainly find it online


Sad that the people we entrust out kids to who should know that young children lack the capacity to critically analyze things can't help themselves

https://www.dailywire.com/news/teacher-tells-4th-grade-girl-to-hide-equity-survey-from-parents-mom-fires-back-equity-is-the-mask-that-critical-race-theory-theory-hides-behind?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=benshapiro
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IseWolf22
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In reply to cowboypack02 • 12:14p, 7/27/21
cowboypack02 said:
IseWolf22 said:
Elementary school kids obviously lack the capacity to debate and critically analyze anything. But by highschool there is nothing wrong with learning about different ideas and how to analyze and debate them. If they don't encounter it in school they will certainly find it online


That's my point...they do lack the capacity to debate and critically analyze CRT...but they still get it.

Here is an elementary school in VA




You said that High School students should be able to learn different ideas and I wholeheartedly agree with you, but the problem is they won't be taught ideas...they are going to be taught a single idea. They'll be taught about how while people are racist, they'll be taught about Marxism and how socialist is great, and you didn't earn what you have, regardl as of how hard you actually worked. White kids will be taught that they are oppressing minorities through micro aggressions and minorities will be taught that white people are out to get them. 2/3 of the teachers in NC pay dues to a union who preaches social and racial justice...those teachers aren't going to have an open discussion about view points that they disagree with. If they were we' d see news stories come out about children being taught that...but we don't...we only see the social justice stuff in the schools.

You say having teachers give these opinions is a good thing...I say that encourage teachers to do that is going to extent the feeling of conservative students that you can't voice their opinions in things to the HS level
You wouldn't see new stories on this because that is or should be the status quo and that doesn't make news. Did yall not learn about communism in school? About redlining, civil rights, trail of tears, etc? I know I did, but it was certainly presented in a fairly neutral way. Facts were presented and discussion was had at age appropriate grades. I was significantly more conservative growing up, and when liberal students tried to jump on people, the teachers intervened and kept things respectful. This is the ideal I'd like to keep.

I'll add that I don't oppose any legislation on reasonable restrictions. Like CRT is inappropriate for elementary school no matter what. I'm not going to read the full text of every state's law, but I think some are definitely going too broad and potentially shutting down valid discussion.

I did find the text of Idaho's bill and I can't find anything wrong with it. It's a short, 2 page bill and it manages to cover the worst interpretations of CRT without going overboard. I would not oppose if every state had something this direct.
Quote:
No public institution of higher education, school district, or public school, including a public charter school, shall direct or otherwise compel students to personally affirm, adopt, or adhere to any of the following tenets:
  • That any sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, or national origin is inherently superior or inferior;
  • That individuals should be adversely treated on the basis of their sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, or national origin;
  • That individuals, by virtue of sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, or national origin, are inherently responsible for actions committed in the past by other members of the same sex, race, ethnicity, religion, color, or national origin.
  • No distinction or classification of students shall be made on account of race or color.
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1:13p, 7/27/21
Quote:
I'll add that I don't oppose any legislation on reasonable restrictions. Like CRT is inappropriate for elementary school no matter what. I'm not going to read the full text of every state's law, but I think some are definitely going too broad and potentially shutting down valid discussion.
I believe that if you did read the new laws, you would find that they don't shut down valid discussion. Remember, Biden and his extremist handlers use the race card as a weapon to mislead the public about any new law that originates in Republican led states. Hyperbolic comments from this president seem much worse than those made by previous left of center presidents.
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caryking
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1:25p, 7/27/21
I'm still looking for clear Yes or No on whether we should teach the following:

For example, do you teach that homosexuality and transgenderism are "acceptable" lifestyles, or do you teach children that they are deviant lifestyles and wrong? Or do we have a debate with children about it, and teach them both views? Or what about with Creationism or Intelligent Design versus the theory of evolution and leaving God out of the equation?

Speak loudly Isle...
On the illegal or criminal immigrants…

“they built the country, the reason our economy is growing”

Joe Biden
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Civilized
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In reply to caryking • 3:47p, 7/27/21
pineknollshoresking said:
IseWolf22 said:
pineknollshoresking said:
GuerrillaPack said:
PackFansXL said:
IseWolf22 said:


Whenever a conservative person or idea is censored or de-platformed, the justification is, "We don't want to legitimize it. The debate is not worth having."

