statefan91 said:

---

This thread was literally started with the intent of talking about mass shootings. Feel free to start a thread on general gun violence if you would like, I fully support you in doing so.

---

And I have talked about mass shootings as well as the fact that the thread went the way of controlling fun violence. I don't need to start a thread on general fun violence. Just because something has a name and something else doesn't, doesn't mean it's not a mass shooting or in this case, mass killing incident.

Gun violence manifests in several ways and all have distinct causes. The major overlap is just that they were committed with guns.

1. Murder - Individuals (domestic/grudges)
2. Organized Crime - Gangs, drugs, etc
3. Suicide
4. Mass shootings - Crazy/disturbed
5. Mass shooting - Ideological (white supremacists/ jihadist/other)

It doesn't make a lot of sense to talk about them all as a single issue unless you are someone who is proposing a gun confiscation/buyback program.

Here are a few, very simple solutions that we as a society should all get behind.

1. Value Life- all lives are important, worth living, and worth preserving.

2. Value Family- I was once told "If America is a wall, the family units are the brick and the government is just the mortar". Families bear some responsibility in looking after the mental well-being of each other

3. Believe in a High Power- It could be Jesus, the Force, or the Boogieman but at some level society needs to realize that there is a bigger picture and that help does exist for those with spiritual and mental wounds.

ZAXPACK15 said:

---

Here are a few, very simple solutions that we as a society should all get behind.

1. Value Life- all lives are important, worth living, and worth preserving.

2. Value Family- I was once told "If America is a wall, the family units are the brick and the government is just the mortar". Families bear some responsibility in looking after the mental well-being of each other

3. Believe in a High Power- It could be Jesus, the Force, or the Boogieman but at some level society needs to realize that there is a bigger picture and that help does exist for those with spiritual and mental wounds.

---

Agree with 1 and 2. I'm Christian but I don't believe belief in a higher power is something that prevents others from committing atrocities. In fact, many atrocities are committed in the name of a higher power.

JocoPack said:

---

PackBacker07 said:

---

82TxPackFan said:

---

The issue in this country is not limited to mass shootings. 7 killed & 48 wounded in Chicago this past weekend and it hardly raises a ripple on the news programs.

---

To me, the gun violence emergency in this country is three-pronged (shout-out to TOB):

1) mass shootings
2) suicide
3) general homicide, as you reference above

Trying to find a single fits-all solution is very difficult. But why can't we even try something? Hell, even start a national conversation. It's beyond infuriating.

---

Devil's advocate here, do you have any recommendations on what we could do?

---

Not off the top of my head that could fit all, but I have some ideas about guns in general. And none IMO that would infringe on anyone's 2A. But should lawmakers, the ones we pay to think about this, just tweet thoughts and prayers, then go back to doing nothing? And save their tweet for the next week when another mass shooting happens? Every other emergency in the nation gets some Congressional thought, but not this one. It's madness.

This is the correct response. Not guns.

An interesting and encouraging note to add to this conversation;

Total murders committed with a gun:

2017 - 10,982 - 3.38 per 100,000 people
1994 - 16,136 - 6.2 per 100,000 people

Travis84 said:

---

There are several wounds that are festering;

Political discourse
Social media culture
Over-medication of teens
Desensitization of violence and murder
Dissolution of the family unit
Growing victim mentality

---

What do we do about them? And if all these things are going on and leading these people to paths of violence, is easy access to firearms a good thing?

Random article showing how Vox misrepresented some data regarding guns and videogames. I'm only posting this as an example of how easy it is to show gun related data in a myriad of ways.

https://reason.com/2019/08/07/vox-misses-the-mark-on-video-games-and-gun-deaths/

statefan91 said:

---

Travis84 said:

---

There are several wounds that are festering;

Political discourse
Social media culture
Over-medication of teens
Desensitization of violence and murder
Dissolution of the family unit
Growing victim mentality

---

What do we do about them? And if all these things are going on and leading these people to paths of violence, is easy access to firearms a good thing?

---

Legal access to guns is not the problem. The majority of crimes committed with guns are committed by people who are possess them illegally. There are something like 300 million guns in the US. That cat is out of the bag. New laws only impact the law-abiding.

