NC State RHP Jacob Dudan Out For Season

kmb717 said:

---

Jtilley said:

---

kmb717 said:

---

Wolfpokes92 said:

---

But pitch count doesn't matter!

---

They pretty much don't. Pitchers get hurt. Especially high velocity, slider heavy ones. Anyone blaming the staff just wants to be mad.

---

Eh not sure I agree with that. Yes throwing hard and throwing more breaking balls is harder on the arm but even worse when you're doing it 110 times a game.

There's a reason no major league pitcher throws over 100 pitches anymore. Big time investment with high risk low reward.

Hope he bounces back and I hope he had some kind of insurance policy because he just lost a lot of money. Blame who you want but I'm sure he will look back on it and say he probably should have done it differently.

---

And even with those pitch counts, dozens of major leaguers get Tommy John every year. I'd be shocked if Skenes doesn't tear his UCL within the next 5 years regardless of what the Pirates do with him.

---

A lot of it is cumulative. You have ten year olds playing 60-80 games which is way too much. Good players play that much or more every year up until they go to college. Again too much baseball. You have kids throwing breaking balls at a very early age which puts additional stress on the arm. In my opinion they shouldn't even attempt a curve ball until 14-15 years old and then very limited. During that time they are growing and their arms are not developed to handle more strain. Now they are throwing sliders earlier and earlier because it's a devastating pitch when thrown right. It's also very devastating on the arm, but here we are.

Nolan Ryan was throwing 100 mph when he was in his mid 40's. I don't believe he ever messed with a slider. Clemens was throwing upper 90's his whole career but did not mess with the slider but instead had the split finger. Greg Maddux knew how to pitch with location and change of speed. No particular arm problems that I am aware of. The whole system is designed for power arms and power pitches, and unfortunately that leads to arm problems and lots of TJ surgeries.

I feel bad for Jacob. He is not the only one it has happened to and there will be many more until the system changes. Unfortunately for a lot of young kids, their well being is not a top priority.

There is my rant and yes I am old, but there was a time when pitching was an art and not just a power play.

Dudan will be fine - just going to cost him some money and sets his development back a year. Long term will have this behind him and has the same chance to climb the ladder at the end of the day.

DrummerboyWolf said:

---

kmb717 said:

---

Jtilley said:

---

kmb717 said:

---

Wolfpokes92 said:

---

But pitch count doesn't matter!

---

They pretty much don't. Pitchers get hurt. Especially high velocity, slider heavy ones. Anyone blaming the staff just wants to be mad.

---

Eh not sure I agree with that. Yes throwing hard and throwing more breaking balls is harder on the arm but even worse when you're doing it 110 times a game.

There's a reason no major league pitcher throws over 100 pitches anymore. Big time investment with high risk low reward.

Hope he bounces back and I hope he had some kind of insurance policy because he just lost a lot of money. Blame who you want but I'm sure he will look back on it and say he probably should have done it differently.

---

And even with those pitch counts, dozens of major leaguers get Tommy John every year. I'd be shocked if Skenes doesn't tear his UCL within the next 5 years regardless of what the Pirates do with him.

---

A lot of it is cumulative. You have ten year olds playing 60-80 games which is way too much. Good players play that much or more every year up until they go to college. Again too much baseball. You have kids throwing breaking balls at a very early age which puts additional stress on the arm. In my opinion they shouldn't even attempt a curve ball until 14-15 years old and then very limited. During that time they are growing and their arms are not developed to handle more strain. Now they are throwing sliders earlier and earlier because it's a devastating pitch when thrown right. It's also very devastating on the arm, but here we are.

Nolan Ryan was throwing 100 mph when he was in his mid 40's. I don't believe he ever messed with a slider. Clemens was throwing upper 90's his whole career but did not mess with the slider but instead had the split finger. Greg Maddux knew how to pitch with location and change of speed. No particular arm problems that I am aware of. The whole system is designed for power arms and power pitches, and unfortunately that leads to arm problems and lots of TJ surgeries.

I feel bad for Jacob. He is not the only one it has happened to and there will be many more until the system changes. Unfortunately for a lot of young kids, their well being is not a top priority.

There is my rant and yes I am old, but there was a time when pitching was an art and not just a power play.