Virtually nothing should be banned from discussion. The marketplace of ideas includes bad ones. As the article points out we still learn about communism in school.

The emphasis in school should be on open discussion and critical examination of ideas in a thoughtful and non-adversarial way. But I see very few people arguing for this. It's mostly each side trying to impose their views and justifying it with whataboutism on the other side.
I agree with this in principle. Finding school leaders willing to approach things this way seems far less likely in our currently polarized environment.
It sounds good in principle to have an open debate on all issues. But it's just not how the world works. Could you see public schools, for instance, teaching both the flat earth & Biblical fundamentalist view of cosmology and the globe/heliocentric/Big_Bang view of cosmology? Or, in regards to the CRT, could you see public schools being totally open to a debate and teaching that "the U.S. is an evil white supremacist country", and also on the flip side teach that "white supremacy is a GOOD thing" and "let's debate the good aspects of white nationalism"? Or do they teach both the view that "homosexuality and transgenderism are acceptable lifestyles" and the opposite view that "homosexuality and transgenderism are deviant, sinful lifestyles and forms of mental illness"?

What actually ends up happening 99% of the time is that you choose one side of every important issue, and teach that view to the students. What really needs to happen is that you break the monopoly of the Marxist-controlled government public schools...and allow parents more choice in where their children go to school and what they are taught...instead of the current situation where they are forced (via taxation) to fund the government schools that are pushing a far Left Marxist/atheist/anti-Christian agenda.


Isle, please respond to GP on his examples

CRT you a not critical thinking and not based on fact! It's a diatribe that shouldn't be exposed to the masses unless people want to research outside of our education system.

Unfortunately, the education system is so full of people that love to bring up outlandish thoughts, ideas, and things that are far from truth! These people have taken root in our government, at all levels, and they are warping the minds of our youth (my bet is that you were warped as well).


I 100% support school choice and backpack funding.

Other than that I'm not going to wade into homosexuality being a "deviant lifestyle" or teaching something observably untrue (flat earthism). It's not going to be something we will ever agree on and will not be productive or a good use of time.

You missed the point... GP is arguing that: if one issue is taught as truth, when we know no evidence supports it as truth, then are you going to be comfortable with other issue being taught?

I'm not getting into whether I agree with GP's statements about the issues he brought up, Im just asking why shouldn't they be taught with the following mindset:

The emphasis in school should be on open discussion and critical examination of ideas in a thoughtful and non-adversarial way.

Because intellectually honest open discussion in public school should take place about non-settled secular academic topics. Gravitational theory shouldn't get lumped in with CRT just because they both have "theory" in the name.

We shouldn't be debating why an apple hits you in the head when it falls from a tree. Kids should learn foundational scientific principles as fact.

If you want your kid's school to teach creationism, intelligent design, or that LGBTQ kids are deviant you need to go find a private church school or college whose religious dogma aligns with your world view. Public school is an unrealistic and inappropriate forum for it.

CRT is appropriate debate for mature high school or college social studies/history/sociology/cultural anthropology. It's raw, and uncomfortable, and its veracity can and absolutely should be tested with rigorous debate.

That debate doesn't, or at least shouldn't, extend to younger kids that don't have the academic chops or maturity to process complex and sensitive topics.

Above all, kids should never be made to feel guilty or less-than because of their race, no matter their race.
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Civilized
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In reply to cowboypack02 • 3:55p, 7/27/21
cowboypack02 said:

Lets also not forget what the NEA says that they stand for:

  • Racial Justice: The systematic fair treatment of people of all races that results in equitable opportunities and outcomes for everyone.
  • Social Justice: A society in which the distribution of resources is equitable, all members are physically and psychologically safe and secure, and individuals are self-determining and interdependent

What gives you heartburn about these tenets when you're teaching kids?
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cowboypack02
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In reply to Civilized • 4:10p, 7/27/21
Civilized said:
cowboypack02 said:

Lets also not forget what the NEA says that they stand for:

  • Racial Justice: The systematic fair treatment of people of all races that results in equitable opportunities and outcomes for everyone.
  • Social Justice: A society in which the distribution of resources is equitable, all members are physically and psychologically safe and secure, and individuals are self-determining and interdependent

What gives you heartburn about these tenets when you're teaching kids?
Teachers shouldn't be teaching kids their opinions on either of these items....and that's what they are doing. Kids aren't getting an objective view from both sides, only the one that the teachers are giving them.