Travis84 said:

---

statefan91 said:

---

Travis84 said:

---

There are several wounds that are festering;

Political discourse
Social media culture
Over-medication of teens
Desensitization of violence and murder
Dissolution of the family unit
Growing victim mentality

---

What do we do about them? And if all these things are going on and leading these people to paths of violence, is easy access to firearms a good thing?

---

Legal access to guns is not the problem. The majority of crimes committed with guns are committed by people who are possess them illegally. There are something like 300 million guns in the US. That cat is out of the bag. New laws only impact the law-abiding.

---

+1

Where did you find the statistic regarding the majority of gun crimes being perpetrated by people who got them illegally? I don't doubt it I'm just asking.

Regarding mass shootings, I did a google search and found consistent summaries across a couple different newspapers, though some of the data varies:

FBI: (Pg. 7) A majority of active shooters obtained their firearms legally, with only very small percentages obtaining them illegally
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/pre-attack-behaviors-of-active-shooters-in-us-2000-2013.pdf/view

Also from the FBI: The FBI could only verify that 25% of active shooters in the study had ever been diagnosed with mental illness. Of those diagnosed, only three had been diagnosed with a psychotic disorder.

WaPo: Shooters often carried more than one weapon; one was found with 24. At least 178 of mass shooters' weapons were obtained legally and 59 were obtained illegally. It's unclear how 79weapons were acquired.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/mass-shootings-in-america/

KUNC: https://www.kunc.org/post/1982-74-percent-mass-shooters-obtained-their-guns-legally

NYT: recently studied 19 mass shootings and found that in the vast majority (more than 75%) of instances the firearms used were bought legally with a federal background check. This group does not include the Tree of Life Synagogue shooting in Pittsburgh, but the ATF concluded the alleged perpetrator of that shooting legally purchased the 10 guns he owned, including those allegedly used in the shooting.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/03/us/how-mass-shooters-got-their-guns.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/27/new-evidence-confirms-what-gun-rights-advocates-have-been-saying-for-a-long-time-about-crime/

Any thoughts on the post above regarding the majority of mass shootings being done with lawfully purchased weapons?

Regarding your article about the 893 gun related crimes in Pittsburgh from 2008; I think this is a really good insight into the carelessness that many gun owners have with their guns.

• More than 30 percent of the guns that ended up at crime scenes had been stolen, according to Fabio's research. But more than 40 percent of those stolen guns weren't reported by the owners as stolen until after police contacted them when the gun was used in a crime.
  
  One of the more concerning findings in the study was that for the majority of guns recovered (62 percent), "the place where the owner lost possession of the firearm was unknown."

The fact that people would not contact the police after their gun was stolen, or have so many guns that they don't even realize one is missing, is shameful. You should absolutely be able to own a gun, I have no problem with that, but you should be signing up for a significant responsibility when doing so and be held responsible for the safe possession of your gun. Getting your gun stolen and not reporting it or leaving your gun laying around for your toddler to shoot themselves with should be harshly punished if you're going to take on the responsibility of buying a gun.

MASS STABBING in California. Man kills 4 and injures 2 with knife.

RunsWithWolves26 said:

---

MASS STABBING in California. Man kills 4 and injures 2 with knife.

---

Wake me up when this analogy gets closer...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/07/us/el-paso-crusius-gun-warning/index.html

El Paso shooter legally owned the gun, despite concerns voiced by mother to Police in advance of shooting.

I listened to this on part of morning walk today

The Profiler: Mary Ellen O'Toole

Major sits down with former FBI criminal profiler Dr. Mary Ellen O'Toole to discuss the horrific shootings in Dayton and El Paso, what drives someone to commit mass murder, and the fallacy of widely-held beliefs about mental illness and violent video games. Join us for Irish coffee and tea at The Auld Shebeen in Fairfax, VA.


