This topic has been buried in other threads and thought it deserved its own thread. I don't understand how anyone can think it is acceptable to have biological males competing in girls and women's sports. But this new administration thinks it's OK.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rand-paul-in-tense-exchange-presses-bidens-education-department-nominee-on-transgender-student-athletes

Do girls/women not have the right to compete on an even playing field?

Interesting website on that GIF

BBW12OG said:

---

Party of Science..........

---

Sounds about right....because biological girls/women are equivalent to biological males that identify as women. Biden science.

Civilized said:

---

BBW12OG said:

---

Party of Science..........

---

Sex ambiguity abounds in mammals so yeah, I think science is on the side of the trans community.

Biology dictates XX or XY, XX's that produce sperm, XY's with ovaries, XXY, XYY, Y, X, XX with translocation, or XY with deletion or Androgen Insensitivity. None of that has anything to do with "identity" and it is very clearly a spectrum, not binary male or female. We create the problem by trying to divide up a wide and varied spectrum into either/or for convenience. So yeah, science.

I do not know how to adjudicate trans women playing sports. It's messy.

Fortunately the issue impacts less than 1/10th of 1% of athletes. It's a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction.

We put Americans on the moon over 50 years ago. I'm confident we can figure this out.

---

That's some sick thinking right there...

pineknollshoresking said:

---

Civilized said:

---

BBW12OG said:

---

Party of Science..........

---

Sex ambiguity abounds in mammals so yeah, I think science is on the side of the trans community.

Biology dictates XX or XY, XX's that produce sperm, XY's with ovaries, XXY, XYY, Y, X, XX with translocation, or XY with deletion or Androgen Insensitivity. None of that has anything to do with "identity" and it is very clearly a spectrum, not binary male or female. We create the problem by trying to divide up a wide and varied spectrum into either/or for convenience. So yeah, science.

I do not know how to adjudicate trans women playing sports. It's messy.

Fortunately the issue impacts less than 1/10th of 1% of athletes. It's a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction.

We put Americans on the moon over 50 years ago. I'm confident we can figure this out.

---

That's some sick thinking right there...

---

Yep, I flagged it since it contained misinformation

Civilized said:

---

packgrad said:

---

It's not difficult to adjudicate at all. They shouldn't be able to do it. We wouldn't let an 18 year old male with a brain injury compete and dominate 10 year old boys in wrestling. We wouldn't give a minority scholarship to a white person that identifies as a black person (well, not intentionally at least. Shaun King and Rachel Dolezal might disagree).

It's anti woman. Why not just stop women's sports if we're going to allow trans women to compete? Science tells us it's not a level playing field. Eliminate Title IX for sports. Eliminate men's and women's teams and just have teams. If the women and trans women are good enough, they'll be on the team.

The true answer to how to adjudicate the issue is to have trans women compete in men's sports or create their own division. Competing with women is not fair and is anti woman.

---

This issue is a lot like mail-in balloting being prone to massive electoral fraud. Histrionics about an extraordinarily rare occurrence.

The actual incidence rate of this causing problems is so low as to be trivial, and likely possible to handle on a case by case basis. I guarantee you there will not be a sudden influx of wig-wearing, pipe-tucking, armpit-shaving, bra padding, 5-foot-nothing men suddenly dominating women's Olympic gymnastics.

---

If it's not a big enough issue for you to talk about, please skip the thread. You don't have to protect the "protected classes" in every thread, even if it's a non issue to you. There has been plenty of evidence of it happening. Not enough for you though obviously.

packgrad said:

---

You don't have to protect the "protected classes" in every thread, even if it's a non issue to you. There has been plenty of evidence of it happening. Not enough for you though obviously.

---

You don't have to stigmatize the protected classes in every thread, even if their challenges are a non issue to you. Fair statement?

Me and you definitely have different definitions of "plenty" for sure.

There's definitely "plenty" of social stigma and suiciding of trans people. Reducing a real problem with high incidence rate and life or death stakes is more important to me than trying to eliminate an extremely rare problem with much lower stakes.

If dudes start wearing wigs and dominating girls sports then I'm confident we can adjust.

Civilized said:

---

packgrad said:

---

You don't have to protect the "protected classes" in every thread, even if it's a non issue to you. There has been plenty of evidence of it happening. Not enough for you though obviously.

---

You don't have to stigmatize the protected classes in every thread, even if their challenges are a non issue to you. Fair statement?

Me and you definitely have different definitions of "plenty" for sure.

There's definitely "plenty" of social stigma and suiciding of trans people. Reducing a real problem with high incidence rate and life or death stakes is more important to me than trying to eliminate an extremely rare problem with much lower stakes.

If dudes start wearing wigs and dominating girls sports then I'm confident we can adjust.

---

It's not stigmatizing trans women to say they don't belong in women's sports. Fair statement?

You think allowing trans women to dominate women's sports is going to improve their suicidal tendencies. Lol. That's just stupid and a weak attempt to deflect from the conversation. The vast majority of transgender people certainly have mental illness, but that doesn't justify allowing trans women to dominate women in sports because they're genetically bigger and stronger.