Then the parent gets stuck trying to deprogram all of the cramp that has been hammered into their kid about whiteness, and how black folks are discriminated against every day, and how BLM burning down cities is just protesting but when someone else does it they are terrorist.

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Civilized
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In reply to cowboypack02 • 4:43p, 7/27/21
cowboypack02 said:
Civilized said:
cowboypack02 said:

Lets also not forget what the NEA says that they stand for:

  • Racial Justice: The systematic fair treatment of people of all races that results in equitable opportunities and outcomes for everyone.
  • Social Justice: A society in which the distribution of resources is equitable, all members are physically and psychologically safe and secure, and individuals are self-determining and interdependent

What gives you heartburn about these tenets when you're teaching kids?
Teachers shouldn't be teaching kids their opinions on either of these items....and that's what they are doing. Kids aren't getting an objective view from both sides, only the one that the teachers are giving them.

Then the parent gets stuck trying to deprogram all of the cramp that has been hammered into their kid about whiteness, and how black folks are discriminated against every day, and how BLM burning down cities is just protesting but when someone else does it they are terrorist.


1. My wife's a longtime science and social studies public school teacher. I'm pretty sure these aren't prescribed talking points in classrooms as much as they are aspirational goals the NEA believes they and society need to work to achieve. They're part of the ethics that drive NEA, no difference than a corporate responsibility or mission statement.

2. Take the phrases "Racial Justice" and "Social Justice" away, since I know they're triggers. When you deconstruct these two, rather broad and innocuous NEA statements, what is even nominally objectionable about them?

Do we want to treat people of certain races unfairly? Do we strive for inequitable opportunities and outcomes?

Do we want impoverished, under-resourced public schools in some districts and rich, very well-resourced public schools in others?

Do we look to achieve physically and psychologically unhealthy environments for kids, that foster dependency and isolation?
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In reply to Civilized • 5:02p, 7/27/21
Civilized said:
cowboypack02 said:

Lets also not forget what the NEA says that they stand for:

  • Racial Justice: The systematic fair treatment of people of all races that results in equitable opportunities and outcomes for everyone.
  • Social Justice: A society in which the distribution of resources is equitable, all members are physically and psychologically safe and secure, and individuals are self-determining and interdependent

What gives you heartburn about these tenets when you're teaching kids?
"Equitable outcomes" is explicitly and blatantly a Marxist/socialist philosophy. And it is a dangerous and evil concept that results in violating the property rights of every individual and their right to enjoy the fruits of their labor. If you are mandating that every person and every racial group MUST have the same income, for example, you are talking about massive "wealth redistribution" (ie, stealing via taxation from those who have more property and income and giving it to those who have less). That's stealing, and it's evil. Of course, we are already on this path to socialism in America for many decades now, with all sorts of policies that facilitate this wealth redistribution.

And is it "fair treatment of people of all races" to advocate "affirmative action" policies that openly discriminate against white students? When I was in high school there were all sorts of scholarships that were available exclusively to black or other non-white students only. But none that were "white only". And it only gets worse once you get to college, and white students are openly discriminated against in the admissions process as well as scholarships and other opportunities.

Don't pretend that the buzz phrases "racial justice" and "social justice" are not far Left concepts. That is terminology that is referring to the "Critical Race Theory" ideology. It's all part of the same agenda...only those terms were being used before the terminology "critical race theory" became well known to the public over the last year or so. But "critical race theory" (under that name) has been festering in academia for many decades. When they talk about "racial justice" and "social justice", it involves demonizing white people for the alleged "sins" of the past, and advocating "affirmative action" and other measures to "remedy" those past "sins" and destroy their "white privilege", yada yada yada.

"Ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." - John 15:19
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Civilized
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In reply to GuerrillaPack • 5:14p, 7/27/21
GuerrillaPack said:
Civilized said:
cowboypack02 said:

Lets also not forget what the NEA says that they stand for:

  • Racial Justice: The systematic fair treatment of people of all races that results in equitable opportunities and outcomes for everyone.
  • Social Justice: A society in which the distribution of resources is equitable, all members are physically and psychologically safe and secure, and individuals are self-determining and interdependent

What gives you heartburn about these tenets when you're teaching kids?
"Equitable outcomes" is explicitly and blatantly a Marxist/socialist philosophy. And it is a dangerous and evil concept that results in violating the property rights of every individual and their right to enjoy the fruits of their labor. If you are mandating that every person and every racial group MUST have the same income, for example, you are talking about massive "wealth redistribution" (ie, stealing via taxation from those who have more property and income and giving it to those who have less). That's stealing, and it's evil. Of course, we are already on this path to socialism in America for many decades now, with all sorts of policies that facilitate this wealth redistribution.