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/political-podcast-the-takeout/

I don't think the left and its leaders want to take away all your guns. If you look at the bill that passed Congress back in February, here is a summary of it:

• This bill establishes new background check requirements for firearm transfers between private parties (i.e., unlicensed individuals).
• Specifically, it prohibits a firearm transfer between private parties unless a licensed gun dealer, manufacturer, or importer first takes possession of the firearm to conduct a background check.
• The prohibition does not apply to certain firearm transfers, such as a gift between spouses in good faith.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/8

I don't know what the answer is, as I think I've stated many times before. Here are my uninformed things that I think make logical sense:

- Federal background checks mandated on any and all gun sales, no matter what
- Federal standards on gun permitting. State to State reciprocity is a worthless if you can buy in State's that have little to no standards of permitting or requirements. NC recognizes gun purchases from other States as long as they followed the law of that State, no matter how lax the process is of attaining the gun
- Gun storage requirements; I'm tired of seeing stories about 3 year olds finding a gun and shooting themselves or siblings. That is an insane burden for a child to carry the rest of their lives because of a parent's negligence
- Responsibility of gun owners to know of location of their guns at all times and requirement to report lost or stolen guns immediately - I previously linked to an FBI report where many gun owners don't know how many guns they have or if one has gone missing

You should absolutely be able to have a gun as afforded by the 2nd amendment. It should come with a great burden of responsibility though and harsh penalties for negligence of your responsibility.

If it is a mental health issue as many people claim, let's do our damned best to keep them out of the hands of those with those issues.

Anyone against the suggestions above? Polling across the US (Fox News, other outlets) seems to point to the majority of the public wanting stricter licensing / background checks. It's sad that literally one person can decide to not take up the issue in the Senate and not attempt to fix anything.

statefan91 said:

---

Anyone against the suggestions above? Polling across the US (Fox News, other outlets) seems to point to the majority of the public wanting stricter licensing / background checks. It's sad that literally one person can decide to not take up the issue in the Senate and not attempt to fix anything.

---

This article is approximately where I stand.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/08/21/nra-lobbyist-roadmap-gun-reform-227634

Background checks between family don't make sense, but every other instance is fine.

I'm not sure how you make storage requirements enforceable. The only way it's get caught is if a police enters your home or someone is shot in the house. How do you know if it was out temporarily for cleaning? And quality storage that keeps the gunquickly accessible for home defense is expensive.

I support gun owners needing to report missing firearms, but again, super hard to enforce. They may not know it was stolen if it isn't regularly used. We should require guns purchased by sellers to be run through the NCIC database as right now a buyer can't know it's stolen at purchase.

statefan91 said:

---

Anyone against the suggestions above? Polling across the US (Fox News, other outlets) seems to point to the majority of the public wanting stricter licensing / background checks. It's sad that literally one person can decide to not take up the issue in the Senate and not attempt to fix anything.

---

Yes. I am absolutely opposed to all of it. I am opposed to ALL "gun control". Under the 2nd Amendment, we have the God-given right to own and to CARRY firearms on our person. When you have a right, you do not need any form of permission or license in order to exercise that right. As I explained in a previous post in this thread, the concept of background checks is a violation of the 2nd Amendment. No person should be denied their 2nd Amendment right, even if they are a convicted felon. If they have been released from prison, then they have paid their debt to society and are supposedly no longer a threat to society. Convicted felons have just a much of a right to self defense as anyone else.

GuerrillaPack said:

---

statefan91 said:

---

Anyone against the suggestions above? Polling across the US (Fox News, other outlets) seems to point to the majority of the public wanting stricter licensing / background checks. It's sad that literally one person can decide to not take up the issue in the Senate and not attempt to fix anything.

---

Under the 2nd Amendment, we have the God-given right to own and to CARRY firearms on our person.

---

God did not author the Constitution and/or Bill of Rights. Nor did I ever read about God granting US citizens this right in the Bible. Just FYI.

Carry on.

GuerrillaPack said:

---

statefan91 said:

---

Anyone against the suggestions above? Polling across the US (Fox News, other outlets) seems to point to the majority of the public wanting stricter licensing / background checks. It's sad that literally one person can decide to not take up the issue in the Senate and not attempt to fix anything.

---

Yes. I am absolutely opposed to all of it. I am opposed to ALL "gun control". Under the 2nd Amendment, we have the God-given right to own and to CARRY firearms on our person. When you have a right, you do not need any form of permission or license in order to exercise that right. As I explained in a previous post in this thread, the concept of background checks is a violation of the 2nd Amendment. No person should be denied their 2nd Amendment right, even if they are a convicted felon. If they have been released from prison, then they have paid their debt to society and are supposedly no longer a threat to society. Convicted felons have just a much of a right to self defense as anyone else.

---

God doesn't care about your guns man.