---

Very late to this but what's wild to me is thinking of power arms from the 90's and how little those guys had arm injuries. Maybe I'm just getting old but I don't ever remember Clemons, Pedro, Schilling, Randy etc getting hurt and they were throwing high 90's as well, and a few of them throwing splitters, which you never see anymore because it's supposedly so hard on the arm.

Jtilley said:

---

DrummerboyWolf said:

---

kmb717 said:

---

Jtilley said:

---

kmb717 said:

---

Wolfpokes92 said:

---

But pitch count doesn't matter!

---

They pretty much don't. Pitchers get hurt. Especially high velocity, slider heavy ones. Anyone blaming the staff just wants to be mad.

---

Eh not sure I agree with that. Yes throwing hard and throwing more breaking balls is harder on the arm but even worse when you're doing it 110 times a game.

There's a reason no major league pitcher throws over 100 pitches anymore. Big time investment with high risk low reward.

Hope he bounces back and I hope he had some kind of insurance policy because he just lost a lot of money. Blame who you want but I'm sure he will look back on it and say he probably should have done it differently.

---

And even with those pitch counts, dozens of major leaguers get Tommy John every year. I'd be shocked if Skenes doesn't tear his UCL within the next 5 years regardless of what the Pirates do with him.

---

A lot of it is cumulative. You have ten year olds playing 60-80 games which is way too much. Good players play that much or more every year up until they go to college. Again too much baseball. You have kids throwing breaking balls at a very early age which puts additional stress on the arm. In my opinion they shouldn't even attempt a curve ball until 14-15 years old and then very limited. During that time they are growing and their arms are not developed to handle more strain. Now they are throwing sliders earlier and earlier because it's a devastating pitch when thrown right. It's also very devastating on the arm, but here we are.

Nolan Ryan was throwing 100 mph when he was in his mid 40's. I don't believe he ever messed with a slider. Clemens was throwing upper 90's his whole career but did not mess with the slider but instead had the split finger. Greg Maddux knew how to pitch with location and change of speed. No particular arm problems that I am aware of. The whole system is designed for power arms and power pitches, and unfortunately that leads to arm problems and lots of TJ surgeries.

I feel bad for Jacob. He is not the only one it has happened to and there will be many more until the system changes. Unfortunately for a lot of young kids, their well being is not a top priority.

There is my rant and yes I am old, but there was a time when pitching was an art and not just a power play.

---

Very late to this but what's wild to me is thinking of power arms from the 90's and how little those guys had arm injuries. Maybe I'm just getting old but I don't ever remember Clemons, Pedro, Schilling, Randy etc getting hurt and they were throwing high 90's as well, and a few of them throwing splitters, which you never see anymore because it's supposedly so hard on the arm.

---

Chasing high to mid 90s along with also chasing spin rate.

Genetics and arm angel play a huge role into arm injuries

Kids are doing a lot more with their spin at age 14-15

There are so many studies on pitch counts and recovery and throwing curves/sliders/cutters. There is NO concrete results except every arm is different and every arm has a different set of genetics.

Recovery is definitely important

Baseball has become a year round game essentially. In my opinion that is the biggest difference from the 90s. Back then you played baseball in the summer growing up and then picked up basketball or football. There was no year round play back then. Not to mention we now have everyone doing lessons all year. There is just so much throwing from young age now that it leads to overuse. You have the best arms throwing 100 innings a year from the time they are 9 years old.

ICW Wolf said:

---

Baseball has become a year round game essentially. In my opinion that is the biggest difference from the 90s. Back then you played baseball in the summer growing up and then picked up basketball or football. There was no year round play back then. Not to mention we now have everyone doing lessons all year. There is just so much throwing from young age now that it leads to overuse. You have the best arms throwing 100 innings a year from the time they are 9 years old.

---

Absolutely agree.

Velocity as a whole is way up, guys are throwing sliders more than ever. Everything now is max effort, we have pitching labs, and high definition cameras focused on capturing every movement of the body and ball in an effort to squeeze the absolute most out of what the human body can do.

I also think the stigma around Tommy John surgery has changed. Before if a guy got Tommy John you wondered if he would ever be able to come back from it, it was almost career ending.