And is it "fair treatment of people of all races" to advocate "affirmative action" policies that openly discriminate against white students? When I was in high school there were all sorts of scholarships that were available exclusively to black or other non-white students only. But none that were "white only". And it only gets worse once you get to college, and white students are openly discriminated against in the admissions process as well as scholarships and other opportunities.

Don't pretend that the buzz phrases "racial justice" and "social justice" are not far Left concepts. That is terminology that is referring to the "Critical Race Theory" ideology. It's essentially the exact same thing. It involves demonizing white people for the alleged "sins" of the past, and advocating "affirmative action" and other measures to "remedy" those past "sins" and destroy their "white privilege", yada yada yada.


Equitable opportunity and outcomes in education is far different than it is economically.

The NEA aren't shallow-cover communists.

Look at this through the lens of education.

Read up on the under-identification and under-representation of gifted and talented black and hispanic students as an example. These are students who don't need to be given anything. They've got the acumen and achievement to warrant identification but they fall through the cracks of a really large institutional system.
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cowboypack02
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In reply to Civilized • 5:24p, 7/27/21
Civilized said:
cowboypack02 said:
Civilized said:
cowboypack02 said:

Lets also not forget what the NEA says that they stand for:

  • Racial Justice: The systematic fair treatment of people of all races that results in equitable opportunities and outcomes for everyone.
  • Social Justice: A society in which the distribution of resources is equitable, all members are physically and psychologically safe and secure, and individuals are self-determining and interdependent

What gives you heartburn about these tenets when you're teaching kids?
Teachers shouldn't be teaching kids their opinions on either of these items....and that's what they are doing. Kids aren't getting an objective view from both sides, only the one that the teachers are giving them.

Then the parent gets stuck trying to deprogram all of the cramp that has been hammered into their kid about whiteness, and how black folks are discriminated against every day, and how BLM burning down cities is just protesting but when someone else does it they are terrorist.


1. My wife's a longtime science and social studies public school teacher. I'm pretty sure these aren't prescribed talking points in classrooms as much as they are aspirational goals the NEA believes they and society need to work to achieve. They're part of the ethics that drive NEA, no difference than a corporate responsibility or mission statement.

2. Take the phrases "Racial Justice" and "Social Justice" away, since I know they're triggers. When you deconstruct these two, rather broad and innocuous NEA statements, what is even nominally objectionable about them?

Do we want to treat people of certain races unfairly? Do we strive for inequitable opportunities and outcomes?

Do we want impoverished, under-resourced public schools in some districts and rich, very well-resourced public schools in others?

Do we look to achieve physically and psychologically unhealthy environments for kids, that foster dependency and isolation?

1. My father-in-law is an english teacher in high school. He is quite proud of the fact that he discusses these things with students and doesn't miss the chance to tell me either.

2. You can play word games with those two topics. But the NEA is quite clear that those topics are being discussed within the premise of "Justice for Black Lives Demands". I take their meaning from the NEA's own webpage. I suggest you take a few moments to read it.

3. Do you treat people of certain races unfairly? Was that in your upbringing? I certainly don't. I am also a realist in the fact that life isn't equitable, and it never will be. It has nothing to do with racism. That's just life. Almost has the opportunity to end up on third base, but sometimes people have to work harder than others to get there....and sometimes you don't get to play at all....but that doesn't have anything to do with your race. Life just ain't fair...and it ever won't be

4. I went to a small school in a country where 22% of the population is in poverty. The school leaked and flooded when it rained, had too many kids per teach, and quite frankly I was the minority as a white person and was treated differently. At 38 kids I graduated with became lawyers, authors, CEOs of businesses, teachers, entrepreneurs, bankers, and one fellow who has been very successful in a historically black university. I can actually name someone that i went to school with who does each of those things. I have found that the parents have much more to do with it then the school.