PackBacker07 said:

---

GuerrillaPack said:

---

statefan91 said:

---

Anyone against the suggestions above? Polling across the US (Fox News, other outlets) seems to point to the majority of the public wanting stricter licensing / background checks. It's sad that literally one person can decide to not take up the issue in the Senate and not attempt to fix anything.

---

Under the 2nd Amendment, we have the God-given right to own and to CARRY firearms on our person.

---

God did not author the Constitution and/or Bill of Rights. Nor did I ever read about God granting US citizens this right in the Bible. Just FYI.

Carry on.

---

The Founding Fathers stated in the Declaration of Independence that we were "endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights".

Then, the text of the 2nd Amendment states that we have the right to keep and bear arms -- meaning that it is one of those rights they were referring to in the Declaration of Independence.

It is common sense that our rights must come from a "Higher Power". The concept of a "right" is something that we all can do, which no man/government can take away.

Looking at it from a philosophical respect, the concept here is that every person inherently has the right to defend themselves. And God absolutely makes that clear, as recorded in the Bible.

Did you know that Jesus instructed his disciples to arm themselves with swords?

Luke 22:36 - "But now," he said, "take your money and a traveler's bag. And if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one!"

metcalfmafia said:

---

GuerrillaPack said:

---

statefan91 said:

---

Anyone against the suggestions above? Polling across the US (Fox News, other outlets) seems to point to the majority of the public wanting stricter licensing / background checks. It's sad that literally one person can decide to not take up the issue in the Senate and not attempt to fix anything.

---

Yes. I am absolutely opposed to all of it. I am opposed to ALL "gun control". Under the 2nd Amendment, we have the God-given right to own and to CARRY firearms on our person. When you have a right, you do not need any form of permission or license in order to exercise that right. As I explained in a previous post in this thread, the concept of background checks is a violation of the 2nd Amendment. No person should be denied their 2nd Amendment right, even if they are a convicted felon. If they have been released from prison, then they have paid their debt to society and are supposedly no longer a threat to society. Convicted felons have just a much of a right to self defense as anyone else.

---

God doesn't care about your guns man.

---

Riiiiight. God "doesn't care" that his children have the right and ability to defend themselves against common criminals. Or a tyrannical government.

And he probably doesn't care about millions of unborn children being murdered (abortion), either...right? I bet he "doesn't care" about homosexuality either. He probably approves of drag queen story time for the children, right?

Since God doesn't care about any of this, I presume I should just vote for the Democrats, so they can fully destroy this country and turn it into a godless 3rd world totalitarian communist cesspit.

IseWolf22 said:

---

statefan91 said:

---

Anyone against the suggestions above? Polling across the US (Fox News, other outlets) seems to point to the majority of the public wanting stricter licensing / background checks. It's sad that literally one person can decide to not take up the issue in the Senate and not attempt to fix anything.

---

This article is approximately where I stand.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/08/21/nra-lobbyist-roadmap-gun-reform-227634

Background checks between family don't make sense, but every other instance is fine.

I'm not sure how you make storage requirements enforceable. The only way it's get caught is if a police enters your home or someone is shot in the house. How do you know if it was out temporarily for cleaning? And quality storage that keeps the gunquickly accessible for home defense is expensive.

I support gun owners needing to report missing firearms, but again, super hard to enforce. They may not know it was stolen if it isn't regularly used. We should require guns purchased by sellers to be run through the NCIC database as right now a buyer can't know it's stolen at purchase.

---

Regarding storage and reporting of it being stolen; I feel like if you're signing up for the responsibility of owning a gun you're signing up to ensure it doesn't harm someone else. Accidents happen, but negligence of safe storage that causes harm or death should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I'm sorry but if you have a gun in your home and your small child finds it and shoots him/herself, you should absolutely go to jail.

Same with not knowing your gun is stolen. If you are signing up for the responsibility of owning a gun you should be able to keep track of its location. If you don't report it stolen and it's used in the commission of a crime you should be charged for your negligence.

As mentioned, I'm fine with people having guns. But I think it should come with a ****load of responsibility and punished accordingly.

statefan91 said:

---

IseWolf22 said:

---

statefan91 said:

---

Anyone against the suggestions above? Polling across the US (Fox News, other outlets) seems to point to the majority of the public wanting stricter licensing / background checks. It's sad that literally one person can decide to not take up the issue in the Senate and not attempt to fix anything.