Now I have heard pro teams would almost rather guys go ahead get it out of the way while they are in the minors/college

ICW Wolf said:

---

Baseball has become a year round game essentially. In my opinion that is the biggest difference from the 90s. Back then you played baseball in the summer growing up and then picked up basketball or football. There was no year round play back then. Not to mention we now have everyone doing lessons all year. There is just so much throwing from young age now that it leads to overuse. You have the best arms throwing 100 innings a year from the time they are 9 years old.

---

100% correct and this had been going on for a while. When my son was playing N. Wake ball years ago, we went to a winter clinic and the scout from the Boston Red Sox actually came to speak with the boys. Basically said the same thing. Kids are playing year round, going to numerous showcases, private coaching etc. He said "the coaches don't won't me to say this, but he thought they shouldn't be doing that and to play other sports." Said he was seeing a lot of early burnout and of course injuries. Went on to say that the two top guys on his board that year was one kid who was the prototypical showcase kid. Trained year round, had all the metrics and physical tools. The other kid was from rural GA, a pitcher. Played whatever sport was in season, didn't go to showcases, etc, was tall and lanky and not blowing you away athletically , but had command of 3 pitches and more importantly had a high baseball IQ and a general love for the game. He said his money was on that kid to have a long future, if he decided to play baseball.

PGAWolf said:

---

ICW Wolf said:

---

Baseball has become a year round game essentially. In my opinion that is the biggest difference from the 90s. Back then you played baseball in the summer growing up and then picked up basketball or football. There was no year round play back then. Not to mention we now have everyone doing lessons all year. There is just so much throwing from young age now that it leads to overuse. You have the best arms throwing 100 innings a year from the time they are 9 years old.

---

Absolutely agree.

Velocity as a whole is way up, guys are throwing sliders more than ever. Everything now is max effort, we have pitching labs, and high definition cameras focused on capturing every movement of the body and ball in an effort to squeeze the absolute most out of what the human body can do.

I also think the stigma around Tommy John surgery has changed. Before if a guy got Tommy John you wondered if he would ever be able to come back from it, it was almost career ending.

Now I have heard pro teams would almost rather guys go ahead get it out of the way while they are in the minors/college

---

It's not innings, pitches are what matter. Little League with no pitch count ruined arms back in the 60's and 70's, too. 120-130 pitches in a playoff game and pitching again on one day rest was within the rules in Little League in the 2000's. Max effort pitching puts a strain on young arms. The radar gun is a bad thing, too. All the better players are competitive. Coaches are responsible for controlling that. Form and learning to pitch to location are much more important. But some of the coaches in travel ball are win at all cost. Coaches and rules are the biggest culprit here.

I wonder about our pitching instruction, too. We have had 3 arm injuries that I know of this season. Dudan, Marohn, and Smith ( incoming freshman who had TJ in February). Are we working on correct form or teaching something wrong? Who knows. But 3 in one season is a lot.

PGAWolf said:

---

ICW Wolf said:

---

Baseball has become a year round game essentially. In my opinion that is the biggest difference from the 90s. Back then you played baseball in the summer growing up and then picked up basketball or football. There was no year round play back then. Not to mention we now have everyone doing lessons all year. There is just so much throwing from young age now that it leads to overuse. You have the best arms throwing 100 innings a year from the time they are 9 years old.

---

Absolutely agree.

Velocity as a whole is way up, guys are throwing sliders more than ever. Everything now is max effort, we have pitching labs, and high definition cameras focused on capturing every movement of the body and ball in an effort to squeeze the absolute most out of what the human body can do.

I also think the stigma around Tommy John surgery has changed. Before if a guy got Tommy John you wondered if he would ever be able to come back from it, it was almost career ending.

Now I have heard pro teams would almost rather guys go ahead get it out of the way while they are in the minors/college

---

Agree

I played damn near year round baseball in the early to mid 90s

I played fall ball with a couple different teams, one was a wooden bat league.

I played a HS season then went right into Legion ball and more wooden bat stuff and picked up some games with a "travel" team or two, although we didn't travel very far. lol

Of course this was before travel ball was a big deal and not everyone was playing on travel teams or in the wooden bat leagues. You had to be "invited" and couldn't buy your way on a team like most kids now.

Guys like Brian Roberts, Brent Butler and some of the other big time NC kids were playing "travel" ball with teams like the Ohio Warhawks and there was a group out of Greensboro that played around the country as well. East Cobb was a thing then too pumping out talent and still is today along with the Warhawks.