5. Of course we don't want physically and psychologically unhealthy environments for kids. Since we are talking about types of teachers all i'll say here is that i don't see teachers discussing conservative ideals with kids and telling the same kids not to tell their parents that, i don't see conservative teachers pushing kids to believe a certain way. I do see liberal teachers doing it. I posted several articles discussing that above and I can keep posting them all day long. The point is that those types of things only seem to go one way.

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BBW12OG
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In reply to Civilized • 5:25p, 7/27/21
Civilized said:
GuerrillaPack said:
Civilized said:
cowboypack02 said:

Lets also not forget what the NEA says that they stand for:

  • Racial Justice: The systematic fair treatment of people of all races that results in equitable opportunities and outcomes for everyone.
  • Social Justice: A society in which the distribution of resources is equitable, all members are physically and psychologically safe and secure, and individuals are self-determining and interdependent

What gives you heartburn about these tenets when you're teaching kids?
"Equitable outcomes" is explicitly and blatantly a Marxist/socialist philosophy. And it is a dangerous and evil concept that results in violating the property rights of every individual and their right to enjoy the fruits of their labor. If you are mandating that every person and every racial group MUST have the same income, for example, you are talking about massive "wealth redistribution" (ie, stealing via taxation from those who have more property and income and giving it to those who have less). That's stealing, and it's evil. Of course, we are already on this path to socialism in America for many decades now, with all sorts of policies that facilitate this wealth redistribution.

And is it "fair treatment of people of all races" to advocate "affirmative action" policies that openly discriminate against white students? When I was in high school there were all sorts of scholarships that were available exclusively to black or other non-white students only. But none that were "white only". And it only gets worse once you get to college, and white students are openly discriminated against in the admissions process as well as scholarships and other opportunities.

Don't pretend that the buzz phrases "racial justice" and "social justice" are not far Left concepts. That is terminology that is referring to the "Critical Race Theory" ideology. It's essentially the exact same thing. It involves demonizing white people for the alleged "sins" of the past, and advocating "affirmative action" and other measures to "remedy" those past "sins" and destroy their "white privilege", yada yada yada.


Equitable opportunity and outcomes in education is far different than it is economically.

The NEA aren't shallow-cover communists.

Look at this through the lens of education.

Read up on the under-identification and under-representation of gifted and talented black and hispanic students as an example. These are students who don't need to be given anything. They've got the acumen and achievement to warrant identification but they fall through the cracks of a really large institutional system.
Congratulations Civ... I will no longer call you a SOCIALIST/MARXIST...

That last post you made just put you as a MARXIST/COMMUNIST.....

Who is doing the "under-indentification?" Isn't that the job of the LEA or the teachers? Please... do share with us that. The first line of identifying children, whether it is gifted and talented, special needs, abused, neglected, etc... has always been the teachers that interact with them daily.

Damn dude.... why do you make this so freaking easy. Did you think I was banned again and wouldn't call you out for your BS????

Be careful how you respond to the next few questions. Your wife is an educator you say. So was my mom before she went to the county office. I also have an aunt, two cousins and two other cousins' spouses who are educators in North Carolina and trust me... everything you just said reads directly out of the the NEA, NCAE and LEA pamphlets. FACT... once again you picked the wrong topic to come of as a pompous know it all...

Why don't you share with the crowd the handouts, emails etc... that tell your wife who she should vote for. Also include the ideologies they are supporting, not supporting, the talking points to share with parents when they question agendas. I'd love for you to own up to that.

I'll sit back and watch you flop like a fish on a pier.... AGAIN... Nice try there comrade. Once again... FAIL.
Big Bad Wolf. OG...2002

"The Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson
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In reply to Civilized • 5:26p, 7/27/21
Civilized said:




Equitable opportunity and outcomes in education is far different than it is economically.

The NEA aren't shallow-cover communists.

Look at this through the lens of education.

Read up on the under-identification and under-representation of gifted and talented black and hispanic students as an example. These are students who don't need to be given anything. They've got the acumen and achievement to warrant identification but they fall through the cracks of a really large institutional system.
If you don't have equitable outcomes in performance in education between racial groups, that is NOT the result of racial discrimination. There are all sorts of factors going on, including the *scientific* fact that there are huge differences in IQ between different racial groups.

And the NEA was, in fact, founded by and has been led for decades by ideological Marxists. I actually researched the history of the founding of American public education and the NEA years ago when I was in college. The American public education system was founded by dedicated socialists, including men like Horace Mann and John Dewey (a staunch "humanist" and signer of the "Humanist Manifesto") who were "secular humanists" and Marxists.