---

This article is approximately where I stand.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/08/21/nra-lobbyist-roadmap-gun-reform-227634

Background checks between family don't make sense, but every other instance is fine.

I'm not sure how you make storage requirements enforceable. The only way it's get caught is if a police enters your home or someone is shot in the house. How do you know if it was out temporarily for cleaning? And quality storage that keeps the gunquickly accessible for home defense is expensive.

I support gun owners needing to report missing firearms, but again, super hard to enforce. They may not know it was stolen if it isn't regularly used. We should require guns purchased by sellers to be run through the NCIC database as right now a buyer can't know it's stolen at purchase.

---

Regarding storage and reporting of it being stolen; I feel like if you're signing up for the responsibility of owning a gun you're signing up to ensure it doesn't harm someone else. Accidents happen, but negligence of safe storage that causes harm or death should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I'm sorry but if you have a gun in your home and your small child finds it and shoots him/herself, you should absolutely go to jail.

Same with not knowing your gun is stolen. If you are signing up for the responsibility of owning a gun you should be able to keep track of its location. If you don't report it stolen and it's used in the commission of a crime you should be charged for your negligence.

As mentioned, I'm fine with people having guns. But I think it should come with a ****load of responsibility and punished accordingly.

---

This.

statefan91 said:

---

Regarding storage and reporting of it being stolen; I feel like if you're signing up for the responsibility of owning a gun you're signing up to ensure it doesn't harm someone else. Accidents happen, but negligence of safe storage that causes harm or death should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I'm sorry but if you have a gun in your home and your small child finds it and shoots him/herself, you should absolutely go to jail.

Same with not knowing your gun is stolen. If you are signing up for the responsibility of owning a gun you should be able to keep track of its location. If you don't report it stolen and it's used in the commission of a crime you should be charged for your negligence.

As mentioned, I'm fine with people having guns. But I think it should come with a ****load of responsibility and punished accordingly.

---

In theory this all sounds great. But details matter. How will this be enforced? How long does an owner have to report a gun missing? Do they need to check on them every day? What about guns stored outside the home in storage or at a range? What happens if they are on vacation? What passes as safe storage? How to you determine it hasn't been stored correctly? Do these requirements impose costs that effectively bar the poor from gun ownership (something that has caused many laws in several areas to be overturned in court).

Not up to me to decide since I'm not an elected official. Speaking as a citizen, I don't think it's an undo burden on you to check on your gun and ensure it's still in your possession once a day. If someone thinks it's too much to ask that they are aware of where their gun is, maybe they're not mature enough to own it? Responsibility has to start somewhere.

Regarding safe storage. I don't think it's up to me or an elected official to mandate where a gun should be stored. However, if the gun is used by a child to kill themselves or someone else, the owner of the gun should absolutely be penalized to the full extent of the law for not securing it somewhere inaccessible to someone who is not the owner of the gun. Again, people should take responsibility if they're going to buy a gun and ensure that it's not accessible to others.

statefan91 said:

---

Not up to me to decide since I'm not an elected official. Speaking as a citizen, I don't think it's an undo burden on you to check on your gun and ensure it's still in your possession once a day. If someone thinks it's too much to ask that they are aware of where their gun is, maybe they're not mature enough to own it? Responsibility has to start somewhere.

Regarding safe storage. I don't think it's up to me or an elected official to mandate where a gun should be stored. However, if the gun is used by a child to kill themselves or someone else, the owner of the gun should absolutely be penalized to the full extent of the law for not securing it somewhere inaccessible to someone who is not the owner of the gun. Again, people should take responsibility if they're going to buy a gun and ensure that it's not accessible to others.

---

So if I'm at work and someone breaks into my house and steals a gun, then goes and holds up the local 7/11, I should be charged with a crime?

....no....it was stolen. But you damn well better report that it was stolen when you check to ensure you still have possession of your firearm.

Are you saying that a child finding an unsecured gun and shooting someone is the same as someone breaking in and forcibly stealing your gun and committing a crime with it?

Every day? That's not remotely realistic. People travel, are they going to be forced to bring their gun locker with them? That's even more dangerous then leaving them at home.