For someone who can't adjudicate the issue you certainly have a strong opinion about it. Sounds like your definition of plenty and adjudication are both things we disagree on.

It also delegitimizes your sincerity of the trans plight to say it will matter when they start wearing wigs. Is that all they are to you? Dudes in wigs? Or it only matters when non trans guys wear wigs to beat girls in sports?

Women's sports are for women. Not trans women. And not dudes in wigs. Simple enough.

Adjudicated.

Civilized said:

---

packgrad said:

---

You don't have to protect the "protected classes" in every thread, even if it's a non issue to you. There has been plenty of evidence of it happening. Not enough for you though obviously.

---

You don't have to stigmatize the protected classes in every thread, even if their challenges are a non issue to you. Fair statement?

Me and you definitely have different definitions of "plenty" for sure.

There's definitely "plenty" of social stigma and suiciding of trans people. Reducing a real problem with high incidence rate and life or death stakes is more important to me than trying to eliminate an extremely rare problem with much lower stakes.

If dudes start wearing wigs and dominating girls sports then I'm confident we can adjust.

---

Typical SOCIALIST PARTY response.

If it doesn't directly affect me then I don't care and I can push my leftist agenda on the peasants.

Let me ask you this. Let's say you have a daughter who has worked her entire 17 years to be a track star. Got up every morning and ran 4-5 miles. She gets to the State Championships. She loses to a guy indentifying as a girl. She loses a scholarship to a D1 school because of it.

Do you care now? Probably not because you and your ilk only care about owning the Conservatives.

Party before country right Comrade?

I don't believe that men should be able to compete in women's sports. If we are going to allow that then we should get rid of title nine completely and just let the best person make the team the whole way around.

The men participating against women have a huge advantage.

One story in particular that sticks out to me is in Conn. where you had two men running against the women in track and field. Someone had mentioned that it only impacts less than 1%, but I don't believe that's true. In this case men finished first and second in every event that they participated in against the women all the way through the state championships. This impacted everyone who was running in the entire state. One of them also broke several state records along the way. Originally both of these men participated in men's sports, where they weren't even close enough to win their own conferences, much less anything on a state level.
https://www.gametimect.com/jeff-jacobs-as-records-fall-at-girls-state-open-track-debate-rages-over-transgender-issue/

The other one that sticks out to me is the man that plays women's rugby. i figured a picture here would be good enough to get my point across:




EDIT: No pictures i guess....here is the article
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/sep/03/afls-trans-participation-policy-sets-a-dangerous-precedent-for-women

IseWolf22 said:

---

Civilized said:

---

I do not know how to adjudicate trans women playing sports. It's messy.

Fortunately the issue impacts less than 1/10th of 1% of athletes. It's a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction.

We put Americans on the moon over 50 years ago. I'm confident we can figure this out.

---

There's no way to handle it without a 3rd category - "Other".
1. Males, but anyone can compete here as their is no advantage you get being female or trans
2. Females, strictly biological
3. Other, for trans athletes, non- binary, and maybe even people with hormonal disorders

Unfortunately, even though it's a tiny percentage of person affected, it has massive implications on sports at the highest level. Trans women are setting world records in women's weightlifting that may not be possible by biological females. In sprinting, an "decent" biological male will completely outclass the best women. In professional fighting, there's have been some pretty bad injuries with trans women absolutely destroying their biological female opponents.

Nothing about sports competition is a "right." We can have different solutions for sports compared to things like employment and housing discrimination.

---

Sure, all reasonable and likely the direction this heads.

I'm also comfortable with this solution being more nuanced than "you're either man or woman, either you can play with women or you can't" crowd.

At the highest levels of sport, records matter. Careers are made or broken. Fortunes are made or lost. Endorsements are signed. In combat sports, people can get badly injured. All of it.

Elite sports requires a different solution than the 20-odd-million kids that play sports recreationally in this country. Elite sports are also a tiny fraction of the people that participate in sports in this country. The funnel is massive on one end and tiny on the other.

Recreational youth and adolescent sports are not harmed by implementing thoughtful, inclusive pro-trans policies. With some effort, we can all experience the benefits of inclusive youth and adolescent sports while mitigating undesirable outcomes on the extreme end. The older the athlete and the more competitive the situation, the more nuanced the solution has to become.

I maintain this is just like mail-in election fraud though where the perceived incidence rate of the problem positively dwarfs the actual incidence rate. Humans are bad at modulating their anxieties to track well with true risks of negative outcomes.

More to the point, it's almost exactly like HB2. Some people can't help but feel that by allowing trans people to use the bathroom of their identity, we're going to have a run on wig-wearing dudes in women's restrooms faking being trans to maliciously take advantage of women and little girls. It ain't happening, and neither will wig-wearing dudes entering women's events on scale.

There will be some nuances to iron out depending on the age, level of competition, and sport.