Articles on the Marxist roots of the NEA and American public school system:

https://www.crossroad.to/heaven/Excerpts/chronologies/nea.htm

https://blottingoutgod.com/2013/02/21/the-nea-agenda-how-john-deweysocialism-influenced-public-education/
"Ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." - John 15:19
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In reply to Civilized • 5:30p, 7/27/21
Civilized said:
GuerrillaPack said:
Civilized said:
cowboypack02 said:

Lets also not forget what the NEA says that they stand for:

  • Racial Justice: The systematic fair treatment of people of all races that results in equitable opportunities and outcomes for everyone.
  • Social Justice: A society in which the distribution of resources is equitable, all members are physically and psychologically safe and secure, and individuals are self-determining and interdependent

What gives you heartburn about these tenets when you're teaching kids?
"Equitable outcomes" is explicitly and blatantly a Marxist/socialist philosophy. And it is a dangerous and evil concept that results in violating the property rights of every individual and their right to enjoy the fruits of their labor. If you are mandating that every person and every racial group MUST have the same income, for example, you are talking about massive "wealth redistribution" (ie, stealing via taxation from those who have more property and income and giving it to those who have less). That's stealing, and it's evil. Of course, we are already on this path to socialism in America for many decades now, with all sorts of policies that facilitate this wealth redistribution.

And is it "fair treatment of people of all races" to advocate "affirmative action" policies that openly discriminate against white students? When I was in high school there were all sorts of scholarships that were available exclusively to black or other non-white students only. But none that were "white only". And it only gets worse once you get to college, and white students are openly discriminated against in the admissions process as well as scholarships and other opportunities.

Don't pretend that the buzz phrases "racial justice" and "social justice" are not far Left concepts. That is terminology that is referring to the "Critical Race Theory" ideology. It's essentially the exact same thing. It involves demonizing white people for the alleged "sins" of the past, and advocating "affirmative action" and other measures to "remedy" those past "sins" and destroy their "white privilege", yada yada yada.


Equitable opportunity and outcomes in education is far different than it is economically.

The NEA aren't shallow-cover communists.

Look at this through the lens of education.

Read up on the under-identification and under-representation of gifted and talented black and hispanic students as an example. These are students who don't need to be given anything. They've got the acumen and achievement to warrant identification but they fall through the cracks of a really large institutional system.
Life isn't equitable, and it never will be....sorry man.

The NEA is very clear on what they support...its on their webpage. They are very much supporters of BLM and the founders of BLM have made it very clear that they support Marxism. Its worth mentioning here that 60% of the teachers in NC support the NEA and the NEA supports a Marxist organization.

Maybe teachers should be looking through the lens of just educating students and not pushing their belief systems onto those students

This statement is the perfect argument for school choice. Let the parents send their kids somewhere that they don't call through the cracks of a really large institutional system. Its also worth saying that this isn't just a minority problem...kids of all races have this issue. People just focus on that because they have the racist belief that white people can't fall through the cracks like everyone else
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In reply to cowboypack02 • 5:37p, 7/27/21
Quote:
"The NEA is very clear on what they support...its on their webpage. They are very much supporters of BLM and the founders of BLM have made it very clear that they support Marxism. Its worth mentioning here that 60% of the teachers in NC support the NEA and the NEA supports a Marxist organization.

Maybe teachers should be looking through the lens of just educating students and not pushing their belief systems onto those students"
Well... I respectfully disagree with the bolded part of your quote. Do not get this twisted... they don't want to "educate students"..... They want to continue to INDOCTRINATE the students.

That's all it is. They know if they can start them young and get them to goose step in line they will be able to hold at least 30% of them for life. Hopefully the remainder will have enough sense, good parents or not give a damn enough to follow in line with the useless babble that many "educators" spout off.

Now don't get me wrong. A majority of teachers work for pennies, often spend their own money for supplies, contribute positively to society. And God love them and protect them for it.

But.... if you don't think there are useless teachers that do nothing but sit on their asses and surf the internet all day while spouting off the NEA, NCAE and LEA talking points while injecting their political opinions into the few lessons or topics they decide to discuss when they are bored looking at Facebook then you are a hell of a lot worse off than you constantly appear to be.
Big Bad Wolf. OG...2002

"The Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
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In reply to cowboypack02 • 5:38p, 7/27/21
cowboypack02 said:




The NEA is very clear on what they support...its on their webpage. They are very much supporters of BLM and the founders of BLM have made it very clear that they support Marxism. Its worth mentioning here that 60% of the teachers in NC support the NEA and the NEA supports a Marxist organization.

The evidence for the Marxist origins/roots are overwhelming. The NEA and American public school system were founded by men like Horace Mann and John Dewey, who were self-avowed secular "humanists", socialists, and Marxists. Then you just look at the website of the NEA and their own stated goals and philosophy, and they are using all sorts of Marxist language and concepts, such as "equitable outcomes". Then you look at the fact that they support BLM, which as you rightfully stated, is an organization that is rooted in Marxism, with one of the co-founders of BLM admitting (audio/video recorded) that the founders of BLM are "Marxist-trained" (when asked about the guiding philosophy of BLM).

It's that way with EVERYTHING about modern Leftist political parties and movements. They are all ideologically rooted in Marxism. Sometimes you just have to do a little investigation and digging to discover it. But often it's pretty obvious, and now it's becoming admitted more and more, as they are getting more confident and bold as they gain power in society.
"Ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." - John 15:19
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8:47p, 7/27/21
Damn!! I truly thought it would be fun for a get-together and meet everyone. Civ's last few post makes me think... yea, I'll pass...
On the illegal or criminal immigrants…

“they built the country, the reason our economy is growing”

Joe Biden
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In reply to caryking • 9:56p, 7/27/21
pineknollshoresking said:
Damn!! I truly thought it would be fun for a get-together and meet everyone. Civ's last few post makes me think... yea, I'll pass...


I'd love to sit around a table over a steak and root beer and argue politics with all of you for an evening
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In reply to cowboypack02 • 11:13a, 7/28/21
cowboypack02 said:
pineknollshoresking said:
Damn!! I truly thought it would be fun for a get-together and meet everyone. Civ's last few post makes me think... yea, I'll pass...


I'd love to sit around a table over a steak and root beer and argue politics with all of you for an evening


Let's do it! Well, can we leave Civ out?
On the illegal or criminal immigrants…

“they built the country, the reason our economy is growing”

Joe Biden
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In reply to caryking • 11:29a, 7/28/21
pineknollshoresking said:
cowboypack02 said:
pineknollshoresking said:
Damn!! I truly thought it would be fun for a get-together and meet everyone. Civ's last few post makes me think... yea, I'll pass...


I'd love to sit around a table over a steak and root beer and argue politics with all of you for an evening


Let's do it! Well, can we leave Civ out?
Nah..having Civ there sitting across from BBW would be the highlight of dinner. Those two going back and forth would give me a break from talking and give me a chance to eat.
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In reply to cowboypack02 • 12:07p, 7/28/21
cowboypack02 said:
pineknollshoresking said:
cowboypack02 said:
pineknollshoresking said:
Damn!! I truly thought it would be fun for a get-together and meet everyone. Civ's last few post makes me think... yea, I'll pass...


I'd love to sit around a table over a steak and root beer and argue politics with all of you for an evening


Let's do it! Well, can we leave Civ out?
Nah..having Civ there sitting across from BBW would be the highlight of dinner. Those two going back and forth would give me a break from talking and give me a chance to eat.

LOLOLOL
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In reply to Civilized • 12:21p, 7/28/21
Civilized said:
cowboypack02 said:
pineknollshoresking said:
cowboypack02 said:
pineknollshoresking said:
Damn!! I truly thought it would be fun for a get-together and meet everyone. Civ's last few post makes me think... yea, I'll pass...


I'd love to sit around a table over a steak and root beer and argue politics with all of you for an evening


Let's do it! Well, can we leave Civ out?
Nah..having Civ there sitting across from BBW would be the highlight of dinner. Those two going back and forth would give me a break from talking and give me a chance to eat.

LOLOLOL
Civ, much to our chagrin, we think the world of you...
On the illegal or criminal immigrants…

“they built the country, the reason our economy is growing”

Joe Biden
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In reply to PackFansXL • 1:04p, 7/29/21
PackFansXL said:
Quote:
I'll add that I don't oppose any legislation on reasonable restrictions. Like CRT is inappropriate for elementary school no matter what. I'm not going to read the full text of every state's law, but I think some are definitely going too broad and potentially shutting down valid discussion.
I believe that if you did read the new laws, you would find that they don't shut down valid discussion. Remember, Biden and his extremist handlers use the race card as a weapon to mislead the public about any new law that originates in Republican led states. Hyperbolic comments from this president seem much worse than those made by previous left of center presidents.
Eh, I've seen several that have more fluffy language about not allowing students to "feel bad" about their race based on teachings. I think we can all agree that people, especially young people, can get their feelings hurt over perceived slights that aren't even there.

You could argue that learning about Jim Crow would make you feel bad. This type of stuff will inevitably end up in litigation. What I like about the Idaho law is it's very direct and clear without wiggle room.
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1:49p, 7/29/21
Minding the Campus Link

Quote:
Reuters denied that critical race theory teaches that "discriminating against white people is the only way to achieve equality," saying that was a "misconception" promoted by "conservative media outlets."

It's not a misconception. It's the explicit position of the most famous exponent of critical race theory, Boston University's Ibram X. Kendi. The "key concept" in Kendi's book How to Be an Antiracist is that discrimination against whites is the only way to achieve equality: "The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination. The only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination," writes Kendi in that book, a New York Times bestseller touted by many progressive journalists.
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12:50a, 7/31/21
This is what I said earlier in this thread...CRT essentially teaches that "The United States was founded as a nation to perpetuate white supremacy". And therefore, the Marxist Left will argue that the Bill of Rights and our other foundational principles should be overturned and discarded.



The ACLU, by the way, is a communist organization. Look up the history of its founders. Their true goal is not the protection of our rights. They mainly only "support free speech" when it involves pushing for publishing pornography. The vast majority of their activity is to advance the Leftist agenda.
"Ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." - John 15:19
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12:36p, 8/18/21
https://www.jamesgmartin.center/2021/08/the-fight-over-critical-race-theory-in-education-a-fight-for-our-national-survival/

Quote:
In today's Martin Center article, law professor William Jacobson of Cornell explains why the fight against CRT is a fight for national survival. He writes, "The ideology of critical race theory puts, at its core, in its center, that race is the most important thing in a student's life. That skin color is the most important thing in how their life is going to develop. It's an extremely pernicious ideology. If you wanted to think of a way to tear this country apart, it's hard to think of a way better than what they are doing."

But CRT isn't just about race. It smuggles in an attack on capitalism, telling listeners that we must adopt socialism which (contrary to all evidence) is fair and just.
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In reply to caryking • 9:02a, 8/19/21
caryking said:
I'm not ready to defund the public school system; however, I am 100% ready to defund the US Dept of Education. Get the Federal Government out of the "one size fits all" education system!

Then, I would work to defund the NC Dept of Education. Each county can create their own policies and curricula. If a city want to divorce itself from the county, then they should be able to do so...
You nailed it, the Fed DOE directly violates the 10th Amendment, and does a lot of additional harm in the process.
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10:21a, 8/25/21
Asian Americans Disprove CRT

Quote:
Xu writes, "Along nearly every measurable life outcome, Asian Americans outperform whites. Asian Americans have the highest per capita income, lowest per capita crime rates, and highest rates of postsecondary achievement. Despite making up only 6 percent of the U.S. population, Asian Americans account for a whopping 60 percent of top scores on the SAT. Whites, despite making up more than half of the country's population, only account for 33 percent. America is infected by a peculiar strain of white supremacy indeed if it allows for Asian Americans to beat whites on so many different metrics."
Quote:
Xu continues, "No one denies the fact of slavery, discrimination, or racism; Asians have endured plenty of their own in this country. But they also committed to believing in the highest ideals that our country was founded upon, including the idea that anyone could apply themselves and improve their lot in life. They chose to raise their children to value hard work, study diligently, and commit to excellence. Because of that choice, Asian Americans now outperform everyone, including whites, in a nation that is allegedly based upon white domination."
This is a choice parents of any race can make and their children will be better off if they oblige Mom and Dad. We need the Progressives to stop trying to take advantage of Black folks, stop belittling them, and stop misinterpreting failures as solely the responsibility of White folks. Progressives are the real racists and they are doing far more harm than good.
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11:51a, 8/25/21
Which one of you lefties is this? I have my theories!!



Big Bad Wolf. OG...2002

"The Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
- Thomas Jefferson
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